Bitcoin Forum

I am researching how the Bitcoin is affecting our environment adversely . Yes we can’t leave Bitcoin but also we have to adopt a new way for the survival.
In my Previous article I have discussed about the consequences of Bitcoin Mining >> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5056073.0

Bitcoin relies on Proof-of-Work and really its troublesome, How ? Lets check >>

Proof of Work:

The concept of PoW is created even before the birth of Bitcoin. The Original Idea was published by Cynthia Dwork and Moni Naor in the year of 1993. But thats the idea stage only. In 1999 The term “Proof of Work” is coined by  Markus Jakobson. It is the Form of answer of a mathematical problem or puzzle. It is required a tons of works to reach the final result. Now if we tire up the Bitcoin and the Pow we will get the idea. The one and only way to solve this equation is solve the nodes on the certain network. The result we get through a long process and successive steps. For detail we need to acquire the primitive knowledge of Consensus.

So what is Consensus
Consensus is just a “general agreement”  which is an important component of blockchain technology. Rather than power for keeping accounts being centralized in a solitary substance, similar to a bank or centralized online installment framework, cryptocurrency utilizes conveyed ledgers or blockchains to record data. Along these lines, a general agreement is expected to record data, for example, the parity of each address, exchanges, and so on the blockchain. All accord instruments plan to anchor the network by making it costly to assault the network and more beneficial to help ensure it.
 
Here are the consensus mechanisms for blockchain are

• Proof of Work (PoW)
• Proof of Stake (PoS)  
• Delegated Proof of Stake (DPoS)  

Both Bitcoin and Ethereum use PoW mechanism. Be that as it may, engineers of Ethereum are attempting to move to PoS accord component on account of several downsides of the PoW system.

Cons of PoW

• 1.     Real Bad- Tremendous Energy Consumption:

The rate of energy consumption is huge , we could talk about the genuine information and reality sheet.  I heard in a month of last year, the Bitcoin and Bitcoin Cash networks alone used 0.14% of the total energy consumption in the world, which is considerably more than numerous entire nations. The usage is higher , we can conclude.
 

• 2.   Electricity to Heat(Just producing Heat who failed to solve the puzzle)

Could you guys estimate the number of machine , which are failed to solve the math or heavy puzzles through the PoW., I know its the theme of the task to maintain the security but thousands of computers/asics are running the doing the math s on the network that don’t “win” a given block puzzle , so they are just converting electricity to heat.

• 3.   The rate of Electricity is not same:

There are two sectors for dumping electricity , one is the mining rig and other is the environment. For hot countries , we have to maintain the environment of the rig also. For that in some cases we need 2X electricity for mining.Not everywhere in the world has cheap electricity.
[/list]

Mining has Demographic advantage:
So, Mining pools are established in a relatively small number of geographic areas, like having the cool environment for free of cost. Like the countries having their temperature down less than 10 degree are more likely to  adopt the advantages.


Again The Ironic Truth
The ironic Truth is that blockchains and cryptocurrencies are created to establish a new economic system. But it requires fiat transactions to acquire electricity to operate.



Is Proof-of-Stake(PoS) the Winner ???
 Proof of stake is originally designed to solve the current problem for PoW’s energy intensive process. In PoW , it just blended with tons of useless puzzles and mathematical problem. The main theme in PoS lies on the staking of the coins which is eventually derived as “Proof of Stakes”.  This  systems have the same purpose of validating transactions and achieving consensus.


In this system Way to Create a Block
the creator of a new block is chosen in a deterministic way based on their stake which might put positive effect on the long term basis . The higher quantity of reserved coins , the higher chance to create a Block.

Will it take positive effect on the Market (Right or Wrong)
You guys might think Miners might be responsible for the market volatility. They just pay the electricity cost for running the rigs.  As a whole mining is expensive ,so  you can’t blame miners for selling a bit in hurry. Even in bearish market there might be a consequences, if there’s not much demand for a coin, this certain activity pushes the price down.  In this proof of Stakes system , it ensures you price stability is because it gives the person more incentive to keep the coin than to sell. Holding will be the main key for the miners in a sense. I know its not 100% correct. But it has some positive perspective.

One thing we all agree with - The Core Formula of  Decentralization (Blockchain)
Countries having contributed to the hashing power will get higher chance to solve the complex puzzle faster. Inside that situation, stakers would understand that the more you hold, the more costly your coins would get.

BUT still PoS system also consists some critical problems.
Monopoly is the Main Curse Again —Holding a ton of coins, Will dominate the rewards.

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I am not new in this forum , but still suffers to get merits. If you think i am capable enough , please tip me a merit. It will boost my speed.

Wish this forum had kinda negative merit and I had a chance to give a ton of it to guys who bring forward their failed and worthless ideas about PoS here.

Pos is the most stupid idea in cryptocurrency, what stake they are talking about after all? There is nothing at stake once you look close enough. And I'm sick of this fake environmentalism. You want to save the environment? Produce green electricity or convince Trump to abandon coal industry or at least not to expand it.

Bitcoin consumes energy for a very good reason; setting money free, besides healthcare and education I don't know any other use case for electricity more useful than bitcoin PoW.

I think that this ideia to that "bitcoin is bad to the environment" is just bullshit.

Global warming is the biggest scam. When they couldn't hide anymore that he Earth was actually getting cooler, they changed to name to climate change.

To "save the environment" we need better societies worldwide. I believe bitcoin is a good step forward in that direction, no matter how much electricity is needed to secure the network now, in this early stages..


About pos, I think its a good idea for an altcoin. It needs to be tested in large scale, like Ethereum

@bitmover: Well, if you think that "global warming is a scam", then there should be no point for PoS at all for you. ;D Apart from the higher energy efficiency, PoS has practically only disadvantages with respect to PoW.

But in my opinion the energy efficiency point is an advantage. But it must be combined with other algorithms - either PoW or something like Proof of Burn or Proof of Space - to get rid at least of the most severe disadvantages, like the "censorship by insiders" problem and the diverse nothing-at-stake-related vulnerabilities.

I'm tending to consider PoS as a "cheap security booster" for other algorithms (that's what Ethereum currently is trying to achieve).

I don't think so.

Many small altcoins suffered a 51% attack recently, like btg and others.
Pow works well for bitcoin, but other coins could use other protocols.

@OP.
Initially I used to think on same line that bitcoin POW is wasting energy but if you look from the start of the bitcoin journey I am sure you will change your mind.
Initial bitcoin were mined on laptops, more people trusted bitcoin ,more energy they put in network to secure the network.

Remember, bitcoin code does not have condition that you need to produce that much hashes to mine bitcoin. People are putting more hashes in network because they are trusting the network.

You can always research for solution if you believe POW is a waste of electricity, processing power.

However, if you see it as a feature, a price that needs to be paid in order to guarantee the immutability of the network, to secure the network against all types of attacks (including forks), POW does not represent a problem at all.

If a Proof of Stake network was split for a brief time, the Longest Chain with the Highest Difficulty overwrites the shorter chain with the lower difficulty.
So which ever chain had the most coins staking, with the higher difficulty is the true chain.
In Proof of Stake Difficulty is based upon the Target Difficulty to maintain the rated blockspeed.


I love how you PoW guys , make up storytales about how easy it is to steal enough private keys to  perform a history manipulation.
You're totally wrong, but hey why let truth interfere with your fantasy.

Now if I said, I use a few seal teams and take over 51% of the ASICS Warehouses running bitcoin,
you cry about how impossible that is, but here is the thing , those ASICS Warehouses are easy to find.  :)
Finding and stealing the private keys of any crypto is not as easy as you make out.
Plus if it was that easy, what keeps someone from stealing all of the bitcoin private keys and just crashing your markets by selling them all.

