Bitcoin Forum

Theymos is accepting illegal ads from a ponzi scheme - makebtc.org.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=450959.20

It's obviously a ponzi scheme. I'm not sure what his jurisdiction is, but it is most likely illegal to have a ponzi scheme.

I pm-ed him and got no response.

If the website was labeled as gambling it would be legal in some jurisdictions. However it is not.

As he is making money from advertising the scam, he is morally and legally responsible for it.

But there is a disclaimer! So it's ok  ::)

If it's so obvious its a ponzi, then how can it be a scam?

I'm curious, do you feel morally satisfied when casino's post "Gamble Responsibly" signs? Or when your cell phone company condescendingly informs you "It can wait." with regards to sending text messages while in a car? Maybe if the owner of this website put a similar slogan stamped onto the ads, it would be alright with you?

If you're against all gambling, then I'd appreciate if your efforts were directed toward government sanctioned gambling. Lets put this in perspective. Millions dump billions into it and very few get anything substantial back. Someone produces small potatoes gambling that doesn't have explicit government approval and people freak out?

It is obvious to me. It isn't obvious to others. I've got experience (from observation - I've never fallen for a ponzi scheme).  Check out my old posts on Pirate's ponzi.

What's so illegal about the ads?

Now at least the donated bitcoins will be useful when the forum will get legal trouble. I can understand not removing the ponzi from the gambling section (even if it should not be tolerated) but now this forum really looks like a scammer haven.

https://i.imgur.com/UScw9KK.png

That ponzi scheme is actually really cool! Works so well and instant payouts.

Assisting people engaged in fraud is illegal.

In most countries, the "I did not know it was illegal to do X" does not work as a defense.  And in this case, Theymos knows its illegal.

The mods here are not investigators who have time to determine the legitimacy of an offer. It is buyer beware with bitcoin. You seem to have done your homework and protected yourself. Others will need to do the same.

That is the "I'm not guilty because I didn't know it was against the law" argument. It's like saying "I didn't know the white powder was an illegal drug".  Good luck with that one.

And for $1000 of advertising, he could spare 1 hour to investigate it.

It's his prerogative to accept ads from anyone he chooses, whether we like it or not
Up to us to do adequate due diligence

I think it is pretty funny how people are defending the right of this forum to promote fraud and mislead people.  Given the fact that fraud, hacking, and ponzis are already systematic in bitcoin - you'd think people wouldn't want to encourage them.

It's all fine and good until you lose your own money - just see all the people who lost money on MtGox.

This post was originally in scam accusations.  I'm not sure why it was moved.

For the record, I am accusing Theymos of being lazy or greedy and by his acceptance of fraudulent advertising to be promoting scamming.  The only other person I've accused before was Pirate.  And I've displayed concern about Bitcoin Rain and Patrick Harnett.  I'm batting 100% so far.

I think that supporting the small scam that makebtc.org is isn't the worst thing in the world, but it's not the kind of thing I'd take a risk on.

You are welcome to sell drugs here as long as they are legal where you are selling them. Online Gambling is illegal in a lot of places too, its up for the users not to engage in any activity that is illegal in their jurisdiction. The world is a big place with a lot of differing laws. Theymos knows that not everyone here is from the U.S, E.U, Turkmenistan, you name it. You can't lump what is legal/illegal to the entire world. If it is indeed a ponzi, and ponzis are illegal in your jurisdiction, don't partake. If you live somewhere where they don't care if you want to invest your money into a ponzi, go for it.

Dude, did you even read the disclaimer below the ad?
You don't have to click it, you don't have to use ponzis.
Every sensible person know there's a risk with ponzis
just like gambling.

Also, if you don't like the banner and you're using adblock, just right click it and block it, and perhaps set a filter for all of those banners on this website.

Yup adblock is really helpful on that kind of banners and comercials.

The problem is when a mod checks out an offer that later turns out to be a scam. Then everyone will be mad because they had an expectation that the adds are vetted. You just have to do your homework here.

Hint: Anything except buying bitcoin at market price should be considered a scam, IMO.

Why would you expect that the ads are for 100% legitimate sites when the disclaimer 5 milimeters below it tells you that it might not be?
Gee wiz.

it's hardly misleading or fraudulent when the ad clearly states it's a ponzi.


no deception here ::)

How can you be stupid enough to invest in a ponzi and then blame whoever linked it for your stupidity? What the hell.

-Bitcoin?  Isn't that the weird money they use it fo drugz and shit?
-No way bro, that's totally last year.  It's all srs and legit nao.  They use it to Ponzi!

Not only is advertising Ponzi schemes horrible PR for Bitcoin, it's also illegal for an American operating from American soil.

You had to make a new account to post this? Psch.
If you don't like it, get out. Simple as that. Bitcoin
already has a 'bad reputation' in mainstream media
cause people connect it to illegal actions.

