Bitcoin Forum

UPDATE #3
Here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55777085#msg55777085) i have posted all explaining current betcoin.ag claims (my account is out of the question now, i have been paid in full, but they refuse to pay all the winnings to the other person).
Finally i have now all the bet lists from the two accounts and i will post them to prove myself and KillyPG are not connected. Please remember that this is the information that betcoin.ag REFUSED to provide since the beginning of this thread. They were of course afraid to provide it, because there is nothing that connects the two different accounts there ;)

here is the full bet list
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55779792#msg55779792
GOOD LUCK FINDING ANY ABUSE IN THERE ;)


UPDATE #2

unfortunately i had to reopen this thread. Betcoin.ag refused to pay the other person his won money on the facts that they claim that account also belongs to me. They still say i am a scammer (even though they paid my balance in FULL).
My business (people pay me to hear my recommendations on bets) is now threatened, as the other person got his won money stolen BECAUSE he had SOME of his bets the same as mine.

Over the next few days i will be providing evidence in this thread. I want the public to see what shady actions betcoin.ag is taking. They refused to provide this info for months, but i got it directly from the SBR mediation agent. And now everybody will see the lies betcoin.ag is saying.

STAY TUNED !!!


UPDATE


I am happy to report, that after the mediation process (which was advised by the betcoin.ag representative from the very beginning) by the SBR (https://www.sportsbookreview.com/sportsbook-complaint/) a resolution has been made to this case and my funds are to be released.

As i have stated several times in my original post, this case was very far from easy from the very start. The moment i have signed up on Betcoin.ag website, i have already broke their terms and conditions, which unfortunately i did not read prior.

I have used the VPNs and as such my whole activity of course became suspicious to betcoin.ag security team.

A bit later, when my btc wallet was used to make a deposit to a different account, my activity had to be investigated further. This action by the betcoin.ag security team is of course justifiable, especially since they found out right away that the other account in question had some similar bets with my account (due to me being a tipster - a person, whose bets are followed by other bettors).

So all facts considered, i do understand that the activity of my account was suspicious to betcoin.ag and the investigation to follow was justifiable.

I am just happy that right away (in their initial response to my emails) betcoin.ag advised me to seek the mediation from the SBR.

Being a very emotional person, my first intention was to fight in public before any mediation. Well, it turns out, that all i had to do is wait for the SBR and betcoin.ag to investigate the case further.

Now i am happy that with the help of SBR and betcoin.ag security team we were able to come to an amicable solution where your account balance is released back to me.

I want to thank all the parties involved, and of course the BitCoinTalk community.

END OF UPDATE



What happened:: in short i had a loosing account with betcoin.ag, lost around 1.7 BTC, after last deposit of about 0.4 BTC got to about 0.8-1 BTC and account closed

Scammers Profile Link: betcoin.ag

Amount Scammed: around 0.8-1 BTC (had some pending bets)
Payment Method: BTC and USDT

Additional Notes: i will post long long long text in this thread, read it only if you are interested. I will be posting this matter to SBR also, and will update this thread accordingly. WARNING AGAIN, the text is VERY VERY LONG


Hello guys.

I am quite new to the whole crypto scene (although i have just yesterday ordered my Ledger Backup Pack and i own some btc and usdt, so i can probably be already called a “crypto enthusiast”), but thanks to this forum i have started using crypto to bet on sports.

I must say that bitcointalk was very helpful for reading about different bookies/casinos and i got a lot of information here, so Thank You All.

If bitcointalk is considered the best and most helpful crypto source on the web, i represent the best and most popular sportsbetting resource on the web - BLOGABET

It's a community where tipsters (those who provide tips on betting for others) and punters (those who want to bet and want to “follow” successful tipsters) interact and communicate, talking about teams, players, sport news, what to bet, etc.

Those who provide advice on what to bet (tips) can choose to get paid for this, and those who want to follow some tipsters, they think are successful (publicly recorded statistics are available), can choose to pay for the tipster services.

At the time of writing, the blogabet community has over 345 000 active members, with around 41 000 tipsters, 3400+ paid services and 3000+ active tips (Monday, is the quietest day).

Disclaimer: i am in no way trying to advertise the above mentioned website here, but all that i write about it will come into play later, when i explain my unfortunate situation with BetCoin.ag

My nickname on this website is Jimin Jibao. For the last 3+ years I have been using it and I do have the best overall (and all time) statistics among all the tipsters.

I have publicly and system recorded (can not be manipulated by users) yield of +52% on over 3100 bets.

At the time of writing i have about 10500 followers (on the profile page you can see only about 9400, the other 1000 is only email or sms subscribers that only i can see), that get all my bets, my updates and blog posts delivered to their emails, phones (via sms) and personal profiles on the Blogabet platforms.

I don't mean to brag, just stating the facts. All the above mentioned numbers are the best ever on the platform, and there is a very good opportunity that nobody ever will outperform me. It's almost safe to say that my profile will be the top top performer on this platform for years to come.

So here goes my sad story with the BetCoin.ag …
You all think you heard it before, a player wins large money with a bookie and they decide not to pay him …
No, my friends. It is not going to be like this. I will cut to the chase here …
Overall I lost in BetCoin.ag about 1.7 BTC and they still decided to close my account and refuse to pay me my balance (close to 1 BTC i think).

So here go all the details of this interesting case:

I am used to betting in conventional sportsbook companies, and have many many accounts with them. Most are limited now of course, as i won good money there. So bookies are of course funny and will limit you to 5 EUR maxbets after you win 1000 or 2000 …

Somewhere, i dont remember where, i heard about these “bitcoin bookies”, people were saying some good things about “them” .

Somehow I ended up registering in one of them. Made some bets there, lost in the end (i tend to try to bet all in, when i can. I go for big wins, and subsequently big losses).

Then deposited some money i think about 700 euros worth of btc. At night, I could not find any bet to take and went to sleep. When I woke up and after some time went back to this bookie, I found my balance to be almost 0. I didn't understand what was happening and was angrily talking to the support.

They claimed that at night (after i have deposited) my whole balance was withdrawn to some btc wallets. The users logged in from Brazil and some Middle East country i think…

And btc being anonymous my money is GONE.

I was very very angry and my first reaction was that the bookie scammed me. So immediately I went searching on the web for possible solutions.

That is the first time i came across bitcointalk forums i think.

Later the bookie support explained to me that my passwords were leaked online and how it was my own fault that all my btc was stolen from this bookie. They also gave me a big lecture on how i am supposed to take web security seriously, so on and so on.

* to BETCOIN.AG admins - you can verify the above statement by checking my email (you obviously know it) against the leaked passwords database - https://www.avast.com/hackcheck *

Apparently some of my passwords from YEARS back were leaked online as part of some big hackers attacks and me being stupid enough to use the same email/password combination in this “crypto bookie” caused me to loose all my money there.