Next you say , well it is old keys that used to have coins in them , completely ignoring the fact there may have been a program update since that time with a coded checkpoint that completing blocks this attack or the PoS coin may not allow reorgs past a certain point.
Not to mention the fact , you really need closer to 90% of the staking coin than 51%, and you need to know how to configure the blocks for optimal staking which is different for each PoS coins because they use different specs. Don't even get me started about coin age, since you probably don't even know what that is or how it factors in. In other words there are more variables than you know and they vary per coin.

I tell you , like I tell the rest that make up how easy it is supposed to be, Go ahead and do it to prove it can be done.
As of this moment, no one has successfully pulled off a history rewrite on a Proof of Stake coin by using old invalid keys,
I like to see you do it , so put up or shut up.

However odds are you will fail like all of the rest.  :D

My odds using a few seal teams to take over Bitcoin is probably better than yours of rewriting a Proof of Stake coin.  :D

FYI:
By some miracle if you actually did succeed in overwriting a PoS history with old invalid keys. (Doubtful)
What happens next is the dev team releases the good blockchain with a new checkpoint invalidating all of your work instantly.
They probably also add a reorg limit to make sure it never happened again.
So all you did was waste your time.  ;)  

POS = piece of shit.

It is fundamentally an uninsured bank cd.

Or a piece of shit.

Pow only needs to use solar wind tidal sources for power and it becomes the greenest way to creat money.

I am partners with a solar array paid for by mining crypto coins.  It is pretty much fully green.

I can’t begin to tell you how set against POS I am.  But I had 1000 PPC coins staked in a Mac OS  core wallet. Sitting for  About eighty days waiting for my juice or interest.

And it was due in ten days.  Ppc decided to update the  wallet due to a fork.  And they only offered a windows update at first.  So I had the option of pulling coins from the Mac wallet losing my interest.

Or keeping coins in wallet risking losing coin to the fork.

I told the dev wtf where is Mac wallet update.  First replies were pretty much bullshit and with a two days to go to fork. I sold off the 1000 coins. Of course the idiots offer the Mac update the next day.

But if that was 1000 in a cd in a bank I get my juice.  Cause it is POS with zip for regs I got zero interest.

POS will always be this way until worldwide regs get put in.  And then you basically have a bank.

So I skip all that drama and I use a bank if I want to stake wealth.

Now as a miner I have found a way to compromise. I mine BCI which gives 10 of 13 coins as block rewards and 3 as POS.

A hybrid .


I do think hybrid pow + pos has a future.  So I am big on BCI it has a good algorithm progpow. Small market cap and the  hybrid feature

Size of your Solar Array,  Size of your Battery Backups, Energy Wasted by your ASICS,  # of Bitcoins Produced Daily?
Are your Connected to the Grid at Night Wasting others electricity and driving up the prices for your neighbors?

How is your Cooling Handled?
Is the Array completely paid for?
What Country is it in? (Hours of Sunlight)
Did you cut down trees to get more sunlight hours?

Have you done a study to see how much sunlight you are blocking from the soil and the damage occurring to the microorganisms because of it?
Has your Solar Array displaced native animals that used to eat the vegetation?

And can you answer the above or are you making stuff up?



You understand so little , oh where to start.
1. Wallet.dat are the same on the MAC or Windows and can be copied from one to the other.
Or you could have just exported your keys and imported them into a windows client
2. There are emulators that run windows wallets on Mac

A program update would have had zero effect on your coin age unless they were changing the coin age specs for everyone.
Your coin reward grows with time , so if it took longer before you were able to stake, the additional reward would have been included for the additional time.

Your entire hate of PoS is due to your complete misunderstanding of how a Proof of Stake coin works.
That is on you , not the PoS consensus.

POS ftw.

If a "bad rich guy" wants to buy up the network and attack it... at least if they are forced to by the coins to attack the network it's more noticeable than getting blasted by a nuke silo of newly developed miners.

PoW causes money to funnel in lots of places rather than the coin and the technology around it is unpredictable.

And it is the point! A monetary system in which money funnels in itself is not a monetary system at all, it looks to me as a masterbation system rather. :D

PoS enthusiasm is very ridiculous, in PoW we consume energy to produce value but in PoS they do nothing and produce nothing, just a subjective idea of money like fiat without legitimacy and regulation.

I believe mods should ban PoS discussion in this subforum if not the whole forum. We are not interested.

Of course you do, but you would be wrong.

Is Censorship of Thought something you actually want to stand up for, considering how much of your own posts have been censored.

Think about it.

In Proof of Stake Energy is Consumed, but it is not wasteful like bitcoin, it is efficient.
You are railing against efficiency in favor of blind useless wastefulness.

All Proof of Work coin have no choice but to become centralized, dominated by the elite.
In the end a successful PoW coin will always be dominated like Fiat by the Government Elite.

A Proof of Stake coin at least has a fighting chance at being decentralized, because to profit from it you have to sell some of it.
Yes, I know some PoS go insane with an interest rate, and all of those that do will be destroyed by their own inflation,
but not all PoS coins have insane interest rates, and those will be one that make the difference in the future.




@ETFbitcoin,
You seem reasonable.

But in the above post, there is a vulerabilty in PoW that does not exist in PoS.
In PoW, if someone has 51% , whoever owns that can block all new transactions constantly.
In PoS, even if I own 70% of the staking coins, I would be unable to block all new transactions constantly.
After Staking PoS coins go dormant for a programmed set of time

So restoring a blockchain on a PoW coin, would not stop the damage a 51% attack that blocked all new transactions could cause.
They would just keep blocking all transactions on the restored chain.

Another reason PoS is a superior consensus method to PoW.

Please retract the statement in bold.

I think this PoS/PoW debate is not a technical debate and does not belong to this subforum, development and technical discussion.

Efficiency has nothing to do with this subject. Once you consume less resources, you are lowering the attackers costs as well, lowering the security level. Security is not a product of protocols it is an equilibrium state of costs and benefits of attacks in which costs are set to be high enough to discourage attackers.  

We have debated it many times and enough is enough!

Irrelevant, because the coins still go dormant no matter how many addresses are used.



It effectively , blocks all new transactions, meaning no one can spend anything on that blockchain.
That entire PoW coin usefulness as a payment system is utterly destroyed, plus the other miners ability to make new coin is also halted.
Since PoW coin miners input costs are so high, blocking them from receiving any new coins or transactions fees can be more devastating in a shorter amount of time.  Also an unspendable coin's price would crash on the markets in a few weeks.

@OP don't take it personally , atfirst i thought PoS is better than PoW , but the consequences are bit more harsh.


Proof of Stake prompts centralization, with more awful outcomes than PoW

It would be ideal if you let me introduce this by saying PoS is a specialized enhancement past PoW. It enables the system to utilize altogether less assets in mining. This is great since it doesn't require the vitality necessities of a little nation to keep up the system.

So, when it connects with this present reality and financial matters it is no superior to Proof of Work.

Proof of Work depends on a numbers session of who has the most hashing force while proof of stake depends on a measurably reasonable round of whoever has the most crypto. Every ostensible unit of coin has parallel chances to be picked for its wallet to be the following mineworker. One stipulation of PoS, be that as it may, is that the wallet must be on the web. To be on the web, it requires assets (hardware, electricity, and internet connection). Assets have a true expense. Because of the reality PoS doesn't expect you to battle with hashing power, the vitality cost and hardware costs don't ascend with chances of being mined the following square (the mining lottery).

