Bitcoin Forum

So here it is...

SC 50GH/s 2499$ from now on...

Will not affect pre-order so far...  But do affect all new orders.

Wouldn't be so bad if delivery were guaranteed and shipping immediate, though.

"Price gouging" is fine in a true market, free from external manipulation/state intervention.

Not only is the price up, but the performance is down !

source?

Will they send me 1 unit @ 50Gh/s and 2X 5Gh/s since I paid for 60Gh/s?

Maybe I'm too optimistic on that one :P

https://products.butterflylabs.com/

Thats the plan. They promised shipping the hashrate to all pre-orders.

Why weren't you saying this about Avalon? They want 75 BTC ($9700+ USD) for their 64GH/s machine and 88 BTC ($11,440) for their 86+GH/s machines.

Yes, however, their ASIC are made.  Their entry cost are made.  So, from now on, producing more ASIC is dirt cheap.  I just don't like the fact that they upgrade prices without notice.  A simple "You get discount if you pre-order" would have been the least.

I do have pre-order 1 SC, but I'm starting to wonder if there's some bad faith at BFL.  I will get the guaranteed 60GH/s, although from their latest tweets, they seem to have big power problem.  So they will probably ship me (and other who pre-ordered) 2 boards at 30GH/s.  So let's see if people find a way to overclock.  Will all 8 cores be populated at lower speed, or full speed on 4 chips populated.  Well, time (hopefully) will tell.

http://butterflylabs.com/
https://twitter.com/BFL_News

Avalon's delivered hardware.

Avalon have actually shipped products into enduser hands, therein lies the difference.

Nothing about power consumption on the site, but they have a new estimated shipping date  ;) And all sales are FINAL !

"Pre-order Terms: Bitforce SC (ASIC) products are in final stage development with initial shipping scheduled for the last half of April 2013. Products are shipped according to placement in the order queue, and delivery may take 2 months or more after order. All sales are final"

Follow the Twitter feed...
https://twitter.com/BFL_News
 :)

I'm going to hold my tongue till units ship but honestly you guys make no sense. If/When BFL delivers; will you guys own up to the fact that those who paid 75 BTC for a 60gh/s unit were fleeced?

I love how BFL is doing everything that Team Avalon is doing...


Except you know, actually shipping a product.

My guess is BFL wants to actively discourage new orders due to their supply problems and chip issues. By raising the price and lowering performance, some people will still be interested and place orders bringing in much needed revenue, but they can avoid a huge flood of orders once they start shipping (that they probably can't fill in a timely manner)

A BFL shipment is far away. What they currently showed is nothing they can deliver. Not even with only 25Gh/s and only 150W. How do you want to cool the chips on this small board with their current cooling solution? Do you think they plan to deliver a water/cryogenic cooling with their devices?

This +1  :D

BFL and Avalon are just following supply and demand

supply of ASIC devices is near zero at the moment
demand for miners is high since BTC are now > $100 USD and there are only 2 games in town, Avalon and BFL (or buying shares in asicminer)

how much it actually costs to make has almost no impact on price. At some point in the future, the supply of Avalons and SCs will be higher and prices will come down.

i hop they find a solution im looking forward to buying 1 or 2 minis

Hahahaha true that!

My guess.... they technically can't deliver a MiniRig with all the problems they have.... just not feasible

Can someone please stop this scammers!

It still says "order now". Should be "pre order now". Or "pre order now - ships in Dezember 2013".

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/k9l5-1i-d82c.jpg

Minirig "out of stock". LOL!!! So many buyers for an empty Box with Fans?  ;)

What are they going to do with all those Mini Rigs Boxes with Fans? Refurbish? Devices to cool down all the hot air from Loudmouth Josh Zerlan / BFL?


http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/big/k9l5-1j-a684.jpg

Fleeced, lol.  Your funny.  They will ROI and once that happens it doesn't matter.   Funny economics going on around here.

What boat?

Well,
Avalon showed that PPL will pay crazy sums for those machines. So why not ?

Well they cant show a product yet, but maybe this keeps some of the crazies away that preorder a yalapeno and think they'll get insta-rich with that. Hope they wont ship before July (even with preorders there).

Cheers

Dude,
BFL is a joke so do not compare them with Avalon.  
Please
 
Supply ? What is BFL supplying actually and raising the prices on top? I can supply fancy video also. Mine would be  better than BFL's one.Please send me at least 2K x 1000000 times :D
 
Their current behavior is ridiculous for me. Probably this is their last card to play (to win some bump time or whatever next excuse is) before massive wave of refund will put them in history where they belong
 

BFL must have profited more than 2-3 million $ during this period all the time mining and raising difficulty and what it is giving is 90% rate hike. WTF  BFL

I created a thread with this same topic and the mods deleted it, meanwhile there are lots of other threads complaining about BFL.

They can fill them with all those trade in FPGA Singles. Someone will still buy a 25Gh/s FPGA Mini Rig if it's "in stock".

The BTC 75 ($10,000 today) boat.  ;)

The least they could do is accept only BTC payment, like Avalon, and provide demand for Bitcoins.

I have a Jalapeno pre-order that BFL promised to upgrade 3 weeks ago into a Single. I wonder if they delayed upgrades on purpose knowing that they are going to have a price change, and instead telling us that the new "upgrade order system" is being installed. I'm certain that now they will ask upgrade orders to pay the new price instead of the old price.

My guess is that they're desperate to prevent paid orders from being cancelled to stave off bankruptcy. Telling people that "all orders are final" is cute drama, but illegal in the US for a pre-order product.

All of this comes on the heels of ASICMiner announcing their own hardware sales plans. The current market trajectory will result in another insolvent US ASIC mining hardware vaporware vendor. The two Chinese companies are cleaning their clocks.

I said supply is near zero... there are no devices... But people are still buying them, thus the demand. You may think it is a joke, but you're not the one giving them more money (and neither am I).

It doesn't matter what you think, people are still giving them money and they have do not enough devices to ship (because they have no devices to ship). Of course they're going to raise the prices.

Avalon and BFL are in the same boat: people keep wanting to buy them, but neither have enough to ship to fulfil all the demand - so raise the prices. Avalon has a few hundred to ship and BFL has zero, but it works out the same in the end - raise prices.

That's the new Little Single. 1 chip per motherboard. 1 fan per motherboard. Just wait until you see the Big Single.

Outrageous.  "We haven't made a single one, but go ahead and pay us double and we'll deliver just as many!"  ::)

Uhh.... are you going to  admit BFL buyers who paid 200 BTC for a single that still doesn't exist were fleeced?

God damn liars!  I guess my discount voucher is about as useful as my preorder  >:(

"all sales are final"

does that mean they don't give refunds now?

