Best/worst places to be in the United States once the USD plummets?

[Biomech]

I see no compelling reason to believe that the dollar is "inevitably" going to plummet in the next decade.

I'm sure Gorbachev said the exact same thing about the Ruble in the late 1980s.  

PS- The USD has already plummeted from 20001913-present, and this trend will only accelerate.

Ftfy.

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[DreDri]

I tend to disagree with the 'near food' argument.

I want to be near people who provide valuable services; we're still going to have a functioning economy, just not based around the USD. A higher density population means I have more trading opportunities available within x radius than in rural, crop-growing areas.

Presumably, we'd outsource the import of food just as we do now: people would be paid to make it their job to transport enough food for the urban population(s) they service.

Also, social controls are going to be more important as government falls apart. No one hears a home invasion in the middle of no where. And fuel will be too valuable to constantly travel long distances just to make normal exchanges.

(I realized my post is kinda talking post-apocalyptic US, assuming the world is on par with the States' condition. Naturally if the USD alone plummets, the answer is 'outside the US.')

[MoonShadow]

I tend to disagree with the 'near food' argument.

I want to be near people who provide valuable services; we're still going to have a functioning economy, just not based around the USD. A higher density population means I have more trading opportunities available within x radius than in rural, crop-growing areas.

Presumably, we'd outsource the import of food just as we do now: people would be paid to make it their job to transport enough food for the urban population(s) they service.

Also, social controls are going to be more important as government falls apart. No one hears a home invasion in the middle of no where. And fuel will be too valuable to constantly travel long distances just to make normal exchanges.

(I realized my post is kinda talking post-apocalyptic US, assuming the world is on par with the States' condition. Naturally if the USD alone plummets, the answer is 'outside the US.')

Indeed.  Cities developed long ago due to the efficiencies of groupings, and it's quite possible for a standard 1/4 acre lot to grow 50% or more of the food that a family of four would consume.  However, the knowledge of how to grow 'victory gardens' is all but lost in America, and generations of growing nothing but fescue on poor soils, and then throwing away the cuttings, has left us with quite a challenge.  IF a major currency crisis sets off a series of bad events and leads to a "world made by hand" imagined by some, or even a major economic collapse such as occurred in Russia during the 1990's; then there will be much suffering before enough of the population has both the knowledge and the resources to grow respectable amounts of food on urban plots.  There certainly aren't enough horses in this country to even come close to replacing lost bulk transportation capacity if we lose access to petrol.  But at least there will be plenty of unskilled labor able to do the work of gardening, if there are people willing to teach them all how to do it under such circumstances.

[Spendulus]

Since this is gonna inevitably happen in the next decade, this should be something we should at least be aware of. Where would you want to be if this happens, and where would you most definitely NOT want to be?

Hmm...well, if you were in a store that sold beer, whiskey, guns, or any of a number of things...as the USD plummeted, you'd make out nicely.  The key would be to stay behind the curve on the plummet.  This can be practiced with surfboards.

I heard it works pretty nice for a while.

[MoonShadow]

Since this is gonna inevitably happen in the next decade, this should be something we should at least be aware of. Where would you want to be if this happens, and where would you most definitely NOT want to be?

Hmm...well, if you were in a store that sold beer, whiskey, guns, or any of a number of things...as the USD plummeted, you'd make out nicely.  The key would be to stay behind the curve on the plummet.  This can be practiced with surfboards.

I heard it works pretty nice for a while.

Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a convience store, not the name of a government agency.

[MoonShadow]

BTW, if you fear things might really get this bad, order a map of the salt "licks" in your area from your state geological survey outlet.  If you live farther than 100 miles from a coastline, you might find this information particularly valueable.

[Raize]

A number of Russians did struggle to feed themselves after the Russian financial crisis:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture_in_Russia

The loss of the government farms initially led to a temporary dearth of expertise, and while corporate farms in Russia exist today, they are horribly inefficient compared to individual and family farms.