Along these lines, bigger stakes, have a less expensive expense to mine than littler stakes. To delineate this reality, envision you have a PC in your home with 1 ETH and your neighbor has an indistinguishable PC setup in his home however with 2 ETH. The vitality requires to run the two setups are actually the equivalent and the overhead hardware are the equivalent so the expense to run every one of your mining activities is the equivalent. In any case, your neighbor has 2x chances you do since he has 2x more ETH. Since each square will offer a similar mining reward paying little heed to your stake estimate, the normal esteem (odds*payout) for every unit of ETH is the equivalent, you and your neighbor both have the equivalent expected EV. In any case, in light of the fact that those machines have an expense to run, their profitabilities are unique. Your neighbor has 1/2 the expense for every unit of generation, as you.

Given the way that the bigger stake holder winds up with a bigger net revenue, as a normal financial specialist, he would keep a greater amount of the mined ETH to expand his generation capacity. So a bigger stake holder would develop his ETH stake quicker than a littler stake holder.

After a point, the expense of being a piece of the mining task would be too high with respect to the payout for little stake holders and they would reasonably drop out of the mining business, taking their wallets disconnected.

This prompts centralization of mining and the rich get more extravagant, quicker.

The option would be for littler stake holders to gather as one and move the majority of their wallets to a focal administration at that point share all mined ETH and running expenses as it would diminish the per unit cost of the activity.

This is called economies of scale. We saw this right off the bat in Bitcoin. The distinction with Proof of Stake is that it would require the majority of the littler holders to put their stakes in a similar area. This makes a helplessness not exclusively to hacking yet to outside jurisdictional power, for example, direction, tax collection, and so forth.

So one way or alternate, PoS will prompt centralization a similar way PoW does because of economies of scale. While it ends up diminishing the vitality cost to run the foundation of the system to a small amount of what PoW requires, it winds up presenting a lot of new hazard which cryptos aren't intended to deal with (i.e. outside direction and jurisdictional control).

FTFY  ;)

@Dr. Agon don't take it personally ,   PoS is better than PoW

PoW is more Shit than PoS

Proof of Work take prompts centralization, with more awful outcomes than PoS

It would be ideal if you let me introduce this by saying PoW is a energy wasteful design compared to PoS.
It enables the system to waste altogether more assets in mining.
This is bad since it does require the vitality necessities of a little nation to keep up the system.

So, when it connects with this present reality and financial matters it is less superior to Proof of Stake.

Proof of Work depends on a numbers session of who has the most hashing force
and who is rich enough to afford the new mining eguipment on a ~yearly basis along with insane energy costs that require Utility approval
while proof of stake depends on the cooperation of multiple stakers in order to keep the chain moving and safeguarded.
One stipulation of PoS, be that as it may, is that the wallet must be on the web.
To be on the web, it requires assets (hardware, electricity, internet connection. & that specific PoS coin (either purchased or produced by PoW originally).
Assets have a true expense.
PoS doesn't expect you to battle with hashing power, with PoS , the coins per block battle for the right to stake, an energy/cost efficient way of determining  the next block. PoS coin go dormant for a specified time period after staking , this gives its staking a fairness not included in PoW greedy & wasteful winner take all consensus.

Along these lines, bigger stakes, have better odds to be included in the next block than littler stakes.
However, due to the dormancy period little stakers still receive a chance to stake, especially if that PoS coin includes coin age which multiplies their little stake by the number of days since last staked, (meaning a little staker amount multiplied  by age could easily exceed a large staker coin per block).
To delineate this reality, envision you have a PC in your home with 1 ETH and your neighbor has an indistinguishable PC setup in his home however with 2 ETH. The vitality requires to run the two setups are actually the equivalent and the overhead hardware are the equivalent so the expense to run every one of your mining activities is the equivalent. In any case, your neighbor has 2x chances you do since he has 2x more ETH. Since each square will offer a similar mining reward paying little heed to your stake estimate, the normal esteem (odds*payout) for every unit of ETH is the equivalent, you and your neighbor both have the equivalent expected EV. In any case, in light of the fact that those machines have an expense to run, their profitabilities are unique. Your neighbor has 1/2 the expense for every unit of generation, as you.
Your neighbor spent double the expense of getting two ETH instead of one, and since their costs of PoS coins were double , they receive double benefit.
The Main thing to remember in a PoS coin , the coins hold more value than the hardware.

Given the way that the bigger stake holder winds up with a bigger net revenue, as a normal financial specialist, he would keep a greater amount of the mined ETH to expand his generation capacity. So a bigger stake holder would develop his ETH stake quicker than a littler stake holder.
(Unless the bigger stake holder decided to spend a portion or all of his holdings to purchase something else he deemed valuable.)
(This is no different than any business that tries to gain marketshare in their early years, putting more back into the business than taking out.)

In Contrast , a PoW Miner value is in the Energy Wasteful ASICS
He may sell all of his coins at all times and never decrease his ability to make more or keep his constant control of the PoW network ,
since his ASICS do not go dormant after finding a block like a PoS coin does.
Also a PoW Miner can mine multiple coins that use the same algorithm dumping whenever he likes,
while a PoS coin Staker has only the single coin and his entire investment is in it only, giving him a deeper interest in that single PoS coin than a PoW miner has.
IE: If Bitcoin dies tomorrow, PoW ASICS miners would just switch an alternate such a BCash.

In PoS, the expense of staking is easily maintainable, as stakers can leave a system offline for months , sync and then use coinage to stake in a few minutes and sell or hold their stake and repeat, over time getting a payout or increasing their stake to decrease the time needed for the next stake.

In Contrast, PoW users have to run their ASICS constantly as their performance/payout deceases per every 2 weeks,
by the end of a ~year, those ASICS are useless and entire new ASICS must be purchased.
Which puts them on a never ending hampster wheel of wasting energy & wasting money by constantly needing updated hardware and increased energy requirements. This would be ok if they were in a bubble, that had no effect of the rest of the world, but the sad harsh truth is their insane waste of electricity will affect your mother, father , brother, sister and friends, as their greed cause shortages and price hikes to those that can least afford it and have nothing to do with crypto.  


Bitcoin Mining has been centrailized to Chinese Miners for over 2 years.
The Little guy can not complete with the Mega Rich that have warehouse of ASICS.
The Little Guy dropped out of PoW years ago, with no chance to mining to become wealthy.

In PoS , Smaller stake holders can gather as one and move the majority of their wallets to a focal administration at that point share all mined ETH and running expenses as it would diminish the per unit cost of the activity.
Which is no different than small bitcoin miners running pools to increase their chances of finding new blocks.

In Conclusion,
In PoW the coin holders themselves have no power and are slaves to the overlords that run the ASICS Warehouse,
praying their ASICS masters charge them a low fee to make transactions.  :P

In PoS, the coin holders themselves have all the power
and are free to make certain their transactions can not be blocked by an overwhelming authority figure.   :)


** This is a Corrected Version of Dr. Agon Post from the previous page. (IMO) **
** Truthfulness added to correct Inaccuracies in the comparison of PoS & PoW.**

We have debated the same topic over and over again but the "POS proponents" have never given a suggestion which POS coin should "replace" Bitcoin.

Give us a suggestion of one POS coin that we should grant the originators perpetual power, and tell us why?

This text is a plagiarism from:
https://unblock.net/cryptocurrency-consensus-algorithms/

He just changed identical words like "home" to "house" and imagine with "envision"

It may be a PoW coin that switches to PoS succeeds bitcoin,
or
it may be a PoS coin that was PoS from the beginning.

The MarketPlace will choose which PoS coin replaces Bitcoin and when, not a single individual.