I believe that is what they mean Yifu.

However according to creativx, what they are now doing is an illegal manouvre? Im unsure on the legality of this statement as I live outside the states.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/alt051-selling-internet-prompt-delivery-rules

BFL is a US company. They cannot enact that policy and comply with FTC/SEC regs. I believe they're just posturing to stave off insolvency.

Thanks for the link creativex

Excerpt from:

"If you can't ship within the promised time (or within 30 days if you made no promise), you must notify the customer of the delay, provide a revised shipment date and explain his right to cancel and get a full and prompt refund.

For definite delays of up to 30 days, you may treat the customer's silence as agreeing to the delay. But for longer or indefinite delays - and second and subsequent delays - you must get the customer's written, electronic or verbal consent to the delay. If the customer doesn't give you his okay, you must promptly refund all the money the customer paid you without being asked by the customer."

Come on BFL...

So it is clear this is not pre-order any more. Team avalon has started the price lifting trend with a 4X increase in price, BFL is doing reasonably ok... I heard that the latest BFL order numbers have passed 32000

Even 75000 chips of 8GH delivered and total network hashing power rised to 1PH, 3 months ROI is still possible with current BTC exchange price

Wow, complete BS. what happened to upgrade order option?  I haven't place mine as I'm already on the hook for enough money with them and their incompetence.

Must be everyone with a trade in has received their notification to send in their FPGAs for sure then. No? Hmmm...

Avalon has shipped and Avalon will continue shipping. THEY have pricing power...BFL not so much.

Yes, the official upgrade deadline was June 1. This was what was stated on the BFL forums and by josh here. Are we still able to upgrade to a 60gh single for 649 with a fpga single trade?

@Dalkore and EntropyUC:

Hind sight is 20/20 and to a certain extent I agree with you regarding paying in BTC for ANY device; the lesson learned should be that buyers need to balance their risk when using BTC to purchase mining equipment. Not many people could have predicted that BTC would have risen to more than 10 (20 in some cases) the amount they originally paid. Was I fleeced? This remains to be seen as you have correctly stated that I do not yet have any hashing units. If I don't get my units in the next 2 - 3 months; then you are absolutely correct in stating that I fleeced and will likely be kicking myself in the ass for not just sitting on my coins.

And you'll only have 60 days to use it. You'll basically be paying double what you expected for a lower powered unit - what a wonderful "compensation" plan.  They could at least let those with discount vouchers purchase at the old price (100% of $1299 is better than 75% of $2500).

This +10000000

WTF?

You know - it seems to me that a blinding flash of the obvious may have escaped many....

Assume BFL actually BELIEVES in BTC and, sold many of their products for BTC and converted a some proportion of their pre-order fiat funds received into BTC.

The result is that they are sitting on a massive pile of equity THAT THEY OWN.

Yes, they have a stated liability for every order received on their balance sheet (denominated in USD.) If they did this they are very well capitalized to meet the commitments to their liabilities. Possibly by an order of magnitude. In this scenario they could refund all the money and walk away with BTC gain and be rich by any common measure. They do not owe anyone the BTC they paid for their order and could certainly opt to pay them back in USD.

Do the math - BFL in all likelihood has massive non operational currency gains. The actual ratios of BTC vs fiat purchases and whether they converted anything from Fiat into BTC is speculation.... they would have to have seriously fucked up to not have experienced major gains.

Disclosure: I have orders pending with BFL

Sorry, I agree with much of what you say but you have gone too far.   BFL "cannot" do that because it against the law?
Seriously?   Sonny stole money from retirees selling them fake lottery tickets.
Josh/Inaba CONSTANTLY was illegally soliciting investors and using his own name (that is an SEC securities solicitation violation).   Josh has been hosting a co-loc of bit coin miners for non USA residents that do not pay USA income tax and would each have to form a business to be legal (that is money laundering).   Josh tells people that they can "leave their rigs in MO/KS" and save the tax of their country but DOES not charge them state sales/use tax (that is fraud).   He does this all over public forms and does not care about the law.  Why would he care about the rule you linked?
  Nasser works for a broker dealer that has rule against ANY employees engaging in an outside business without submitting a form for compliance to approve (which they NEVER approve especially if it has ANYTHING to do with f/x, commodities, debt or securities.
And you think so "law" is going to stop these guys?  They have broken so many laws constantly for the last 12 months.   They do not care about any laws because they KNOW the suckers that live in their parents' basements that they have stolen this money from them WILL DO NOTHING.

BFL and Avalon are plain greedy it's s shame there is no other competition to keep them honest

What are you guys talking about?  Entropy wrote about this months ago and Josh flamed him.   You guys did not have google in march to see who was telling the truth?

Perhaps. Everyone has a breaking point. I'm sure there's a reason why BFL keeps making their "all sales are final" policy public and then honoring refund requests anyway. If I had to guess it's because they like deterring refund requests(because that's how pyramid scams breakdown) without further violating FTC/consumer protection laws.

I agree though, they're crooks.

Lumping Avalon in with BFL crooks is very not kewl. Avalon's product has pricing power because Avalon actually has a product. We've all seen the eBay sales with undelivered Avalons going for many times what their manufacturer sold them for. I'd raise my prices too if I was building something and shipping it to someone who'd already sold it for 10x what I sold it to them for.

If Asicminer start selling their products at least there will be a viable alternative to Avalon

didnt you hear, BFL shipped already?

Exactly, I do not know where these people get their news from.   They shipped days ago.   And, seemingly, they have actually sold out on the MiniRig they shipped so many.

Is there a thread for this?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.2960;topicseen

I think BFL's price is justified if they can start shipping. I would take this rise in prices as a good sign to BFL pre-order customers... they wouldn't raise the prices unless they were planning on shipping soon IMO. I got off the BFL sinking ship a long time ago, but at the end of the day I want to see them succeed (as long as it's 1 month after batch 3 Avalon's ship. ;))

If Avalon delivers batch 3 in a month like they said they will, then I think Avalon Batch 3 customers will have 1-2 month ROI easy. They mentioned they were buying a new SMT line, so that should increase production capacity too. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=162677.msg1711122#msg1711122)

All BFL has at the end of the day are prototypes though. It sounds like they have complicated issues left to work out. I saw Josh insisted it wouldn't take them 1.2 months longer like BitSyncom suggested it might. I guess we will see.. I personally trust BitSyncom more than Josh.

This is actually quite smart on BFL's behalf.  When they ship units that produce less hashes and consume more power they can point to the web site and say "look, you're getting a steep discount on the price of a new unit!"  I ordered seven months ago and would be delighted to get anything at this stage.

