should Ponzi's be in the gambling section?

[iznoP]

If it should be anywhere at all, it should be in Games & Rounds like the free BTC offers.  It has much less business being upstairs than even those free stuff threads, which have been here upstairs since I've been here.

I think it should be in some HYIP thread, though.  It's not really gambling in a "legitimate" sense.

Right, for gambling, there is a house edge, which everyone knows about (or should know about) and it remains constant, generally speaking.  With these ponzi schemes, they are like admitted failure gambling companies, like they'll last for a couple days and then you get nothing back.  In other words, they are guaranteed to be scams (unlike "regular" gambling).

You don't get anything after a few days, that's true. But in the first few hours/first day you can earn something significant. I used lots of ponzi sites and with positive earnings on total. There certainly is a strategy to earn from them. But now it is more difficult than a week ago because there are too many ponzis, and some don't even get any deposit at all.

[darkmule]

You don't get anything after a few days, that's true. But in the first few hours/first day you can earn something significant. I used lots of ponzi sites and with positive earnings on total. There certainly is a strategy to earn from them. But now it is more difficult than a week ago because there are too many ponzis, and some don't even get any deposit at all.

Let's have an example of "legitimate" gambling (yes I know some people won't believe there is such a thing).  You and the house agree to play blackjack against each other, dealer stands on soft 17, early surrender, double on any two.  You and the house know there's a set of rules for the game and how the play is going to go down.  You know the house edge, and the house lives up to it.  That's "fair" gambling, even though the house is always going to win in the long run barring counting (and they'll kick you out and end your play if you do it).

In a Ponzi, you're basically limited by when the house decides to rip you off and take the money and go away.

The difference is that one is a game and the other is just a plain old scam.

A "game of chance" where the "chance" involved is just how much of a criminal you're playing against is not a game, it's just a scam.

Doesn't belong on gambling.  Get rid of it or move it to some "I am a retard" forum.

[Vortuarackne]

Full disclosure: I'm currently developing my own ponzi site.

Ponzis which are not clearly described as a ponzi should be removed without fail. In my opinion, Ponzis are just another form of gambling; some win but the majority to lose, just like any other gamble.

Ponzi operators which run away with the coins should be banned, but not everyone should be tarred with the same brush.

You don't get anything after a few days, that's true. But in the first few hours/first day you can earn something significant. I used lots of ponzi sites and with positive earnings on total. There certainly is a strategy to earn from them. But now it is more difficult than a week ago because there are too many ponzis, and some don't even get any deposit at all.

Let's have an example of "legitimate" gambling (yes I know some people won't believe there is such a thing).  You and the house agree to play blackjack against each other, dealer stands on soft 17, early surrender, double on any two.  You and the house know there's a set of rules for the game and how the play is going to go down.  You know the house edge, and the house lives up to it.  That's "fair" gambling, even though the house is always going to win in the long run barring counting (and they'll kick you out and end your play if you do it).

In a Ponzi, you're basically limited by when the house decides to rip you off and take the money and go away.

The difference is that one is a game and the other is just a plain old scam.

A "game of chance" where the "chance" involved is just how much of a criminal you're playing against is not a game, it's just a scam.

Doesn't belong on gambling.  Get rid of it or move it to some "I am a retard" forum.

Is that not the same with anything? Any purchase\sale\bet could end up being a scam. This is not unique to ponzis.

[boot52]

I think its pretty obvious they don't belong with legitimate gambling sites. 

Maybe a sub-category is proper. IMO something needs to be done.

Agree. An outright ban is probably too harsh due to free speech considerations, but I'd definitely move them into a sub-category with maybe a sticky thread at the top warning people about them. That said, I think that games of skill ought to have a separate section, too.  Poker seems to have more in common with games like backgammon and chess than it does roulette, dice, etc.

[BitcoinCasino.org]

Ponzi schemes are per definition a scam and puts legitimate sites in this section in a bad light. Hopefully, the mods here can take action and at least move these sites into another section.