Basically, imagine the US gov't fails, what would happen? Well, all the subsidy pushers and corporate entities can no longer make profits off the land, so they start failing en masse and in order to try to recoup their costs, sell back the farms to individuals willing to farm it. And they'd do so at very reasonable rates, enough that someone could pay once (assuming they had the Bitcoin/Gold or whatever else might still have value) to pay for it and then have a plot of land that could feed them and their immediate family plus generate a steady stream of income for them to put their kids through secondary schooling.

I know a number of you might swear off living in a place like Iowa, but it's not like farming is rocket science or that you'd have to grow only corn, you could also raise pigs or cattle and trade with your neighbors for their corn and etc to feed your pigs and cattle, if you could produce the means to feed yourself, your family, and all your friends, would you do it?

I suppose I'm biased since I already live here and have friends and family in farming and herding. :/

It is important to note that the people that really struggled after the Russian financial crisis were the ones without friends and family. Many of them had to join the mafia or resort to prostitution, drug trade, or other criminal enterprises. If the dollar falls apart, be prepared to start talking to old friends and family members that you'd long since sworn off. And don't worry, they'll be seeking you out if you're worth anything, too.

[MoonShadow]

I suppose I'm biased since I already live here and have friends and family in farming and herding. :/

I'm in the process of buying  a few hectares of land just outside of my home city.  It's kind of strange, because I've always been a 'city boy'.  I know almost nothing about farming, but then nor do I need to know that stuff.  What I plan on doing isn't farming, per se.  It's permaculture.  See, the land I bought is almost completely wooded.  Old growth timber 70 feet high, 30 to 50 inches across, and a complete canopy.  It's downright dark in the deep woods at midday.  I plan on a 'selective cut' of timber right from the start, to balance out some of the purchase price & to open up the canopy; letting me transition the property into a 'food forest'.  There is one house on the property already, that has been heated with wood grown from the same lot for as long as the house has been there.  When I walked the lot, there were at least four deadfall trees that hadn't yet been cut up.  In other words, the growth of the trees, even matured, outpace the heat needs of the single family home in this climate.  Some pawpaws, apples, pears, etc; mixed into the forest, and in a decade or so the 'food forest' will produce a great deal of food.  Problem is, permaculure doesn't produce on a modern industrial timescale.

[Raize]

That's still pretty nice. I know plenty of people that still have wood furnaces. Folks around here will practically give it away as long as you do the chopping yourself and vote for their friends in city or county elections. When done on a national scale, it's a scandal, in a small community it's just 'being neighborly'.

I think there's a lot to be said for working towards self-sufficiency, even if you don't have to work all that hard at it.

You're may have problems getting rid of the stumps, but you might have a neighbor or someone that can help.

You're right, that's not going to be enough to feed everyone especially early on, even if it could eventually take care of you and yours. If you have a steady and reliable income otherwise, you could still probably do fine.

You might like this article:
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/04/heritage-apples-john-bunker-maine?page=1

[MoonShadow]

You're may have problems getting rid of the stumps, but you might have a neighbor or someone that can help.

Nope, got a plan.  The hardwoods I'll require that they are cut in winter, so they'll "coppicce" and grow back.  The regrowth rate is so much faster because the root system is already in place.  As for the stumps that can't regrow, or just fail, I'll cover over with a layer of good soil and use as a huglekultur bed (http://www.richsoil.com/hugelkultur/) for the replacement fruit tree guild.  Basicly the stump and roots rot in the ground, providing long term fertilizer and water retention for the seedling fruit tree.

[MoonShadow]

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/04/heritage-apples-john-bunker-maine?page=1

I can't see it, something on that site keeps crashing my browser.

[lsparrish]

Heard a guy come on Bloomberg over sirius/xm the other day that is on a liquid diet only, called it soylent, I kid you not. When he mentioned the name I thought that Bloomberg or sirius was running a spoof.