There's also the little matter of bitcoin's price booming in the last four months so why not raise prices to take advantage of the little money printing machines?

Thanks.  I just found it as well: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=99497.msg1740976#msg1740976

It's not often that vaporware goes out of stock.

These changes point to one of two scenarios IMO.

Scenario 1

BFL now knows what they can and can't do, they are almost ready to ship and the new specs and prices are the obvious result of the current market for ASICs/bitcoins.  This would be wonderful news for BFL customers.

Of course, if you are paying attention to the problems they are having with their current prototypes then this scenario does not seem at all likely.  It's not likely that they yet know how to fix these problems, or even if they can fix them at all.


Scenario 2

BFL is burning through their capital at an alarming rate, their window of opportunity is closing and the supplier/investors/customers are getting restless.  They did this because they are desperate.  They need to stem the flow of refund requests.  They need to bring in more capital ASAP.  They are not a scam in the sense that they are an actual business trying to create actual products, but they are a scam in the sense that they know they now need a miracle but they will continue to mislead current and potential customers because that is their only chance.

Companies in this type of situation do not cut back on advertising and they certainly do not publicly admit that they are in dire straights.  They always claim that everything is normal.  They are praying they can turn cash flow positive before they run out of cash.  Or maybe they already have and the time suppliers/investors say "ENOUGH" and bring down the hammer is approaching.

This seems like a far more likely scenario to me.  BFL has a lot of expenses and a lot of liabilities.  They don't have much time to get their products to market before it is too late, and they probably don't have enough capital left to make good on the promises they have made to existing customers (honoring hashrate specs, etc.)  Besides their many expenses in trying to finish a working product, it's likely that cash is flying out the door in the form of refund requests.  That 1K in BTC they owe to charity is the least of their problems.

For example, the rig they list as "Out of Stock" is clearly just vaporware that they have finally concluded it is impossible for them to produce.  They will have to go to those customers and offer them a choice of a refund or an "equivalent" product(s).  If a bunch of people request $20K refunds, it could be curtains for them.

IMO, the 2nd scenario is far more likley.  I don't see how anyone who has read BFL's recent progress reports can believe that they now have it all figured out.  I realize that this has all been said before and that none of this is new, but I figured I would lay it out anyway because some people still seem to be confused and are assuming this is automatically good news.  

I was thinking the same thing - but then what about this: They did it silently. If I was really in dire straights for money, I'd announce "Last week to buy it at the low price before we raise it to the new price" to get people's money. Raising it silently doesn't do anything besides reduce the number of orders you get, which is the opposite of what a cash strapped company would want.

The silent move makes me feel like they are fine with money and are just trying to find the spot on the demand curve where they can maximize profit. Thoughts?

Hindsight?  I posted that the whole schedule was bullshit the day of the announcement last June.

this is stupid we will be making less so why should we pay more

The problem with BFL is the dishonesty. If they know they have to rethink and rebuild all their boards, order and test new heat syncs, fabricate all new cases... chances are they aren't going to be shipping within 2 weeks. Just be honest with people. What's the point of disappointing people every 2 weeks?

I've reached mine! If I have anything to do with it, nothing is leaving their facility without a UL or FCC tag attached to each unit, specific to each model including any changes. And that's only the beginning.

Because if they didn't lie about their progress, people would pull their pre-orders and BFL would go bankrupt..

Hey good luck with that PG. :) BFL's Chief Bridge Troll ever get back to you on the FCC submission discrepancies? Definitely don't hold your breath. 

This was my biggest beef with being a BFL customer.

"We're shipping October November December January February March April?"

They knew damn well there would be no finished products in October, but they insisted they were shipping each month after that as well. The were pulling in more pre-order monies as time went on, because people thought they were shipping next month every month.

They are running thin on pre-order monies because of the problems in the R&D (which was funded at the very least in part from pre-order monies) + they've been paying who knows what kind of salaries to themselves to live off of. They're wearing thin on money, so they raise prices of order numbers 99999999999999999999999999999999999 and greater. That's the reason for no more refunds. You may receive your ASIC sometime next year. :-[

Do those regulations ever actually get enforced or are they one of those requirements which everyone ignores without consequence?

mostly get enforced by the munis at that building inspection level for UL.   or when a fire inspection happens.   Now if a company ships from a location in a state these units that violate UL, usually state AGs will get involve if the fire under their butt is large enough.     It is like everything in america, bureaucrats do their jobs when they fear being exposed for NOT doing their jobs.   Other than that, they desk hibernate.

Avalon plain greedy ?  

Avalon are anything except greedy !  come on..

They sold batch 1 and 2 and production cost, maybe under.. Before announcing price hikes for batch 3 im pretty sure they were in the red..  No one in the Avalon team are rich.  
It's fine to price batch 3 like they did, for 2 reason;

1 - This investment will return full BTC within 3 month, that's a truly good investment.  Find any investment the recoup under a year..  

2 - The millions aquired by batch 3 will fund for developement and production of Avalon V2, wich will be so great that it will left BFL and/or any real new comer far behind.

Avalon are commited to BTC and mining decentralization, so I'm pretty impressed with their behavior and their values.  Like they said, we must stop thinking in USD/fiat, and get it to the root : BTC.  

They got it, they will fight and would sell their Mom for protecting BTC future.  Mining decentralization are a priotity for them, this is fact, as they limit the number of unit a single person can order.  I truly beleive in Avalon !  

Great job team Avlaon, keep up the good work, the BTC community owe you so much for keeping those good value as priority !

WTFFFFFF

they HAVEN'T EVEN SHIPPED ANYTHING YET AND THEY ALREADY UPPPED THE PRICE AND LOWER THE HASH????

WTF IS THIS!!!!!!!

Its ok son.... you can cry. Shouting will make you look like a pos.

That occurred to me also, hence thinking to keep a fire under them.


https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRLD7fyHqhs7VVQ_M3qIkKZiVqfhTv_JBORWAAp7mlsxuYvCT32dg

Free market in action.

Yeah who cares?  They could set the price at $10,000 each if they wanted like Avalon did.  That doesn't make it a rip off - don't buy it if you think it is.  No one is forcing you to buy ASICs.

They've changed specs on all their vaporware, increased prices big time and yet still have NOTHING. Are they expecting a whole slew of pre-orders with this new line up? Are they running out of money or something. For a company that actually doesn't sell anything is doing quite well I guess. Only in the BTC industry can you sustain a 10+ employee company and actually not have a product or service to sell. I would almost think they are slinging heroin or crack out the back door or something.

This.

I cannot believe that true -- they have the money in the bank- so bank account should be just fine-- ie everyone prepaid  ---anyone wanting to get there money back will need to pay more for a minning rig ---so someone will buy the order to jump the que --- delays are great if you have a minning rig

I don't really know.  It could be because changing the site IMPLIES that they have their shit together without actually having to verbally commit to claiming as much.