This was the very first time I encountered something like this. Having just lost money (and i HATE losing money) and being lectured on web security in a harsh way by a bookie support i decided that it would NEVER happen again. Being not an expert, I talked to some friends and for starters they suggested virtual machines and VPNs.

So i installed a virtual machine (my computer being almost brand new also helped this idea, of not compromising any data on it and staying clean, i still was not completely in the know on what happened to my passwords and how exactly they had been stolen), installed VPN and started continued my research about “crypto bookies” (with hope that my money stolen before can still be somehow recovered). I have to admit I didn't know back then (and even now) how exactly cryptocurrencies were functioning …

This VPN advice also came in VERY handy for me, as i like watching live video feeds of the games i bet on.

So for example, you can't watch without a good VPN (and some vpns work ok on some video streams for some countries, and some don't) live streams from:

Japan https://basketball.mb.softbank.jp/
Uruguay https://tv.vera.com.uy/canal/6001
Colombia https://www.winsportsonline.com/live
And many more

Go ahead, click on those from your home country’s IP. You will get an error or a message that only local users can use it.

You cant believe how frequently the providers geolock the video streams.

Even Facebook does it. For example, i wanted to watch the match Buducnost - Brescia in EuroCup basketball on september 29th (and i THINK i had a bet on this game in betcoin.ag also, but i am not sure).

Try opening this video from your home country IP
https://www.facebook.com/124541200938889/videos/3097801983662216

You get “This Content Isn't Available Right Now” error message. Now try changing your IP to Italy. You get the video of the game playing ;)

So all in all my choice for VPN was a perfect solution for me, as i could finally be watching many many games (after subscribing to some foreign live stream providers and paying for access) that were unavailable for me before.

I also felt much more secure now as my friend assured me that virtual machines and VPNs were a very good way to protect yourself and making sure losing money to some hackers would never happen again.

So i proceeded with this set up and was exploring bitcointalk more (even with a faint hope to get that stolen money back), when i came up on a thread about a rating of BTC bookies.

After checking out some of the BEST RATED bookies (i mainly bet wild leagues in wild countries, so not all bookies offer those), i finally decided to open account in BetCoin.ag

My BetCoin.ag user is

This was I think at the end of July.

However the first deposit I made to this bookie was on August 10th. It was a small deposit of 0.00523129 BTC. I dont usually have BTC available (as i was not really into this thing that time for sure), so when i came across some, i decided to try.

I dont remember what happened, i probably lost it all the same day. Or some days later, but my records show that the next deposit was September 17th - 0.10+ BTC. That one i lost also, and the next came already in October.

Overall here is the table of all my deposits to BetCoin.ag (as far i can see from the email confirmations i got):

Aug-10 0.005231   
Sep-17 0.105774   
Oct-1 0.028727   
Oct-2 0.090000   
Oct-12 0.105000   
Oct-12 0.430324   
Oct-12 0.000005   
Oct-12 0.031000   
Oct-15 0.544224   
Oct-18 0.056000 (this was made with 659 USDT, so the BTC equivalent is approximate)
Oct-20 0.200000   
Oct-20 0.220171   

Since then I made ONLY ONE WITHDRAWAL of 0.1 BTC on October 19th (2 days later they closed my account).

So total deposited about 1.8 BTC and total withdrawn about 0.1 BTC
So total lost on the account about 1.7 BTC

Generally, as you can see from deposits LOL, the month of October (and September also actually) was a very bad month for me in terms of betting. I always ended up loosing.
So after my small withdrawal of 0.1 BTC on October 19th, the next day i lost all the money in the account. Most money i lost on Vietnam Basketball game Hochiminh City Wings - Danang Dragons on Oct. 20th. I was really confident in that game but ended up loosing i think around 0.4 - 0.5 BTC (don't remember exactly). I also tipped BIG that game  on my Blogabet (https://jj1ba0.blogabet.com/pick/32501804/hochiminh-city-wings-vs-danang-dragons).

There were other bets that i took that day of course (i take many many bets every day), some won, but mostly lost.

The balance became 0 (or close to it) and after that i made these last deposits of 0.2 and 0.22 BTC the same day.

Next day was October 21st

I took many many bets in pre match betting, maybe some bets live also. Generally i tend to take many many bets, some small, some big, i really cant remember the small single bets that day. These bets are from different sports also, mostly basketball, but many footballs, handballs, volleyballs, hockeys ALSO. You can check my statistics on Blogabet and see the different sports i tend to bet.

Most of the bets that day were accumulator (combo) type bets. Most of them consisted of 3, 4, 5 and some even 6 (i think) matches.

The matches were from Japan basketball, EuroCup basketball, some Turkey football and others.

I think ALL the bets in those combos won and at the time, when my account was locked, some bets were already settled, some had some games remaining, but the balance already was 0.7 BTC (700 tokens, i have screenshots of that) and with some big combos still pending (later the last matches won). So with those big combo bets won i dont know what the balance was (because i would no longer be able to login to the account), but i assume at least 800 tokens but close to 1000 i THINK.

Funny enough, one of the last games pending was Buducnost - Ulm basketball game in EuroCup - REMEMBER this game, it will come into play later in my story ;)

So once again, i want to mention, that the won bets on this “last day” were the big multi game accumulators consisting MOSTLY of Japan and EuroCup basketball (these games are available for betting in Pinnacle for example for 1500+ euros maxbets per click, so these are considered BIG LEAGUES).

So, later this day i was able to login to the account anymore and was told by the livechat support to email contact@betcoin.ag

From those guys i got this:

Hello, your account was permanently closed per our policies regarding
fraud and multi-accounting, plus playing from a banned region.
https://www.betcoin.ag/support/betcoinag-terms-service

Do not create any additional accounts at Betcoin.ag or any other site
associated with Global Limited Holding EOOD (“GLH”) or Coing Gaming
Network (CGN) or they will be closed and funds seized, including the
deposit.

To which i replied:

I have used ONLY one account
what about my money i have in my account now 0.7 BTC plus pending bets
? you will send all the balance after the bets are settled?

And their FINAL email wasL

We have considerable evidence that fraud was committed. If you would
like to seek 3rd party mediation, we will be happy to share the evidence
with the mediator.
https://www.sportsbookreview.com/sportsbook-complaint/

Will will not respond further.


That is the last time i heard from them …

Also want to reiterate that i made many many bets with them (mostly loosing), in this time i have accumulated 903/1000 status points needed for next rewards level (real number is much bigger here, coz i only recorded 903 way before many last bets were settled).