FYI:
Your confusion about perpetual power shows your lack of understanding,
if a PoS Staker sells their coins, they lose staking power, they can not profit forever without making sure their stake stays competitive.
You confuse high inflation PoS coins like Sprouts Classic, with other low inflation PoS coin.
High Inflation PoS coins will destroy themselves by hyper inflation that crashes them out of every market including dodge coin.
All you have to do is watch spouts classic to see this unfolding or go study the effects of hyper inflation.
The Succeeding PoS coin will have a lower inflation rate that does not exceed their daily demand of new coins in the marketplace.
And the Daily demand will be determined by the marketplace.  ;)

FYI2:
I find it funny, how you worry about a PoS staker having power , but could care less that you have zero power in your Bitcoin.
Unless you are running a warehouse full of asics , you are a slave at the whim of the ASICS Miners, completely dependent on them to maintain the block chain.
Which if being a slave is your preferred choice, you might as well stick with fiat and your government overlords.
People that want the freedom to confirm their own transactions without an overlord's oversight Choose Proof of Stake.

the flaw is you think pos whales will cooperate.  people do not always do that  for instance  I asked you to retract a statement you made in this thread  which is a personal insult.  you choose to ignore my request.

On BCT  I am considered a whale or a major player. I could tag you for making that statement and not retracting it.  I won't  but here is my link to the solar array I am involved with


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1369207.0

it is on an old horse pasture with zero trees killed off.

It has been fully paid off due to last years coin runup

we use zero batteries
we are grid tied -- we sell  excess power in the day and buy back power at night
Contrary to your ignorant statement our actions lower the prices of power for our neighbors.

We sell power at 4 cents and buy power at 15 cents  that 11 cents is profit for the power company so we help to  lower the power companies cost of production of power which in turn lowers the customers power cost.

So while  wait for you retraction of that statement

Why don't you say I fucked up  when I made that statement it actually was an example of me not phil being ignorant and egotistical.

Based on my 20 years on the internet you will blow it off  and not do that.
Which is why
A} the world sucks in general
B}  and someone like you will always be "right"

Good luck with you life and that POS is better then POW belief system.


BTW I do think BCI  with a hybrid POW_POS setup is good as the   best of both setups can be used as a superior fusion of ideas.


also from your statement


"In Contrast, PoW users have to run their ASICS constantly as their performance/payout deceases per every 2 weeks,
by the end of a ~year, those ASICS are useless and entire new ASICS must be purchased."


based on this quote from you being true

how did this happen below
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

Difficulty History

Date-------------Difficulty---------------Change-----Hash Rate
Oct 18 2018   7,182,852,313,938   -3.65%   51,416,859,634 GH/s my gear is earning 3.65% more this jump
Oct 04 2018   7,454,968,648,263   4.23%   53,364,744,228 GH/s
Sep 20 2018   7,152,633,351,906   1.90%   51,200,543,878 GH/s
Sep 07 2018   7,019,199,231,177   4.34%   50,245,385,237 GH/s
Aug 24 2018   6,727,225,469,722   5.29%   48,155,355,642 GH/s

And you think Elite Mega Rich ASIC Miners care what you think?

The personal insult was removed as soon as I saw you used the word please,
if you bother to read the 1st page , you can see it was removed.

You however left your insult of PoS.

I felt no need to contact you directly , thinking you be smart enough to see it was removed.
My mistake.

*By the way the only copy of the insult is in your post, so delete your own post if you don't want to see it. *  :)





Cute Threat toward me,

Sorry , I don't care if you are Theymos.  :D



Being fully green means you are not dependent on the Grid at all.
You are doing nothing more than offsetting your energy cost, which is what any business would do.

Your problem is this, those ASICS have to be replaced in a year or so and then you'll need more electricity so those solar panels will not offset your costs as much. NJ is actually a lousy place to be a miner , you be better off in an area with hydro electric and those prices are way better.
You be priced out of the ability to mine in a 2 or 3 years and then you done. PoW has no future for you if you can't keep up with the mega rich guys.
Falling into the increasing input cost hamster wheel is what destroys many farmers, PoW miners in your situation are on the same hamster wheel.

Good Luck you're going to need it.

 As I said I could tag you but I won't.

You take it as a threat which as a typical internet troll that won't admit they are wrong would do.

back to my points which are true  answer them.

POS = piece of shit  it is basically a bank cd with zero protection

reply to that


you said "In Contrast, PoW users have to run their ASICS constantly as their performance/payout deceases per every 2 weeks,
by the end of a ~year, those ASICS are useless and entire new ASICS must be purchased."


based on this quote from you being true

how did this happen below
https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

Difficulty History

Date-------------Difficulty---------------Change-----Hash Rate
Oct 18 2018   7,182,852,313,938   -3.65%   51,416,859,634 GH/s my gear is earning 3.65% more this jump
Oct 04 2018   7,454,968,648,263   4.23%   53,364,744,228 GH/s
Sep 20 2018   7,152,633,351,906   1.90%   51,200,543,878 GH/s
Sep 07 2018   7,019,199,231,177   4.34%   50,245,385,237 GH/s
Aug 24 2018   6,727,225,469,722   5.29%   48,155,355,642 GH/s

Also My s-9's earn a profit from May /June 2016  until today Oct 2018

POW = Proof of Waste

Proof of Stake => Environmentally Sustainable Consensus for Crypto




LOL,

Turn your ASICS off for 3 months, ie: don't run them at all , turn them off.
Then compare our profit margin.
Then you'll understand the word "constantly".

With a PoS coin , I can leave it off 3 months and earn the same interest.
I do lose the compounding effect , but unlike a PoW I would not lose everything.   :D


Hybrid coins are no good, bringing the failure of PoW to the efficiently of Proof of Stake is a useless gesture.
Run PoW or PoS and take your stand.  Hybrid PoW/PoS are a waste of time as the energy wastefulness is still included.
In Time , the PoW will have to be dropped, as HoboNickel is dropping their hybrid status and moving to PoS only.
You don't tie a superior consensus such as Proof of Stake to an energy wasting consensus such as Proof of Work.
That is like creating a car that get 1000 miles to the gallon for 5 minutes and then burns 1000 gallons to go 1 mile the next 5 minutes.
No Point to it.  
 

To be clear about pos = piece of s... 

You can not insult POS. It is an idea not a person so it can not be insulted.

I don’t insult you for believing in POS I think you are mistaken to believe in the idea.

I do appreciate that you removed the insult directed at me.

I would love to see POS work I just don’t see how it will.
I don’t see regulation protecting pos coin holders.

I lost my interest on my ppc stake after I sold the coins before I got the interest.
I spent more then three days asking and talking to them about my stake issue and they did not have answers for me.

These are the people that developed the coin and basically they did not offer a solution to me.
So frankly I was disgusted with them.

Now BCI as a hybrid has clearly defined plan to pay interest.

They reward 10 coins to miners and hold 3 for stakers. from each block.
I get paid my interest weekly and I like the system.

That would be interesting , a coin such as bitcoin changing PoW algorithms to avoid attack.
It would however not guarantee the attacker did not have enough resources in the other PoW algo to continue.

Consideratiing a PoS Attacker would need 90% of the coins to pull off the transaction blocking attack,
doubtful anyone would try as attaining 90% of a crypto coin can become astronomically expensive.
And doing so would completely destroy his entire investment with no alternate use for his coins.

And you can make the same argument for PoW, why would the miner block all transactions when it would cost him his investment.
And the answer is, he would not , unless he had an alternative coin he was going to mine and no longer cared about the original.
Also switching algo may be seen to investors as a lack of confidence and cause a worse price crash than the original attack.

Which certifies for PoW the Value is in the ASICS , while in PoS the Value is in the Coin.
  

IMO, still no point to combing the two, just add a reorg limit to a PoW coin, or use a checkpoint server as PoW become centralized in time anyway.