Also, by suddenly changing the site it locks the old customers into thinking "well in the end I got a real bargain, I can't back out now".

What do you think about them listing the Mini Rig as "out of stock"?  I can't think of any legitimate reason for them to do that.

They don't want to accept any more mini-rig orders at this stage because shipping multiple other units to make up the 1500 GH is too expensive.

When these issues first arose, they said that they'd ship multiple units to meet promised hash rates on existing orders no matter what it cost them.  They were clearly hoping they'd only have to do that for Batch 1 orders and that they'd have resolved the issues by the time the next 6 wafers rolled out of the fab.  Now it's pretty obvious that these issues aren't going to be quickly resolved, they don't want to have to commit to shipping multiple singles (almost certainly more expensive to BFL than working mini-rig would have been) to achieve the 1500 GH on future mini-rig orders so they need to pull the product until they can resolve the issues.

this cant be the same bfl.. say it isnt soo.. lol

omg, the last fleece before the run to mexico

Yes, I agree with that reasoning. 

But what I meant was, what legitimate reason could they have for continuing to show the product on the site and to list it as "out of stock"?  As you point out, the product does not even exist.

Laziness most likely. Or optimism they might fix their power issues and sell it in the future.

I would guess that they're still hoping to resolve the issues and offer the product.  Having the most powerful Bitcoin mining rig in your product line but out of stock makes you look superior to your competitors who only offer products similar to your low end units.  It's a marketing thing.

I'm kind of surprised that they haven't dropped the jalapeno and that they're still offering the little single.  The jalapeno's going to be pretty much a stillborn product very soon and the BFL wait list shows very few people as having ordered the little single (although that may become their new entry level product with the price rise).

One of the greatest ironies here is that BFL increased their specs to compete with bASIC and bASIC never delivered.  If they'd stuck with their original specs, they could probably have delivered months ago and had plenty of happy customers mining away at 40 GH and waiting to order a gen 2 product which did 50 GH (and happy to pay the new price because they could trade in their gen 1 units).

I will also This this.

hehehehe

The bet didn't stipulate how long the shipped item had to run, so they let Luke's rig burn itself out since it was under warrantee.

This just in: Luke is upgrading his Single to a ? to be diversified.

I cannot believe that I actually have to quote myself here....

Furthermore, it is abundantly clear that this forum, and perhaps the community as a whole has a very narrow technical and personal indignation focus.

Are there ANY business people in this forum? DO YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THE FINANCIAL AND ACCOUNTING IMPLICATIONS of what I have pointed out here????

If what I have said is true, it simply needs to be confirmed by BFL to completely eradicate the massive pile of tolling energy directed at them. Hey, don't get me wrong here - BFL has every appearance of being an operational and PR nightmare. BUT from a balance sheet perspective they could be sitting very pretty on a BTC arbitrage basis. Yes, the community has forfeited their BTC vs USD gain by 'investing' in a BFL preorder - but what is the correlation to a 'real world' rate of return on invested capital. Anyone here remember the "tech bubble"? It is impossible to divorce the flow of capital from the metrics of comparative returns and the underlying fundamentals associated with them. If you think crypto currencies are immune from the effects you are sorely mistaken and your lunch is being served to others, now.

Like it or not you have few choices. If you are a seasoned stock picker you might realize a 20% cash on cash return - if you rely on investment counsel you *should* be happy with 6 - 8%. If you buy and operate a business the ROIC is 35 - 43% on a risk adjusted basis. Am I speaking English here? If this sounds like a foreign language YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR DEPTH. GO BACK TO WOW or whatever gaming chat room or newsfeed you heard about crypto currency in.

WAKE UP BTC community. Big money and interests are taking a very hard look at BTC and crypto currency in general right now. It won't take many billionaires to dominate this market in a hurry. Stop pissing in the pool we all have to swim in.

For what it's worth that unit in BFL recent pics is still going, although with some big dips, and quite a few rejected shares, four days and 4.84BTC, about 3 BTC behind @ 25Gh/s

http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/1CdcYVP4T4hjHwt353pEnGHrigeDLvuvZL

My educated guess this is one of the first working per-production units, once they got 3 full days @ 25GH/s confirmed, pricing and power were adjusted accordingly on their web-site. Before April 1 there were no functional prototypes, hence a baseline for a SC was 30GH/s all this time up till today.

What was the wafer yield again? If I were to guess current 32000+ orders will take anywhere from 6 to 12 months to fill, maybe next year anyone who buys anything now will get something, that is if they start shipping and won't fold the business, pun intended.

Art

Did they ever take BTC directly?

Are you implying that they now speculating  with the preorder money to raise more funds?

1 satoshi says that people will still be posting this even after all the pre orders have been shipped.

That's more likely to be a mining software problem than an ASIC problem.

I'm pretty sure it will stop once there IS confirmation of a working device. Why should it stop until then?

You can count on that. I just don't like spending time on forum reading and debating, while there's no confirmation, and from what I can see they still have many issues to solve. Heck, I'm gonna order as soon as first batch starts shipping.

Is the BFL warranty meaningless since according to them, they are coming out with a new redesigned product and the "lifetime" warranty according to them is only good until the product stops shipping.

Huh ??? confirmation for what? They are shipping already, right? There was a bet for that if they don't ship by now. And the bet wasn't won  ;D ;D

--- Well you are right... anyone who participated in that bet should go ballistic... I would, but i didn't bet... It can't get any clearer than that that...  ::)

I can imagine that they weasel theme-self out of this for preorder customers, especially since they only ordered a prototype board :)?

I didn't placed order and didn't placed a bet.

And I haven't seen yet a confirmation of their product.

What is obvious however is another lie from them, mini rig says 'out of stock', yet it is concluded many times on this forum, that the technology they have theoretically is not enough to produce mini rig. Correct suffix for mini rig on their site should be "Can't make it".

So let me get this straight:

2x BFL Singles is 100GH/s for ~40BTC

1x 4unit Avalon is 85GH/s for ~100BTC.

And the BFL will still use less power, even tho it's not as low as they'd hoped.

Why are you complaining again?

I was going to order the $650 yesterday.

Seriously.

But not having any shipped and reading about their power consumption issues is what held me back.

I think I'm more upset they raised the price than I didn't preorder.

...because BFL has never shipped an ASIC mining product and Avalon has? Because Avalon buyers have actually been given a real shipping date? The time for BFL fanbois to point at other companies and say "hey BFL sucks, but look at them!" has passed. BFL is the only ASIC mining vaporware provider left. ALL of their competitors have either sunk or swum, which is sad really as BFL was the first to announce an ASIC product. Avalon and BFL are not in the same league. One is an ASIC hardware vendor and the other is a vaporware producer that just raised their prices and cancelled products that they never even produced.

