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Add $100 to order to get new firmware and faster clocks. ???
Log into your existing order status and see.
http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/2299/bflupgrade2.jpg

Is this if you ordered the original 4.5Gh/s unit last year?

Let me see if I have this correct: BFL is making it mandatory to pay extra to receive a product you've already once fully paid for so that it about equals the current list price of said item, coupled with this is the only unit type they've been shipping out.

How close am I?

Bunch o' snakes....

Like a bank and ATM charges. Man snakes!

Their con is running out of money

yes, I ordered early last year.

I just upgraded one of mine (early Jul order).
And with a similar feel to the shipping upgrade its been paid but still shows as amount due.
LOL: from $187 to now $449 in total :o

No point ordering the Express shipping, it's a rippoff just get the normal shipping.

You'd think with 6-8 month delays, you'd upgrade people for free.

To turn around and ask for MORE money, from people who paid in June 2012? Wow.

These guys have balls of steel. I'd be worried some crazy Bitcoin nutjob would show to the office and start shooting. You tell people you're about to ship for 4 months, then try to upsell them on an upgraded firmware?

Someone should sit down with them and let the know if they keep pushing their luck this might end badly (lawsuits, charges, insane bitcoin nerd with a gun). I still find it hard to believe they've had people's money for 8-10 months and somehow have the nerve to ask for more. Treat people's trust and money like a big joke, it usually ends up biting you in the ass. Fucking crazy.

It looks like it's optional, not mandatory. But yeah the cheek, they should throw that in for free considering how long BFL has made you/is making you guys wait.

It certainly does have an air of desperation. I'm guessing they are losing money on every device they ship out due to cost overruns.

You know what is funny?

I speculated/accused BFL of selling future firmware "speed upgrades" at cost to the customer way back when they turned their Single SC from 40 to 60Gh/s. I was called a liar by the rep back then for even suggesting it. Well, here it is.

The BFL customer is about to know what it feels like to get tapped twice for something they already purchased....

I guess that is one less "lie" the BFL rep can accuse me of.

The funny thing is....

They gave people the extra 20Gh/s on the Single SC line for the first 45~90 days of waiting. The next 90+ days after that...nada.

i have the option too on my order for A Jalapeno.

Funny thing is, i got a refund for that order 3 days ago, and the order is still shown as "processing" and upgradeable in their database.

Perhaps i might actually get my unit shipped after its refunded?

Either that, or they are just bad/lazy with their orders :)

Get refund guys and walk a way .

Sounds like their Jalepenos are either under, or over-performing with a revised design and it's costing them. They can't force you to pay more, but to cover their costs they have to request you do.

Gut feeling, seems odd they would have two board revisions this late in the day otherwise.

Would love to know what people get if they don't upgrade, whether it will be under spec or over spec.

Guess we will find out in due course.

yes no one forcing you to pay but i least the order that paid in june or the order that fund there fucking stupid project get it free .

The original design had one chip and no heatsink, the current design is much larger, two chips and a big heatsink and fan. So all of a sudden they can only make half as many units from a wafer, but they can drive them harder then just having one chip if they want to. Early April when they discovered that they would need more parts to make a unit, the price went up too.

So do the newer (post-April price increase) orders also receive the same request to voluntarily pay more?

What does this mean to the larger units that presumably require twice the chips and wafers as well? Everything being directly proportional...

I'm not a BFL customer, but am following the story unfold.

Also, this is a response to requests from customers on their forum to be able to upgrade for an additional $100. It didn't come from BFL to begin with.

However, whether those customers on the forum were BFL employees or not I don't know.

This. This is looking more and more like a long con every single day. Reminds me of 419 scammers who after stealing money come back later to promise to pay it back but need a little more to send it to them. Milking every last dime.

They change the design in April, the 4.5GH/s low profile unit is no more on their site. The smallest unit is 5GH/s cube shaped unit, more expensive. So you couldn't order the old style unit even if you wanted to anymore.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/paul_newman.jpg

In the movie The Sting, the nose tapping is a signal between the con men.

Yes, obviously, that doesn't answer the question though. Will the newer orders also be requested to pay additional?

Has anyone with a post April order number seen a similar request?

It looks like to me that they are selling a 2nd 2Ghs box for $100?!?

If that is true then that is a much better deal that the 300Mhs USB thingy for 2 BTC.

If it is a 2nd box then maybe they have a supply of rejects that don't meet the needed performance and are trying to recoup some of the loss in building them?

Real bottom of the barrel type stuff

Things must be getting tight !

<Sigh>

False. The original design used the top plate as the heatsink. (Hence the name "Jalepeno" and it's coffee warming capability.

True, up to this point.

False premise, if that were true, they wouldn't need two chips.

False, the ASIC chips themselves don't double the price. They just "wanted" to raise the price to double the cost across all their product lines.

The ASIC chips aren't the cause of the price going up. BFL reps can correct me if they object to this statement, but won't, because that isn't the case.

