Bitcoin Forum

DiabloD3, you probably know better than most of us, what is going on, because you the moderator here.
I am a bitcoin noob.
Please prove it so,  I can sleep better and join some other mining pool, pay my 2-10% fees and be happy bitcoin miner.

I have no wish to be a part of a scams.

Thank you.

Its probably due to the MASSIVE amount of spam you guys have been flooding the forums with.

I hate those stupid banners too. Those make us look like idiots!
But is that the only reason?

While it is certainly possible that certain individuals have posted TripleMining advertisements in a spammy way, this is by no means a majority of the TripleMining community.  Calling a legitimate mining pool a scam simply because of a plethora of referral links is patently untrue and misleading.  If the issue is spammy referral links, warn or ban the specific violating individuals.

If referral links in signatures are what is being referred to as 'spam', I would humbly put forward that numerous other pools, sites and groups advertise using their signatures as well.  Either signatures cannot be evidence of spam in general, or it should be site policy that NO ONE can advertise ANYTHING in their signatures.  Since the later policy is not in place, at the present time it appears that any signature advertising a product, service, or site is permissible and thus cannot be considered spam.  

Now that that's cleared up . . . since the owners of Triple Mining are not engaging in Spam and the pool is set up in a fair and transparent way (and hey, I've even received mining payouts!), the arguments that the pool is a scam is without merit.  

Moderators, please remove the sticky comment that falsely claims Triple Mining is a scam, and punish any individual offenders who are posting referrals in inappropriate and unwelcome places.  Thank you.

This is why everyone is complaining:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ogDfkI9B64E/ThccMGKLudI/AAAAAAAALpw/hjuypspr8dc/s800/banner.JPG

This is the first I've heard of the 'size' of the signature being a problem.  I just grabbed my banner right from the TripleMining site.  If a mod would have approached me saying that my banner was too big, I would have fallen all over myself to reduce its size.  Because I now know that the size of the banner is the problem, I've reduced it down to one-quarter its previous size.  I hope this is acceptable, and I will encourage my peers to do the same.

Referal links in general are extremely annoying and cause a lot of spam. Referal systems invite for spammy behaviour and those who employ these systems know that. It's essentially a way to spam the internet without taking the blame.

So you'd rather have 100 different links in people's signatures rather than 100 links to basically the same location?  How is that any less spammy?

I agree that there are way too many threads that are talking about TripleMining (TM) and in the short run, looks spamy. However, MrSam only created two threads, one for the official talk, and one for the controversy.

Oldminer, wolf902 and others have created separate threads of their own accord as a marketing tool to get miners "under" them. Wolf902 has actually made TWO threads, trying to get his mini-pool started.  

These extra threads are pissing people off, coupled with the fact that "triple" mining really doesn't "triple" your income.

But that is how most of the other members of this board see it. In my opinion, they call anything they don't like a scam. But is that really the right word?  Some might argue that it is semantics. Others might not even know the meaning of that word.

I like how Auspician has his signature. It clearly states that TM is a 1% pool.  If you want to mine at a 0% pool, then you won't click the link, and you won't be "scammed." You can go on, having the benefit of mining with a pool, yet not contributing to the pool's infrastructure in any capacity. But that's your choice.

To that end, if there were too many threads on TM already, there are now going to be MORE threads. I can already see two more... Diablo's non-thread sticky, and this thread, reacting to his sticky.  How many more threads on "TripleMining" are there going to be?  Diablo is "fighting" a grease fire with water. It won't put it out, it just spreads it.

And why does he feel the need to "fight" TM?  Where has he been?  Has he actually made a post to any of the TM threads? Why hasn't he locked up pointless threads on TM?

He's saying Neither should exsist. Jackass

If TripleMining is a scam, then any pool that charges a 1% fee or greater is at least as much of a scam.

Moderators shouldn't sticky their opinions as if they are fact.

