Bitcoin Forum

I think its pretty obvious they don't belong with legitimate gambling sites. 

Maybe a sub-category is proper. IMO something needs to be done.

I agree, but I think that everything will run it's course shortly.  They are popular right now because a bunch of suckers have shown that they are willing to lose some BTC chasing that dream.  That spawns a bunch of similar sites trying to take advantage of those people.  Once people smarten up/go broke, there will be no more interest thus then no more sites.  I figure it'll take a week tops.

Even a blind man could see that these ponzis really don't belong in this section. I'm hopeful for a new sub, but I really wouldn't mind it if they just deleted all the threads (ain't gonna happen). The whole thing has become a giant conglomerate of crap posts.

As much as it sickens me to see ponzi operators rape this young community,  I don't think they they should be deleted.

However this is not not gambling,  its a scheme.  A ponzi scheme.   Gambling involves a game.

I'd like to see a "Ponzi" child-board. I use them... till they die.

Eh, I'm not too sympathetic to those who get fleeced, if your a complete idiot and you cannot learn from your mistakes then you really are asking to get screwed. Anyway, it's just frustrating to have to filter out all the ponzi garbage whenever I come here.

Another problem is the "one thread per site" rule isn't being enforced.  There are people making 3, 4, 5 threads to promote additional incarnations of their ponzi instead of keeping it confined to one thread (where everyone can see how much they owe).

Like I said, I use them till they die. I get INSANELY mad at the ones who come back to the post, and whine to the OP. "YOU DIDN'T PAY ME!!! (I always get annoyed at the ones who add "Sir" to the end.) HERE'S MY TRANSACTION ID ON THE BLOCKCHAIN! (Then the part that really annoys me) Thanks, and have a very nice day!" Like, damn! Can you not figure out you just got scammed?!

Totally agree. Ponzi schemes should be removed.

It's still a form of gambling though, and I don't think there's enough reason to create a new subforum just for them. This is really the most appropriate place for them at the moment, but that doesn't exactly mean they belong here.

It should be at games and round , since it wont take long to close down .

Obv they should not be here , its ponzi but some time it will end up a scam .

It will be better if everyone only play 1 ponzi who charge by reputate owner .

I'm also running a Ponzi. I think mainly due to manager really appreciate the program will thrive.

haha so true

Ponzis don't belong to gambling. Ponzis belong to scams section. Because sooner or later some one would be crying that he didn't get his bitcoin back.

This.

Ponzi is just lies and hope... it's not even doing anything.

i agree move them somewhere else

+1

"Ponzi" is by definition a scam.
It's amusing that the operators are being realistic in their title for their operations, and that people invest regardless.

But how can the Administration here not take any responsibility for allowing scammers to openly post, in effect, "I have a scam that I would like you to invest in. You are guaranteed to ultimately lose money"?

Who cares about what other people do with their money?

+100 Totally agree.
Sites that say the payment is guaranteed are lying but in general the Ponzi games are very fun and potentially rewarding.
It should be obvious that if you invest in the beginning you have a high chance of payback, and as time goes it decreases.

Personally I've earned a good amount and can say they usually work. Or rather some work and some are scam, that's why you should check and be careful.

That said, I'm not against a sub-forum for ponzis. I come only for them, I never tried the other games and don't care about them.

Sure, why not. It can definitely be classified as gambling. It could even be called a game, I know I am treating them as fun little games.

Hello low post count new members supporting Ponzi's in the gambling section.


Ponzi sites are not like gambling because the model is completely unsustainable.  it is called a "Scheme" and not a "game" for this reason.

by cluttering the gambling section with scam sites, i.e. refusing to police what appears to be only a small number of operators starting many new Ponzi sites each day, bitcointalk is hurting legitimate gambling sites like SealsWithClubs and BitcoinVideoCasino (which carries the #miconapproved tag and I have no financial interest in the project - their Video poker model is super-tits and they have reliably paid out for years)  but instead of furthering the world wide bitcoin brand, new users are finding this section today and thinking "oh, so bitcoin gambling sites are all scams.  Moving along"

i like the idea of a seperated ponzi/pyramid section.
but i've seen op's which try to lie about it.