Ponzis and scams will exist as long as Bitcoin does. With that being said I don't think this site should promote them.

I'm all for viewing banner advertisements to support the forum, but the moment I saw a known Ponzi scheme was being advertised was the moment I disabled ads. Regardless of the common libertarian and caveat emptor ideals on this forum, it's still concerning that anything can be advertised so long as Theymos is paid. At the very least, it's bad PR for the forums.

So with this on the table, I've got a question:
If a person were to create a piece of malware that does a drive-by install by clicking on a link, would they be able to advertise that link so long as they put in the disclaimer "Clicking on this link gives you malware"? If not, why not?

I absolutely think they would have every right to advertise it with a disclaimer.
Without one? No way. But if you're stupid enough to click it, it's your fault.
They're not the ones giving you the virus, your stupidity is.

Oic.  If I don't like people shitting up Bitcoin, I shoud stfu, walk away, and let the shittening continue?
Lol no.

*Try to understand that it's not just my coin that gets lousy press because of this stupidity.  The same press hurts your coin too.  The more bad press, the more excuses for regulators to jump in and regulate the fuck out of us.  I'm not here to stop people from pulling cons, all I'm asking is we take down the billboards that advertise those cons.

The day mainstream media writes about bitcointalk, and that it's advertising ponzis…
I don't see that day within the nearest 5 years, to say the least.
There are some reports about bitcoins in mainstream media at the moment, but
it's always outdated / half-wrong fact, and every single article connects
bitcoins to drug trade.
When we reach a point when mainstream media cares about a bitcoin ponzi or a
bitcoin forum, bitcoins will already have passed the stage of being just an internet
currency for a small % of the world.

TL;DR:
Mainstream press already bashes Bitcoin, so let's make sure the bashing's justified -- give them real facts!
And let's make sure it's something really pathetic and embarrassing, like
"We're not greedy idiots, we built a closed economy!  We sell Ponzi schemes.  To each other!"

While I appreciate your opinion, I'm actually looking for answers from someone who has a deeper understanding of how advertisements are chosen (e.g. moderators).


Technically only partially true. Their assistance promoting the malware may constitute aiding and abetting in known criminal activity.

Aha, I read your question a bit wrong, I thought you wanted public opinions on if it was morally right to have that as an advertisement, rather than an actual question to the people in charge if they would allow it. My bad.

Wow, how much money did you lose to a ponzi mate? You're in denial about your own responsibility.
There are people buying drugs with US dollars as well as there are people buying drugs with BTC, the difference is that mainstream media always jumps to the conclusion that things they don't understand are dangerous. Illegal or not, I'm 100% sure ponzi schemes exists with 'real currency' investments, even where they are in fact illegal. Does that say USD are dangerous and are given a bad reputation? No.

This forum ban blackmarkets advertisement or even link posting. Why would it allows ponzi schemes? If the forum really wants to abide to libertarian philosophy then it should allow blackmarkets as well. Some of those drugs and weapons might even be legal in some jurisdiction.

The test of aiding and abetting for SEC
To establish aiding and abetting liability, the SEC must show the existence of a securities law violation by the primary party, knowledge of this violation on the part of the aider and abettor, and “substantial assistance” by the aider and abettor in the achievement of the primary violation.

Does advertising ponzi's allow for "substantial assistance"?

What do you think the SEC would say about that?

I have lost exactly zero coins to Ponzis.  I also have never been raped, but (and you might find this odd) I'm against promoting rape on this forum.

No, Ponzis aren't unique to Bitcoin.  But if you must ape degenerate stuff from the fiat world, please do so quietly.  Idiots promoting their petty crimez shit things up for everyone using Bitcoin, not just you.

You can sell whatever you want as long as it's legal in the buyer's and the seller's country.

...and now we gots the new, improved disclaimer:
http://s18.postimg.org/lanqpg8u1/Capture.jpg

I think it's a bit ridiculous that you'd put that disclaimer rather than simply remove the ad. Just add a few lines to terms of conditions of the advertisement auctions to deal with situations like this.

Its also actually illegal to wear masks in public in a lot of countries. Shall we ban people selling masks in order to preserve Bitcoin's good name? Some laws are stupid and vary from place to place. If you are in the U.S or another country where ponzi schemes are illegal, don't use them. If you are in Zimbobwe, the Congo, or a few other assorted countries where no one cares about ponzi schemes, have at it. The forums doesn't restrict content just because its illegal or "bad" in someone's jurisdiction, Bitcoin is a global project, it would be stupid to limit it based on individual country's jurisdictions. If you want to obey your country's laws, great. Don't expect people not in your country to also respect those laws.

as most countries forbid advertising of illegal stuff (eg weed, ponzis) it is also important where the bitcointalk server resides

but i do totally agree with you about self-responsability

No cental authority remember?