Notice how the "triple mining is a scam" sticky has been
BAN HAMMERD by Diablo-D3

I don't think it's a scam. However, the people who set up TripleMining knew this was going to happen, it's the standard consequence of a referal system. "They didn't make the threads themselves" is not a valid excuse - that's like paying some company to spam blogs with a link to your site, and then saying 'yeah well, *I* didn't spam'.

What?

+1  
If instead of creating their own minipools the referrers created their own actual pools, you'd have the same result in terms of advertisements.  So what, are you suggesting that no new pools should come into existence and the existing pools should be able to form a private cartel for their own enrichment?

And seriously, cut the attitude.  I'm sick of your derogatory and insulting comments across this board.  

The refferal system for the pool, He's saying that it's adding flood and spam and it shouldn't exsist

"I don't think it's a scam. However, the people who set up TripleMining knew this was going to happen, it's the standard consequence of a referal system. "They didn't make the threads themselves" is not a valid excuse - that's like paying some company to spam blogs with a link to your site, and then saying 'yeah well, *I* didn't spam'."

It's Spam Weather or not you opened the can of spam, Your the ones who brought it home from the store

So we're defining spam as 'multiple advertisements to the same product/service'?  In that case, just about every major company the world over is a spam junkie.  Seriously, we need a better definition than that.

I propose that we define spam as the posting of advertisements in inappropriate places or in unwelcome ways. 

Advertisements in signatures seem to be an appropriate place.  And reducing the size should remove them from the 'unwelcome' category. 

Seriously, maybe the mods should get together and impose a size limit on images in signatures if that is the problem at hand here.

Not sure if that was also a response to my post. Anyhow.

It would absolutely not be the same. 10 threads about 1 pool that everyone has already read about and everyone is already aware of, vs. 10 pools that have their own thread, and all have their own site, their own rules and fees, their own owner, etc. - that's quite a difference. Not to mention the spammy behaviour ('oh, let's post my referal link everywhere I come even if my post doesn't add any value to the thread!') and the wrongly defensive behaviour to rack up their own referal count ('don't you dare say anything bad about them') that we have also seen with the users using the TradeHill referal system.

Basically, referal systems have proven time after time that they make people act like assholes, spamming everywhere. And companies are still using them.

Is it a good marketing strategy in terms of effectiveness? Yes.
Does it make you a spammy asshole if you set up a referal system with incentives like this, even if you don't literally spam yourself? Yes.

EDIT: I have no issues with referal links in signatures. I DO have issues with people combining that 'undercover referal link' in their signature with pointless/dishonest threads or posts, just to make people pay attention to that link in your signature. And I DO have issues with threads that are just made to advertise a referal link.

I am just biting my tongue, trying not to use red herrings here.  It's fallacies like these that make the situation worse.  Jack, your opinion has merit, to some degree, but your method leaves something to be desired.

The fact that he had a banner in his sig makes triplemining a scam? I will agree is was obnoxiously large but obviously it is allowed by the forum if it was possible for him to use it.

So everyone with a tradehill referral link in their sig is a scammer too? Or is it just referrals for Triplemining that are scams, even your 1% is going to another miner rather than disappearing into some Operator's pocket. The fee system is completely transparent.

All of that aside, I think it is really messed up that a moderator would arbitrarily label MrSam and his mining pool a scam based on the fact that 2 or 3 of its ~200 miners made extra threads in this forum.

Punish the posters, remove/lock the thread, tell the poster to reduce the size of his banner (even though the site allows it), don't slander a respectable, helpful pool-owner in an attempt to destroy his pool just because you are annoyed by a couple of its members..

Before anyone else chimes in, I'm not talking about spam. I'm talking about how Diablo labeled this pool a scam. There is a difference between spam and a scam.



Sticky a thread that says Triplemining spams, sure go ahead, even though it was a tiny percentage of the people mining here.

But sticky a thread that says triplemining is scam, that's bullshit.