afaik ponzi/pyramids are illegal in many countries. i dont knoe if the forum could get legal trouble by providing an own section.

so i prefer them to be in the gamble section (but certainly not in investing)

Hello:)
On average, gambling will cost you more than you will earn. Otherwise it will not be sustainable (no operator wants to lose).
Same thing on ponzis. It's true that they can never survive for long. It's a known fact. I'm only doing this for a week (since ponzi.io) and I've used more than 12 sites (I can list them if needed).
The fact that ponzis don't last long doesn't mean you can't use them as long as they are paying and earn money on total. It just mean some people will have to lose the same amount others are earning.

To flower1024 who said that they may be illegal. That's an important point this site owners need to consider.
For me I'm pretty sure that where I live participating in gambling (and I consider bitcoin ponzis gambling) is illegal. It doesn't bother me much.

there is a difference if you are allowed to gamble or if the forum is allowed to advertise gambling (which they do by providing a category).

the second concerns me more ;)

also lock the end ponzi to stop all topic from being bump for next 3 years

forget the conceptual debate, how about a few operators making many URLs to same copy-paste service?

https://i.imgur.com/77zFIPD.png

This is absolutely ridiculous. In a matter of days this section had gone down the tubes. Yes we need a separate ponzi section, or it should be somewhere else. I suppose it is gambling in the sense that you probably won't get your money back but it's not traditional gambling. Gambling has an expected return. These ponzis are mostly just scams.

The ones that use this area for legitimate bitcoin gambling promotion and research have suffered the most from it.  And yes, new threads daily, front page unreadable Ponzi land now.  Mods seem silent / not looking / not caring.

If it should be anywhere at all, it should be in Games & Rounds like the free BTC offers.  It has much less business being upstairs than even those free stuff threads, which have been here upstairs since I've been here.

I think it should be in some HYIP thread, though.  It's not really gambling in a "legitimate" sense.

Right, for gambling, there is a house edge, which everyone knows about (or should know about) and it remains constant, generally speaking.  With these ponzi schemes, they are like admitted failure gambling companies, like they'll last for a couple days and then you get nothing back.  In other words, they are guaranteed to be scams (unlike "regular" gambling).

Totally agree, please remove Ponzi related threads from the gambling section.

the Ponzi invasion clearly hurts legit bitcoin gambling sites the most.

Seems to me like this may even be 1 operator with many sites and many 5-post sock accounts consta-bumping all threads.  A very effective marketing strategy indeed if mods refuse to act.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=471610.0

let's see if we can get some attention to it.  Please +1 that call for mod'in

I totally agree that all this Ponzi garbage needs to go.  Ponzi operators are, by definition, outright con men and have no business in the forums.

Get out of here you scammer,  all the newbies are the same group of scammers that came here to operate this and run later

lets all flood the global moderator with this request to remove all Ponzi threads!!!!!

I just PM and posted on the mod thread,  Keep it going flood the mods so they can remove this shitty scams once and for all

Makiev we all know your in charge of all the ponzi scams and soon Mods will remove them

You don't get anything after a few days, that's true. But in the first few hours/first day you can earn something significant. I used lots of ponzi sites and with positive earnings on total. There certainly is a strategy to earn from them. But now it is more difficult than a week ago because there are too many ponzis, and some don't even get any deposit at all.

Let's have an example of "legitimate" gambling (yes I know some people won't believe there is such a thing).  You and the house agree to play blackjack against each other, dealer stands on soft 17, early surrender, double on any two.  You and the house know there's a set of rules for the game and how the play is going to go down.  You know the house edge, and the house lives up to it.  That's "fair" gambling, even though the house is always going to win in the long run barring counting (and they'll kick you out and end your play if you do it).

In a Ponzi, you're basically limited by when the house decides to rip you off and take the money and go away.

The difference is that one is a game and the other is just a plain old scam.

A "game of chance" where the "chance" involved is just how much of a criminal you're playing against is not a game, it's just a scam.

Doesn't belong on gambling.  Get rid of it or move it to some "I am a retard" forum.

Full disclosure: I'm currently developing my own ponzi site.