Who said that ponzi scemes run by bitcoin are illegal?  ::)

at least the forum does have enough money, so i'd be interested to see the outcome if anyone tries suing them

@SaltySpitoon
I don't know if Ponzi schemes are legal in Congo or Zimbabwe, and I doubt you do, either.  This sort of bottom-scraping mentality, "It might be legal somewhere, so Bitcoin's all over that shit" is not the image I wish to project, how about you?

Accepting Ponzi ads on a pro-Bitcoin forum is stupid in just about every way.  Just weigh the extra bitcoins the ads bring (which this forum needs like a lardass needs another bucket of KFC) against the potential for negative attention -- from the press, various TLAs, and the forum's own members.  Possibly running afoul of laws while making us look retarded is just the icing on the cake.

They are (google). The image I don't want to project is that we must take all of the laws of every country and become so restricted that Bitcoins can't be used for anything. I consider Ponzi schemes to be gambling. Online gambling is illegal in a ton of countries too, so should we ban all gambling sites from advertising as well? I resent it when government regulations place restrictions to "protect" me because I'm too stupid to make my own decisions. It is up to the users to make sure what they are doing isn't illegal in their own jurisdiction if they care, it is up to the users to do adequet research to make sure that their odds of winning in the ponzi scheme are on par with their expectations, and we shouldn't have to filter content for people because they aren't smart enough to make their own decisions. If you don't like ponzis, don't use them, if you don't like gambling, don't use them, if you don't like smoking/drinking, don't use those substances, but why disallow content that others may want to see/use just because some don't wish to? If you make the choice not to participate in ponzis, great. But what if I want to participate in ponzis? (I don't, I don't like gambling at all) but why should I say that you cant?

http://puu.sh/7qht9.png
(Ponzi falls under this category)

Not sure what you wish to suggest by posting a list of countries where Ponzis are illegal -- does it even claim to be an exhaustive list?*
If you really wish to get down into the mud, I'll point out that "..the act of buying, selling, or offering to sell something is enough to be considered transacting business and to convey jurisdiction."
 /backyard lawyering.

If you feel that refusing to advertise a product you don't agree with is a form of censorship, that's simply absurd.  Theymos is free to accept or deny any ad.  Forbes, for instance, does not advertise giant dildos, which are undeniably more legal than Ponzis.   Do you consider that odd?

*edit: does the word "including" give you a hint?

The forum has MORE than enough money. But I'm still grateful those guys are still runing the forum no matter what. But maybe, I say maybe they should put some more effort on protecting the forum users. This is the heard of your community, people come here to learn. Ponzi sceme ads won't help.

Theymos however will advertise giant dildos, however just not direct links to nsfw sites. My point is, if we take the accumulation of laws from everywhere and put them all on here to protect every single user within their own jurisdictions, this will be a sad and incredibly regulated place. I'd rather not step in that direction. I'd rather people took personal responsibility, and didn't partake in ponzi schemes if they are illegal in their own jurisdiction or if they just dont wish to use them, and not limit those that can or want to. 

So your telling me he will not advertise porn but he will sell rubber shlongs? WTF lol
I am not understanding this ??? what makes porn non acceptable but a ponzi ok?
azzz backwards

Porn is acceptable, it just wont be directly linked.


Also, I did not add the italics, that is in every advertising auction thread.

I still fail to see the difference between a ponzi and any other gambling site? Statistically everyone will lose (applies to gambling and ponzis), Lucky players stand to gain money, which is why they play (applies to both), the similarities are countless. What is wrong with a ponzi, as long as the site operators tell you its a ponzi, so you can weigh your chances fairly, in the same way that you can with a dice or card game site?

Again, for the record, I don't use any gambling sites as I'm not the gambling sort. I'm a bit too impulsive for my own good to gamble. I just don't see why people shouldn't use ponzis if they wish to? If you are getting tricked into a ponzi scheme, like the Pirate Passthrough, thats one thing, but with the name Ponzi right in the advertisment, no one is going to end up putting money into it that doesn't know that its a ponzi scheme.

So Theymos is a bit of a prude, huh?  No direct links to pr0nz, but direct links to Ponzis?  Can't be too careful about accidently titties, I guess...

BTW, have you read press coverage on Bitcoin lately?  We're the butt of every joke, even techies like Ars and Virge stop just short of finishing Bitcoin articles with ::) or "ROLF!"
As revolting as this is to watch, I'm mainly concerned with the fallout from all of this "muh freedomz to Ponzi muh friends" stuff.  I'm not trying to impinge on what consenting adults do to each other, no matter how freakishly repulsive -- even if that happens to be exploiting each other's greed and stupidity with Ponzi schemes.