No, that was directed to the 'jackass' comment by JackRabiit.


I couldn't agree more.  Reasonably sized images/referral links in signatures are not a problem, as long as they don't encourage people to post inane or irrelevant comments just to have their referral image show up.  The spammy behavior is the decision of a few individuals who need to receive warnings to change their behavior or be banned.  It is not the decision of the entire TripleMining community.

As an aside, numerous companies use a referral system that doesn't result in spam.  Paypal is a great example.  The spam results not so much from the system, but from the inappropriate decisions of individual users.  Lets not put the cart before the horse.

+1

This is what pisses me off.  A moderator's opinion is law around here? Just because you have the power to post your opinion into a sticky (and not allow discussion) does not make your opinion cannon.


EDIT:


+1

Allright i understand what your laying down on the carpet.
_______________________________________________
As far as advertisements go, They exsist to Pay the Television Channels, And the Channels Pay for shows, And shows bring attention to the ads.

This is an understandable system, And it can be compared to the refferal system.
But the leading differance was stated earlier in this thread, It's the whole "10 completely individual pool threads vs 10 pool threads leading to the same pool"

People can Mute the TV and turn it off, But whenever we browse the forums They're is always a damn triple mining post(may or maynot be true at this point in time)

We get nothing out of the triple mining threads unless we're apart of triple mining, You COULD append that to "well i dont watch that channel so i get nothing from it"
But the differance is that we cant "turn off" the triple mining tv channel, It's like an ad on Every tv station.

So you would oppose Pepsi on similar grounds because they advertise on every TV station and you don't drink Pepsi? 

Honestly, I've never seen the same ad on more than Three differant channels, And now i think about it, I havent seen a Pepsi commercial in a Long time but thats besides the point. I know what your saying.

my point in this post is that im More than confident that Any product that gets advertised doesnt have Nearly Close to enough money to pay for ads on All channels, érgo i stand by what i stated before unless new info arises, And i say "no i would not" because they dont, But if they did.

IF they had the same ad on Every station, I wouldnt complain, Why? Because They are Paying the Channel Im Watching to keep running even if i hate pepsi Yes the ads would be more than annoying, But as stated before, I can just hit mute, Or Power.
Wich gives you the argument of "well get off the internet" (a bad one yeah, obviously your not gonna pull that)
Whereas i Cant seem to doge the Triple mining ads and i Do Not benefit from them in Any way shape or form

Maybe the scam part is about triplemining misleading people into thinking they'll be able to make three times more than at other pools. For someone running an average MH/s mining rig, this would mean that:

Σ(Referred Members's Income * 0.01) = Miners's Income * 0.99 * 3

For a Miner's income of 0.050:

Σ(Referred Member's Income * 0.01) = .050  * 0.99 * 3 = 0.1485
Σ(Referred Member's Income) * Σ(0.01) = 0.1485
Σ(Referred Member's Income) * 0.01 = 0.1485
Σ(Referred Member's Income) = 14.85

14.85/50 = .297 -> 30% of the reward is taken by that single pool, so a maximum of three people can get triple rewards off off 0.50 income in that round.

Its been stated pretty clearly that the reason for the name 'Triple Mining' is because that is the cap on earnings.  At most, you can make up to triple what you'd make on your own.  Honestly, if people are really that naive to believe that just by joining a particular pool they'll make triple their mining income that is their own issue, not the pools. 

Lol Yup

I know what I am about to say is a poor, blanket response, but I feel the need to offer the option.

Did you know you can turn off signatures?  It will turn off EVERYONE'S though. Kind of like turning off the TV forever, just because you don't want to see late-night infomercials. I know. But, here is how you accomplish this:

• click on Profile (http://forum.bitcoin.org/index.php?action=profile)
• the on the sidebar, find and click 'Look and Layout Preferences'
• find the 4th check-box and check it. [Don't show users' signatures.]