I doubt that, and remember ASIC miner make additional monies by selling used old stock at whatever excessive price the market allows them because they have working shipable products. BFL currently don't, they are clearly not satisfied with anything they have shipped or they wouldn't continue to revise the basic offering.

The ASIC miner 'USB' thingy contains one ASIC chip, they have no NRE costs as they covered that a long time back. BFL are still burning NRE prototype by prototype. So a chip costs ASIC miner between $0.50 and $2 dependant on volume ordered and design intricacy...they make a huuuuuuge profit and bizarrely sell it at a price that a buyer will unlikely see a return on!?

Is the "upgrade" mandatory then?

This is a bit shoddy, loads of you already shelled out to get your place in line, why should you have to shell out some more because the company is inept and couldnt deliver their promised performance/power targets.

50$ per extra GH/s? When the first GH/s are significantly less?

4.5Gh/s /divide by/ 149 = 33.11USD per Gh/s
5Gh/s /divide by/ 274 = 54.80USD per Gh/s

Hmm, I take it back, the Bitforce 5 is REALLY expensive per Gh/s.

I guess I will have to bear the bad news to you folks. Overclocking was one of the selling points of BFL hardware. The company stayed mostly quiet on the specifics of that. But many were led to believe it would be a free software option. (It is apparently not)

Avalon has free overclocking settings. BFL? Nope.

How many dollars does it take to get to 71Gh/s?

Well it would take 252 Avalon chips.

Once NRE is out the way (it now is for Avalon), taking an industry price per ASIC of $0.50 - $2.50 per ASIC, it takes US$126(min)-US$630(Max) for Avalon to produce 71Gh/s.

After casing, wires, heatsinks, PCB, and optional PSU, the rest is profit.

Alternatively they sell the chips to you at a current BTC price equivalent to approx $10 a chip, or a combined 71Gh/s bundle at approx US$2,553 (today's equivalent - chips only). A tidy profit of between $1,923-$2,427!!!

I doubt they use different boards, more than likely just flashing a different firmware since the chips have additional headroom. As long as it's not mandatory I don't really see the problem, shit like this is more or less standard in this world, anyone really think HT is broken on every single 3570k? Yep better pay Intel to NOT disable it for a 3770k ;P

Nah, they're not in for money, it's to help decentralization  ;D

ASIC manufacturers and maybe Avalon 1 batch users are the only who'll make good money from asics, it looks.

I wonder if people who pay the extra money get their orders shipped first.  They better not be.

I have Jalapenos on order and will not be shipping more money off to BFL.  I would like them to ship what I ordered in mid 2012 ASAP, no upgrade offers, speed increases, new firmware.  Just ship what I paid for.  Simple.

Upgrade option has currently been removed. It was available for both older 4.5 and newer 5ghz orders.
Hopefully this option has been reconsidered.

Apparently removed sometime today as it was there last night when I first checked it.

No word on the BFL forums on what it was about either.

Weird it was there earlier today and now it's gone.

Selling: yes
Shipping: no

I'm just glad it's gone. Firmware's should be free.

Do a 360 and walk away...

ROTFL!  These have got to be the sleaziest guys on God's green earth!

Wouldn't you be walking in the same direction still  ;)

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/why-they-call-it-an-xbox-360 (http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/why-they-call-it-an-xbox-360)

rofl   ;D

If it was firmware. This sounds to me more like a 3 chip Jala since they took the offer down. Perhaps they ran out of chips binned for 2GH instead of 2.5GH.

They got everyone all moist and lubed up by promising 200 units would be shipped Friday.  They shipped one that we know of, and then they pull this crap to try and sucker more people in without any intention of shipping the rest of the units they promised.  

For those of you who didn't think this was a scam up to this point, are you convinced yet?  If not, why not?

It was firmware, stated on BFL forum and BFL Shoutbox.

$274 + $115 Express Shipping + $100 Upgrade = $489 for 7Gh/s in two weeks...

BUY BUY BUY!!! How many more can I buy?! Is there a limit? Shipping in two weeks everyone!

Where do you see a 2GH BFL? It doesn't show up on their products page? I'd gladly change my 5GHs order to two 2GH's if they can ship now. I'd be "losing" money on that deal, but I'd actually have a product at that point.

Not if you did a half turn as you were walking in a circle.

I think the upgrade offer is something that BFL wouldn't try unless they were getting desperate. Other companies tell you how to overclock their hardware for free. These guys have the nerve to ask long-suffering customers to pay more to continue to wait.

I think their cash flow from new orders is drying up and this is an attempt to shake down existing customers for a few dollars more to buy them a bit more time. How much longer have they got? Two weeks?  ;)

They've claimed *all* lines will ship this week, if they don't ship several hundred units I think it's game over.

I'll reveal something interesting that I've recently noticed, if it continues for another day or two.

Is it a nip slip? I love nip slips!  ;D

In the sense it will expose something, yes. :) In the sense you will see a live mammalian protuberance, no.  :(

I must keep my mouth shut for now; I might be wrong.  :-X

I promise if the trend doesn't continue I'll just admit I was wrong and stay quiet about it.