If I knew for sure that it was a scam, I would have removed it. But I wasn't sure in this case, and in fact it turned out that the site was not a scam (for now).

How do you know that it isn't a scam? 

They don't call themselves a gambling website.
And they have no business model for making money. 

How do you know that it is a scam?

How to Identify a Ponzi
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=100696.0

And the fact that I'll do an escrowed bet on it being a scam.  I'm not rich, but I'd do 1 BTC at 50/50 odds on it being proven a scam within 3 years.

They can display any add on the forum as far as its paying them well and is not illegal or related to drugs lol BTW should notice this, Iam putting in quotes

"Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction."

If ponzi scheme is illegal in everywhere, why are there a lot of ponzi threads on Gambling board? Either ban all ponzi threads and ads or allow them. If threads are allowed, ads should be allowed too.

If the website clearly stated that it was a gambling website, I'd have no problems with it.

But as it claims to be an investment website, I think they are engaged in misleading people and fraud.   This is very obvious when they claim that the project will exist as long as bitcoin is used for transactions. They're making a promise they do not intend to keep.  Their intention is to defraud people of money under false pretenses.

There are things that people try not to do, without needing laws to specifically prohibit them.  Farting at the theater is one such thing.  Advertising Ponzis is another.  I swear, this is like arguing with a 4-year-old.

Yeah, I absolutely feel like I'm arguing with a 4 year old when I'm replying
to your endless hate posts. Nothing wrong has been done here, if you don't
like it, go somewhere else. That's how life works. Nobody is forcing you to
use a forum that's advertising something you dislike.

How much BTC have you donated to keep the forum running? None? Then be happy someone is paying the bills.

Lol, the "NO U!" rebuttal.  Next you'll be tying ur own shoelaces.
As tedious as this is, I'll repeat:
I use Bitcoin.
What you do on this forum affects Bitcoin.
You're fine with shitting up where you sleep, but the rest of us have to deal with the stench.

No, letting you continue your aspie doings ain't happening.  You brag about your freedomz to rape and get raped, but when "OMG surprise butsecs!" finally happens, you run whining to the media and the law.  And then shit press, new regulations, and everyone ragequits.

Latest Wired article ends on:
"Meanwhile, Bitcoin users are dealing with the bankruptcy in their own way: by creating a new currency to buy and sell rights to the lost bitcoins, should they ever be recovered." (implicit ::) )
Followed by comments which could be tersely summed as "ROFL!"

There's a difference between a Ponzi; a scam disguised as a genuine investment opportunity and a gambling site using the ponzi model.

In a true ponzi the scheme collapses when the funds dry up and the owner general is never to be seen again, in a gambling game using the ponzi model, rounds are restarted when the funds dry up and things start up all over again.

There is a massive difference - that being the players are aware of the risks and potential consequences of playing. The early players of the round make money, and the later players lose out. The "skill" involved, is depositing early in every round.

Perhaps "ponzi" is the wrong word - these are ponzi-type games.

^
No.  We are asking Theymos to stop promoting Ponzi schemes on this forum.  

I couldn't decipher 1 single reasonable argument out of the bunch of letters you just mashed together in that last reply.
"You brag about your freedoms to rape and get raped, but when "OMG surprise butsecs!" finally happens, you run whining to the media and the law."
What medications are you on that made you type a nonsense sentence like that?
The owner of the site is allowed to do whatever he wants with it as long as it's not illegal, which it's not.
All your arguments have been smashed to pieces and you're left here, embarrassed, having fled to a newbie account that you just created
to not lose your own reputation, jumping on others and throwing wild insults and obscenities their way.

You lost. :)

Go ahead, and once again explain to us what the difference
between a ponzi and another gambling site is, and I will,
once again, explain why you're wrong. :)

@apsvinet
I have never explained the difference between gambling websites and Ponzi websites, foolishly assuming I was dealing with adults.
My apologies, here you go:

A gambling website does not misrepresent itself as a form of investment, as makebtc.org, the website in question, does.
Since you can not be trusted to follow imbedded links, I'll quote some of the relevant text:

"MakeBTC's unique investment system allows you to provide yourself with future wealth!  You will earn residual bitcoin income over time as the website evolves."
(boldface added 4 extra lulz, color added because otherwise u'd miss it)

As far as your inability to "decipher a bunch of letters" -- those are called "words."
The ability to synthesize letters into words, and, in turn, derive meaning from the aforementioned, is called "reading and understanding" -- a skill set you traded in for your exciting life of huffing paint and "investing" in Ponzis.

Jeez.

Haha, once again the miserable people who have to create newbie accounts fail to support their statements with argument, therefore directly jump to insulting anyone who claims they're wrong. :)
We're not ( Atleast I'm not ) discussing the website that's advertised itself, but rather ponzis in general. Gambling is when you risk your money in exchange for a chance of getting it back with an added profit. ( Ponzis, rolling dice, playing poker ).

