Bitcoin Forum

Since this is gonna inevitably happen in the next decade, this should be something we should at least be aware of. Where would you want to be if this happens, and where would you most definitely NOT want to be?

Gonna get the obvious ones out of the way first:
Wouldn't want to be in Washington DC.
Would want to be anywhere in the silicon valley, CA. (except for EPA and east San Jose)

Chicago/any of the various heavy gun control cities would be a bad place to be.

This might be a good place to be, if they get it going.

http://www.iiicitadel.com/

I would say places that grow food for humans, that is not that corn crap...

Corn, wheat, oats or rice, in the end it's all grass.

Still, I would prefer to be near where something I can eat is grown...

The mass produced corn isn't really too edible...

If you're careful, and lucky, your back yard can grow enough wheat to feed you. A couple of window gardens with herbs, and maybe an indoor grow room for tomatoes, and you'll be doing OK. Not a very varied diet, but mostly nutritionally complete, if you can get some fish.

It's not as complicated as some people might think to grow stuff in your garden.
Potatoes, beans, peas, carrots, etc.
You only have to make sure it doesn't get eaten by rabbits or snails.

Hmm. I wonder what food it would be more beneficial to plant in a limited space garden... what sort of garden would be the most nutritionally complete, and how much space would be required per person?

I might do some research on that.

Heard a guy come on Bloomberg over sirius/xm the other day that is on a liquid diet only, called it soylent, I kid you not. When he mentioned the name I thought that Bloomberg or sirius was running a spoof.

Why on earth they would call it this is beyond me considering the movie and all.... (look up soylent green if you haven't seen the movie.)

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/drink-soylent-and-youll-never-have-to-eat-again
https://campaign.soylent.me/soylent-free-your-body

Well, there is a robotics company named Cyberdyne. I'm beginning to think these things are named as jokes.

Costa Rica! Manuel Antonio. Beautiful beaches, not too many people, plenty of agriculture, very basic and yet pleasant life.

In most of those areas, less red means less water, which means no food.

My answer is 'as far from a Federal Reserve district bank as practical'.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Federal_Reserve_Districts_Map.svg/350px-Federal_Reserve_Districts_Map.svg.png

In my Bunker on my private heavily fortified island  8)

For the average person, someone hardworking and careful, I would figure three crop cycles (basically three years) of part time work to get decent production from a garden.  In some cases, longer.  For some areas and for some people, never.  There are massive amounts of "lore" and technique involved.

Anyone who wants to have some fun with gardening and learn from it, try grapes or strawberries.

Why would you want fish? 

Protein, mostly. A couple of essential vitamins/oils and such. Take up less space than a cow, too.

Keep in mind this is just off the top of my head, I haven't done a lot of research on what, exactly, you would need to have, but just spit-balling: bread for calories, herbs for flavor and vitamins, tomatoes for the all-important vitamin C, and fish for protein and other vitamins. I'm no nutritionist, but that seems fairly complete to me, if boring.

You start with your own supply of water and food in a remote place to outlast most, then you can go in six months to a lot more places with water later.  Having six months of food supply is not too hard, having six months of water is tougher unless you have a well.

Yeah, I don't think this is true at all. I think I'll just stay where I am and not worry about Doomsday Prepping.

Says the obvious government troll.

I see no compelling reason to believe that the dollar is "inevitably" going to plummet in the next decade.

The May 28 Daily Treasury Statement shows that the US Treasury has an operating cash balance of ~$16 billion which is roughly one day's average cash outlay of about $17 billion. That same statement showed that we are $25 Million shy of the new debt ceiling.

Since the onset of Expanded QE3, the Fed has monetized 73% of Net Public Treasury Debt Issuance, should hit 100% by Mid-July if it continues at this pace, as the Fed has indicated it will continue into the summer.

The US government can't control foreign holders of US IOUs (US Treasury Bonds) who have a growing perception they will never be paid back on the trillions of dollars of debt owed them. Foreign holders of US Treasury bills can sell them off at a loss to others.
 
The amount those T-bonds are discounted is the amount the US dollar will be valued at in the world marketplace. At that point, the US faces a default on its obligations to pay back lenders.

As for the best place...

I am not sure if being here with the military in Afghanistan is the best place to be. They would likely pull the troops back to "secure" things back home. They would likely not care about protecting things over here anymore leaving us vulnerable.

But the government will pour money into protecting themselves before anything else so being in front of that fire hose will help me financially as long as I continue to just convert my paychecks to bitcoins.

But when I get back to the US I am looking at three options. BlueSeed, New Hampshire or going mobile.

A good start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_foot_gardening

Ya, I think about that image...