Interested, interested, very interested, very very interested ... suddenly lost interest.  :P

No upgrade heat problems watch the new update ... No jalas go out perhaps thursday

Here's a hint BFL: ship the Jalapenos, and then offer upgraded firmware for a nominal payment.  Asking for more money up front with hundreds of customers waiting is just plain rude.

BFL was supposed to ship 200 units on Friday and Saturday.  How many did they actually ship?

BFL: "With that in mind, we should be getting about 200 5 GH/s boards on Friday, and we'll be shipping those out on Friday and Saturday."

Now, how do you expect the swarm of locust to do shipping when they're busy playing sockpuppets on this forum.

Besides, it's a four day weekend, with a big race coming up. Surely, you can't expect BFL to be as busy as Roman manning his Twitter account, do you?

How does one receive 200 boards and get them assembled/packaged and shipped out the same day?

Not very long ago it was:

1. Get the boards
2. Assemble them over a few days
3. Ship them over a few days...

So approximately AT LEAST a week.

Now they got it down they can do it in under 15 hours? Given most postal businesses are not open longer than that in a single day.

Josh said 400 a day, and he never lies so it must be true. 200 leaves plenty of time for creating shill accounts, deleting posts, cancelleling orders and thinking of new ways to screw people you've already been screwing for 12 months.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee106/PFC4L1FE/One-Does-Not-Simply_zps66ebe0ec.png (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/PFC4L1FE/media/One-Does-Not-Simply_zps66ebe0ec.png.html)

the best BFL videos ever!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERE4uiufqE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4SnUObMd0o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eF6FSdur8k

Hi.
Big Free Loan please.

Remember their new 500gh/s miner will be available for (pre)sale THIS week!

But with a firmware revision and $200 extra you could be looking at 700gh/s!

I am going to giggle a bit when the first one of these melts.

There's some stirrings over in BFL land that all is not well with the new Jala boards. Wrong mosfets installed or something by the board supplier, but they've only just detected the problem. More delays. And the 7GHash upgrade apparently has been withdrawn, it was a "mistake". AFAIK they still intend to do big singles this week.

Shouldn't take more than a "couple of weeks" to iron out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8vwuwibQ_tQ#t=380s

Wrong MOSFETs installed (whose fault?), so the boards are being returned.  Great.  200 Jalapenos probably not shipping this week.  Maybe next week.  BFL always seem to give extremely optimistic time lines, such as the most recent one where PCBs were to be received Friday and sent out the same day and next.  They were assuming the boards would be be bug free, there would be no problems installing chips and they could package and send 200 over a weekend.  BFL always seems to give timelines that require perfection, from the supplier, to the shipping company, to BFL itself.  The real world doesn't work that way.  It's time BFL found out.

Oh .. the never ending excuses to why things have not shipped....

Same like the prototypes we never saw from June/July/August/Sep/Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb/Mar

And finally a real one shows up in april

What was it the clock buffers where not bumping last time..now we have the case of the missing Mofsets or have Avalon have a spy implanted in there assembly line

Why not the most likely truth that they dont exist !! just like the mystery of the prototype...I really think we need scooby doo to solve this one ....or at least track down the fool who installed the wrong mosfets so Josh can School that Fool .. !!!

ROFL. Laff-A-Lympics...

Have you sent in a complaint to Google?

Posting something serious in the current tragicomic situation (from customer point of view) is probably doomed to fail, but here goes anyway.

When the BFL ASIC (ad)venture started I got the feeling it was a community project. Sure, BFL was already an established company with their FPGA related products, but the demand and inspiration was driven by the Bitcoin community. Back in mid 2012 it was all about cheering on BFL for taking on this huge challenge, with cheers, patting on the back and applause. Times were great and the anticipation grew among miners.

The rest you all know, with one delay after another, and broken promises. After dealing with electronics for the past decade and knowing a lot about the business this was something I expected, granted, not that it would take this long, still, no real surprise. Designing and prototyping (FPGA) a product is one thing, actually producing something ASIC based is a whole different ballgame.

Yet, even after all this time, I still feel like this is a community project, or at least it should be. How does a community act when their pet project is stumbling on the verge to fail? You help out in any way possible, keep encouraging those who work hard to make this a reality. Now they need cheers more than ever, this is that last stretch when everything has to fall into place.

I know from experience accepting pre-orders can be hairy, but as long as the company treat their customer payments with respect by refunding promptly when someone wants to cancel their order, then what more can you ask for?

After reading all the bashing here in the forums, some from competitor trolls, and some from customers, this seems more like an angry customer at walmart demanding a full refund on their toaster after ten years of use. Where did that community spirit go?

I have to admit it's a lot of fun to read all these elaborate posts here, serious posts mixed with jokes and one-liners. What makes it even more fun is that there is some truth to it, humor at best. I only wish that it was kept on that level, and not turn into something destructive making it even harder for BFL reach "our" goal. Yes, being a customer in a community driven project it is in "our" interest they are successful, it's not their responsibility alone.

Good to hear another voice rather than the usual rants. Hopefully BFL will soon start serious shipping and finally silence the trolls.