Thanks for your input tho, I'm sure someone cares. :)

Look at the subject of this thread, up there^

Kids, reading is basic...

OP, original post:

*http://etc-mysitemyway.s3.amazonaws.com/icons/legacy-previews/icons/rounded-glossy-black-icons-arrows/009341-rounded-glossy-black-icon-arrows-arrow-thick-down.png If you must continue parading your boss reading skillz and your fascinating thoughts on Ponzis in general, start a new thread.  This thread, as you've just been told, is about a particular instance of the awesomeness that is Ponzi -- MakeBTC.org.

I know what the discussion originally was about, however what I spoke about with the other newbie account when you interfered and tried to save his embarrassed face was not about makebtc.org, if you would've read the posts and understood the context, you'd know.

Remember, reading is basic.

:)
:)

I don't think that's how it works. Are the servers hosted in Antarctica?  ;D

How is allowing ponzi's advertisements illegal ?
He clearly states that "Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction."

Nope, hosting is in the U.S, UK or Panama. I've heard all three tossed around. You can sell/advertise/buy things that are illegal in other countries, if you market them towards customers who live where whatever you are buying/selling isn't illegal. The site is a content neutral website that has multi national users. Theymos can't sell drugs/illegal things in the U.S himself through the forum, but individual users are allowed to do whatever is legal in their own jurisdiction.

I'm baffled by the amount of people that want to regulate what others can and can't do based on their own country's jurisdiction. If selling Beef is illegal for Indian members (in some states in India) should we ban it for the rest of the forum?

No matter how many times you repeat that, it's still as wrong as it was the first time.  Quoting to save time:


If you want to discuss the rationality of your argument (which has nothing to do with IRL law), your reasoning goes something like this:

You:     Your honor, though this is an English forum administered by an American person, from American soil, the advertising is aimed at MARTIANS.
Judge:  Say what?
You:     Martians, your honor.  Does Mars have a body of law regarding Ponzi schemes?
Judge:  Whata...
You:     Huh, thought not!  Well, the ads are intended for Martians, where Ponzis are perfectly legal.
Judge:  I see...  Well, that certainly puts a new spin on things... ... wirrr...  *smoke pours out of Judge's louvered vents*
You:     Checkmate! *smile triumphantly*

Is this how you think law works, Salty?

---

@surfer43 (below)  No, they are illegal, period.
What you are describing is some of the ways they are prosecuted.  Full text you're quoting from here: http://www.ftc.gov/public-statements/1998/05/pyramid-schemes

The scheme in question, MakeBTC.org, is also clearly misrepresenting itself as an investment:
"MakeBTC's unique investment system allows you to provide yourself with future wealth!  You will earn residual bitcoin income over time as the website evolves."

Fraudulent scheme is fraudulent.

To set the record straight, Ponzi Schemes / Pyramid Schemes are only illegal in the United States of America if they are prosecuted under the following pretences:


So as we can see, the non-deceptive ponzi schemes on this forum are generally only illegal in the U.S. under anti-gambling laws.

>>Theymos can't sell drugs/illegal things in the U.S himself through the forum, but individual users are allowed to do whatever is legal in their own jurisdiction.

I'm guessing there are some US laws against this.  Probably some anti-terrorism ones (otherwise users could sell each other weapons of massive destruction that are legal in their area / or donate money to Hezbollah).

I'm guessing there is a list of products that it isn't legal to advertise for sale on US based websites even if they are legal in other countries. I'm guessing this list would include drugs and possibly heavy weapons.

Btcweb.com stopped hosting makebtc.org on my request.

Indeed anyway I can't see anything wrong with this....
He is selling ad space... so what?

You absolute idiot.

Nobody stated that you could advertise anything you wanted as long as it was legal in whatever country you were DIRECTING the ads towards, which is what your made up stupid scenario is implying.
Get your facts straight and stop putting words in people's mouths.
You've already lost, give up.

@apsvinet:  Your spergy antics are becoming unbearable.  if you don't stop spamming this instant and delete your posts, I'm calling your parents.
You have been warned, young lady >:(

Good argument. :)
Thank you for your input, theMiracle.

:)

Besides, just to prove my point even more about your incapability of reading properly, you misquoted me ( perhaps on purpose? ).
I was not able to dechiper a single argument out of the bunch of letters ( humorous implication that his ramblings were nonsense ).


lol, pwned.

Source? The laws they are prosecuted under are the only things making them illegal.

It is misrepresenting itself, but it is honest when it comes to the ponzi scheme.

I'm sort-a afraid to ask but ... "It's lying, but otherwise it's honest?" or "It's honest except for the parts where it lies"?
*"It honestly lies"?
"It lies, I lie. A lie about a lie is Truth.  Profit!"