Why on earth they would call it this is beyond me considering the movie and all.... (look up soylent green if you haven't seen the movie.)

http://motherboard.vice.com/blog/drink-soylent-and-youll-never-have-to-eat-again
https://campaign.soylent.me/soylent-free-your-body

So what’s in Soylent, exactly?
Everything the body needs – that we know of, anyway – vitamins, minerals and macronutrients like essential amino acids, carbohydrates and fat. For the fat, I just use olive oil and add fish oil. The carbs are an oligosaccharide, which is like sugar, but the molecules are longer, meaning it takes longer to metabolize and gives you a steady flow of energy for a longer period of time, rather than a sugar rush from something like fructose or table sugar. I also add some non-essentials like antioxidants and probiotics and lately have been experimenting with nootropics

I haven't seen the movie, but it is simply a geeky joke on a couple of levels -- the original soylent in the book was just soy and lentils (it was a story about poverty), but then they added cannibalism and made it the main theme of the movie for dramatic purposes. Since this product was originally just a blog post about someone's homemade liquid, naming it that was probably actually a smart marketing move that helped it go viral.

Nowadays thanks to Rob's blog posts, "soylent" has become a kind of generic term for liquid diet that is supposed to meet all your nutritional needs. Rob is making his own and selling it via CrowdFunder. But there are also "open source" versions for DIYers... like this one that I just started making for myself: http://www.cookingfor20.com/2013/06/18/hacker-school-soylent-recipe/

Unlike Rob's, this one is really based on soy. I'm considering scaling up and selling it for BTC... it actually tastes really good.

[Spendulus]

.....Some pawpaws, apples, pears, etc; mixed into the forest, and in a decade or so the 'food forest' will produce a great deal of food.  Problem is, permaculure doesn't produce on a modern industrial timescale.

Most of what doesn't produce on a modern industrial timescale has been literally forgotten, or in many cases, the information didn't transfer from our North American Indians to the whites coming in.

Some examples are the uses of the yucca plants, the high nutritional value of mesquite beans, and the fact that toasted crab grass (Johnson grass) seeds are both quite tasty and nutritious.  We've also forgotten the lore involved in making it through a harsh winter by stripping out the inner bark section of trees.  In many cases the loss of this lore is because it didn't translate into large scale or mechanized production.

[Spendulus]

....Basicly the stump and roots rot in the ground, providing long term fertilizer and water retention for the seedling fruit tree.

I've yet to see this happen, in my experience with numerous species the roots grow shoots around the old stump, and you get what looks like a bush two or three years later.

[MoonShadow]

....Basicly the stump and roots rot in the ground, providing long term fertilizer and water retention for the seedling fruit tree.

I've yet to see this happen, in my experience with numerous species the roots grow shoots around the old stump, and you get what looks like a bush two or three years later.

That would be coppicing, which I already mentioned as the more likely outcome of cutting a mature standing tree in winter.  If, and only if, the stump dies; would I then bury it and use it in this manner.

[MoonShadow]

.....Some pawpaws, apples, pears, etc; mixed into the forest, and in a decade or so the 'food forest' will produce a great deal of food.  Problem is, permaculure doesn't produce on a modern industrial timescale.

Most of what doesn't produce on a modern industrial timescale has been literally forgotten, or in many cases, the information didn't transfer from our North American Indians to the whites coming in.

They have been rediscovered.  Sepp Holzer, from Austria, is generally considered the single most influential person in the modern permaculture movement.  And he didn't think of the idea, he's just a very talented farmer who's family ranch is above 1500 meters above sea level.  He either had to figure it all out, or his family farm would fail.  He has literally proven several agriculture 'facts' to be false; such as it's impossible to grow fruit trees above 1000 meters above sea level.  It only takes one example to disprove such things, while Sepp has literally grown hundreds of fruit trees to fruiting above 1500 meters, of many different species and varieties.

His family farm didn't fail.

[Rassah]

Regarding protein, why not just get it directly from roving mobs and bandits?

[MoonShadow]

Regarding protein, why not just get it directly from roving mobs and bandits?

Mmmm, Soylent Green....

That thought is like opening up a fortune cookie after a great meal, and all it says is "That wasn't chicken".

[kokojie]

Regarding protein, why not just get it directly from roving mobs and bandits?

lol you think you are the only one with guns? Good luck defeating bandits/mobs with guns.

[Rassah]

Regarding protein, why not just get it directly from roving mobs and bandits?

lol you think you are the only one with guns? Good luck defeating bandits/mobs with guns.

nets and traps. I don't have to go out and look for people to shoot, just sit and wait for them to come to me and check the traps once in a while