Because:

http://t.qkme.me/3tkoiu.jpg

Sorry you just used the definition of fanboi wrong. fanboi would never say the company they are a fanboi of sucks. I havent seen that many fanboi's here, just people who see that BFL is a real company and now has a working asic. Dont think any of these fanboi's as you put it wouldnt want to have been part of avalon's group1 presales. Hell im sure a lot of the people who got group 1 avalons are still in the bfl preoder queue. We are all here to mine, lets stop the us vs them mentality.

Does BFL's customer service and project mangement skills suck? Yep. Do i think they will start shipping within a month. yep. Have i been wrong before? yep.

What are your reasons for thinking this?

Use the $650 to buy bitcoins and in 6 months when BFL starts shipping, you'll look at the value of your bitcoins and be so glad you didn't waste your money on a pre-order now.

+1

Have they requested FPGA trade-ins be returned yet? Nope.

How many times must BFL crooks lie about shipping dates before people stop assigning anything they say any credibility at all? Really.

Simply because is seems they now have all the components now. Sounded like they were throwing in the towel to achieve original power hash specs and will ship with what they got. Prices raised to deal with increased pcb and chip costs. Businesses do that to keep profit margin steady when input costs go up. That's how i interpreted this whole change. But hey who am i to complain, i asked for them to raise prices on thier forum lol.

Raise their prices on WHAT? Exactly?

Fair enough.  

From what I have read I wouldn't conclude that they have any viable products yet, or will anytime soon, so my opinion is different.

I had the same thoughts and missed out on the avalon preorders. BFL at least has pics of boxes with fans, the chips, the working unit hashing. First time someone saw an Avalon and knew it hashed was after it shipped to  jeff. So i'm content to gamble on bfl for now.

hmmm.... I don't follow your logic here.

I have some pics of tyres and rims I can send you.   Do you believe I can build a race car since I built a go cart?

Best of luck. You do realize people sent BFL 5000 Bitcoins to pre-order minirigs in June of 2012 right? Those bitcoins would now be worth $695,000 now and the product is not only undelivered TEN MONTHS LATER, but it's been cancelled because BFL cannot even build it. Now that's what I'd call a sh1t sandwich.

A bet on BFL is a proven loser again and again.

I think part of the thing with some of the BFL supporters is that they, understandably, want to believe that they didn't get ripped off, and that they made a good choice to go with BFL. So they are more inclined to be strung along by constant 'we'll ship in two weeks'.

I'd probably feel the same way if I preordered with them.

I think just logically though, if you look at the company's track record so far, I just don't see them shipping for at least another month.  Honestly I think I lost faith that BFL will be able to produce the products (they already sold) at all. Still nothing like a single completed prototype. It'd be a miracle for them to figure out the engineering problems and then ramp up to any sort of reasonable production level.

Going such lengths to 'win' the shipping bet is also a huge red flag to me. Putting that much energy into 'winning' the bet leads me to believe they aren't even working on developing the product at all. If I was them and 8 months behind or whatever, I'd be pulling 18 hour work days trying to get it done. Maybe they gave up?

How many units did they sell anyways? How many 1000's? I don't see it happening anytime soon and feel bad for people who bought in.  

edit: ya I'm going to stop commenting on BFL. I don't have any money in... my opinion doesn't matter too much on this...

 Lets say BT drops to $1 . Wouldn't people have said they were smart for getting rid of BT. Then again there would b no point mining. Looking in hindsight ya sure would be better if they saved thier BT. but hey they could have asked for a refund long time ago and bought back some BT with it.  so who are you to ay they got screwed. They took the risk and made the decision to stay on. Just like all preoders  that are still in the queue, we take the risk.  No one is saying anythign on these boards that we dont already know.

Im not a bfl supporter. Im a bfl pre-orderer. Dont get it mixed up. Again is the US vs them mentality, that makes me laugh. Like dems vs repubs, all stupid labels. Comes down to this, theres 2 players in this game. You either get in the game with avalon or bfl or you  dont play. We are mostly all big boys here and can decide our own risk tolerences.

By defending BFL on these forums, you lend legitimacy to a shady operation that has fleeced people of their money and given nothing in return. BFL has already gotten 8 months worth of the benefit of the doubt. Maybe if you had more than 12 posts, 5 of which are defending BFL, the people who got scammed out of their money might be a little less hostile toward you.

minternj is Joshin' us like a pro :)

Funny. Im not defending shit. Here's the facts. I have gpu rigs. I want an asic. BFL "sells" one. I did my own research and think i can take the risk. You telling people what they already knows does nothing.

hmmmm... Joshin public and trying to engage latent noobs to step in, while communicating in manner which identifies the common GPU miner today... oh you're good...

On the other side, here at forum, I see about 5-10 computer engineers with reasonable doubt, and pretty much with the similar conclusions...

What is the similar conclusion? sorry msutve missed that. How can they conclude anything if they havent built a bitcoin asic?

Wait didn't yifu of avalon concede they are close? Dunno, hes the only guy that would know sine he has a product.

And i could give less of a shit what other people do. In fact i rather people not buy it! its competition for my current and future mining returns.

Any business that has capital sitting may invest it in whatever they want unless there is a specific covenant not to do so in their terms of service, an invoice or some other agreement with the client. In many cases this is described as a trust account or a segregated account that guarantees the return of your deposited funds but with no interest. Companies that take such deposits may then invest those funds in anything they deem fit. IF their risk tolerance is high then they can realize significant non-operating gains (income that has nothing to do with their business of making widgets or whatever). They are totally within their right to do so. In the case of BFL, they have accepted orders in BTC - many early buyers paid in BTC. But their prices have always been stated in a USD equivalent. Also, accounting standards demand that the liabilities associated with any unfulfilled orders be denominated in USD.

Short answer: Yes, they have 'speculated' on the BTC / USD gain as a function of accounting practices alone. If they were really smart, they would have actively speculated and now be sitting on a major pile of free and clear equity on their balance sheet. If they did then they are doing very well and should have no problems completing their work. If they are a scam then they have made far more from the speculation than the preorders.

So....(Inaba) this wasn't an April fools?

Someone find me a picture of "So much Fail".

small point, but yifu said he had encountered these problems 1.2 months from shipping.   That does not mean that BFL is 1.2 months from shipping, it means two people who actually know what they are doing, could overcome all the obstacles that are to come in about five weeks.   What that says about BFL is for you to figure out.   