Luckily I work at an airport and there are commercial airlines here...money would talk.

Otherwise I am screwed.

Thanks, my apologies for off topic post and bring up nutrition which seems a science in its infancy with little we can say here productively.  Personally I hope my family friends and I remain lucky enough to have enough fruits and plants to eat and to never be poor/hungry enough to be forced to eat many animal proteins.  But when we are forced or gifted, we'll of course be thankful for any sustenance.             

Since you mentioned 'getting some fish', check out greenhouse aquaponics.

I was thinking along those lines, but I've heard those systems can be difficult to set up and delicate to maintain.

Maybe once the twins have outgrown their "high-speed wrecking ball" stage.

Check out Freight Farms
http://freightfarms.com/

A farm in a freight container.

If you have fish and vegetables (greenhouse aquaponics), I suspect people will be throwing corn and wheat at you for a chance at some trade.

I agree with you completely.  I'll do the animal protein thing, thanks for the dogs.

:)

and another one. http://www.markhamfarm.com/ (http://www.markhamfarm.com/)

I think rural Idaho is a good place, because it's largely unpopulated and game is ever present. Water isn't much of an issue either. You can hit it at about 3-4 hundred feet most places in a well, and there are numerous lakes and streams.

Just stay away from Boise. It's full of Boiseans :P

PERMIES.COM

Unless you're really into self-sufficiency and way out in the boondocks then you're going to need good neighbors. That's one of the reasons why New Hampshire is a good place to be. Not only are there already over 1,200 libertarian types here, but the natives are pretty darn good. We have places like Grafton, where 5-10 acre places are available that can allow subsistence farms; plus there's a lot of Free Staters and natives there that are into self-sufficiency. There's small towns all over where you can really get to know your neighbors, which helps with the safety aspect. We have two large gun manufacturers and a bunch of smaller ones, and a climate of acceptance of the right to self defense. It is a little hot in the summer, but its worth putting up with that for the freedom that comes with it.

[But I do think the total collapse scenario is unlikely. In either case though, taking steps towards self-sufficiency and good neighbors is wise counsel.]

lol ;)

The world is always the worst it has ever been.  ::)

This is a great concept, but the $60,000 USD price tag seems a bit high.  Also, there isn't a lot of information on their website before you throw down this kind of money.

Yeah, the 'a bit high' is an understatement.

check out "aquaponics" if your serious about self sufficeny of food production. We have a 3000L system which holds 250 plate size fish which we grow from fingerlings. The fish excrement provides food for 8 vegetable grow beds and because they are soaked in nutrient rich waters they grow 30~40% faster than any dirt veggie garden I have had before.

Fish stock:
* Rainbow trout (winter)
* Silver perch (summer)
* Cat fish (all-round)

Veggies (seasonal):
* Snow peas
* Broccili
* Lettuce
* Chilli
* herbs (parsley, mint, corriander, lemon grass)
* corn
* broad beans
* cucumbers
* squash
* pumpkin
* water melon

We also have 8 chickens for eggs.

This covers about 75% of our grocery bill.

All of this can be achieved in a 40m^2 area. Example site  > http://www.aquaponics.com.au

Aquaponics sounds like the way to go.  See "Backyard Liberty: The smart, easy way to food independence", available on the Interrnet.

Dr, Arthur B. Robinson, a research chemist at the Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, recommends a ration of one part soybeans, two parts corn and two parts wheat (by weight).  Plus vitamin C and salt (sodium chloride).  The vitamin C can be omitted if some of the wheat is sprouted.  Stored in a cool, dry place as whole grains, this ration will last for decades and costs very little. This ration is in the FEMA public literature, according to him.

If you do not have a well, check out LifeSaver at  http://www.lifesaversystems.com/

I have one of their jerry cans.

Where to be when TSHTF?  Near a military base.  Preferably a Marine camp.

the best food for survival is what the american natives used to grow, the 'three sisters' they called them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture)


the natives of the american continents lived here for thousands of years before european's/technology came over the big pond, reverting back to their ways seems logical

p.s. they didn't live in large/giant cities for reasons, if you are serious, you gotta get to a rural area

No elevators...

Done correctly, aquaponics is hughly effective, no doubt.  But doesn't your system require electricity?

That's not the primary reason.  The main reason was the way their society was organized and how the human mind works.  Rare did the tribal group grow beyond Dunbar's number without conflicts, except when there was an external threat to their people that compelled them to unite.