Definitely. Curse those trolls and their perfectly reasonable complaints about this scam!

BFL is a private company.  While there was a general feeling of excitement about ASICs in mid 2012 and the promise of delivery in October or November 2012, that feeling has well and truly worn off.  Even your best friend can become really annoying if they keep making and breaking promise after promise.  I don't know the ins and outs of the problems BFL encountered, but when you say you're weeks away from shipping in October 2012 and begin to trickle out a few units 6 months later there's something seriously wrong.

I don't think the 'angry Walmart customer seeking a refund on a ten year old toaster' analogy works on any level.  The vast majority of BFL customers have yet to receive anything from the company.  I know I could have asked for a refund from BFL a long time ago.  We all do.  We also know that if enough people ask for one it will collapse the company simply because BFL must have used a large chunk of the preorder money for product development, making boxes, wafers, PCBs, employee time, etc.

This has to be the lamest comparison, ever. BFL has received an incredible amount of goodwill (and money!) from the Bitcoin community. All the community got from them are INSULTS and BIG FAT LIES.

I feel that being pro-BFL or anti-BFL is not the right way to classify people. I don't think there are too many delighted current or ex-BFL customers. People who might fall in either camp are *both* disappointed in BFL's lack of performance and broken promises. Some people choose to hang on their spot in the queue and hope BFL turn the corner. Others get fed up and cancel. Both are pissed off.

I was greedy and placed an order without doing much due diligence. After a few days I corrected my initial mistake and after a few weeks I cancelled. If I'd done my due diligence first I never would have ordered. I am now invested elsewhere, and even though it's in my economic interest for BFL to continue to stumble I do feel for the people who have chosen to wait, and I do hope they get their hardware. But at the same time it would turn my stomach for BFL to succeed when they have mislead and deceived so much.

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee106/PFC4L1FE/butterfly-count-ha05_zps8d0db531.png (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/PFC4L1FE/media/butterfly-count-ha05_zps8d0db531.png.html)

or maybe...

http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee106/PFC4L1FE/fossil_zps231f0505.png (http://s230.photobucket.com/user/PFC4L1FE/media/fossil_zps231f0505.png.html)

I'm nonchalant towards BFL as I'm not invested. As a bystander what angers me is that their mistakes, both engineering, and public relations, are amateur and for the most part could have been avoided. There is every reason for their investors to criticise them, they've wantonly damaged their own reputation as a genuine business. In lieu of a CEO slating people openly on a public forum under a separate account; he could have shown some humility; opened up to problems earlier, dealt with some flack earlier, maybe lost some preorder monies earlier, instead of hoarding it, then getting himself into greater financial difficulty later. He should have ditched the ego, and asked the community for support to help through design issues. It would have been a hell of a lot cheaper than whatever advice they've been paying for...

The customer service at Walmart is orders of magnitude better than that of BFL. Just read through Inaba's post history for a taste. You forgot Avalon and bASIC in the history of things. The community rooted them on for a time as well. Then the marketing war started and things turned ugly. BFL relentlessly attacked via marketing that their chips were so much more power efficient and had better performance. That turned out not to be true at all. In fact, given their delays it turns out their marketing claims of actual measurements were baseless.

What turned me off to BFL was Josh's incandescent disdain for the community that spawned him, and BFL's sketchy marketing campaign.

Delays are to be expected. Notice how the community treats Avalon now? They had delays too.

 Even animals know you aren't supposed to shit where you eat.

If this was a scam/con BFL would be long gone by now, cashing out at the peak around new year already, close to the Avalon release. Unless you use the word "scam" to point out that the product design draws more power than initially stated in the features. I'm more worried the project will fail in ways so we all get refunded (my order was placed in early October).





I have to agree that total honesty would have been preferred, but to BFL's defense, they had the pressure from the competition to deal with back then and choose not to reveal too much which might have been a mistake looking at it now, in many cases I think they were just overly optimistic, it happens when working with something you truly burn for and invest all time to complete, makes you blind and defensive.

I've been following some threads in this forum, probably missed a lot of them, but categorically the insults early on from BFL where replies to forum users who were already bashing away at them, trying to undermine the whole project and their credibility. This is where my "lame walmart comparison" comes in; if you treat people as your equal in a community (including BFL), then everything seems relatively normal, two forum users arguing, both having valid points. As soon you start leaning on your rights as a customer and demand to be treated as such, then many will regard their replies as insults, but only because it is expected to wildly curse the company and get the bog standard "Is there anything else I can help you with? Lick your toes perhaps while you verbally shit all over me?". That said I think the BFL tactic of replying actively in this forum to defend themselves was a bad choice, it only made matters worse, but oddly enough it proved once again to me that they are only human, and actually belongs in this crazy wonderful community (unlike walmart).

As you probably noticed by now I'm still behind BFL here, supporting them. This is not because I believe every word they say, or to protect my investment. You might think I'm gullible or stupid, this might be true, but if doing business on internet since before the 2k shift has taught me anything it is to be paranoid. No, I'm backing BFL because I want to see this project succeed, and being painfully stubborn myself while watching BFL struggle only makes me support them more, even if it means carrying them over the finish line.