That point was made as a response to the vaporware accusations. I conclude shipping date from my own thoughts. if you go by bfl hsitory then ya im probably wrong with 100% certainty. but do i think they have a product to ship in the near future, yep. do i endorse that you buy it, nope.

my bet is june, which would mean they are lying, which, to me, makes this a fraudulent scam.

I think you might have something here. This is probably one of the smartest posts I've read this week.

If I was a bigwig billionaire type, and I believed Bitcoin had a realistic long term shot at major world change (ala MP3, Internet, social media, streaming movies, etc) I would be quickly sitting down with the only professional-style game in town (read BFL) and having a nice long chat about winding down all the business to all the whiny, bitching, retail customers (read you and me) and ramping up big time commercial scale PRIVATE bitcoin mining.

Do you think 20 or 30 million dollars would be enough to pay for a lunch date with Josh and Sonny??

That would be silly, and stupid.  As soon as anyone had so much as a whiff that such things were taking place, confidence in Bitcoin would plummet THROUGH the basement.  There would be zero value in a billionaire type making such a move.  They would only lose money.

That is an extremely naive viewpoint.  Just imagine for a second, that a mere rumor that a meeting between Josh and Sonny and Warren Buffet took place.  The price of Bitcoin would absolutely explode!  It's not even on mainstream radar yet, and the price is up whatever thousand percent.  No one knows about Bitcoin yet, except my girlfriend.  When they do realize the potential though, hold onto your hat.  Financial guys would go absolutely bananas for it if there was talks about BIG investment.  Everyone here would be left in the dust.  All of your rant, raving, and fuming would be meaningless.  BFL could burn everyone of us, and it wouldn't matter one bit.  They could just refund us all double our pre-order investment.

The BIG money could take our little Bitcoin playtoys on a mere whim.

Yifu isnt an engineer btw.

Hes just trolling you guys. Saying 1.2 month and all. Next thing i expect him to say is...0.6 week from shipping Batch 2

The Avalon guys were bang on when they pointed out where they felt BTCFPGA and BFL were with their vaporware production efforts in the past. While Ngzhang is the tech guru over there Yifu is no dummy and he's probably getting his info from the man. I'd not quickly dismiss what either of the Avalon guys have to say.

so to summarize:
"engineers" on the forum who have not had anything to do with a bitcoin mining asic  = credible
yifu (not an engineer according to you) = not credible  

either way i cant talk rationally to people like this because if you still doubt they have product after this point with luke-jrs unit hashing as we speak on his pool, theres no other proof they can supply you other than a shipped product. i'll agree that its still risky if they will ship at all, but again thats my risk to take.

Actually there's a ton of proof they could've provided, see Jeff Garzik's review of an actual shipped and received ASIC mining product for reference if you're confused...THAT'S how you eradicate any doubt. Whatever happened between JZ and Luke Jr. it lacks the credibility and clout of Garzik's Avalon unpacking utterly.

When did you start talking rationally on this subject btw? 

Thumbs up! :)
Looks like it.

Albeit one could fake with great effort the current evidence, it's still quite strong. Only BFL track record makes one wonder it's legitimacy.

BKM: Bitcoin returns are indeed insane, but also volatile, high risk, and you need to time your trades for the long term return.
I started with just few euros worth, 350BTC, and all my mining equipment etc. is paid up so far with that return (including BFL FPGAs, and quite a few BFL preorder devices, ASICMINER shares etc.)

But things you are talking about most people don't have a clue about unfortunately.
You are right, margins are somewhat low in the real world. Normal DC accounts HW for 2-3 years return.

If BFL ships these people hating BFL right now will flock to them to get their piece. I have a lot of preorders and i'm anxious too if they will ship.

sigh.. what did i say that was IRrational. I find theories that they faked the bfgminer output in the pic to be irrational. I see it hashing and i beleive the stats to be true. conversely if you dont beleive in the stats i'd assume you to think the opposite. See, thats rational, i'm not going to say your wrong based on your beliefs..

Think there's little left to be said as we have differing viewpoints, opinions are like assholes everyone's got one.

I think you are getting treated a little too harshly in this thread.  I don't agree with you but you are entitled to your opinion.  It's definitely reasonable to have hope because some sort of ASIC is hashing at the BFL labs. 

The way I look at it is that Luke-Jr. is not reputable and I wouldn't call those uncased components anything more than a prototype.  And all indications are that the prototypes still have issues.  When will they be able to produce something ready for shipping to end users?  I don't think they are close.

Says one low post count account user to the other low count account....

Funny how all the low count posters are fine with everything done by BFL. How does that work? Are they employees trying to change the way things appear at Bitcointalk?

Nah....couldn't be....

And nary a peep from Team BGL after their recent price increase.

That's how they treat their customer base.

Right.. Because post counts measures ones intelligence or legitimacy right? Who said I was fine with anything, putting words n my mouth.. I just commented on my belief they will ship soon now that they have a working asic.

Dude you should step away from the pc for a day, clear your head a little maybe. I said it before in this thread its not us vs them. We are all miners.

I'll take his 37 posts over your 1000+ posts of crap. At least his post make some sort of a coherent thought rather than just trolling.

Which fucking planet are you on?

Look, I don't have high opinions of Luke but he'd know if the hardware he's developing with was fake by now, and he usually only lies about software issues.

In case anyone doesn't realise, confirmation of working ASICs != shipping of completed units.

Wow man. Their customer service manager wrote a blog about it on their forums and they have been answering questions there.

I would say they are communicating with their customers. Your incorrect statements are astounding.

I would say you don't know the history and appear to be pretty gullible.   Those of us who've been watching this shit storm since June 2012 know better, which, you do not.

+1

Sadly, BFL loves preying on the new guys.

Weird. Back in September, it was ONLY the newbies that was complaining and calling them scammers. Now those newbies all have 1000+ post counts (usually bashing BFL), and suddenly their word is God.

Never fear yates, BFL still has plenty of shills and sockpuppets around...as you well know.

At this point anybody with a brain larger than a pea can see that BFL had ZERO chance of shipping a finished product last October...ZERO, yet they lied time and time again to convince the community that their products were right around the corner. Seriously can you even debate any of that at this point?

How does even a staunch BFL apologist such as yourself reconcile all the lies? You were all over Tom every time he said anything, but the BFL scam has been running far longer and you seem fine with it...what gives? We've had debates about power consumption where you felt bASIC power consumption was ridiculously high compared to BFL's awesome 1w/Gh, but now here's reality smacking BFL in the face and now they're talking about 7w/Gh which is more than Tom ever estimated for his products. So is *THAT* a problem for you? ...or is it now okay because it's less than Avalon? Let's tentatively name this phenomenon "The BFL Sliding Fail Scale" shall we? Kinda catchy dontcha think?