Although the lack of electricity to run elevators and fresh water pumps is a really good reason to leave urban areas that are concentrated enough that buildings higher than three stories were common.  City planners and emergency management professionals have long known that populations go crazy after three days without water, and either resort to unsanitary consumption that results in mass outbreaks of deadly diseases or mass civil unrest as groups who believe that resources are deliberately be held from them revolt against their perceived oppressors (whether true enough or not); often both these things.  Once upon a time, every city and town would make certain that the water towers held enough water for their demographics for three days at least, should the power fail long term and the pumps couldn't be run.  Population growth has outpaced those demographic predictions decades ago, and many urban areas couldn't supply three days without power no matter what.  Some 15 years or so ago, I worked on a public works project for the Cincinnait Water Works; installing an entire system of diesel & natural gas fired emergency pumps all controlled by central controls with minimum electric power requirements, and gensets to supply those minimums.  It's an awesome system.  It's a real pity that Cincinnati doesn't have the legal right, and therefore the capacity, to draw freshwater from the Ohio River.  They have to draw from the Little Miami and Great Miami Rivers.

My thoughts exactly, the system itself looks really cool but it definitely requires electricity which poses a problem. I live in California so solar is an option but what about at nights or during prolonged cloudy periods? If we are talking about a serious societal collapse even a generator powered by propane or diesel becomes inconvenient real quick. I know their are small semi-portable wind power generators but the problem with that and solar is what do you do if something breaks or malfunctions?

Pretty sure that comment was a joke.  8)

Aquaponics has been around for at least 3000 years so I suppose you could find a non-electric way to pump the water. If a hybrid solar / wind system that is off the grid concerns you then you could always go for an older wind powered water pump. If you get desperate, you can bucket the water by hand --- to cycle our system by hand I would need to move only 10 buckets of water three times a day in order to get the syphon actions working.

All in all, one of the better systems as the water you use does not drain away into the sold but stays in the closed system. Loses are from leakes and evaoraption only.

I was using as a segway whether or not it was a joke.

Man I first read this and thought you said you were using a segway and I just couldn't help but think of this

http://whatculture.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/segway-460x300.jpg

made me lol a bit  :P

I'm sure Gorbachev said the exact same thing about the Ruble in the late 1980s.  :D

PS- The USD has already plummeted from 2000-present, and this trend will only accelerate.

The US gov't is in so far over its head that the only way out is default.  Paying back these astronomical debts is impossible.  And if the US gov't defaults, it is game over.  The Fed will lose its exalted status as issuer of the world's reserve currency, and will go back to being just another group of banks.  That's if they are lucky.  If they are unlucky, and weren't quick enough to grab their loot and skedaddle to the Bahamas, they will be hung from lamp posts.  Or worse.

Up in the mountains.

Fishing
Hunting: Deer, Rabbits, Moose, Ducks, etc
Farming
Less population
Plenty of wood for housing & heat (firewood)
Possibly mining :) (minerals....not crypto)
Plenty of water in reservoirs & streams.  Also least contaminated.
Away from government rule and civil unrest

And what role would bitcoin play in this scenario?

None.....

If the dollar collapses then the rest of society is bound to falter.  I will be enjoying the mountains while the rest of the cities across the country are in turmoil.  People will be scrambling for food, shelter & safety.  Albeit this would be worst case scenario.

Bitcoin isn't going to solve all of the worlds problems.

if the dollar just declines, then right where I live today will be just fine.

Based upon what, exactly?  I would say it very much depends upon the details.  While it's unlikely that the dollar collapses without coincidental civil strife, the portion of the US "society" most immediately dependent upon the trustworthiness of the dollar are those whose paychecks are directly or indirectly dependent upon the government itself.  A very visable breakdown of the dollar, lacking realistic possibilities of returning to a viable currency, would be a harsh blow upon the government to maintain it's grip of control in any local sense.  Whether this is good or bad very much depends upon the particulars of your own local situation, and your particular viewpoint on the value of the federal government itself.

In any case, living in a mountain town isn't a bad place to weather any kind of storm.

no place is safe prior to USD crash.. You have no idea how the generally population will react

No one does, really.  That was my point.  To assume that the population will necessarily go mad just because of a currency crisis is at least as unsupportable.  There have been currency crisies in the past, and the degree to which the population goes mad varied significantly along with the details.

For anyone who hasn't seen this, go watch it.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Colony_(U.S._TV_series)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c8/The_colony_title_card.jpg

U wouldn't catch me there NOW... even armed.

Ftfy.

I tend to disagree with the 'near food' argument.

I want to be near people who provide valuable services; we're still going to have a functioning economy, just not based around the USD. A higher density population means I have more trading opportunities available within x radius than in rural, crop-growing areas.

Presumably, we'd outsource the import of food just as we do now: people would be paid to make it their job to transport enough food for the urban population(s) they service.