That is more or less what you did unfortunately.

I emailed BFL asking if the ASIC upgrade would be extended for FPGAs. I was told it will not extend past May 31st. BFL FPGA's are about to plummet in price if you haven't upgraded them already.

edit: Oops, wrong thread but still interesting info.

Doubtful, they're still making coin, whilst their ASICs aren't...

 I do admit to getting irate, true. It never should have come to that :( Wouldn't have under normal circumstances.

What is really telling to me is your apology Xian01... that speaks to your integrity. The lack of an apology is also very telling and really gets to the root of the problem at BFL. Failure is acceptable and even the preferred way to learn and as a teacher, with 17 years experience, I expect and desire that from my students, however ignoring and or not accepting responsibility for a failure is a flaw at the moral core of a human being. Clearly those who do that lack this basic human aspect of morality were never given the opportunity to develop that as a child and later an adolescent and was a result of a less than ideal environment. Morality is a major part of human development particularly from 6 - 18 years of age and deviations from that norm are only common place when people are not afforded a supportive and safe environment to do so or they may even have a genetic dispensation for amoral behavior. I wonder which it is for those working for BFL, as it seems at every turn they choose the amoral option? Given that why should anyone give them support, monetary or otherwise, the benefit of the doubt, or even root for them to pull through when it seems the organization and it's members lack the basic human integrity and morality that I observed each day in 6 to 9 year old students?

The answer is that a long con is more profitable. Why would they cash out at the peak when millions in preorders are still pouring in? It also gives more time for them to squirrel money away if and when the ship starts sinking. Sonny has plenty of experience doing this, given his criminal history and experience in moving millions of dollars between bank accounts, profits of his multi-year mail order scam. Sonny's dad and his Laissez Faire City followed a similar path to destruction: It was semi-successful and yes, it existed and people lived there, but he embezzled away huge amounts of money according the audit. I think the apple doesn't fall too far from the tree, in this case.

Wouldn't it be smarter to avoid developing a prototype and paying for the ASIC mask if the goal is to con people? I mean, why bother now when they can actually make more money selling the product which is already out there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKcLZ_vqbiU).

My theory for their incredible amount of dilettantism is this: There's no pressure on BFL, because they already have our money.
They have enough venture capital and pre order money for another six months(?). Another year(?). Who knows. I assume Josh & Sonny grant themselves a princely salary (say $800,000 per year) because they are such high potentials  ::).

Once this money is gone, and/or no more new money comes in, because even hillbillies understood that difficulty made BFLs devices unprofitable, BFL is history.

Once BFL goes belly up, prosecutors can't find anything unlawful, because BFL tried as best as they could to bring ASICS to the market. Oh noes, who could have know that they fuck up each and every step? It was just another startup that failed ...

I'm also not amused with the perma-delays we keep on hearing from BFL, but you guys are still a whole other kind... So consumed by your blind hatred of BFL that once they go belly-up it will be like losing a part of yourself, you need them to fuel your anger!

TL;DR: You guys NEED BFL!

Disclaimer: I'm just trolling here, need to keep myself entertained.

You forgot the part where they sell a copy of the mask to a newly formed tech company for pennies on the dollar in efforts to balance the books and stave off bankruptcy.  As BFL implodes, said newly founded tech company starts a massive solo mining asic farm.

We need BFL so we can point and say "there, thats the bad guy".

Funny thing is I agree with you a bit here. I love the drama this situation creates. Every week I have to know if BFL has started full scale shipping yet. People are losing so much money by the week that it gives a great weight to the tragedy element. Im not really angry at BFL at all, in fact I have to thank them for slowing the difficulty down like no one else could have.

I have to admit, I don't want this to end. If BFL ever starts full scale shipping I will be sad to see the BFL show come to an end. I think we will get a few more seasons though  ;D

I can see they are offering the upgrade on Jalapenos again

As a miner, BFL was the greatest thing since sliced bread. I have to thank them for acting as a sea anchor on the difficulty rise.
There are 500 scams on these forums with new ones showing up every day. BFL is just the tall pole in the tent right now.

This is flat out dreaming.
If you ever wanna see a a refund, better get it now, they obviously won't be able to cover for everyone.
You know they have been paying 25 employees, suppliers, facilities, Josh's life insurrance, a few Nexus 7 and fans, etc. for over a year using your "pre-order" money, right ?

Hell, the infamous quarter might even be yours...  ;D

Not to mention a warehouse supposedly full of entirely the wrong casings...

Don't forget the fans.

http://www.antiqbuyer.com/images/ARCHIVE_PICS/Office_archive/Fans-W/fan_e910.jpg

Already listed. But maybe you thought I was talking about paying for fanboys to post all over with new accounts ?
Mmmmh.... You might be right, after all.

I keep forgetting this is about money, when looking at this thread from another angle, instead thinking about those stock related "Buy now!" or "Sell now!" threads it all makes sense. These negative posts are all about maxing your own profits by making as many people as possible get refunds.