Judging from the screenshots i have (the affiliate link and the url address),
my user ID was 294961

I want to state, one more time, officially, that i DENY ALL the accusations made by BetCoin.ag security:

I have NEVER committed ANY fraud while betting in BetCoin.AG
I have ONLY used one single personal account while betting in BetCoin.AG and i dont have any more accounts on this platform.
I am a EU citizen and my country IS NOT on the list of prohibited countries in the terms and conditions of BetCoin.AG found on https://www.betcoin.ag/node/3549


If this goes public, I ask BetCoin.AG support not to disclose my exact EU citizenship (just to acknowledge it when I verify it with all the needed documents), due to the fact that my profile Jimin Jibao being is very popular on Blogabet platform and everybody want to know where i am from. I want to keep my anonymity there. So i ask you not to mention it publicly after you confirm it. Thanks.

Unfortunately this is not a complete story yet.

As i said, i am part of the Blogabet betting community (with hundreds of thousand people, and my personal 10000+ followers), there i have many people i discuss bets with.

About 2 weeks ago i have recommended the BetCoin.AG platform to my fellow blogabet user, a citizen of Montenegro.

This person’s opinion i trust in basketball, and actually he has recommended to me a couple of times a good bet on EuroCup basketball on his HOMETOWN team Buducnost Voli Podgorica. Based on his recommendation i have taken bets on this team in my BetCoin.AG account also (he also recommended a smaller bet on Unicaja in the same tournament, they play in the same group actually, so he knows them good). The bets on this team Buducnost and a little on Unicaja i took only in big combos and its the only time i bet on this tournament even. I usually bet on “more exotic” countries, like Uruguay, Japan, Mexico, Korea, Vietnam, etc.

On october 19th, my friend tells me that he finally opened an account in BetCoin.AG (user id 296772 judging from screenshots, username KillyPG. As he is even a bigger newbie in crypto than me, and i owed him money, he asked me if i could help him with deposit of BTC to this bookie. I did, and sent 0.1 BTC for deposit.

So from that day, October 19th he also started to bet in BetCoin.AG.

Yes, we communicate with him on bets.
Yes, he follows almost all my bets, because i have the best ever statistics on Blogabet
Yes, i respect his opinion on basketball, especially on his HOMETOWN team Buducnost and other teams they play against

NATURALLY, we may have SOME of the same bets in our betting accounts in BetCoin.AG

I CAN NOT remember all the days of course (as you can see me and this guy were members of this bookie at the same time only for 3 days), but i can clearly remember the last day.

I took many big basketball combos with many many games, and he recommended his hometown Buducnost and Unicaja (from same group) bet to me. I have recommended Tokyo Alvark from Japan basketball (i had it in ALL combos i think).

So now talking to him, we realize that that day we both had combos in which Buducnost, Unicaja, Tokyo bets were the same. I REALLY DONT SEE A PROBLEM in that.

We probably also had other same bets that day because YES we are from the same community where we discuss bets. If one of us finds a good or super bet, we SHARE and each try to bet it.

IT IS NORMAL and it is done by everybody. That is a point of betting and tipster communities.

But, as you may have guessed correctly, later that day his account was blocked also.
After not replying for long time, he finally got the same generic reply:


Hello, your account was permanently closed per our policies regarding
fraud and multi-accounting, plus playing from a banned region.
https://www.betcoin.ag/support/betcoinag-terms-service

Do not create any additional accounts at Betcoin.ag or any other site
associated with Global Limited Holding EOOD (“GLH”) or Coing Gaming
Network (CGN) or they will be closed and funds seized, including the
deposit.


After these for the past 4 days, they have not replied anything else to him, even though his balance was around 0.4 - 0.6 BTC (lots of unsettled bets also, he doesn't know the exact balance)

He then reached out to me, asking what the hell could have happened, as i “advertised” BetCoin.Ag as a trustful and very highly rated bookie. One of the arguments I used, when recommending BetCoin.AG to him, was that there is always an excellent bitcointalk community that can help to solve any injustice the bookies decide to do.

As i am a more public character than he is (the brand Jimin Jibao is very much known among punters around the world), and as it was my recommendation, he asked me to follow up on this case here.

Obviously the BetCoin.AG security team somehow wants to connect our accounts, but it is definitely a HOAX.

Officially, my friend, username KillyPG, user id 296772, denies ALL THE ACCUSATIONS from the BetCoin.AG team and states:
He never committed any fraud while betting on BetCoin.AG platform
Never has he used any other account than username KillyPG, user id 296772
He is citizen of Montenegro (allowed by terms and conditions) and has always used his mobile phone registered on Montenegrin 4G network to bet on BetCoin.AG website


I am very sorry for this long tirade my friends, but i feel it is much better to lay our ALL THE FACTS right away, so a suitable solution can be found.

Me (user id 294961) and username KillyPG (user id 296772) also feel that it is better to create one thread about this case, than two separate one, because it looks like BetCoin.AG security teams wants to connect these cases.

Now we have laid out all the facts, and it is clearly can be seen that some kind of mistake has happened (probably some automatic block triggers) and after we provide all the required documentation this matter can be of course resolved.

We also want to thank the BitCoinTalk community for an opportunity for bettors to be HELPED in situations like these.

Thank you all again, and SORRY for long long text.

Hello, as stated to you via email and DM, your Betcoin account was permanently closed for fraud. You used a VPN to circumvent our ban of the Ukraine. Players from this region have not been allowed for over 2 years due to widespread abuse, which has been well documented in this forum. Additionally, we have ample evidence that you are the owner of multiple abusive accounts at Betcoin.ag. We have suggested to you that if you believe this was an error to contact SportsbookReview and seek 3rd party mediation. We will be happy to share our evidence with the mediator and abide by their judgement. Thank you.

I have stated this already many times, and will repeat myself

1. I am not from a banned region (not from Ukraine as you are implying). I am ready to provide all and any documentation, evidence, selfies, videos, pcr and urine tests. Whatever is needed. I just ask you not to publicly say where i am from (for the reasons i explained in the LONG LONG text above). I am EU citizen and my country is not on the banned list.

2. I have ONLY ever used one single account in betcoin.ag (why would i need more if i am loosing big time there anyways?). The other account, you are obviously implying is mine (why obviously, its all explained in the LONG LONG text above) - i have NO RELATION to whatsoever. Its an account of a fellow blogabet-or who is based in Montenegro

i will be creating a report via the SBR now of course, but your accusations are just laughable.

you want to connect two accounts together from different countries, created in different months ONLY because they had some same bets. SOME, a small portion of bets.

Why the bets could have been the same is explained in the LONG LONG text above. My name is Jimin Jibao, i have the best ever statistics among all tipsters worldwide (over 52% yield from over 3000 bets). People do follow me and my bets.

What you are trying to do here, is to call foul on a "multi account" rule, if two people bet the same games?

This undermines the whole point of betting and tipsters communities and sounds very very manipulative to me ...