Also, social controls are going to be more important as government falls apart. No one hears a home invasion in the middle of no where. And fuel will be too valuable to constantly travel long distances just to make normal exchanges.

(I realized my post is kinda talking post-apocalyptic US, assuming the world is on par with the States' condition. Naturally if the USD alone plummets, the answer is 'outside the US.')

Indeed.  Cities developed long ago due to the efficiencies of groupings, and it's quite possible for a standard 1/4 acre lot to grow 50% or more of the food that a family of four would consume.  However, the knowledge of how to grow 'victory gardens' is all but lost in America, and generations of growing nothing but fescue on poor soils, and then throwing away the cuttings, has left us with quite a challenge.  IF a major currency crisis sets off a series of bad events and leads to a "world made by hand" imagined by some, or even a major economic collapse such as occurred in Russia during the 1990's; then there will be much suffering before enough of the population has both the knowledge and the resources to grow respectable amounts of food on urban plots.  There certainly aren't enough horses in this country to even come close to replacing lost bulk transportation capacity if we lose access to petrol.  But at least there will be plenty of unskilled labor able to do the work of gardening, if there are people willing to teach them all how to do it under such circumstances.

Hmm...well, if you were in a store that sold beer, whiskey, guns, or any of a number of things...as the USD plummeted, you'd make out nicely.  The key would be to stay behind the curve on the plummet.  This can be practiced with surfboards.

I heard it works pretty nice for a while.

Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a convience store, not the name of a government agency.

BTW, if you fear things might really get this bad, order a map of the salt "licks" in your area from your state geological survey outlet.  If you live farther than 100 miles from a coastline, you might find this information particularly valueable.

A number of Russians did struggle to feed themselves after the Russian financial crisis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Russia

The loss of the government farms initially led to a temporary dearth of expertise, and while corporate farms in Russia exist today, they are horribly inefficient compared to individual and family farms.

Basically, imagine the US gov't fails, what would happen? Well, all the subsidy pushers and corporate entities can no longer make profits off the land, so they start failing en masse and in order to try to recoup their costs, sell back the farms to individuals willing to farm it. And they'd do so at very reasonable rates, enough that someone could pay once (assuming they had the Bitcoin/Gold or whatever else might still have value) to pay for it and then have a plot of land that could feed them and their immediate family plus generate a steady stream of income for them to put their kids through secondary schooling.

I know a number of you might swear off living in a place like Iowa, but it's not like farming is rocket science or that you'd have to grow only corn, you could also raise pigs or cattle and trade with your neighbors for their corn and etc to feed your pigs and cattle, if you could produce the means to feed yourself, your family, and all your friends, would you do it?

I suppose I'm biased since I already live here and have friends and family in farming and herding. :/

It is important to note that the people that really struggled after the Russian financial crisis were the ones without friends and family. Many of them had to join the mafia or resort to prostitution, drug trade, or other criminal enterprises. If the dollar falls apart, be prepared to start talking to old friends and family members that you'd long since sworn off. And don't worry, they'll be seeking you out if you're worth anything, too.

I'm in the process of buying  a few hectares of land just outside of my home city.  It's kind of strange, because I've always been a 'city boy'.  I know almost nothing about farming, but then nor do I need to know that stuff.  What I plan on doing isn't farming, per se.  It's permaculture.  See, the land I bought is almost completely wooded.  Old growth timber 70 feet high, 30 to 50 inches across, and a complete canopy.  It's downright dark in the deep woods at midday.  I plan on a 'selective cut' of timber right from the start, to balance out some of the purchase price & to open up the canopy; letting me transition the property into a 'food forest'.  There is one house on the property already, that has been heated with wood grown from the same lot for as long as the house has been there.  When I walked the lot, there were at least four deadfall trees that hadn't yet been cut up.  In other words, the growth of the trees, even matured, outpace the heat needs of the single family home in this climate.  Some pawpaws, apples, pears, etc; mixed into the forest, and in a decade or so the 'food forest' will produce a great deal of food.  Problem is, permaculure doesn't produce on a modern industrial timescale.

That's still pretty nice. I know plenty of people that still have wood furnaces. Folks around here will practically give it away as long as you do the chopping yourself and vote for their friends in city or county elections. When done on a national scale, it's a scandal, in a small community it's just 'being neighborly'.

I think there's a lot to be said for working towards self-sufficiency, even if you don't have to work all that hard at it.

You're may have problems getting rid of the stumps, but you might have a neighbor or someone that can help.

You're right, that's not going to be enough to feed everyone especially early on, even if it could eventually take care of you and yours. If you have a steady and reliable income otherwise, you could still probably do fine.