Or... it is about protecting consumers from more harm. There are PLENTY of alternatives now to choose from. Why would anyone in their right mind continue having faith in BFL. Drop em quick before you get burned.

The 2Ghash per Jalapeno upgrade offer for $100 each is back online.  Looking at my order,  I paid $33 per Ghash.  The upgrade is priced at $50 per Ghash.  BFL will have to offer keener pricing.

If I can add to my order in the current queue, I will buy as many GH @ $50 as I am able to.

If they took those refunds and bought Avalon or ASICMiner with them, the money would probably show up sooner in the network hash rate. So no, as a miner we would prefer if every single BFL investor left their funds in Josh's hands.

However, Bitcoin has to grow up at some point and that process means kicking to the curb the scammers and their prey.

The DIFFICULTY squeeze has been on for a while now.

At some point it will be pointless to buy BFL products lol.

But if the price continues to rise then their multiple 1000 BTC charity donations will cost that much more to pay.

BFL is caught in a hard spot. Well I'm glad that given they lied about their product specs and giving stupid delay information week after week they deserve everything that is on the horizon for them as a business.

It would be against the law if they touch my pre-order money. Unless they shipped my unit, they are not allowed to do so.

Once BFL goes belly up it will be interesting to see if they've broken this law.

Might be true for some of us. But most of us are just fed of with their constant lies and the lost profit since October 2012.

Now you did it! Just to prove that your pre-order money is safe and sound, BFL is now in the process of refunding it back to you. As soon as they reverse engineer your BT user account connecting it to your RL name on file, or getting the IP info from theymos using advertising moneys as a wedge.

Бoльшoй лжeц Чepтoв

Remember they also have VC funding:
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/6/prweb9611889.htm

If this was actually true they would not need to make an announcement to take preorders right?

They would simply use VC funding to get the product produced then take actual orders.

Can't have it both ways. It makes no sense to.

You are a sucker.

It makes no sense for a VC funded business to reduce its risk profile?  Especially in a fixed window where they might not keep first to market advantage?

- Claims to have VC funding for development of ASIC processors
- Announces pre-orders in June 2012 for tentative availability in 5 months (October 2012)
- On April 4th 2013, announces doubling of pricing across the board
- Presently May 29th 2013, no Single SCs or MiniRigs seen in the wild. No ETA possible due to continuing production issues
- Continue to take pre-orders funds with growing community concern of not being able to fulfill order queue in a reasonable timeframe

They said they have VC funding. They did not mention which VC firm (or individual) invested in them. They did not mention how much was invested in them.
There were no filings to add people to their board (which is what happens when someone puts a chunk of money into a company).

You should examine other press releases by firms who have gotten venture backing. If it is good news, they always announce the name of the firm or individual and the amount that was invested. Moreover, the firm also announces the investment and places the company in their portfolio page. If the amount was paltry (like $100,000) then they probably just want to say "backed by VC" and let people presume that they have funding.

"Always"? You speak in a lot of absolutes... Ever heard of silent partners/investors? Not everybody who invests in a venture wants their name on the building, or in the newspapers.  ::)

VC firms don't generally do silent partner investments. We were talking about Venture Capital funds, not an angel round or rich uncle taking a stake etc.
There is no "stealth mode" consideration here since BFL has been broadcasting their intent and methods.

"Generally"... A minute ago it was "Always" now it's only "generally".

This is my understanding as well. If this was backed by a reputable Venture Capital firm, it more-than-likely would have been displayed prominently in the initial press release.

If the VC firm didn't want to be mentioned, I'd certainly be wanting to know their cut in this...

Fine.

There is no single example that I can find of a Venture Capital firm attempting to keep their investment portfolio secret due to the reporting requirements forced upon them by their limited partnerships and the federal government. If BFL got anything at all, it was not from a registered VC firm.

Butterfly Labs would have added a director to their board upon investment from a VC firm which would involve a filing where they were incorporated.

And there you have it. Firms don't do silent partnerships, because they can't. Not all VCs work for firms. Regardless, I don't have a dog in this fight, no idea if they do or do not have any outside investment happening or not, my beef was with you speaking in absolutes. My issue was with your statements. You said "If it is good news, they always announce the name of the firm or individual and the amount that was invested." which is patently false.

[emphasis mine]

 In retrospect, something else strikes me as odd from the press release

"“Butterfly Labs has always considered itself a serious manufacturer in the SHA-256 hardware industry and our customers are leaders in providing hashing services for some of the world’s great technological challenges,” noted Nasser G, BFL CTO. “We see the BitForce SC lineup as the natural next step in continuing to meet our customer's needs.”"

 I've never seen a technology press release where the CTO of a company does not give his last name.

Happens all the time...just ask Sonny K. ;)

The discussion was about whether a VC firm invested in BFL like they claimed.

Thanks for agreeing with me.

I trimmed out all the nonsensical haterade and insultifying you do. It isn't really relevant.

WOW, I can't believe this!