Please post your proofs of this (screenshot or whatever). It's suspicious if your next bet was cancelled in middle of game.

Just want to ask you 1 Question, if the user has used VPN , why you don't permaban him while he made first deposit? (On Aug 10)



Can you confirm first whatever OP said is correct or not about their deposit above?

To clarify, we never said anything to you about betting the same games. This is not a suspicion This is part of a detailed investigation, which has proven that you multi have multiple malicious betting accounts. We will share our evidence with the 3rd party mediator and abide by their decision.

sorry i dont understand. My bets were not cancelled (at least i dont know), there were just more games later that evening WHICH were still yet to play ... WHEN my account was closed, so i dont know exactly how much btc was on my account later ...

Your account already closed, you don't know either whatever the bet was cancelled or still pending, that's why i assume your next bet got cancelled due to you got a permaban

well, cancelled or paid, doesnt really matter.

They told me they are not paying me any of my btc there :(

We do not ban players for using VPN unless it is determined that the VPN is used to circumvent other TOS (in this case, multi-accounting and banned region). These are handled on a case by case basis, depending on the violation. In most cases related to banned region, players are allowed to receive the deposit back, at minimum. In this case, due to the abusive nature of the accounts, the balances were seized. Otherwise, it incentivizes the fraudster from returning, knowing that at worst he will get his money deposited back.

Like most Bitcoin sites, since we do not require KYC, we review the account activity upon withdrawal. As he mentioned, his first withdrawal was sent, because at that time, we did not suspect any wrongdoing other than VPN use. Upon requesting the second withdrawal, we saw that the player had made some mistakes between the first and second withdrawal and an investigation was launched.

We would never close anyone's account without speaking to them first unless we were 100% certain of fraud. In this case, we have very clear evidence. We cannot share this with the player, because it helps them find ways around it for their next fraud, but we are prepared to provide them to a third party mediator, which we have been suggesting to this player since the day this event occurred.


We do confirm this player's deposit history is as stated. If the third party mediator believes the player is due his deposit(s) back, we will certainly comply, however due to the nature of this incident, it has been our experience that it will not be the case here.

please clarify, you claim that the other account that is mine is this KillyPG, user id 296772 account? the other account that you closed and refuse to pay btc from. Correct?

while the betcoin.ag representative is online and decides to ignore questions

i just want to prove that i was not joking about the Jimin Jibao from Blogabet part

https://i.gyazo.com/3bfda2f395db1b9e69a2c7287f1cbb93.png

this is posted in the best profile of Blogabet http://jj1ba0.blogabet.com/ , the best tipster community in the world.

I am Jimin Jibao and i feel did nothing wrong here (ESPECIALLY considering that i lost 1.7 BTC to this bookie)

For now it is only visible when you visit the website on a PC, but later i will be adding a special page to my website www.jiminjibao.com to explain how my money was stolen

Hey Jimin , since Betcoin agreed to offer you mediation through SBR I guess you should just go with it cause we can't do much here about it without Betcoin sharing their findings

you can fully count on SBR fairness and they had some cases in the past where bitcoin sites were involved , so just go with SBR mate and let us know how it goes

We didn't just agree to the mediation. We encouraged it and sent him a link to file the claim a week ago. If there was a way to share the info here without cheaters learning new ways to get around security, we would love to.  Many people don't realize the amount of time and money spent on these detection tools. That said, we're look forward to providing SBR with our overwhelming evidence and resolving this matter.

All of this sounds very shady.

You did not answer the question somebody asked.
You say he is from a banned region but let him deposit countless times. And once he wins something back what he lost you ban him? yeah right.
I read this all the time. People deposit and lose and lose, no problem. They wina  tiny amount back and you block them with accusations and results giving the customer no chance to even reply.

And how do you prove he is from ukraine? He says he can send all the documents but you are not interested? What kind of behaviour is this?

We do not allow someone from his region to create an account. Had he tried to register from his home country, he would have been blocked prior to depositing. Instead he used a VPN  to get around this. We did send 1 withdrawal prior to discovering this. Upon reviewing the second withdrawal, we discovered the banned region and multi accounting.

We will provide the mediator with evidence of both of these and abide by whatever decision they make. We take these matters very seriously and payout amounts larger than this many times each day. We will report back as soon as this situation is resolved.

I think everything will be settled when OP will providr the evidence needed proving that he played in a different country and not playing on a banned vountry which is Ukraine. I guessed there is no more point on putting up arguments here as what you have said you'll be waiting for the post the OP made in SBR and you'll be happy with what ghe mediator will be deciding in his case. I just hope that what the OP will be providing will be enough for SBR to side in him if he is really right and what he is saying isn't a lie.

wait wait, you are implying that UPON REVIEWING a BTC transaction, you DISCOVERED i was from UKRAINE?

i will tell you what you have discovered upon reviewing my transactions. You have discovered that one of my deposits was made from the same btc address as the deposit in the other account (a Montenegro citizen) i have mentioned in my long text.

And i have openly stated that, that i have owed money to this guy, and he asked me to transfer BTC for him. Which i did.

I thought the whole point of crypto was that it is anonymous and not centralized.

Are you saying that it is against rules for deposits of different accounts to be made from same btc wallet? Is that how your systems discovered and "linked" these accounts of two different people in two different countries?

second withdrawal?
my records show only one withdrawal. Please explain this

thanks

What a car crash of a scam accusation. Straying all over the place, adding totally irrelevant information and showing a total lack of understanding when it comes to certain things (like VPN's). I have a feeling you lost a lot of money, then hatched a plot to try and pretend somebody stole money from your account in order to try to scrape back some of what you lost. You need to let go of what you lost and move on. Stop gambling permanently because when you use phrases like "i tend to try to bet all in, when i can. I go for big wins, and subsequently big losses" it shows that you have a fundamental lack of understanding on the mechanics of casino operations and are destined to only lose more.

I did loose a lot of money. As i said, i did deposit 1.8 BTC and withdrew only 0.1 BTC, but at the time account was closed the balance on it was around 0.8 - 1 BTC

Betcoin.ag are not denying i had this balance on the account, so please dont write ridiculous things about "hatching a plot to try to pretend ..."

And please, dont waste your time on teaching me how to bet ;)
No offense intended, but i do understand a thing or two in betting. And the money i lost in betcoin.ag is around my daily betting turnover, so its not that big. But i just refused to be pushed around like that. That is all.

I respect your opinion, but obviously you didnt get to the bottom of this, if you said i was trying to pretend i got money stolen ...
that is not the point here

To summarize, this player, who is accused of multi accounting, has posted a single thread for 2 accounts, and stated in this thread that he not only placed the same bets as the other account, that the funds came from the same bitcoin address. "I owed him money" is the equivalent of "the other account logged in from my house was my roommate." Best of luck to you in the mediation. We will reply again once it is resolved.

yes, all is correct
A single thread for two accounts, and i have explained it in details. And no, we didnt take the same bets. Some of the bets where the same yes, but the small amount of my bets for example. If its a Champions League final day and Real and Barcelona are playing, "half of the planet" would bet Real and "the other half" Barcelona.
Would you claim they are multi accounting because they have "the same" bets ?