I have to agree on this one.

I haven't seen PayPal actively offer people incentives for refering other users... do you have a link to anything about that?

To be honest I don't think anyone was complaining about signatures, rather about the spammy posts and threads.

Yeah, I know. :-/  Just trying to shine the light on one of the options available.  If you read my other posts lately, I agree about too many threads about TM.  One might say "well, don't read the threads if you don't like what they have to say."  On the other hand (otoh), going down a list of topics (threads) and having it seem like every other one is about TM is bad.

PS: I use to be a (multi-) forum administrator for 10 years. I was pretty good at it too.  But too many forum newbies gave me a headache. (I'm talking about forum etiquette and the like.) But I digress. :)

It's actually a bit like the TV advertisement analogy made earlier. Sure, you can say 'just go get a drink while the Pepsi advertisement is running', but if the program you are watching gets interrupted every 3 minutes for a 30 second Pepsi commercial, on every channel, then it'll quickly start to be annoying, to the point where you would give up watching the program.

Disclaimer: all that I said in this thread also goes for most notably Tradehill, which has caused a significant amount of spam especially after they just launched. It's interesting how even the pyramid scheme seems to have generated less spam than TH and TM.

Let's make it VERY CLEAR here that triple mining is simply a modified pyramid scheme. As such, it's a scam for the average user.

Agreed

Except its not.  Pyramid schemes are by their nature unsustainable, relying upon new participants to pay into the system to provide earnings for older participants.  Triple Mining costs nothing upfront, and the only person who benefits from a new participant is the single person who referred them.  A two-layered payout system certainly is not a pyramid.  And since its completely sustainable it cannot be considered a pyramid scheme.

Don't believe me?  Check out the wikipedia entry defining exactly what a pyramid scheme is (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Pyramid_scheme) and you'll see that the ONLY similarity between such a scheme and TripleMining is that TM provides an incentive for referrals.

Awe my joke was missed. Auspician is correct

Oh I caught it, but only after I had begun typing up my post, so I decided to post it anyway.  :)

Actually, that is exactly what it does. Only you don't pay in USD or BTC, but in computing power.
In the end Triple Mining gets fees, so the more people that join Triple Mining, the more fees Triple Mining itself rakes in (to my understanding).
Seems like a valid argument to me.

The key word here is rely.  TripleMining can continue functioning indefinitely even if no new participants join up.  Sure, there are bonuses if new people *do* join up, but the system doesn't *rely* upon having new participants.


TripleMining redistributes all fees to its members.  Those people who are in a minipool pay their 1% fee to the person who referred them, and those people not in a minipool have their 1%'s totaled up and given away to a random miner in a weekly jackpot. 

At present, the pool operator earns nothing but the satisfaction of having a successful pool. 

You would be expending the exact same amount of processing power regardless of the pool you are in.

Almost every pool keeps the transaction fee, when you aren't taking any of the 1% you need to meet server costs somehow.

Is every pool a pyramid scheme then?

This is the last post I am going to make on the subject, then I will just go back to biting my tongue.


Triplemining it is lacking several of the things that make a pyramid scheme a pyramid scheme. In fact, it's really crazy, because if you really tear the system apart and examine it, it exactly resembles A REFERRAL SYSTEM! Wow, what shock!

It is simply a referral system. I just look at it this way, I can mine deepbit and lose 3-10%, which goes directly into Tycho's pocket, neither I or anybody else mining has any chance to see any of that percentage. Or with triplemining I can pay 1%, which goes to the person above me AND ENDS THERE. People really flip out when they see an operator that is giving the pool fee back to the pool rather than stuffing his own pockets. I don't understand this, where is the scam?

 
Out of the ~200 miners in this pool, 2 or 3 made their own threads rather than sticking to the triplemining thread. I agree it is annoying. I agree that it is unneccesary.