Did they say the VC was through a firm? You said "firm". I don't see where they said "firm". Actually, you said "Firm or individual" and then LATER said "Firm" and are now acting like that was your position the entire time.

You have a tendency discard any information that proves you to be wrong/lying, and post things entirely out of context; so I'll just go ahead and put that back for you. ;)

Jesus, let it go man. Nobody wants to hear you two argue. Get a room.

Unfortunately there is not one useful BFL thread on this forum, they all get trolled instantly.

Considering that forum members probably have hundreds of thousands, perhaps even millions of USD invested in BFL pre-orders, I think the trolling is rather irresponsible as the members deserve useful information on their investment without the deliberate disruption of content.

I would like to see at least one heavily moderated information thread on the progress of BLF pre-orders.

I upgraded mine, pretty reasonable price for 2Gh/s when you consider other options. That said it's very dependent on when they ship!!

Yep. Can't discuss the things that don't add up. Doing so is trolling. Blind optimism is the only acceptable response. Pirate40 and Zhou Tong did not exist.
No pessimistic views are to be offered in threads where someone asks "Should I stick with BFL?".


https://forums.butterflylabs.com/
Enjoy your heavy moderation in moderation.

The beginning of the discussion was here:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=215699.msg2305852#msg2305852

That thread contained a link to this press release:
http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/6/prweb9611889.htm

Had you bothered to read the press release or the thread you would have seen:
Retail sales have continued to grow strongly, and with exponential month-to-month sales increases, the decision to back BFL was made easily. “Butterfly Labs has strong fundamentals indicative of the kind of rapid growth company we support,” the private equity group notes. “Having made bold investments in new technology, they’re poised to redefine the landscape for SHA-256 hash verification.”

The bolded part "the private equity group notes" indicates a firm. Why would they refer to an individual silent partner as a "private equity group". Also note the use of the pronoun "We" in the phrase "We support" right before the bolded part. Unless the private silent partner refers to him or herself in the plural third person, it indicates a group or syndicate of investors.

You have a tendency to flail desperately against anything that puts BFL in a negative light. Especially anything presented by me. Your ego is writing checks your fingers can't cash.

You can be my wingman any day!
Bullshit, you can be mine!

yeah, you guys should get a room

We have a room. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=76.0
Are you suggesting a different room?
Did I provide too many citations for my position?
Were the links too intimidating?

I'm loving the Top Gun theme.

please, carry on :)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092099/quotes
Stinger: Maverick, you just did an incredibly brave thing. What you should have done was land your plane! You don't own that plane, the tax payers do! Son, your ego is writing checks your body can't cash. You've been busted, you lost your qualifications as section leader three times, put in hack twice by me, with a history of high speed passes over five air control towers, and one admiral's daughter!
Goose: Penny Benjamin?
[Maverick shrugs]

...

Iceman: You can be my wingman any time.
Maverick: Bullshit! You can be mine.

Gray area. It's perfectly legal to use your funds to develop and ship a product AS LONG as they deliver.

It's not clear if the $100 gets you more hardware,  or a simple firmware parameter change.

If it's more hardware then if it would be just worth it, as the base unit costs $54.4/GH/s and the upgrade is only $50/GH/s. However if it's just a firmware change then it's not worth $100, because the labour involved would be trivial, might pay $50 max.

Not only a firmware change (talking about Jalapeno here though)

Think AMD 7970 vs 7950.

That would be a good question to ask on the legal forums.  ;)

I am just happy somebody got it.  :D

Where was this quote? It implies that some of the 5's may do 7 also? Without the 'upgrade'?

ps, sorry to rejack this thread back.

BFL forum > Shoutbox > Inaba

Like he said: The 5's may or may not
So probably you could try a 7GH firmware on a 5GH unit and it may work or not.

cool, sounds like they'll be binning some of the 5's to make sure they can do 7.

IMO if you have a very early order I'd skip the upgrade.

If your order is far enough down the queue just wait for others to order upgrades and see how they do in the wild.  I assume you can update later when you have a better idea of the risk and reward?

I paid 50$ for 1GH. Is not that much.

You say it's not that much, but has it fucked with your order positioning?

I mean they have no prototypes of this firmware and hardware revision yet.

The initial model we know they can build.

So which is shipped first? Those stubborn and happy to take the initial spec, or those that want new improvements??

You may find if you upgrade you wait longer than you could have if you did nothing and left your order as it was...

The delivery order is the same. Upgrading will change nothing except your unit(s) power.

i just upgrade it. Hope it won't cause any shipment issue.

Yes but someone has already stated they are using different chips for this upgrade, not just a firmware upgrade.

In which case it's new untested parts which require a new prototype and therefore means old chips they have in hand goto old design spec and presently ready sooner than the new chip based designs and orders...

Stop with your FUD, idiot.

I figured it was the result of BFL binning the chips. The boards support multiple chips, so they could arrange them in any configuration that makes economic sense.
2 binned @ 3.5GH/s,  One binned @ 3.5GH with one binned @ 2.5GH, 2 binned @ 2.5GH/s, etc
I suspect that this is sort of a bolt on for the Jalapeno units, since originally they were supposed to be a single chip at a single performance point. Now that it has multiple chips, and the chips have multiple bins they have more flexibility in the product line.