Most gambling sites will never ban users from using VPN if something fishy is not detected about the account, some VPN cant be easily spotted and this is what I usually warn gamblers about not using VPN for any gambling site in other to avoid future complications.

Do you use or not use VPN to visit the site?

Be informed that every game you played which is result is yet to be published while your account is closed will be automatically cancelled.

1. I have written in the text above that i did use VPN to connect to the site, as i had a virtual machine with VPN constantly connected. And i used the website from it.

2. That is not that important, i had only a few games with small odds left on those big combos. Most of the games (3-5) games in each combo have already won, but the combo bet itself was not settled, so i dont know exactly how much BTC my account had. Even if they would cancel the remaining games, a lot of combos would have won and the balance increased obviously.

Can you please confirm the amount of tokens i have in that closed account of mine. Because i can not know the exact amount, as some bets were still not settled when you have closed it.

Please confirm the exact amount in token or in BTC

thank you

Can you please confirm the balance of my account when it was closed, including the unsettled combo bets.

thank you

i dont know why you are stalling the process on purpose. I have asked you multiple times to confirm the exact balance.
Finally, without it, i had to fill in the complaint with incomplete information :(

The bookmakers always act like they own this world... now trying to own the crypto world also...

the fact that btc deposits to different betcoin.ag accounts came from same btc wallet can not be a proof of anything illegal !!! otherwise we are doomed ...

i dont like how betcoin.ag representative handles this case.. why doesnt he answer straight questions?

Hello, we are happy to answer any questions the community has regarding this matter that don't directly affect the investigation. We are in this thread for that reason. Our business with the player, however, has concluded and any communication with him will be dealt with through the third party mediator.

As mentioned, we have sufficient evidence that this player has maliciously violated multiple terms of service. We have been trying to resolve this matter for a week, when we provided the information to the player to file a claim. Instead of filing a claim, he has spent his time on forums. If he does file the claim, we will share our evidence with the mediator and we are confident they will decide in our favor. If not, we will gladly take their advice regarding a resolution.

We pay out many larger payouts than this each day. We have no absolutely reason to withhold legitimately earned winnings. This isn't an ambiguous case, but clear-cut abuse. We are taking the hard way out by refusing to give into his threats to post in the forums. The reason for this is that we cannot incentivize fraudulent players to return and attempt the same cheats. We feel this is a service to the Bitcoin community, which as we all know is already filled with dishonest individuals.

Betcoin.ag has grown exponentially in the past few years and has many trusted members of this forum using it frequently. We would never do anything to break the trust of our tens of thousands of regular users. As mentioned, if the player does file the claim, we will cooperate fully and post an update here with the resolution. If anyone has any questions or concerns, we are here for you any time. Thanks and best of luck to all.

I did file the claim already of course, but i had to do it with INCOMPLETE information, because you keep ignoring my questions.

let me try again.

if the mediator is investigating the case for now, it means, that for at least for now, I AM NOT GUILTY.
There exists a probability that you will have to pay back the money you that was on my account.

So, please, i ask you again. How much BTC was on my account after you have closed it?
I want to know the exact current balance. I think i am entitled to have this information. And i authorize you to disclose it publicly here.

thank you

Abuse of what?

i have deposited 1.8 BTC to your bookie, and have withdrawn 0.1 BTC from it.

Please explain to me, how did i abuse your bookie betcoin.ag?

The mediator will have full access to all account information, including balance, wager and login activity.

Please, i want to know, the balance of my account that you have closed. Is that a secret?

Why are you treating this guy like this?
What a pathetic behaviour and terrible customer support. This guy is asking the same question 5 times and you ignore it over and over again.
He is a losing player on your site, you should be glad to have him. But yet you treat him like shit.

I hope this case opens the eyes of some other players here to not play on your site.

So sick of bookies kicking their customers in the ass.

Deposit? ok, losing? ok, winning? hmmmm..., withdraw? "there is a problem with your account"

Why would they treat someone they believe is abusing their site with respect?

Let me pull out an extreme for you.. If someone murders your SO in cold blood and you watch it happening, will you happily answer any questions the murderer has for you? If you say yes that will be quite silly.

Lol, you serious? How do you compare that? Are you drunk?

This guy has lost a lot of money of money on this site first of all. There is NO DAMAGE for them. Think about that. They made quite some money off him. While he deposited and lost there was NEVER A PROBLEM.
Also, they dont show any proof to him. They just say " thats the case , deal with it" . So he gets no chance to defend himself.

I have gone through similar cases, obviously you did not so you dont understand.
If you feel treated unfair buy site scamming you thats the worst, trust me. Most customer support people have NO RESPECT for the customers, and this is yet another case.

I have to make the extreme comparison for you to understand but you clearly didn't. I'll be following this and see what the mediator will rule.

The least Betcoin must do is return the deposit. Considering the situation, I also think Betcoin.ag is forced and has the duty to give you for example a transaction history, with deposit hashes for example. Then we can soon find out what is deposited and what is withdrawn.

Now I see why you are biased.

"I've been managing the Betcoin.ag Signature Campaign for a couple of months already"

Ur a joke.

If you are going to claim my opinion is biased how about yours mr. "scammed-by-nitro". You clearly have no interest in taking part in or even trying to be part of the community here, you just want to spread crap because one site wronged you, but hey how about we chase everyone away who is operating in the crypto space and see what happens after that?

LOL
 
Get a life little girl. Of course you are biased because you work for them .

Fking joke, thats what you are.

Now keep defending them, maybe they pay u another 10$ for your services. But stay off the alcohol, its obviously not good for you.

Get a life you say, while you repeatedly just talk shit about gambling sites on a forum. I'm fine with my life btw, working and making the wheels turn :)

How long the process of SBR mediation though? The reason why I'm asking is that maybe both parties should just wait for it instead of throwing words around. Someone already getting his attention here, so it might be better to wait for the mediation and then see how it goes.

We hope the process is swift and will be replying to all communication from SBR within 24 hours. They are well known as the authority in these cases and definitely impartial. We are prepared to share all our findings with them and comply with their decision, in full.


We understand that returning the deposit in many cases of multi-accounting is the industry standard and will be happy to do so if SBR decides that is appropriate. We do that on our own every day, however in this situation, we are able to prove that the multi-accounting was malicious to abuse the site's other TOS. Based on our evidence, we feel there is 0 chance that this player will be eligible to receive any winnings. In cases of obvious fraud, this is the rare time to seize the deposit, as it is the only thing that disincentivizes the player to return. Imagine being a cheating player and knowing that you can continue to return via VPN on as many accounts as you wish and the worst that will happen is you will get your deposit back.  