Myriad coin rans multiple PoW algo, and an attacker caused problem by focusing on 1 single PoW algo.
https://www.reddit.com/r/myriadcoin/comments/2ybp3w/groestl_attack_still_ongoing/
https://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/47961/do-multi-pow-currencies-open-up-additional-attack-vectors-on-a-blockchain

For myself, I have some hopes that in the long term PoS could be added to Bitcoin itself ;)

As I wrote in the other post in this thread, the goal would be to "boost" security with no additional energy costs. This could already be achieved with 1 PoS block per 10 PoW blocks. It could be a solution for the times when block rewards - and thus, miners' income - are lower than now. While transaction fees could rise, I believe it's likely that the equation "attack cost / market cap" will be lower, and thus a "security booster" like PoS would be very helpful.

POW should be a thing of the past.

The only people that want to hang on to it, are the people with overpriced paperweights in warehouses.

POW people have the worst excuses for disliking POS.  It's disgusting & retarded.

How fast history's clock is ticking in your stupid world  ???

PoW has just started to conquer and some fools believe that they've got a new alternative, sick.

"This steam engine thing is just catching on..." or "Coal has just started to conquer"

K.

Networks would be more secure with POS than POW.

1.  POW opens your network up to technological advances that can disrupt your security.  

2.  POW market is as easy or easier to corner the market on than an actual coin (goes along a bit with tech advances, but there are other ways to do this as well... miners are HORRIBLY greedy people... DDOS a pool for 1 hour and everyone bails on that pool.)  When someone corners a POW markets mining power... you often can't tell because they divide the mining power up for the 'appearance' of decentralization and when they want to fuck you *poof*.  Over 73% of the Bitcoin POW is controlled by six 'separate' entities.  POW people argue "why would someone with that much mining power want to hurt their own coins?"  Well the same statement goes for the POS folks too and really the POS 'monster miner' has more to lose than the POW 'monster miner' because the POS value is directly tied to their 'monster miner'... whereas the POW whale could just be for lulz in between creating Atoms or something crazy.

3.  A ton of POW is based on criminals stealing computer power.  That crowd doesn't want that cash cow dead.  When you mine POW... you're competing against "electricity launders"/"computer power launders" that can easily afford $1 electric/comp power for 1 pennyworth of Bitcoin in return.  Switching major markets to POS would be a HUGE blow to these criminals pockets.

I could go on, but that's good enough.  I feel confident saying that I think I could get 80% of the Bitcoin mining network for 1 hour easier than I could get 80% of all the Bitcoins.  Bitcoin isn't going to change from POW to POS anytime soon though.

You are a bigger moron than I thought. Which POW coin would that be? Plus which POW coin that had switched to POS had any success? Ethereum could not even do it. Haha.


Then why should we grant perpetual powers to the originators of that system?

CLAM was a POW coin that switched to POS.

It's also POS based on POW.  The Clamcoin itself was 100% premined with POW, then distributed to BTC, LTC and DOGE addresses, and then POS was enabled.

It's not been overly successful though, but it hasn't been successfully attacked either.  You literally couldn't attack CLAM with all the computing power or fiat in the world today (maybe tomorrow after we all sold our shit to you and ran for the hills!  ;D :-*)

Then the community should beware and should save one eye for the CLAM, the future of money. The redeemer of the unbanked, the breaker of debt-chains, the Godcoin, the savior, the Bitcoin killer. 8)

Phew, you know all the right things to say to me!!!!!!!!!!!!

https://78.media.tumblr.com/17c9a68298af991c882ef161ffc4b804/tumblr_msmdf83IGl1spjvu2o1_400.gif

But really, probably not.  CLAM isn't suit & tie enough for this VC butthole licking economy.  :P

DOGE, CLAM........

wtf man, wake up.

Do you want to compare bitcoin to those projects? Those networks are barely used.

Do you know how many transactions are made daily in bitcoin network, and how many are made daily in CLAM?
CLAM marketcap is 800 BTC, on rank 488. This means that the whole CLAM project, all CLAM coins, are worth 800 BTC.

CLAM is basicaly a testnet, to test crazy ideas. And that's it. a Dead coin.


Bitcoin needs to be more conservative. Bitcoin cannot risk those untested protocols, based in vague ideas like "Save the environment", or "Pos is the future", based on vague arguments.

If Bitcoin adopts PoS or any other fancy protocol and there is even a smallest problem, the whole market will crash so spectacularly and probably never bounce back.

So, go spread those ideas in Altcoins board. Bitcoin needs to develop itself slowly and safe.

Which should point out to an observing mind , how weak Bitcoin and PoW consensus truly are.
A Massive Price drop can kill bitcoin due to it's insane input costs.

A Massive Price drop in a low inflation PoS coin is nothing more than a buying opportunity to increase your staking capacity.  :)
ie: PoS is superior to PoW in Survive ability.

I don't agree, that's not how it works.

Transactions fees are defined by demand and supply, basic economics.
It does not have a direct correlation with price.

In December when btc price was high the fees were high (the opposite of what you aaid).
Fees were high because there was a peak in demand , nothing to do with its price.

And high fees didn't kill btc, wasn't even a threat to it .

Nobody knows what problems pos will bring, as it has never been tested with a decent project with many transactions per day

Clarifying:

I am not talking about transactions fees , I am talking about the Bitcoin Market Price.

The production cost to make a Bitcoin is ~$3000 last I checked.
(This includes the warehouse/asics/Electricity input costs needed to Break Even.)

If the market price falls below that input cost of ~$3000, say only $1500.
That means with every new bitcoin block created the miners loses $1500 per coin which is $18750 (12.5 coins per block)
, and that is if the miner is selling every bitcoin he makes.

Which means the big players will hoard bitcoin and quit selling it as they have bigger pockets,
but even they can not hold out for long losing $2.7 Million Dollars per day or $81 Million Dollars per Month.

When too many miners drop out, the network Hash drops,
(having a difficulty only reset every 2 weeks is really a security vulnerability that has never been fixed, Most Alts reset Difficulty after every block.)
When the Hash drops too low , blocks are only found every few days, so the normal 2 weeks could take months to complete.
During this time almost no one will be able to get a transaction into the blockchain as onchain transaction capacity will be severely diminished.
Where you used to have potential of 144 x 1.7mb blocks full of transaction per day , you may only have 10 blocks or less.

Only chances for recovery would be
1.  The other miners start mining at a loss losing millions per day, doubtful as low prices is why they stopped.
2.  Wait months for it to work it out , doubtful everyone will switch to another crypto.
3.  The Bitcoin Dev team will have to reset the difficulty with a fork , which will cause a crises in confidence and hurt BTC price even more.


Do you now see the problem with having PoW insane input costs?
During even just a short market lull of 2 or 3 months,
bitcoin very survival comes into question, with no guarantee it will last long enough for the price to recover.

I hear alot of fear in your voice about Proof of Stake, it has been around since 2013 and so far none of the fairly tales about it's easy destruction have been accomplished by anyone.  Over 5 years and no one has performed a attack that destroys the Proof of Stake Consensus , it all been falsehoods and lies about how easy PoS is to destroy. PoW is only 4 years older and it's centralization & energy waste failure are paramount and undeniable to all but the bitcoin fanatics that never recognize any of it's failures  .

There are many PoS Only coins with multi-million markets caps and no one has been able to destroy one of them.  ;)
Blackcoin / Ardor / and Multiple others

I don't think that would be a really great problem. Let's suppose Hash rate drops to Half (what would be a very pessimist scenario). Instead of blocks every 10 minutes, we would have blocks every 20 minutes (on average). No a problem at all in my opinion.

And at the most 4 weeks, difficult would be adjusted and mining would be decentralized again, and ASIC would be gone.