What the hell? So what would it take for them to "communicate"? They wrote updates and blogs.

I didn't argue whether it was right or wrong, but they DID  speak about it, which make "nary a peep" a false statement. Yes, maybe they communicated lies or maybe it will turn out to be truth, but they did *communicate*.

Don't bash me because you have such a strong desire to be right.

I stand by my statement, for it's you that's mistaken--with all due respect.

Hindsight. Fucking. Bias.

Wrong. "Frizz: Date Registered: January 18, 2012".

http://www.bilder-hochladen.net/files/k9l5-1n-66f0.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bias

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

You can sell your BFL pre-order on eBay and make a tidy profit:  http://www.ebay.com/itm/60-GH-s-Bitcoin-Miner-BitForce-Single-SC-ASIC-Butterfly-Labs-Get-in-NOW-/261195953343?pt=PCC_Video_TV_Cards&hash=item3cd07df4bf -- 24 bidders and over $3K right now.  Note that the links above referencing psychological self-justification for one's purchases could be applied not only to ordering hardware from Butterfly Labs but also to many other purchases such as buying Bitcoins.  Both are speculative and risky, and both are highly profitable at the moment from a fiat currency point of view.

It should also be noted that an entire ecosystem of trolling has evolved on the subject of how one has chosen to speculate with one's money.  While we're on the subject of psychology, I imagine the incidence of mental disorders would be high within this group, perhaps with narcissism and related disorders leading the list?  So how about we all take a moment of silence for all of the poor folks here suffering from such disorders and think about setting up a Bitcoin fund to pay for therapy for those who want to be treated?  ;D

Are you referring to this:
https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/124-why-did-you-raise-your-prices.html#comments (https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/124-why-did-you-raise-your-prices.html#comments)

" ...
With all the emails asking legitimate questions about orders and payments, I see, "Why did you raise your prices?"

Do you write to Sears and say, "Your power drills went up in price. Why?" or to Amazon, "Why is the cookbook I want more than it was last year?" When the plumber gives you a quote, do you say, "It was cheaper last year. Why?" Well, maybe you do.

Give us a chance to answer customers' real questions
..."

Yep, that's some mighty fine "communicating with their customers".

How dare you customers ask when you'll get the product you ordered last year! Just remember, "all sales are final".

And I think this is exactly what BFL intended.  Why ask for a refund when you can sell your "more valuable" pre-order to the greater fool?

@ Crazy

It's not that our word is god. It's that "We" have been here a long time and seen all the antics at BFL. As a vendor they never came through.

It is nice to know that after 170+ days of failure, your still saying you have confidence in them. I understand.

-------------------------

If I ask any of the new (low post accounts) guys/gals up above about any manner of hijinks and history at BFL....do you think they will know what I am even talking about?

If I ask them to recount how things went over the last few months from any casual observers point of view....what do you think their response will be?

If they do indeed know this....and they still have hope....then I have a bridge on sale that will be a great investment for them. It runs right between where two buildings are right now. It hasn't been built yet, nor have the plans been drawn up as a draft. But I assure you, it will someday be built. Eventually...

Therefore I am opening up an opportunity to own a part of this money making bridge. Please, pre-order now.

Indeed.

It is almost like their perpetual promise to ship is now multiplying. Making new promises through that of customers. Promising a device that they themselves don't believe may ever come (therefore selling it).

Someone has got to get squeezed HARD so that BFL customers can get their cash....one way or the other. In this case, find the dumbest newbie and retell them the same falsehoods that BFL told you. It will work, I promise*.

*(Potency may wane after 9 months of waiting)

---------------------------

Someone should contact eBay to have them close down a shitload of accounts.

My statement has yet to be proven false.

This was posted a day before you claimed they haven't posted anything.  It's pretty much a non-statement, but it's all they got.

https://forums.butterflylabs.com/blogs/bfl_jody/122-new-products-new-prices.html

 by
BFL_Jody
, 04-04-2013 at 07:52 PM (1555 Views)

    We have taken as many orders as we can fulfill at the present configuration. We are redesigning and have rolled out a whole new set of products. We have sold all the MiniRigs that we can build until we order a whole new set of parts.

    If you have ordered a Jalapeno, a Little Single, a Single SC or a MiniRig SC we will deliver on those orders. Just because you don't see them on the order page doesn't mean they are not in production.

    We in Customer Service have a backlog of over a week, so don't think you are forgotten. If you forget to email us to ask when your order will ship we will forgive you.

Puerto, I have about 40 posts and none of them are even remotely pro-BFL.  You are letting your paranoia get the better of you.  I realize that you despise Josh Zerlan, and I don't blame you.  It's quite clear that he is a piece of garbage and has made it personal with you.  Try not to go off the deep end though.

The reason I said that the other poster is being treated too harshly in the thread is that I believe he is entitled to his opinion.  BFL has many paying customers.  To assume that a random poster is a paid shill because he believes BFL will deliver is just silly.  You don't have to agree with his opinion (as I don't), but attacking him as a liar is a little much.  There's no reason to believe he is anything but the typical BFL customer.  They really do exist, as I am sure you must know.

Fixed that for you. BFL has zero customers. A customer is defined as "one that purchases a commodity or service". Since BFL currently offers no commodities or services (unless you count emotional distress as a service to those who are aroused by it), they can have no customers. Now if BFL was selling European options on ASIC equipment with an expiration date of 2015, they would be selling a service.

Alright.

Sorry about the attitude I have given you. You should see the back slapping and congratulations they have over at the BFL forums. I think the entire board is now taken over by socks with barely a post.

Frankly I don't know how someone can order via the BFL website and not gather the impression that something is massively wrong. If I were them, just hearing about the backlog 9 months long....would take me to the refund window in a jiffy.

People see Avalons hashing and not in stock... they see the stats on the page and use a calculator to show the earnings (without energy costs etc...). Then greed kicks in because of the huge fucking pile of "money" such a thing would make.... virtual $ atm but they don't mind :D

^^ Thats like saying .. yeah honda just came out with a v12 nsx and its fast, did you see that thing at the raceway?!! ..

 lets all go spend a bazillions on the lawnmower from john dear! They announced they will make the unseen lawnmower goes 150mPH in like 3 seconds!!
Complete with a seatbelt and everything! and if its not fast enough they promised they will give you TWO lawn mowers! ALL ABOARD??

There's already a video going around .. sorry it doesnt show it cutting grass and the sets itself on fire issue is nothing to worry about .. if you happen to turn it on and walk away, it wont burn down to the ground along with your house! Really... best lawn mower we will never have!