You might like this article:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/04/heritage-apples-john-bunker-maine?page=1

Nope, got a plan.  The hardwoods I'll require that they are cut in winter, so they'll "coppicce" and grow back.  The regrowth rate is so much faster because the root system is already in place.  As for the stumps that can't regrow, or just fail, I'll cover over with a layer of good soil and use as a huglekultur bed (http://www.richsoil.com/hugelkultur/) for the replacement fruit tree guild.  Basicly the stump and roots rot in the ground, providing long term fertilizer and water retention for the seedling fruit tree.

I can't see it, something on that site keeps crashing my browser.

I haven't seen the movie, but it is simply a geeky joke on a couple of levels -- the original soylent in the book was just soy and lentils (it was a story about poverty), but then they added cannibalism and made it the main theme of the movie for dramatic purposes. Since this product was originally just a blog post about someone's homemade liquid, naming it that was probably actually a smart marketing move that helped it go viral.

Nowadays thanks to Rob's blog posts, "soylent" has become a kind of generic term for liquid diet that is supposed to meet all your nutritional needs. Rob is making his own and selling it via CrowdFunder. But there are also "open source" versions for DIYers... like this one that I just started making for myself: http://www.cookingfor20.com/2013/06/18/hacker-school-soylent-recipe/

Unlike Rob's, this one is really based on soy. I'm considering scaling up and selling it for BTC... it actually tastes really good.

Most of what doesn't produce on a modern industrial timescale has been literally forgotten, or in many cases, the information didn't transfer from our North American Indians to the whites coming in.

Some examples are the uses of the yucca plants, the high nutritional value of mesquite beans, and the fact that toasted crab grass (Johnson grass) seeds are both quite tasty and nutritious.  We've also forgotten the lore involved in making it through a harsh winter by stripping out the inner bark section of trees.  In many cases the loss of this lore is because it didn't translate into large scale or mechanized production.

I've yet to see this happen, in my experience with numerous species the roots grow shoots around the old stump, and you get what looks like a bush two or three years later.

That would be coppicing, which I already mentioned as the more likely outcome of cutting a mature standing tree in winter.  If, and only if, the stump dies; would I then bury it and use it in this manner.

They have been rediscovered.  Sepp Holzer, from Austria, is generally considered the single most influential person in the modern permaculture movement.  And he didn't think of the idea, he's just a very talented farmer who's family ranch is above 1500 meters above sea level.  He either had to figure it all out, or his family farm would fail.  He has literally proven several agriculture 'facts' to be false; such as it's impossible to grow fruit trees above 1000 meters above sea level.  It only takes one example to disprove such things, while Sepp has literally grown hundreds of fruit trees to fruiting above 1500 meters, of many different species and varieties.

His family farm didn't fail.

Regarding protein, why not just get it directly from roving mobs and bandits?

Mmmm, Soylent Green....

That thought is like opening up a fortune cookie after a great meal, and all it says is "That wasn't chicken".

lol you think you are the only one with guns? Good luck defeating bandits/mobs with guns.

nets and traps. I don't have to go out and look for people to shoot, just sit and wait for them to come to me and check the traps once in a while  ;D

I'm hitchhiking to Montana tomorrow.

Enjoy! I've spent a lot of time in the mountains along the Montana/Idaho border. Beautiful and plentiful if you know what you're doing. As an added bonus, this time of year it's not deadly if you don't!

I'm thinking, stock up on trading goods.  Yeah, bullets, bandaids and beans work for some, but here's the real item they will all want:

Barbecue sauce.

It's edible. Grind it up into flour and make bread. Also cows...

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if our grocery store beef had corn in it too  ;D

And chickens.  Corn makes for a fine chicken dinner after about four months.

I would say a small to medium sized town is the best place to be, under 250k people but no smaller than 10k.  That's where you see people working it out and pulling together.  I wouldn't want to be too isolated.  It's good to have medical care, food, water, trade, friends, jobs..

Greece already had its economy crash and things have been pretty bad.  There's some interesting journalism about this in the Telegraph and a few other newspapers online.  A barter system sprung up; people moved out of Athens to go back to their home provinces.  

Awesome answer. I agree.

In large part, human history is the story of defeating bandits and mobs with guns (or equal weapons for whichever era) over and over, and that's not going to change.  So, yes, bandits and mobs will be defeated, as they always have been.

Ummm, not in the U.S.

Given the USD's status as the worlds reserve currency, I'm not sure it will much matter. Everyone is in for some serious pain.  :-\

The US is a very diverse place.  Based on whatever logic you choose there should be somewhere here thats suitable.