A drop to 1/5 of the hashrate (high unlikely, as if miners do not mine, what will they do to that equipment? They will have to mine either way, or the loss will be bigger).
This could be a problem, that would be easily fixed with a fork. Anyway, bitcoin could even though be mined with low hashrates for like 2 months and then the problem would be solved.

In such a situation, of a big price drop, every other alt would be completely worthless and there would be no reason to mine them.




In all those 5 years, nobody was also able to prove that PoS fairy tale work in great scale also.

Those are all very small projects compared to bitcoin. Ardor has 100 million USD marketcap, which is about 40 times smaller bitcoin daily volume...... Comparing Ardor to Bitcoin is like comparing United States economy to Malaysia`s.

Even Vitalik Buterin is affraid of running Casper Protocol in Ethereum, because he knows that problems will pop up when it is up and running. And there are many problems related to PoS economy, which were already mentioned in this thread.

That is where you are misinformed, there are some alts that will skyrocket during a bitcoin crash.
Your problem is you think crypto depends on bitcoin, you are wrong ,
just as the car market does not still depend on the Ford Model A, crypto no longer needs bitcoin.
It has grown larger than a single coin.




If Fear is all you have as an excuse, then feel free to give up until PoW crashes and burns.

Proof of Stake can OutScale Bitcoin , about every Altcoin created after since Bitcoin OutScales Bitcoin.  :)

It is an irritant trying to have a logical conversation and all I get back is an emotional response of you are frighten, or devs are scared.   

Again 5 years and None of the Bogeyman fairly tales against PoS have occurred.
Look if you want to live in fear , your call.

There are plenty of PoS Devs that are not frighten by falsehoods spread by the bitcoin hype crowd.
They have done extensive research , and none of them have the slightest fear in the falsehoods put out by ignorant fearmongers.

I got better things to do than listen to how you are too fearful about PoS.

Those of us without fear shall push on, and the rest of you can hide and cower where you think it is safe.

FYI:
Fortune Favors the Bold , not the fearful!

Good Luck in your Course.

Ok then... I will let an image speak for me.

I believe this is just a coincidence, that all 1000 cryptocurrencies have the same graphic. THey are all crashing for different reasons, nothing to do with bitcoin.

https://i.imgur.com/dujQLkE.png




yeah, you are acting very logically using those blue letters and ignoring market movements...

Good luck for you too. I hope you find the coin you are looking for =P

Haha. But you do not have a real answer on which POS coin will replace Bitcoin to become "the Bitcoin".

The cryptocurrency that will replace Bitcoin as the numero uno cryptocurrency will NOT be a POS coin. When I say numero uno, I do not mean the highest in market cap but the most used, the most liquid, and the most considered to be the best store of value.

Any Low Inflation PoS Coin can replace Bitcoin, take your pick.
In Time, they will all be higher on CMK than bitcoin.  :)

The Blue letters has been proven to increase the amount of the brain used when read,
I am literally trying to make you use more of your brain, when you see me use blue, trying to help you think and not repeat useless hype.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/02/090205142143.htm

Daily Market movements are irrelevant in the long term evolution of a product.
Thinking a momentary price fluctuation matters is a fallacy.    
GIGO = Garbage In Garbage Out

No worries, ZEITCOIN will be around no matter what happens with the rest.
It can survive literally anything and it's network will march on.  :)

There are plenty of Proof of Stake coins for others to choose their favorite.


FYI:
Here is a comparison to show
Gaming Industry :  Atari was the 1st major player
Crypto  Industry :  Bitcoin was the 1st major player

Atari Lifespan   : 1972–1984
Bitcoin Lifespan: 2009-2022
*No Guarantee it will survive that long.*

A normal product lifespan is ~10 years before a newer faster more improved model take over.

By your false belief system , Atari should still be the #1 Game Console and yet it is not
Bitcoin will also not be the #1 coin by 2022.  :)

It is about product cycles not about false belief systems.

 

I suppose weak minds like yours need all the help they can get.   ::)



Other car manufacturers don't go to fordmodelatalk.org to advertise their cars.  They can stand on their own.  They have a significant advertising budget to independently market their products to potential customers.  They don't need to leech off Ford's success in order to be recognised.  

If you don't need Bitcoin, by all means leave and go to another forum to advertise your crapcoin.  That, or admit you're here to leech off Bitcoin's success because no one would pay your crapcoin the slightest hint of attention otherwise.  You can't stand on your own.  You don't have a significant advertising budget.

Very few altcoins are successful enough to market themselves to the public without resorting to their developers spamming here on the forums in a desperate and pathetic attempt to appear relevant.  You'd do well to remember that.  You need Bitcoin more than anyone.  It's the only way anyone could ever notice you and your crapcoin even exist.

Now are we done here?  Or did you need it in a blue font to comprehend it?

I think an introduction of PoS as a "security booster" for Bitcoin (with a rate of 1/10 PoS blocks or so, or an "approval mechanism" where stakers must approve some PoW blocks), like I mentioned earlier, isn't very risky. As PoS minters could never "take over" history if they only can produce a block in a row (only in collaboration with 51% of the miners it would be possible) an attack would have barely any consequences. The only chance an attacker had, was to create additional stale blocks if he tries to double-spend 1-conf transactions.

Of course, it should be tested for at least a year or so. But the "worst case" would be that it wasn't effective at all because of the Nothing-at-stake problem, and then the PoW hashrate would guarantee about the same security level than before.

What maybe is true is that we'll never see that because of sociological or mass-psychological reasons.

This is what ethereum casper will do.
On the beginning there will be one block minted with pos for every 50 mined with pow in ethereum casper.

I think ethereum could do first. If they manage to survive....

More details here

https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-FAQ

Yep, I was aware of ETH's "move". Didn't they already start with that process (with very, very low PoS block rate)?

I also think that if that works for a longer time, we could begin to consider a similar measure in Bitcoin.

A challenge would be the block reward for the PoS blocks (or approvals), but in Bitcoin transaction fee incomes are already so high that they could give incentives to "stake" (as there is no excessive electricity consumption needed). So no block reward may be necessary, and thus no change in the reward schedule / money supply.

There is a Reason your Nickname is Dumbmad.   :D



Sorry the truth hurts you, but it would not if you were not a bitcoin fanatic that can't tell the difference between
a product and a deity.  

Bitcoins barely used.  I've been doing this for over five years and I have met less than ten people in my day to day life that has Bitcoin.


I absolutely agree with this.  I'm not saying Bitcoin should accept POS tomorrow.  I am saying that I think it's a valid option and I believe it's more "secure" than PoW, ESPECIALLY for small "dead" coins such as CLAM.  I think POS will be more interesting for Bitcoin after the block rewards mellow out and the miners start switching off BTC or the equipment is simply no longer being made.

We have had a HELL of a time decentralizing CLAM.  In fact, it isn't decentralized atm.  Just-Dice has like 95% of the "mining" network.

Any POS coin? Be specific.

Plus why should we grant the originators of the, "POS coin that replaces Bitcoin", perpetual power over the network and its users?

Any low inflation PoS coin,

go look for one that you personally like and quit being a dumbass.
(Low Inflation rates vary from 5% down to less than 1%, take your pick.)

If you are so stupid you believe going with a Low inflation PoS coin gives them perpetual power over you then

1. You are a dumbass , because if they sell their coins, their so called perpetual power is diminished since they have to sell from their principle.
  
2.  You can stick with your Bitcoin , where the Few Elite Chinese Miners actually do have perpetual power over the network and it's users.
    (Funny how the fact you are literally the Chinese Miners bitch does not bother you in the least.)