This player was ineligible to play at Betcoin from the moment he signed up, using a VPN to circumvent our ban of players from his region. We weren't sitting back collecting deposits from him, waiting for him to finally win. However, like all sites that don't require KYC, we do not review an account until a withdrawal is requested. In this case, based on the initial review, he received his first withdrawal without issue. Had we been aware of his wrongdoings prior to this, we would have shut him down on the first withdrawal. After that withdrawal, however, we were able to use our fraud detection tools to determine that he had knowingly cheated the site.

We understand that in these cases, the benefit of the doubt can go to the player. Especially, since we are unable to share publicly the overwhelming evidence against him. The reason for this is that when dishonest players discover our tools to recognize fraud, they move on to new ways to cheat the system. We have invested heavily in these tools, as we get roughly 500 fraudulent players each year. If any of these accounts dispute their resolution, we encourage them to seek 3rd party mediation. In the last 4 years, we have had 0 rulings against us by independent 3rd parties. It is simply not in our best interest to hold this player's nominal winnings when we know going into it that we will have to defend ourselves in the public forum. Taking on this player in the public eye, we assume all the risk.

We have many players each day placing individual bets which are more than double the size of this player's total account balance. We love winners, and like all casinos, we love to promote our big winners, as it lends to our legitimacy and attracts new players. We kindly ask that you allow the process to take its course here and we strongly believe that we will end up on that right side of things. Thanks again to all, and we hope to resolve this matter as soon as possible.

This is not totally true what you write. You write that the worst thing that can happen is that a player creates multiple accounts and gets his deposit back. That is not true. Can't he also play with multiple accounts and lose his money? And what do you do then?

i understand the need for harsh comparisons sometimes, but please try to understand that "i did not murder their SO", i actually murdered MINE in the process ....

i have deposited 1.81 BTC to betcoin.ag and have withdrawn only 0.1 BTC

yes, i still had balance in the account (and for days now i am trying to find out WHAT balance it was, but being ignored by betcoin.ag representative), but i would still not covered all the deposits i have made.

I WAS NOT ABUSING their system as they claim. Where is the abuse? Depositing regularly and loosing the btc? Is THAT the abuse?

Ok, i do realize that i have made a mistake of using VPN to connect to the website in the first place. And that is against the rules. I do understand this and i am ready to face the consequences, but what they are saying about multi accounting is just simply ridiculous and there is absolutely no way they have any evidence of that.. they simply CANT HAVE. We are two different people, in two different countries.

The fact that the other player's account was deposited from a same btc wallet address as my account, can not be evidence of ANY WRONG DOING.

It is the nature of crypto !!!

Its very logical what you say, but please consider these facts:

1. Betcoin.ag for days now simply refuses to tell me what the balance of my account was when they closed it and confiscated money. I dont have this information, because (as i remember) i had pending 4-6 match combo bets with completed matches won and later pending matches won also. So i STILL dont know the balance of my account and i was not able to supply the complete information in my SBR claim. I waited and waited, but finally decided to submit the claim with incomplete info.

2. As i have been informed by the person, whose account is PROBABLY in question (probably, because betcoin.ag refused to answer this question also), betcoin.ag support simply IGNORES his emails. They just told him they close account, and thats ALL. Nothing further, they did not tell him that he can file an SBR claim (which i think he did anyways). They just simply ignored him.

They say they will comply with mediator decision, but they act like i am already convicted and i dont even have the right to know the amount of BTC they confiscated from me. I thought that people are generally NOT GUILTY, until proven otherwise...

Hello here guys

I think i’m the other account holder in question here. My account is closed and money gone. I received only one email from betcoin security team:

Hello, your account was permanently closed per our policies regarding
fraud and multi-accounting, plus playing from a banned region.
https://www.betcoin.ag/support/betcoinag-terms-service

Do not create any additional accounts at Betcoin.ag or any other site
associated with Global Limited Holding EOOD (“GLH”) or Coing Gaming
Network (CGN) or they will be closed and funds seized, including the
deposit.

Regards,
Betcoin Security

I am a citizen of Montenegro. I used betcoin from Montenegro without any VPN and i have only one account.

I do know OP here. He is Jimin Jibao from blogabet, i follow him there. He is the best tipster on that platform and has 9415 subscribers.

He did recommend betcoin.ag to me, when i asked him where is it possible to follow his bets.

I dont use bitcoins in my life so i dont have any of them. He did owe me some money so i asked him to help me with deposit. As i have no wallet to store bitcoins i gave him address from betcoin.ag itself.

0.1 appeared on my balance and we calculated the equivalent money (about 1k euro) into our mutual balance with the OP

I took many bets in the account, some bets i followed from Jimin Jibao of course

Again, i used betcoin.ag website without any VPN usually from my mobile always in Montenegro.

Thats why when they sent to me this email it looked very funny. I have checked their rules and Montenegro was ok for them. I only could not use some casino games. It was fine by me..

After my account was blocked and i couldnt login anymore, i emailed support. They sent me only one email, lying about what i did. I sent them many more emails but they didnt answer.

I contacted Jimin Jibao, because he recommended them and he told me he had the same account closing and he will be fighting them in some forum. Told me to wait.

I was waiting for reply emails from betcoin but they never came. Jimin Jibao told me that its better to make claim with SBR, that betcoin told him themselves. But they never told me, they just ignore me.

I made the claim already of course and also decided to write in this forum.

Why did betcoin lie to me. Ok, they can accuse me of anything they want of course, but they say i used their website from banned region. But Montenegro is not banned !!!

It is a lie.

All they say is lie. I dont multi account, i bet from Montenegro, not banned region

I deposited around 1k euro and had balance about 4, 5, 6, i dont remember. And now money is gone.

Betcoin.ag is SCAM !!!

I could not agree more than this statement. Hhamphuz is a cheap manipulating abusing useron the forum, which gainst status beccause he accept a lot of money to defend casino and sport sites.
He is really pathetic, and his IQ won't be much higher than his current trust count.

What I don't understand is why Betcoin thinks it can get rid of this so easily. They are obliged to return the money. We shouldn't take Hhamphuz's opinion too seriously, who was bribed by Betcoin.ag and is a first-class scammer himself. He defends every sportsbook if he gets paid for it. Sad. All you could do is contact the license committee.

I did contact the license committee, but i really have no hope for this route.

BUT, rest assured, do not worry. They WILL NOT get rid of this easily.

After all, the name of Jimin Jibao in the betting community is worth much more than the name betcoin.ag

Among my 10k + subscribers i have many many friends and, thankfully, some of them understand in website development.