Ponzis which are not clearly described as a ponzi should be removed without fail. In my opinion, Ponzis are just another form of gambling; some win but the majority to lose, just like any other gamble.

Ponzi operators which run away with the coins should be banned, but not everyone should be tarred with the same brush.


Is that not the same with anything? Any purchase\sale\bet could end up being a scam. This is not unique to ponzis.

Agree. An outright ban is probably too harsh due to free speech considerations, but I'd definitely move them into a sub-category with maybe a sticky thread at the top warning people about them. That said, I think that games of skill (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/22/nyregion/poker-is-more-a-game-of-skill-than-of-chance-a-judge-rules.html?_r=0) ought to have a separate section, too.  Poker seems to have more in common with games like backgammon and chess than it does roulette, dice, etc.

Ponzi schemes are per definition a scam and puts legitimate sites in this section in a bad light. Hopefully, the mods here can take action and at least move these sites into another section.

Why are these a scam?

They are only a scam when they are advertised as something they aren’t. E.g. a guaranteed 150% return on your investment.

If people are fully aware of what they are getting involved with - i.e. it could collapse at any time, just like a betting site if it had to make massive payouts, I dont see any problem with it.

It's very much a game of luck. (Will you get your payout before it goes bust.)

I dont see ponzis, if sold as a ponzi, a scam. I think too many people associate ponzis with scams due to too many "owners" running away with the wallet.

Exactly. Scams are deceiving. Advertising something as "a Ponzi" is the exact opposite. People who participate should know and appreciate the risks involved. Eventually there will be losers.

Because there's no pre-arranged set of rules, no stated house edge, no provable fairness, no nothing.  "I'll just steal all your money whenever I feel like it" isn't even a numbers racket, it's just a scam.

Even outright sucker games like keno at a casino have a measurable house edge and a set of rules even a punter can understand.

Is this seriously beyond your comprehension?  Have you considered getting help?

wrong, SwC player numbers are unaffected.  (very small % of overlap between a poker player and a ponzi player.  Maybe Tennis only...)


Vortuarackne, I appreciate your arguments.  They seem to come from a rational place.  Consider this question:

how does a Ponzi usually end? 

Are expectations managed properly? 

Think about the expectations players have with other legitimate gambling games like bitzino, just-dice, sealswithclubs, and bitcoinvideopoker. 
(not expectations in terms of win-or-lose, but expectations like the rules of the game, how payouts will be handled, how the game is scored, when it ends, etc)

I agree that a game that clearly states "You only get paid if the next guy sends coins"  and a clear "reset" time is defined (maybe after 24 hours of no sends) could function as an "honest ponzi" (and I agree that would only be similar to a Ponzi, not an actual ponzi where the entire underlying business is misrepresented) maybe we need a name like a "hope next guy sends"

either way, it's not like the other gamblings.  sub-cat for sure.  Nevermind this appears to be only a handful of operators copy-pasting sites.

You're describing a scammer, not a ponzi scheme. When I play Ponzi's I imagine them as a massive game of Jenga. Eventually it will fall and thats ok with me.


Me personally, I assess each ponzi individually, is the post well presented, explained in a fluent manner? Is their site professional looking, are they forthcoming with payments\payouts\transaction IDs or do players have to continuously chase the owner for payouts etc?

There have been some professionally operated ponzis recently which have worked well for a couple of days (which is all you can really expect from a Ponzi), but there have been others which look like they have been put together in someone’s bedroom within 5 minutes which I wouldnt touch with a barge poll.

I think the players need to take some responsibility too and admit that eventually the ponzi will collapse and they could lose some, if not all of their money in the process. If that is something they are happy with (and understand), then I dont see any problem whatsoever with Ponzis, they can be quite fun for some people.

Like another member already stated, what's the difference between these Ponzi sites and all the other btc gambling sites? Yes, the gambling sites have rules and such but in the end users will lose money on either side.

I don't understand why you'd have to hold someone's hand and say "No, we shouldn't gamble on that site, we could lose money." Players should be aware of the possibility of losing--that's why it's called gambling.

Ponzis are not even gambling THEY'RE WORSE.