That is literally what it sounds like! Some of the level headed people in here have been trying to save the fools! BFL will claim bankruptcy and run for the border!! It should be the defacto standard for how to scam! If you dont want to get scammed in the future you should list all the moments you thought they were gonna deliver because that was them making a move! You should study those moments in time so as to not fall for it again! and again. and..  wait ( we have someone screaming there is a lawn mower coming )  <--- for the love of !!! Back away from the lawn mower.. get on the plane and go.



Now the rest of the proverbial John deer employees you have a plane headed to Mexico waiting for you on the runway..



Everyone else please back away from the track and go back into the stands .. there will be no lawn mower, chirping in 3rd gear!  

"Topic: BFL RIP OFF... price up 90%, 50GH/s for 2499$'


that the market price --- don't like it don't buy  -- go some where else

There is no market, because there is no product. There is no 50GH/s (yet, in an infinite universe anything may happen), but BFL sure will take your money.
There is no buying, buying requires that an exchange takes place. Since BFL has no ASICs to offer (yet), no exchange can take place. They have no customers, they have sold no ASICs and nobody has bought anything. Avalon is currently out of stock and backordered, or nobody would care that BFL scams a few nitwits with more cash than brains.

It is pretty evident that anyone who ordered this year won't see a delivery until early next year.

They could be sitting on twice that in BTC now...... tough to say - but all representations point towards them shipping something. I wish they had a more Yifu attitude on the PR side but - will I care when I plug in my BFL ASIC's - no - just like I don't care that Steve Jobs was an ass everytime I use my Iphone

^^ "but all representations point towards them shipping something"!     <--- WTF!!


Im so going into the "something" business. So how many here would buy nothing with something!

Something is up and you guys arent gonna get it until you have nothing!





 Now go back and tell them we fired you, and to send someone who has something... anything but nothing!







 

The fact that the CEO has been convicted of scamming, and the whole scammy business of them saying they have "shipped." when in fact they have only given one unit to their employee, Josh, which hasn't actually left the building... well it doesn't inspire confidence.

I wonder how many extra orders they received when they publicised that they had started shipping.

Correct, see bolded. Does that somehow excuse BFL's constant lies?


Yes, how'd you know?!?


Definitely YES. Biased against BFL and their lying scammy employees. For reasons see above.

LOL.,, puerto libre got an avalon for being a dickhead to BFL.
Nobody takes him seriously.

This is how it looks.. LOOOOL



https://i.imgur.com/ZRhCSvh.jpg



  ;D
 
If it went down like that people would be like..

Dont worry they are going on a field trip.. a walk about like the aborigines, but on a plane! LOL

I assume they jacked the price to prevent more refunds. Now it seems like you're getting a deal for your vaporware

Ship any yet?

jalapenos are shipping, nothing else at the moment.

They're up to early August 2012 with jallys.

Don't bother responding to this guy. He's a known BFL troll. He and other BFL trolls are getting more and more desperate with BFL tearing through Jalapeno orders, so he's started necro-posting in every BFL thread he can find. Kinda pathetic, really...

No way wrench... it's awesome.  Nice to see the top 8 posts in this section about BFL again. 

I urge him to continue as much as he wants. :)

Still waiting....

I bet Bicknellski's keyboard is on fire and there's spittle all over his monitor at this point.  Hmm... maybe the foam from his mouth put out the keyboard fire, that's how he's able to keep it up!

Baited. Again.

Yeah, I agree with that, it's good for BFL that he insists on keeping all things BFL I just mean from a mental health perspective, this guy is seemingly teetering on the edge of going postal. Hopefully the NSA is keeping close tabs on this one.  :D :D :D

.... and waiting and waiting.

Maybe go dig up another dozen or so threads and make the same 2-word necro-post on all of them...

You mean like the OP? Like all the time the words "2 weeks" were used by BFL representatives?

Sounds like a bit of lame fun...

Would it even matter to people who have orders with BFL? I don't think it actually would. It is better if they stay invested in BFL as they aren't going to get their order in 2 weeks if the past is used as a trend.  It keeps them out of mining and that is probably something every other ASIC owner wants (including early Jally buyers).

God knows there is always something going on that keeps the promises from coming true...

 ::)

Said by the guy who was typing crazy like a raving lunatic just yesterday....

You mean the guy who was taking on and destroying 3+ trolls at once? Yeah, I remember that too...

Destroying trolls?

 ;D

I love your imagination LOL.

I invite people to look through his posting history. It is definitely worth [more than] a few laughs.

Link: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=100693;sa=showPosts

I second the invitation. I'm goddamn hilarious!  ;D

I wonder what Inaba is so happy about anyway?

He's shipped way late and most of the profits his customers would have made will not be realized. Can they make a profit from here on out? Yes.

But will they ever make the profits they lost from October till now? No way! (In my opinion and based on hard numbers)

--------------------

They are going to get the lions share of the pity party.

Yes, the profit will be there, but it won't be like it was back in march 2013 and definitely not the crazy amounts back in October 2012.

BFL, God's infinite mercy be willing, will ship a huge load of devices to their customers. Then, their customers are going to be hopping from pool to pool trying to figure out which pool gives them the most meager returns from all the TeraHash and competition they have from other BFL customers.

How can anyone be happy about it?

Think about it.

-----------------------

I wouldn't be surprised if BFL customers start selling 'en masse' their mining rigs. After a few days and multiple hundreds of TeraHash competition duking it out for 25 BTC rewards...there are going to be a tidal wave of irate customers.

To keep earning a lot of BitCoins people are going to need mulitples of what todays Mining rigs are capable of. People with the money and the headstart might be able to buy that up.

People without that head start...well...it is the pity party or mortgaging your home for a loan. (or something like that)

You think Inaba doesn't know this?  :D

Who needs trolls when irate people become them in massive numbers thanks to BFL alone?

Go on, quote for them what they are going to be making in the first month after you ship a ton of LS/S/MR devices + whatever is left of the Jally queue.

I want you to bring the numbers up and then I want BFL customers to compare their actual earnings against your promise/projections.

Do one better, make it month by month or week to week from now until the end of the year. LOL.

There is nothing more epicly tragic than talking about things you would not want your customers to know. Or making projections that never become a reality. (Or worse, come out much shorter than the projections)

Does anyone think there is anything I could possibly say that will piss BFL customers off more than Inaba making projection on profitability for every week that remains in 2013?


Having said this, Inaba is never ever going to touch this topic and make projections on earnings across different devices. Not even if he armed himself with riot gear.

The one thing you never do, is outline profitability that your customers can compare reality to. Because it will cause such an uproar that you'll never hear the end of it.

How on earth is Butterfly going to BUY  their miners, when they have a backlog of orders not fulfilled ..