3.  Stick with Fiat and your Government elected overlords.


For people that want freedom, Proof of Stake is the only game in town , because it is the only one where you can still confirm your own transactions.

FYI:
When a person buys a Low inflation PoS coin , they gain power in that specific network , when they sell coins they decrease their power in that network,
when you buy bitcoins or a PoW coin , you Gain NO Power in that network as transaction confirmation and fee price is always controlled by the miners.
(Of which only the Richest Elite can afford warehouses full of ASICS and the insane energy waste that comes with them.)

* Also in a PoS network coins go dormant after staking which give others stakers an increased opportunity to stake coins and add transactions,
there is nothing similar in a PoW network, in a PoW network their is no dormancy of ASICS to give others a chance. *
 

Is that how you chose your investments? Based on what you "personally like"?




That's the problem. Whales can just buy PoS coins and control the nertwork.

You cannot go to the walmart nearest to your house, spend 6 billion in S9 miners, plug all of them in the same plug in your bedroom and control bitcoin network.

But it is much easier to buy coins and control a network.

Additionally, PoW is proof of stake, because you are staking energy. You are staking something out of the system, and giving the energy you spend as a warranty that those transactions in a block are legit.

On the other hand, PoS is not PoW. You are betting coins , which are from inside the system. It is a closed system.

I choose mine on the coin specs and my own proprietary economic calculations without needing someone to hand hold me when I do so,
(I also have not hid the fact my favorite is ZEIT, but others may prefer different specs.)

I expect other investors to do the same, because at the end of the day it is their money and their choice.

If they are too stupid to make up their own mind like wind fury, they really have no business in crypto speculation.


You are missing the point , Whales can Buy a PoS coin , but the Whales Have to Sell them to make a PROFIT.
That act of selling decrease their control over the network immediately.

When your Bitcoin Miner sells all of his useless bitcoins , he gives up No control of the network or it's transactions or fee structure whatsoever.

Plus you PoW guys really seem to miss the point a Whale in PoS does not have Constant Power to block transactions where as  Miner Whales can block transactions indefinitely, where as in PoS , they can not.

* Your PoW is proof of stake line is beyond nonsense, PoW is not staking energy , PoW is Wasting Energy
Plus in a true Proof of Stake Network, their is a dormant period after staking, their is NO dormant period in PoW.
(Their is No increase in transaction performance with PoW increased energy usage, only more Wasted Energy to accomplish the same limited transaction amount. Bitcoin is not secured by electricity as many foolishly believe , it is secured by the Chinese miners that dominate ~70% of the mining, no different than the past two years, when the energy requirement were much lower 2 years ago.)
The Security in Bitcoin is Nothing More than the Collusion of a few Chinese Miners!
The Energy waste is Just Waste nothing else!


You are right PoS is a Closed System, (That is an advantage not a disadvantage.)
that means you are literally more invested in it , than in any PoW coin, because you can always mine another coin with similiar algo.
So if you do harm to your PoS network , you wipe out your entire investment where as a PoW miner can harm his network and just mine another coin.

*IE:  Mr. Wu has just started refusing all segwit transactions in AntPool's Bitcoin Blocks ,
this delays LN onchain redemption and increases the danger bitcoins being stolen thru the LN network, and their is nothing you can do to stop him.
You could buy all of the bitcoins in existence and he would still be your Master as you are utterly dependent on him for transactions.
If only a few others join him and they reach 51%, they can kill the LN network and their is nothing you can do to stop them.
(Suggest changing Algo and see how far you get.)  :D
Since Mr. Wu is mainly support Bcash over bitcoin, his concern for the bitcoin/LN network is decreasing per day.
If Bitcoin was a PoS only coin, he would never do the above as it could wipe out his entire investment,
yet with PoW he can hamper bitcoin and care little as he is supporting bcash more.  ;)

Any? Without consideration if that POS coin is really better than Bitcoin? Name one low inflation POS coin that could replace Bitcoin. I promise I won't laugh.


They have perpetual power because it cost the originators nothing to stake. What gave them the right to keep power perpetually, and why should we grant it to them?
  

The "few" are going to be "many". Japan and South Korean companies are doing their own research and development in ASICs for POW. Bitmain will not "rule" forever, if that's what you believe. While POS originators and whales will perpetually have the power over the network and its users.


What? Hahahaha!



"The only game in town"? Which cryptocurrency are we talking about? 8)

@ WindFury,

Ok you want a coin picked for you by someone else,  You go with Blackcoin as your PoS Choice.

PoS coins go dormant after they stake , No PoS holder can maintain dominance over a PoS network if his coins are dormant.
This dormant period gives other stakers a chance to stake, Bitcoin PoW does not have a dormant period.

Chinese miners which (Bitmain is 1) have ruled for over 2 years with ~70% ,
Sorry no signs of them losing power whatsoever, in fact with the recent price failures of bitcoin to return above $10000,
those Chinese miners are in a better position to not only maintain their % , but increase it.
That is the advantage to getting in early, they already have the infrastructure and experience required.
Enjoy that silly hope that they will be dethroned.  :D

In the meantime , Bitcoin Miner do have perpetual power over your money ,
however due to the dormancy period No PoS coin holder has perpetual power over your transactions.
If you can't grasp that , that failure of understanding is on you and no one else.

To try and make you think , answer this:
If a PoS holder never sells any of his coins , exactly where is the profit for him?
What good is his ever growing % of coins, if he never exchanges any for worldly goods?

Once you realize the answer to that,
it becomes apparent the PoS holder will always sell a % of his coins which will decentralizes a PoS network.
In Contrast to
a PoW Network where the PoW miner can sell 100% of his coins and still keep centralized control over the PoW network using his ASICS.

A Low Inflation PoS Design moves toward Decentralization or the PoS holder never profits.

A PoW Design moves toward Centralization as only the elite rich can maintain it insane energy arm race.


FYI:
Sidenote: PoW coins like Bitcoin allow the miners to choose transactions based on what fee price is payed,
Approving or Denying transactions if you don't pay their current extortion rate of the day

The Majority of PoS coins , charge a fixed low rate fee with no refusals or delays waiting approval from the staker,
also the transactions are entered in the order of appearance not a random order like PoW, (where higher fees jump in front of the line.)

The Standard PoS wallets don't have an option to refuse transactions,  they process all transactions in order by default.
Just another reason PoS is superior to PoW. Increase fairness and reliability in transaction processing.

FYI2:
ZEIT for example can process Maximum Transactions Capacity ~12 million transactions per day Onchain
Bitcoin Onchain Maximum Transaction Capacity even with Segwit is inferior to ZEIT transaction performance.

But you support POS in which the originators, stakers, whales of the network are granted perpetual powers because it costs them nothing to process, validate, or to vote on the network's behalf.


There are costs in POW and will always be. Bitmain will not "dominate" mining forever. It is you who do not grasp the situation, especially the situation in POS.


As a monetary system, the creation of POS coins from thin air have no costs, staking them to maintan the network have no costs. Why should "they" be granted the right to keep their power perpetually for free?


POS bears no cost to keep their power, POW bears costs and it is becoming more costly, especially for Bitmain now that competitors are coming in.



Zeitcoin? Good luck. It will NEVER replace Bitcoin.

What "dormancy period" are you talking about? Are you talking about having to wait a certain amount of confirmations before your coins can stake again? All one needs to do is use coin control and split their transaction into several different addresses, and recombine them when and if a UTOX gets too small. You can basically maintain the same staking weight perpetually, using only one node. Those with the most coins will have their weight affected much less after each stake than the little guys who only have a few coins to split.

Peercoin dormancy period 90 days
Tekcoin  dormancy period 30 days
Mintcoin dormancy period 20 days
Zeitcoin dormancy period  1 day  

You think you have enough of any of those coins to maintain control for that many days over everyone else.