[Vortuarackne]

Ponzi schemes are per definition a scam and puts legitimate sites in this section in a bad light. Hopefully, the mods here can take action and at least move these sites into another section.

Why are these a scam?

They are only a scam when they are advertised as something they aren’t. E.g. a guaranteed 150% return on your investment.

If people are fully aware of what they are getting involved with - i.e. it could collapse at any time, just like a betting site if it had to make massive payouts, I dont see any problem with it.

It's very much a game of luck. (Will you get your payout before it goes bust.)

I dont see ponzis, if sold as a ponzi, a scam. I think too many people associate ponzis with scams due to too many "owners" running away with the wallet.

[Vortuarackne]

None of these games that call themselves a "ponzi" are actually Ponzi schemes. I haven't checked them all out but the ones I have looked at are not scams any more than the standard gambling games.

I think the real reason that people (especially Micon) are complaining is that these games are competing with their gambling businesses.

Exactly. Scams are deceiving. Advertising something as "a Ponzi" is the exact opposite. People who participate should know and appreciate the risks involved. Eventually there will be losers.

[darkmule]

Ponzi schemes are per definition a scam and puts legitimate sites in this section in a bad light. Hopefully, the mods here can take action and at least move these sites into another section.

Why are these a scam?

Because there's no pre-arranged set of rules, no stated house edge, no provable fairness, no nothing.  "I'll just steal all your money whenever I feel like it" isn't even a numbers racket, it's just a scam.

Even outright sucker games like keno at a casino have a measurable house edge and a set of rules even a punter can understand.

Is this seriously beyond your comprehension?  Have you considered getting help?

[Micon]

I think the real reason that people (especially Micon) are complaining is that these games are competing with their gambling businesses.

wrong, SwC player numbers are unaffected.  (very small % of overlap between a poker player and a ponzi player.  Maybe Tennis only...)

I dont see ponzis, if sold as a ponzi, a scam.

Vortuarackne, I appreciate your arguments.  They seem to come from a rational place.  Consider this question:

how does a Ponzi usually end? 

Are expectations managed properly? 

Think about the expectations players have with other legitimate gambling games like bitzino, just-dice, sealswithclubs, and bitcoinvideopoker. 
(not expectations in terms of win-or-lose, but expectations like the rules of the game, how payouts will be handled, how the game is scored, when it ends, etc)

I agree that a game that clearly states "You only get paid if the next guy sends coins"  and a clear "reset" time is defined (maybe after 24 hours of no sends) could function as an "honest ponzi" (and I agree that would only be similar to a Ponzi, not an actual ponzi where the entire underlying business is misrepresented) maybe we need a name like a "hope next guy sends"

either way, it's not like the other gamblings.  sub-cat for sure.  Nevermind this appears to be only a handful of operators copy-pasting sites.

[Vortuarackne]

Ponzi schemes are per definition a scam and puts legitimate sites in this section in a bad light. Hopefully, the mods here can take action and at least move these sites into another section.

Why are these a scam?

Because there's no pre-arranged set of rules, no stated house edge, no provable fairness, no nothing.  "I'll just steal all your money whenever I feel like it" isn't even a numbers racket, it's just a scam.

Even outright sucker games like keno at a casino have a measurable house edge and a set of rules even a punter can understand.

Is this seriously beyond your comprehension?  Have you considered getting help?

You're describing a scammer, not a ponzi scheme. When I play Ponzi's I imagine them as a massive game of Jenga. Eventually it will fall and thats ok with me.

I think the real reason that people (especially Micon) are complaining is that these games are competing with their gambling businesses.

wrong, SwC player numbers are unaffected.  (very small % of overlap between a poker player and a ponzi player.  Maybe Tennis only...)

I dont see ponzis, if sold as a ponzi, a scam.

Vortuarackne, I appreciate your arguments.  They seem to come from a rational place.  Consider this question:

how does a Ponzi usually end? 

Are expectations managed properly? 