I hope to get a page about betcoin.ag SCAM up on my website soon and direct traffic of my followers there.

Lets see what SBR says, for now NOBODY contacted me about anything ...

betcoin.AG back to its lying past.
lying, stealing, cheating, scamming.
Thats what they do. New management fairytale will be told many times more, but in reality nothing has changed. Scammers they are.
Thanks God, thanks to Blogabet community, many many more people will see it."

betcoin.ag did have very shady reputation from the past, with many reports of different scams they ran. Recently, i was thinking, that they are changing.
but this situation, and an apparent attempt, by the company to deny the very principles that the crypto world wants to be built on, proves to me that nothing has changed.

I will, certainly, be advising  all my friends and fellow cryptominded people to stay away from betcoin.ag sportsbook and casino, unless they show that they can be fair in this situation. For now, all i see is another scam attempt.

That's a very poor analogy, bordering on irresponsible. Consider this analogy instead: "A landlord (Betcoin) believes that someone broke the posted rules of the apartment complex they manage, and know that the culprit had a grey Honda Civic with license plate XYZ (the bitcoin address) playing Wu-Tang (his bet choices). When Jimin Jibao pulls up to the apartment complex in the same vehicle playing Ghostface's Fishscale album, the landlord takes away Jimin's keys (account access). Jimin still has furniture and personal effects in his apartment, but does not know their value (current account balance)."

Based on that:

1) Can you see the difference in implied knowledge between your analogy (You watch it happening) and what Betcoin has publicly admitted (We know that Jimin and KILLYMNE used the same address and made similar bets)?
 
2) In the apartment analogy, do you believe that the landlord should refuse to answer any questions from a tenant whose property they currently hold? Can you see how the phrasing choice of "a murder" might be emotionally loaded in a way that "a property dispute" isn't?

You might find this nitpicky, but for someone representing Betcoin even marginally, you need to. Any professional relationship with them - especially a monetary one - means you should be holding yourself to a higher standard than regular posters to avoid any perception of dishonesty. In this case, I think you failed, champ.

Thanks, champ!

I said that I would give an extreme example to prove the point, you are misrepresenting it on several levels.

Betcoin claims that tools in their arsenal detected several cases of abuse by this user and took action thereafter. They then offered to involve a mediator to release any and all necessary information which the user is, for whatever reason, refusing to do?

And I'm not representing Betcoin, I'm representing myself. I'm a person, and a forum user/contributor. What I do for work has nothing to do with what my opinion is.

It's always the same thing though, someone comes to this forum with remarkable claims of how they've been scammed and cheated by an active service (sometimes active for years), and the usual response by the community is to jump down the throat of the service and give the user in question right all the way. When/if it is later found out that the user was manipulating the evidence, straight out lying and abusing this service they just run away scot free. Usually they have posted this from a throw-away account so it doesn't matter at all to them what happens afterwards. The service on the other hand may have had their reputation destroyed on this forum for years as some people are super stubborn and believe what they want to believe and overall that is detrimental to the entire ecosystem of services wanting to be here.

It's tiring but more importantly it is saddening. From my own experience most of these claims against gambling sites are proven to be wrong and the user is proven to be an abuser.

Bring in the mediator, I don't see the issue with that?

Excuse me, what exactly am i refusing to do?
Bring in the mediator? i did already, some time ago, even though the betcoin representative, as well as their email support, did not answer my numerous questions about the actual balance my account, which in terms led me to submit the SBR claim without the complete information.

And one other thing. You can find it in the other person's (owner of the other account) post - betcoin.ag NEVER offered to involve any kind of mediator for him. His emails and questions were just ignored, after he was told that the account is closed and the money is gone.

You seem like a reasonable person. You are not a bookie.
Please, explain to me exactly, how did i abuse them?

I deposited 1.8 BTC and withdrew 0.1 BTC

What exactly is my abuse here?

You are asking for me to just blindly believe you, that wouldn't be very reasonable when there is another side to the story which claims something completely different.

So what is the status with the mediator? I doubt they'd disregard the case if you wrote 0.7btc instead of 0.8btc.

I am not asking you to believe me. The deposits of 1.8 BTC and total withdrawals of 0.1 BTC were confirmed by the betcoin.ag representative earlier in this thread.

I dont know about the status. My requested was submitted 3 days ago, but i have not heard anything back yet. As you can judge from my original post, i prefer to give the complete information from start (thats what i did here), so when submitting such an important thing as claim (the money in question is not small by any means) i always prefer to give all the required and complete information. I have asked the betcoin representative from the start about my balance (for obvious reasons i cant possible know exactly what it is), but he just decided to completely ignore my questions.

anyways, thank you. You are almost the only person, who is replying me, even though you from the start "are against me". But seeing how the betcoin.ag representative simply ignores me, i really do appreciate you talking to me ;)

So, please (since you already started answering to me), answer this to me:

Who exactly did i "murder" (as in your analogy) ?

For me, at least, it looks i murdered somebody close to me (lost big money)  :o

I understand your point, I'm a fellow gambler myself, if the casino's are not replying then probably the next course of action is to go for a mediation and see how it goes.

So probably after the mediation, if it's in your favour then its' worth the wait isn't it?


So how does the mediation?, it will be interesting as to what side SBR will take and so that finally we will know who is telling the truth or not.

Or perhaps SBR is talking to long to deliberate as this case is really hard to decide?

I have of course submitted the SBR claim, even though the betcoin.ag representative did everything to delay it, by not releasing the information required to submit that claim.

I am waiting. I even waited today not to put up the scam page about betcoin.ag on my website. I even refrained from actively pushing this story to my 10+ thousand of subscribers. I am waiting.

What i would really love to see... is some respect. I am not convicted yet. I didnt murder anybody and i didnt made any damage to them. Actually for now, i made them a nice profit - deposited 1.8 BTC, while withdrawing only 0.1 BTC

but YET AGAIN ... i am treated like a convicted felon on a death row here

Please, you have far more people in this thread calling betcoin bad than the opposite, evident hy the fact my opinion and input is disregarded as bias.

And just to clarify, once more, I said that it was an extreme example to prove the point. I never called you a murderer, an example means that you take something different from the current situation to prove a point.

I'll be waiting for the results from the mediator.

My fault. Let me rephrase my question.

And please, please answer it.

What exactly did i abuse in this situation?

I've already answered it. Betcoin claims that you've abused their site. I don't know the details on their behalf or on your behalf, which is why I'll be waiting for what the mediator will say since betcoin said they would share all information with them.

You are asking me to blindly believe you when you claim to not have abused their site.

I mean to actually abuse, you have to have some benefit from it, correct?