*Oh, forgot your other question, so here, from the very same text you quoted (big chunk of text, quote post to read):

"The legacy of Mr. Ponzi lives on as pyramid and Ponzi schemes continue to plague us and challenge the law enforcement community. Fortunately, in the U.S., the Federal Trade Commission is just one among many agencies that have the authority to file suit to stop this type of fraud. The Securities and Exchange Commission also pursues these schemes, obtaining injunctions against so-called "financial distribution networks" which in fact sell unregistered "securities."(7) The U.S. Department of Justice, in collaboration with investigative agencies like the FBI and the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, prosecutes pyramid schemes criminally for mail fraud, securities fraud, tax fraud, and money laundering.(8)

State officials independently file cases in state court, often under specific state laws that prohibit pyramids. California defines pyramids as "endless chains" and prohibits them under its laws against illegal lotteries.(9) In a slightly different vein, Illinois classifies pyramid schemes as criminal acts of deception directed against property.(10) Some states like Georgia prohibit pyramid schemes under a statutory framework that regulates business opportunities and multilevel marketing.(11)"[/quote]

It is a investment system, you invest and get a profit back. However there's not a guarantee you will.
Where does the site claim that there is a 100% chance you'll get your investment back? :)


:)

I guess the same place where you bank claims that there's a hundred percent chance you'll get your money back -- no place.

As far as "it's an investment system":  My toilet is also an investment system.  You flush your money down, and get double your money back.  Or not.

No, if you physically flush your money down your toilet they're lost and probably destroyed. Ponzis use the money that others invest to pay the former investors with a % profit. I'm surprised that you don't know the basics of it while trying to create arguments for why they shouldn't be advertised.

That said, I'm not defending/recommending ponzis to anyone, I've made several posts advising people not to use them, and voted for a new sections exclusively for ponzis, so that the rest of us don't have to see them. Ponzis don't work unless someone loses their money, which is wrong, but it should still be everybody's choice if they wanna risk it.

However it's still the forum owner's right to advertise them, if he wants to.

[/quote]
It doesn't use the word "ponzi" but it shows the mechanics quite clearly and these show it is a ponzi. Let's not get into semantics  :)

The scams are where people just say "Invest in my 'business' and I will pay you x% in x days!"

ORLY?  I invite you to try it with your own toilet.  Take five Twenty-dollar bills, throw them into your toilet, soak them in fresh urine, and flush.  Let the tank fill up.  Now flush again.  

I guarantee you that 12 hours after the final flushing, $200 will appear in your wallet.

[edit][SPOILER!  Do not read until your money is safely flushed down the toilet!]*Though I never said "the final flushing" was the last flush of your toilet.  I meant the final flushing evah, before the universe succumbs to heat death.

It's a bad example and a bad theoretical scenario ( supposed to be funny? ) that's irrelevant to the rest of the discussion.
Although everyone has already realized you're a troll.

Thank you very much, protector of the innocent, knight of jurisdiction. You're setting a shining example of how to free the average joe of his painful burden of self-responsibility.

Did Mr. Internet Police also think about the people who deposited BTC into makebtc.org and were highly satisfied with its service? The people who regarded makebtc.org as an investment rather than gambling? I doubt it. And anyway: call it gambling, call it investment, call it what you want ... no one is forced to join and use it.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=420881.260

Marty!
Calculating counterparty risks and accounting for the chance that a blatantly illegal operation would get reported and B& are part of the fun of investing in Ponzis!
It's all a part of the game, bro -- enjoy it.

Still haven't seen a response to what someone asked a bit earlier. How much btc did you donate to keep this forum running? :)



:)

I have donated exactly 0 coins to this forum.  I have also donated 0 dollars to your upbringing, yet I feel justified in asking you to stop shitting up this thread.

I don't see this warning or has it been removed now?

Yes. The site isn’t a scam, we had a few problems which have since been resolved, therefore that disclaimer has been removed.

Doesn't make sense for the Admin (Theymos) or the staff to defend Ponzi scams to this extent unless they are making a profit of it. Blatant advertising and condoning of this behavior is detrimental to the site and bitcoin as a whole. Lost a lot of respect for the staff here.

When it takes ordinary users such as Tomatocage to combat scammers, there is a serious issue. The extent of moderation is misplaced posts and spamming. Not very difficult job but keep it up.

Where do you see anybody in this thread defending ponzi schemes whatsoever?
So far I've only seen people bashing on it, and people defending the owner's right to advertise whatever he wants.

Big difference.

There is a running defense by the staff that Ponzi constitutes gambling but the logic behind that defense is gambling = inherent risk for being involved in the activity. This can be applied to ANYTHING. They are taking the definition of gambling too literally. Maybe it needs to be reworded to "Traditional Gambling". The easiest solution is to simply move all Ponzi related threads to "Games and Rounds".