I disagree with the fact that Diablo used the word "scam" in his sticky to slander triplemining and sabotage MrSam's reputation in the community. He is a stand-up guy whose greatest concern is making his pool-members happy and keeping the pool running smoothly. I haven't seen a pool-owner that actually cares as much as MrSam.

 I see pool operators that put a plug for their pool in literally every post they make, yet nobody calls them "scammers".

The sticky is a really sketchy attempt to discredit and slander (technically libel I guess) MrSam and his pool, is in incredibly poor taste, and offers absolutely no evidence or explanation. Nice to see the mods pulling the kind of stuff that they are supposed to moderate against. The pool hash rate has dropped significantly since this sticky was made because people think there is some ACTUAL SCAM happening that ISN'T. Unless Diablo has some actual evidence to back up his claim, that sticky needs to be removed. Otherwise it is character assassination as well as the most uncouth thing I have seen in a long time, and that's saying something. Way to let your personal opinion affect your duties as a mod.


Maybe I should spam my referral link around the forums so we can get our hash rate back up...

For the additional earnings (the earnings that you would otherwise not get with another pool), it *does* rely on new participants.
And what are the plans for the future? How is the operator planning to monetize his pool? I fail to see how a non-profit pool would use an aggressive referal scheme like this.

See   https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_web-referrals-mrb-outside

So it's a scam because its less profitable for the pool owner than the other pools ?

Hmm good point

Then again, their business/marketing model does not exactly revolve around this referal system - whereas that of Tradehill and especially TripleMining does. Which would explain the difference in results.

Did you see me say anywhere "it's a scam because it's less profitable for the owner"? No, so don't claim I am saying that.

I am saying that it doesn't add up. "If it seems too good to be true, it usually is" still works very well as a rule of thumb. So, explain how a pool operator is using aggressive referal schemes when he would not get anything out of it?

Is there a chain of command here? Does Diablo not have a superior?

I know I said I wouldn't post anymore but I just wanted to throw this out here.

He is using a referral system to give his miners a personal incentive to recruit new miners. The only thing that makes it "aggressive" is the way that a few of the miners went about advertising their link. So in essence, what
MrSam is getting out of the referral system is additional hashing power.

Correct me if I am wrong but I believe the pool keeps the transaction fees from the block. That is the only $ MrSam would see from all of this, nearly every pool keeps these fees. So more hashing power = more solved blocks = more trans fees...

Does that satisfy you?

I definitely wouldn't consider the extra .002 btc referral bonus I am getting for this block "too good to be true".


I don't know but I am going to try to find someone to speak to about that sticky and Diablo's behavior regarding the situation. That is just unacceptable.

Saying that someone is stupid to believe that they can actually make up to 3 times more from triplemining is by far the worst arguments on this thread. Why the fuck even call yourself triplemining then? Why not just call yourself mini-pools or something not so damn misleading?

You pretty much are saying "You can't make 3 times as much, that's just the ceiling/You'd be dumb to believe that you can reach that/It's UP TO 3 times..." Then saying that you're not a scam, although the domain name implies that you're going to get triple something and make more than any other pool.

It's like if I went to get internet service from superfuckingfastinternet.com and found out their dial up. How is that not a scam? They're misleading people to believe that they're service is super fast, yet it's the slowest around.


Also, you should feel something is amiss since the triplemining people are the most fan-boyish people on this forum. If someone called BTCmine/deepbit/BTCguild/slush a scam, it'd probably end in a few post because no one needs to defend those pools since they don't need to acquire a mass of peons to mine rewards for them. You guys are acting like a gay person walked into your mega church.

The thread my diablo is no longer locked, let's take this over there

Note that triplemining is indeed keeping the block fees.  It is clearly indicated since day one on the very first page: scroll down to the bottom and read: "Donations and block fees are our only source of income to keep TripleMining going."

I am going to close this topic because most of you are still missing the point.
Please, go outside, enjoy the summer and get a tan.

Cheers!