The one who runs the sceme gets to set the rules and of course he can just grab the coins and run at any given moment.
People don't want to learn

Theres a guy which keep on creating new ponzi with new account ...

If that is indeed the case they need identifying and removing from the forum. They are the type who should be penalised, not the ponzi community which seems to be growing on here at the minute.

All members need to do is keep PM the Mqge mod about this, and keep PM them daily so they can see how sick we are seeing new ponzi scams being created by people who probably pre organized this scam a few weeks ago. 

I believe there should be a separate section for risky investments / HYIPs.

Biz dont you see whats going on, A group of conmen working at a internet cafe found a cool forum and brought there scams here.  This is what happened and no time you will see it get more flooded. The Mods need to do something Fast.  They need to make a mod who can take action against TOS and Ponzi scams cause they are not involved in the forums, or maybe need more mods.  Im gonna talk with a mod I know on here and see what I can do to get this to the top Mod.

It seems clear the mods don't care very much about the gambling section. 

I'm thinking it's time for a forum demonstration.  A protest if you will. 

First thoughts (just spit-ballin' here.  Feel free to focus this / throw out other ideas):

-- 10x posts with the same subject.  "The People of Marketplace/gambling demand removal of Ponzi and Ponzi-esque Sites"
-- other points to list:
---- it appears only few operators are opening many new sites to clutter the front page
---- it appears many of the ponzi sites are copy-pasted to new URLs almost daily
---- the Ponzi game of "next guy needs to send for me to get paid" is not classified as a gambling game.  It is something similar for sure, but we don't want it here.

-- possibly doing this in meta as well to get some attention to the growing problem

I think this is the way to go.

You are obviously an idiot if you've missed how many of these schemes are just outright scams from the outset and the guy running it just waltzes off without warning.

Good Idea but there are already 2 other threads and yet and no action has been taken I did get a response from Mage, says he dont see anything wrong and they will die shortly, but if they get just one person from this sight they will keep doing it cause just to make 5 dollars in there poor country can get them a week of food, They will keep doing it.  I think we should flood the Mods With PMS  and the head Mod.  This is the only way we can get this moving faster. before many get scammed

I do think all ponzis should go into some other forum. They've just taken off like crazy and there's no way to tell if one is a scam or not, at least for a beginner.  But I fear the spamming idea will hurt my credibility on the forum.  I'm not sure what else to do.  We can certainly PM admins but I doubt that will do anything.

Pretty embarassing that many are same operator. 

if anyone is familiar with them, can you please lead a "report to moderator" charge at the ones that are simply copy-pastes?  at least try the one-thread-per-site ruling, although akin to nailing Capone for tax evasion, may be the only way to stop this nonsense. 

either way I will keep fighting it, this place is too important for these early stages of btc gambling.

Within the next few minutes I will be moving all of the ponzis that are clearly based on the same script and are not innovative into Games and Rounds. I do apologize, but it wasn't previously mentioned to me that these all use the same script despite using a different domain name. I see this practice as no different than Bitcoinduit, so it will receive the same treatment.

As I mentioned in my sticky, the letter of the rule doesn't matter. All I care about is the spirit of the rule.

Ok, I think that I got everything that was a direct dupe off of the first two pages. Let me know if I missed any or if I made a mistake.

Doing the lord's work.

Alas, most of the ponzi sites are legitimately unique. They might use the same backend, but the websites themselves are totally custom.

I believe nisaai deserves to stay where it was. I messaged Maged about that.

There are right now three ponzi threads at the top of the gambling section.


The spirit of the rule is that ponzi schemes and pyramid schemes are not gambling.  Thus then they do not belong in the gambling section.  Please relegate these schemes to the far corner of bct.

I couldn't agree more with this gentlemen.

I'm also agree with him. They not belong in gambling section

They are not , and the ponzi is getting more and more . i am sure the owner have good profit from it since he can invest early or get out of it if theres anything .

Agreed, ponzi schemes are not gambling. Thus, they should be moved to a more appropriate section, or a new sub-section.

I honestly dont understand why it cant be classed as a gamble. Some players win, the majority lose.