What I saying is you can't block all of the transactions in a PoS network like you can in a PoW network.

And you would need alot more than 51% to even try it.

* IF a Bitcoin miner has 51% , he can basically find every single block in a row and therefore 100% control what transation are or are not included.
* In a PoS network even if the holder had 70% , he still be unable to find every single block in a row and control the transaction like what a PoW miner can do.
(The Dormancy period prevents constant control in PoS like what a PoW miner has.)

FYI:
The Dormancy period is the time before a block of coins is eligible to stake again after staking.
Staking weight is never constant as coins using coin age , # of coins are multiplied by the time since last staked.
So the more you split those coins into more blocks the less your chance of staking quickly.
As far as the little guys go that can't afford alot of coins, there best option is to combine all of their coins in 1 block and then use coin age to multiple that amount so it can earn new coins.  And the little guy that can only afford a few PoS coins has a snowball chance in hell of affording to mine a bitcoin.
PoS network have a greater degree of the Chaos effect protecting them , as you never know how many coins will be staking at a given time.

---

Deleted Posts by ASSHATS MODS



* @Lauda, I was going to leave btctalk for good, Until I saw your endearing message in my trust score, because of your concerns , I am going to stay.  :)  :D
* Alert your minions the game is now afoot.*

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That's it? The cost to be the perpetual power on the network is to run a node, or nodes if they want to Sybil attack the network.

POW costs are very high. They are so high that it will force some "powers" in the network to fail. Watch Bitmain, its "monopoly" will not hold forever, not like the originators of a POS coin.


Not as big of a moron as the person who believes Zeitcoin is the one true Bitcoin killer. Hahaha. 8)

Is this necessary? Won't this only add an unnecessary overhead in costs for staking in a POS system? I believe this will not only make the whales become the perpetual powers in the network, this will also absolutely centralize the validators in the system because the hardware development and creation are not the same as POW hardware's race for total efficiency.

https://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-foundation-filecoin-back-plan-to-make-proof-of-stake-hardware/

No wonder you are not getting any sort of merits.  not only because you believe that POS is a winner, but due to the way you try to present your idea.

see I have never learned English writing in school , it's very rare to find english speakers where i live, I learned what i learned mostly online and from watching movies and shit like that ! . and one thing I have learned "For Free" is that whenever you try to compare something to something else ,you have to address both PROs and CONs of EACH. you can't say

CONs of pow are ********************************

so POS is a the winner ! . really?


now back to the topic, the way i see it, the best chance that any POS project has is being  Hybrid PoW+PoS , that might actually work. ! . aside from that POS alone is bullshit at its best.

and as for the environment Banks around the globe consume much more power than every ASIC/GPU/FPGA combined. and if you want to play that environment card, then there are many other more important issues you should try to solve before you talk about POW. start with Make-up  waste disposal    ;D[/list]

Interesting. Unfortunately, the article isn't very clear with respect to the reasons for the development, and why a specific hardware would be needed. It sounds a bit like "trusted hardware", but it seems to be something different.

Currently reading this article:
https://blog.trailofbits.com/2018/10/12/introduction-to-verifiable-delay-functions-vdfs/

However, there is also something that sounds positive:
It seems to be an open hardware project, so a centralization caused by a single manufacturer seems not possible, and also the hardware should not be expensive, so there would not be much risk of "minting centralization".

Edit: I read the article now. It seems Ethereum wants to achieve a system where a dishonest majority (a "minter cartel") cannot game the random number generator. For me, it seems that this goal is difficult to achieve from the start, as even Bitcoin is attackable if the majority of the hashrate is dishonest. From my understanding the problem VDF wants to solve is similar to the "selfish mining" problem in Bitcoin. It may be simply "overcomplicating" things.

What are you talking about?
Ethereum casper is a transition from PoW to PoS. Every 50 mined blocks, there will be one minted PoS block.

This is not a bastardization, but a transition, as no one has ever tried POS with a real and big project before. This is something totally new.

Ethereum serenity will be full PoS. https://github.com/ethereum/wiki/wiki/Proof-of-Stake-FAQ

I believe you are just trolling around to make a +1 post for your chill coin...

I can only laugh at people that say we can mine Bitcoin with green POW.

They dont understand that the power can be used much better for other things.


Proof of Stake a security leck? These people should name ONE coin (not exchange) hit by an attack. I dont know one.

But I can name half a douzen relativly big coins attacked by an 51% hash attack.

And even Bitcoin attack is simple for a goverment. Or just for Bitmain. Think about they nearly control 51% of the pools. At the moment they dont do because it has no interest. But when BTC value is 50k $ then with a simple attack they can earn more money then they ever get with mining and seeling these "guess game" maschines.

There was never a coin with a large market capitalization using POS, that's why.


Government cannot do a 51% attack on bitcoin, because it costs energy and hardware. It would cost a blackout.

Let's suppose u.s.a government woild like to a 51% on bitcoin. Just go to the nearest Walmart, buy 6 million s9, plug all of them on the same room and done right?

It needs a long time to buy hardware, put them in different locations...it's doable but much harder than a POS attack. Just buy some coins and boom.

I believe you been living in PoW land for too long,
Proof of Stake Coins such as Blackcoin , MintCoin , and several others all run a PoS only coins derived from the Peercoin original design.
Sunny King invented Proof of Stake,  trying to act like Eth is Proof of Stake is nonsense.

The casper protocol, the fact Eth devs actually pretend that N@S is a issue, when it is a fairly tale for the PoS illiterate to believe.
Now the Random hardware nonsense, Eth proof of stake will depend directly on their smart contract system ,
No Real Proof of Stake coins have the security risks that eth bastardization using smart contacts based PoS will have.

Eth is making a PoS Frankenstein creature that is not really proof of stake.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Ethereum is not the True PoS coin you are looking for.
It is merely a hype driven over complicated smart contract hybrid and odds are when the security breaches to it happen.
Morons will all scream see PoS is unsafe, when the fact is PoS is Safe , but this bullshit Eth is doing is not.  ;)


I been studying True PoS coins for years, and their are many to choose from, Ethereum is not now and won't be later a True PoS coin.

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Government won't buy hardware to pull off a 51% attack,
they will capture Wu Family and Coerce him into performing one just as any Major Power like US, China , Russia or Europe could do.
* How many of the new design Antminers do you thing Wu's Company has been running before they start selling to the public,
 they been out competing the other PoW miners that buy ASICS from them for months, and now they sell them to the public starting today,
and you really don't think they have been profiting off of them at least all summer.  :P
* Oh and for the posers that think Wu does not have 51% thru multiple sources, the government can always procure his and then shoot tomahawk missiles into the other warehouses making Wu 100% not just 51%, that is the danger when your operation requires so much energy you can't hide it. *
PoS can be run off a laptop in a coffee shop and moved daily to secure it from direct military attacks like what can easily destroy bitcoin.


You lugnuts , always claim it is so easy to buy some coins and boom, put your money where your mouth is.
Pick any and I mean any PoS coin with a marketcap over $1 million dollars and show us how you break it.
Because I call you out on that it is so easy line, so put up or shut up.  :D
Or did you just want to admit you're flaccid now.

Gmaxwell made up most of the PoS fairly tales, he is supposed to be well off financially ,
why don't you PoW lugnuts ask him to kill a PoS coin to prove he was not lying the entire time.
Disclaimer : Gmax is one of the mods in this very forum, I know you're one of the posers censoring my posts.
He could at least write a multi staking client to at least give his N@S Lie a smidgen of credibility.

When its SOOO easy to do, hacker would do it just for fun.

And you did not answer the Bitmain 51% problem :-)