Think about the expectations players have with other legitimate gambling games like bitzino, just-dice, sealswithclubs, and bitcoinvideopoker. 
(not expectations in terms of win-or-lose, but expectations like the rules of the game, how payouts will be handled, how the game is scored, when it ends, etc)

I agree that a game that clearly states "You only get paid if the next guy sends coins"  and a clear "reset" time is defined (maybe after 24 hours of no sends) could function as an "honest ponzi" (and I agree that would only be similar to a Ponzi, not an actual ponzi where the entire underlying business is misrepresented) maybe we need a name like a "hope next guy sends"

either way, it's not like the other gamblings.  sub-cat for sure.  Nevermind this appears to be only a handful of operators copy-pasting sites.

Me personally, I assess each ponzi individually, is the post well presented, explained in a fluent manner? Is their site professional looking, are they forthcoming with payments\payouts\transaction IDs or do players have to continuously chase the owner for payouts etc?

There have been some professionally operated ponzis recently which have worked well for a couple of days (which is all you can really expect from a Ponzi), but there have been others which look like they have been put together in someone’s bedroom within 5 minutes which I wouldnt touch with a barge poll.

I think the players need to take some responsibility too and admit that eventually the ponzi will collapse and they could lose some, if not all of their money in the process. If that is something they are happy with (and understand), then I dont see any problem whatsoever with Ponzis, they can be quite fun for some people.

[oprahwindfury]

Like another member already stated, what's the difference between these Ponzi sites and all the other btc gambling sites? Yes, the gambling sites have rules and such but in the end users will lose money on either side.

I don't understand why you'd have to hold someone's hand and say "No, we shouldn't gamble on that site, we could lose money." Players should be aware of the possibility of losing--that's why it's called gambling.

[alani123]

Ponzis are not even gambling THEY'RE WORSE.

The one who runs the sceme gets to set the rules and of course he can just grab the coins and run at any given moment.
People don't want to learn

[Beymond]

Theres a guy which keep on creating new ponzi with new account ...

[Vortuarackne]

Theres a guy which keep on creating new ponzi with new account ...

If that is indeed the case they need identifying and removing from the forum. They are the type who should be penalised, not the ponzi community which seems to be growing on here at the minute.

[zolace]

All members need to do is keep PM the Mqge mod about this, and keep PM them daily so they can see how sick we are seeing new ponzi scams being created by people who probably pre organized this scam a few weeks ago. 

[b!z]

I believe there should be a separate section for risky investments / HYIPs.

[zolace]

Biz dont you see whats going on, A group of conmen working at a internet cafe found a cool forum and brought there scams here.  This is what happened and no time you will see it get more flooded. The Mods need to do something Fast.  They need to make a mod who can take action against TOS and Ponzi scams cause they are not involved in the forums, or maybe need more mods.  Im gonna talk with a mod I know on here and see what I can do to get this to the top Mod.

[Micon]

It seems clear the mods don't care very much about the gambling section. 

I'm thinking it's time for a forum demonstration.  A protest if you will. 

First thoughts (just spit-ballin' here.  Feel free to focus this / throw out other ideas):

-- 10x posts with the same subject.  "The People of Marketplace/gambling demand removal of Ponzi and Ponzi-esque Sites"
-- other points to list:
---- it appears only few operators are opening many new sites to clutter the front page
---- it appears many of the ponzi sites are copy-pasted to new URLs almost daily
---- the Ponzi game of "next guy needs to send for me to get paid" is not classified as a gambling game.  It is something similar for sure, but we don't want it here.

-- possibly doing this in meta as well to get some attention to the growing problem

[pixelized]

I believe there should be a separate section for risky investments / HYIPs.

I think this is the way to go.

[darkmule]

You obviously haven't looked at these "ponzi" games at all. There is a prearranged set of rules: a player gets 125% back if enough money is paid within 24 hours to pay the player. There is a stated house edge: the house gets to keep whatever is left over. It is provably fair: all transactions are recorded on the block chain.

You are obviously an idiot if you've missed how many of these schemes are just outright scams from the outset and the guy running it just waltzes off without warning.