The crossover comes between an actually Ponzi scheme, which by definition will eventually die, and an owner who is just looking to make a quick buck by running off with a high wallet balance.

Gambling involves a stated definition of odds.  When I play blackjack, I know the odds.  When I play craps, I know the odds.  When I play VP or slots, I'm legally allowed to know the hold percentage.  Dice game have stated odds.  Shit, when you buy scratchers, you can look on the back and see the odds.

Schemes don't have odds.  Because they are not fair.  If they said "82.5% of the time, you will 1.2x your money", and had a provably fair way to decide who won and lost, that would be gambling.  They don't.  You just have to hope that the owner decides to not run off with your money AND that enough suckers will invest after you to get a return.  That's not gambling.

More new ponzi everyday, They gonna have to start blocking any threads with ponzi in them, this freaking nuts.  Easy for them to make these cheap websites

Here is a link to show why they should be removed [Imgur](https://i.imgur.com/eO3lq9G.png?1)  Violating TOS

I'd say it's a pretty big gamble. It's more of a gamble than a legitimate investment opportunity that's for sure. If they're allowed or tolerated they should have their own section I think.

If bumping is a violation of the TOS, then that should be enforced with every forum member, not just ponzi operators. You really are scraping the barrel now.

It already has been against other members.  That's why the free offers some site operators have that require bumping the thread have been moved to Games and Rounds as of months ago.  This should be enforced against Ponzis too.

Yeah I took action against a casino who also was bumping there thread, so you should follow the rules and stop bumping your thread.

It is. You're meant to only bump once a day and delete your previous bumps.

The answer to your question, should be yes. All ponzi either good or bad it needs to be a sub category.

I've cleaned my thread up. Sorry, I didnt know of that rule.

Not many people do, most rules aren't really explicit round here anyway  ;D.

All ponzi's should be in the scam section. LOL

lol very true

more ponzi have been opened by newbies, I see a huge scam running, dont know how many idiots they think they will grab,  most newbies are the posters, I wont be surprised its a group of conmen sitting in the cafe sending each other coins with premade wallets

There are so many ponzi sites. There should be a sub-section because ponzis remain gambling. Actually, make a "Scam Risk" section as most of them are made by newbies to scam people.

Ponzis is not gambling, They been categorized as scams, cause you dont know who really is putting money into them, they can be run by a group on cons sending money with made up accounts and wallets.

I thought people on this forum are smart  ;)

Nope you are wrong  ;)

The question is, what is more bad? The idiots who got trapped by the scammer, or the ppl who support the scammer?

PONZIs polluting the category

It would be great to have separate section for them!

yep all i see is ponizs

You're right. Obvious scams should be separated from legitimate gambling sites.

These are the problem -
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=477648.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=475446.0

New ponzis opening up stating they are trusted\secure etc with no proof. Threads using such false advertising techniques should be removed, period.

These are the types which give the overall ponzi community a worse name. Sure, Ponzis are not for everyone, but legitimate ponzis can be fun, until the community is finally ruined by the fly-by-night types as listed above.

Exactly. The scammers posting [TRUSTED] in their thread and posting proof from sockpuppets need to be stopped.

Likewise, thread jacking should result in bans too;

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=474746.msg5277738#msg5277738
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=477648.msg5277692#msg5277692

Clearly I have no problem with Ponzis, but such posts are just adding to the junk.

It can be hard to tell sockpuppets from real niave newbs though. I'd suspect most of these Ponzi operators use sockpuppets to get the ball rolling at least.


Ponzi Community haha. As if it could get an even worse name  ;D.

Most people are aware that sending btcs to ponzi is like tossing the coin you may get them back and you may not.
I played in few ponzies, because why not? The amount of BTCs I've invested was not huge. Few times I earned money, few times I lost but right now I have made pretty much huge profit of 1btc. The problem is that there are so many ponzies and people are trying to play on every one of them instead of sending btc to one, "trusted" (sic!) one.

At the moment I think that http://120ponzi.yolasite.com/ may live quite a long time considering the other ponzies, it's working quite fast and might become even better than the first one (remember? people send there more thant 300btcs!  :o).