Easiest solution yes, not the best though. Best (and more likely to be implemented) solution is a new board for HYIP. HYIP have always been lumped in with gambling, and they should be separated. Ponzis would fit better there as well. I made another post about it here. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=510636.msg5657950#msg5657950

Oh sure.

When this hits the media, 'Biggest Bitcoin Forum Promotes Ponzis', what the fuck do you guys think will happen?

No offense, but most ignorant people think Bitcoiners are crazed hippies that invest in drugs and frauds already.

But Ponzis are illegal in many countries.

The USD might be one of the dirties currencies alive right now, but ignorance will make people to believe that Bitcoin supports illegal things.

I had not seen that post yet. That would indeed be the ideal solution! Thank you

Which part is illegal?  There is a huge difference between someone promising an unrealistic return on investment aka a Ponzi scheme and someone specifically saying they will not pay an unrealistic return on investment and pay out a specific amount from additional deposits coming in?

^

Let's stop going around in circles.  The illegalities of advertising Ponzis for an American person operating a website from American soil are numerous, and have been stated throughout this thread.  They are unimportant.

The bad publicity, needless attention from government agencies, and giving a great foothold for Bitcoin's detractors -- those are the important bits.

Lol, yet you're wrong and accomplished nothing.

/thread

Finally somebody agrees with me! Many people are using black markets, Mt Gox, and other things against Bitcoin already! Why the hell would we want them to pick up that we even 'allow' Ponzis? I honestly have no idea why anybody would say that they think they shouldn't be banned.

To the Media, it'll no longer be the Blackmarketcoin. It'll also be the Illegal-Scammer-Blackmarket-Coin.

I've seen this requested in the meta section before. About time it happens. Goodie goodie.

Case in point:

As soon as things go wrong, all the "personal responsibility" and "muh right to chose buttrape" bullshit is forgotten, and Money Mavericks call in teh man:


Next time you wonder why regulation, this is why.
Thanks for protecting our right to Ponzi :-\

Who's "we"?

Hmm, nice catch of that.

I changed it, thanks for telling/informing me of that.

I think we're missing out on the most obvious solution - MakeBTC.org should join the Bitcoin Foundation board :-*

I don't get it, what's the big deal all of the sudden? Bitcoin was founded in illegal activity. If it wasn't for Gawker letting the world know you can buy illegal drugs online with Bitcoin none of you would have ever heard about Bitcoin. This place has always been accepting of illegal shit. This guy "Flax" used to sell all kinds of illegal drugs from the marketplace of this forum. Hell, when I came here years ago theymos had a ponzi scheme advert in his sig line. You want to use and discuss a financial network that fully complies with the law then go use this forum: https://www.paypal-community.com/t5/US-PayPal-Community/ct-p/US

At a time when 90% of Bitcoin securities are turning out to be scams or so grossly mismanaged that it amounts to the same thing, when Gox accidently all ur bitcoins, when Bitcoin Foundation members resign in disgrace, when the mainstream journalists are pointing fingers peeing their pants laughing, some of us feel now might not be the time to start running Ponzi ads.

The illegality is brought up as a justification for banning those ads, just like those ads will be used by the authorities as an excuse for investigating this forum/people associated with running it.

When there's a kilo of blow in your car, make sure your taillights work, and make sure you stop for stop signs.  Why does stuff like this need to be spelled out here?

It needs to be spelled out because it doesn't fit into Bitcoin or this forum. This place is run by an anarchist (theymos - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Theymos). It's a haven for anarchists and libertarians. The beliefs here tend to run toward very minimalist government and freedom to do anything that you see fit. What few limits are imposed here are only intended to keep big brother from busting the door down and shutting off the lights. Posts only needs to be in the correct section and on topic. Bitcoin was supposed to be that way too. Bitcoin became popular when "normal" people started using it, TBF started working with governments and it has become so vanilla that I almost don't want any part of it now. Ponzi's belong here because they go along with the ideals here like peanut butter goes with fucking jelly. Get it now?

Not sure how to make this any clearer.  I'm not telling you to be law-abiding -- just to stop screaming "I'm doin' crimez here!!1!"  Not all of us welcome the added attention.

I also don't think most of us want to lower the .00000001% chance of Bitcoin not becoming banned or illegal. Then we'd be in some TOUGH shit.

And the forum would be instantly shut down, of course.

Wait a minute. It's ok to be a radical just don't let anybody know it? It's hard to start a movement with that perspective.

Promoting Ponzi schemes champions the Libertarian cause?  To outsiders, it looks like nothing more than raw greed and stupidity.

IDEA!
Start your own site,  make your own rules and live happily ever after.

This is the forum where Bitcointalk.org is discussed.  If you don't like what's being said, you're free to stop reading.  Learn to interweb.