Well, you can speculate all you want.
If you have an order and afraid you gonna loose you place, just don't upgrade.
If you don't have an order, then is not your problem.

It's not even close to shipping and you are paying more for upgrades?

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/an-n_RQYY7th4mt/animal_house_1978_omega_pledge_ceremony/

Goto BFL forums ...there u can have the neo nazi heavly moderated forum of your dreams...

I know u r not interested in the truth and would like to sensor everything that is BFL ..why is this ?

After the upgrade option reappeared, I specifically asked BFL_Jonathan on their forum chat box if upgrading affected your queue position.

The response was "Of course not".

- (insert date) Scammer tags on this forum are now null and void. Please use the Trust thingy.

Lots of NEG heading a few BFL accounts way I bet.

i get the impression that they are trying to develope and sell version 2 of the jala (i.e 2nd gen product line) without building and shipping version 1 that everyone paid for and expected, they also expect you to give them more money to get in line for it.

of course it'll all be ready in 2 weeks.

Sorry?! Care to elaborate on that comment...?

That glaring yellow 'ignore' button you've earned seems to suggest your full of it...its's actually the darkest I've seen, yet alone on such a minor cumulative posting count.

BFL's Pravda announced that it's the exact same design ASIC in the exact same board, it just has less defective engines. "Different chips" just means ones that they have found to work better than normal. They're just binning like GPUs do, find ones that work better than typical and sell them for more.

As long as you can dissipate the extra heat, there shouldn't be a problem - but BFL has had difficulty with that as of late.

Thanks for the clarity Maqifrnswa, but Philips; the original author in this chain of comments, had stated that this was more than just a firmware update, but a hardware update as well two pages back. In which case I was pointing out to him that should it be a change of hardware that required new production it would be hard to justify his exact same place in the queue should he chose to upgrade.

Nemesis was just being an illiterate troll.

What I said is that for 100$ you will get selected chips guaranteed up to 7GH.
So a firmware update is not sufficient.
It may work or it may not for your 5GH unit.
That is why I made the 7950 vs 7970 comparison.

Well, lets assume you order 2 x 3.5GH/s chips to make 7GH/s. BFL has been ordering small batches of chips (a few hundred).
What happens when their 3.5GH/s bin is empty, but they still have 2.5GH/s chips. They can't make your unit until they receive more 3.5GH/s binned chips, but they can make other people's who ordered the 5GH/s unit and can use the chips they have in stock. So ordering might "affect" your position in the queue very slightly. But it probably won't be noticeable.

I will let you assume whatever you want.
I prefer:

Your converse assumption is not necessarily true. Chips binned for 3.5GH/s can also run reliably at 2.5GH/s. Chips binned @ 2.5GH/s cannot run reliably at higher rates. They can make 5GH/s units out of chips binned for 7GH/s but not vice versa.
The counter example case is:
If every chip binned at 3.5GH/s, they could make both 5GH/s and 7GH/s units out of that bin with 2 chips per unit.
If every chip binned at 2.5GH/s, they could only make 5GH/s without adding a 3rd chip (which might not be economical due to their margins).

It was a joke.

I will check for firmware upgrades for my sense of humor module.  ;D

In your defense I would say it was an attempted joke, and relaying jokes through forum posts is not so effective. Your current firmware might still be OK.

Anyway, we can make all kind of assumption, good or bad.
I prefer to go with the good ones, and that is why I paid.

The upgrade option to 7GH/s is back on the site

I bought a laptop with Intel i3 a year ago which I haven't received and now they want me to pay more money for a laptop with an Intel i5 that I won't receive anytime soon.... :/

Basically, I'm paying for things I don't have and I probably won't have in the near future. Excuse my french but GO FUCK YOURSELF BFL

BFL Press Release


Red flag #1: Executives that won't post their real name.
Red flag #2, an unnamed venture firm
Red flag #3, and indeterminate amount of investment.

Sketchy, and thus likely to be misleading. Most likely it wasn't a real venture firm.

Now let's look at a real company with real venture investment.

http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130516005639/en/BitPay-Raises-2-Million-led-Founders-Fund

Executives using their real names, real verifyable venture firms, investing a real amount of money. That's how a real venture investment works.

If I had to guess, the BFL "investment" was simply Sonny using some of his stolen funds from his previous scam.

You can now also upgrade the 50GH to a 60GH one apparently

How hard would it be to just download or copy the Firmware off some one else chip? And then re wright /wright over or replace said chip/firmware?

 The 60GH ones are more-than-likely using all Grade A chips, so it might not be probable to take a 50 to 60 via firmware alone.

How them old upgrades going?

Try the new upgrades yet?

-another 1000 for trolling ancient posts.

People like to check back to see if predictions and speculations held true.

Ah, you're so right, you can dig up all kinds of neat stuff...



Do I call you a used-to-be sock puppet now?