Yes it does. The freedom to make your own choices without protectionist systems in place would agree with both libertarian and anarchist ideals. Take your balls out of the vice and hold them in your own hands. It's a beautiful feeling.

This forum is owned not by you, you don't set the rules. You seem real keen on the "quality" of your posts yet scorn others for theirs. Don't like the rules? Find the door.

According to Theymos, this forum is not owned by him -- he is administering it.  This subforum was created specifically for discussions about Bitcointalk.org.  If you wish to contribute to the discussion, please stay on topic (see Subject).

@QuestionAuthority:  Not sure what you are trying to say re: holding my balls and feels.
*Do you really feel that anything that fits the Libertarian framework immediately becomes "a smart thing to do"?

As I said, YOU don't own it. I did not mention Theymos.  "You don't make the rules" still applies as does the "quality" of your posts.
At this point, you are just typing to see what you typed, nothing more.

Unless you are suggesting that *you* own this forum, your telling me what I should do is pretty lulzy.
So curb that self-importance a bit, and stay on topic.
[edit]You can also start your own thread, where you can vent your feelings and bash me, but this thread is about advertising MakeBTC.org, a ponzi website.

Pot, meet kettle. Seems in your almighty self importance, you are telling others what to think, no?
Lulzy, I loled!

No, it's not automatically "a smart thing to do" or even the right thing to do. I'm not a libertarian or an anarchist but I have the ability to understand what they believe. I can also see that this place is very much libertarian and controlled by an anarchist. That's why I say ponzi's fit right in here. I can believe that it's really cool and trendy to be a gay black man. I can't make myself gay or black but I can agree to appreciate what they are and hang with them without passing judgment.

+1  keep up the good work mate.


the disclaimer 'tards will be in for a surprise when they move out of the basement.

I am curious why no other sites advertise illegal activities??? jeeez don't they know you can just have a disclaimer!!!
theymos is so clever to think up a disclaimer.. lets donate more money to him err the forums..

No one is arguing that Ponzi schemes don't fit Libertarian thinking.  That's irrelevant.

What's being said here is it is stupid for this forum to accept Ponzi ads. <==look, simple!

No judgement is being passed on Libertarians, Gayniggers From Outer Space, or even Ponzis -- only the wisdom of advertising Ponzis on this forum.<==Look, again!
Hopefully, you don't need to make yourself gay or black to understand this.

No.
I am explaining why advertising Ponzis is stupid.
My point, along with those of others, will become factors in Theymos' decision to accept Ponzi ads.

Must I explain *everything*?

anyways I don't know why you guys made a thread about this. Theymos has a history of accepting ad money from stolen sources.. so this isn't new
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=94475.msg1062355
basically someone steals X amount of money. They use Y amount to pay for ad. Theymos  believes because X - Y  wont make a big dint in what is owed to investors, its alrite to use the money if you follow what im saying :p

You're clueless and you won't be changing anyone's mind here.

why dont you both agree to disagree.................................. ?

who cares who is a gay black man and who isnt.. or whatever the hell you guys are on about.

NO U!
>:(

*theMiracle gives up on trying to keep this thread on topic and haughtily storms off.  theMiracle is angry.*

You are also welcome to sell child porn and murder for hire as they are legal where you are selling them. No problem, all cool.

I honesty feel sorry for Salty..
when the raid on theymos happens i'm sure he will be taken down to...

Salty... seriously... delete your posts.. you do not want to say that... regardless of if the bitcointalk "lawyer" says you can say it or not...
when you are sitting in a cell you rekon anybody is going to help you ?? maybe john k will come back and give you some money...

I'd do a lot of things, but I wouldn't be mentioning that.. on this forum..  you have no idea which gov agencies are watching...
but ya i get it.. you will reply back saying its legal...and I am sure it is legal... but the world is changing and you would have to be pretty silly to be a mod and tell people they can sell drugs.. common sense should come into play.

You just need 1 person from USA to make a thread selling drugs and then someone to buy said drugs and the forum and all associated is fucked. disclaimer or not...

anyways... not sure how I can warn you without pretty much telling you....

Hard to believe the mods could be this foolish.

ALERT/INFO

There's a new site online which copies the makebtc concept:

http://qoingrow.com/

The people from badbitcoin.org call it "Ponzi/Scam", see http://www.badbitcoin.org/badlist/index.htm

BTW: Here's what the same people say about makebtc.org:
"The site has been suspended by the host as somebody reported it as a gambling site. We hope people don't lose their Btc as this appeared to be an honest and moderately sustainable scheme - ongoing - 12/03/14" (see http://www.badbitcoin.org/)

It's hard to believe people in many places around the world are not having a drinkable water :) but they didn't.

Same here - hard to believe that this discussion went so far far...