But all the benefit is theirs - the 1.7 BTC from my pocket

Not true at all. If they have undeniable proof that you have abused their site under several accounts and a long time which has resulted in you either taking out a lot of money or made them lose a lot of money it would change everything.

I don't know the story, you would obviously never admit to any wrongdoing so this discussion is pointless and this is my last reply.

I'll be looking forward to what the mediator will rule and what information will be made public.

Not true. I DID admit breaking their rules actually. It is in their terms and conditions, that you cant use VPN to access their website. I did admit that in the very beginning. Too bad you also accuse me of things, that are not true.

As for the rest. The other closed account, they are lying is mine was less than a week old.

So there is NO ABUSE here. Even if they combine the two accounts together (which is just ridiculous, as we are two different people in two different countries), combine all the balances, all the deposits, pay everything out, THEY STILL MAKE PROFIT.

Where is the abuse there?

This will never never happen, unless they forge something up.

I think even the betcoin.ag representative will tell you that THIS IS NOT THE CASE.

If you ask him direct here, he will answer you. He will not answer me, obviously.

It is clearly stated in Betcoin's TOS that only one account per player is allowed. Casinos may still refund the player's deposit [less service charges] at their sole discretion and out of goodwill but I don't know a case where losses are returned after violation of the terms. Gamblers are expected to read it in the first place so the risk is on their part.  

A couple quick points of clarification...

We certainly did not delay his reporting the the mediator. We asked him to file a claim the first day this occurred. A week, and many forum posts later, he finally claimed that he filed the report. He says he does not know the amount, but there is an amount in the title of this thread. We told him we would provide all wager and balance details to the mediator, but "around 1 BTC" is certainly enough to get things started.

We still don't even know if the claim was filed, as we have not heard back from SBR. If it was, we will reply to them immediately with our proofs. In case "they don't reply", we welcome this player to file third party mediation with any other independent review panel. Some others that we are aware of are Casino.Guru and ThePogg.com. But he is welcome to pick his own, as long as they are legitimate. We will respond to 100 of these, if necessary, because the proof is so substantial that there is 0 chance we will lose.

Additionally, he says we only replied to one of the other account's emails. In the case of obvious multi-accounting, we don't feel a need to reply to every account individually. What he failed to mention, however is that when we did reply to the other player's email with what was posted:
"Hello, your account was permanently closed per our policies regarding fraud and multi-accounting..."

The other player's response was:
"Understand... so when i can expect withdraw?"

Not, "I deny these accusations"
But "Understand."

Is this alone enough to prove multi-accounting? Of course not.

More to come..

this is exactly what i wanted to ask. i am reading what op wrote now though. i will post my full review about this

Yes, all your proofs are like this.
circumstantial as they say in court

You deliberately were delaying giving me the full and correct information.

I can start a thread with an approximate number, but filling a complaint i would much rather give an exact number, which you STILL failed to provide. What are you afraid of, that you dont want to specify exactly the balance of my account?

You are the scammers here and its becoming more and more obvious to everybody.
As i said, i filed the claim 3 days ago, after stupidly waiting for your reply.

Looks like (as it looks like SBR doesnt care either) you will keep my money (and maybe the money of the person in Montenegro, although you have absolutely no right to do that), BUT REST ASSURED (and please mark my words here), many many thousands of people will know how unfair you treat your clients (both winning and loosing)

https://i.gyazo.com/ad926d8a7c34d3b424cb8baa5e65d4d3.png

its all about how you feel, isnt it?

ITS A DIFFERENT PERSON IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY, its your client, you took money from him. You are obliged to answer his questions about his money and his account

You act like SCAMMERS, and scammers you are.
Lets see what comes out of this ... lets see

i have read page after page word to word. and it is obvious betcoin is actually trying to scam this guy. first you are not suppose to allow a player you do not want to play deposit. once he deposits, u should either ban his account ior refund his cash with a message of dont come back.
you allowed him deposit several times and huge amounts and u where happy when he was busting it all. immediately he won something tangible u came up with these lame and dumb accusations.
if you suspect a player location is against your rules, u should ask him for his id to confirm.
from what your behavior u are not even ready to verify if he is from a banned country. u are just moving on with assumptions.
by law, if a player plays from a banned country, u are suppose to return the cash to the players country govt. not to take it for clubbing.
i also noticed that he asked you for the info he needs to file the complain and u dont want to give him that info.
now tell me, how is he expected to file a complain without the full info. i will post more about this but let me stop here for now. i will make sure  i alert all the gambling community of this so we see how this ends.
i have experienced this before. busted a tone and they site said nothing, immediately i won big , they said i was cheating. do u guy expect to be winning always?
i checked ur profile and saw that you have had similar issues like this before. this makes me believe that this is done on purpose.
Hhampuz sounds like someone paid to trash talk here. i will be expecting to see more ass lickers like hm on this thread.
betcoin or what ever your site name is, pay the guy his money. he is not even winning. i am thinking he won big in the bets u cancelled that is why u cancelled and banned him.

This is poor and consensually immoral reasoning to confiscate such a large balance from one of your users. The nit picky stuff is mostly redundant - you have no good reason to continue to refrain from returning the word balance. If you continue to do so, I would at least recommend a proper justification be given.

How nice to see all of the negative trust/recently woken up accounts joining in here. Definitely no abuse going on, OP is a saint.

lol, my friend. I, from the very beginning, stated that i feel being scammed here and i will use all the resources i have (the website, the 10+ thousand subscribers) to fight this injustice.

Yes i have posted links to this discussion in a couple of Telegrams groups that i have, but it is really just a beginning.

I will for sure try to my to notify my subscribers and general betting community about the shady practices this betcoin.ag likes.

As i said before, my name is certainly worth more right now in the betting/tipster communities, then betcoin.ag

So lets see who wins, who looses from this  ;)

you must be referring to me. the negatives u saw where from NLNico who happens to be dean aka betking support aka scammer. go check threads of how he scammed people of millions of dollars. i can bet you where also one of those licking his ass when he was here scamming people and i was exposing him.
the way u have been following this thread and the way you have been sounding. i can bet my balls that you are either paid to type trash or you are betcoin alt.
it is only a paid user or an alt that will support a site that refuses to disclose the detail needed to file a claim.
when it comes to identity, all a site needs to do is ask for kyc. u supporting this rubbish they are doing only tells me u are paid or an alt.

Define abuse. Negative trust is simply the opinion of a "trusted" member towards my account - it is not indicative of an abusive member in any way shape or form. Sarcastically calling OP a saint because some of the members, who just happen to have negative trust, and who also, by chance, happen to have made an argument that defends the OP is in my opinion an indication of some incredibly vapid and feeble analytical abilities.

the guy is a distraction. he is doing what he was paid for oe what an alt will do. i will advice hi to go check my post when it comes to scam. i do not back down. i will follow this thread till the end because this is a clear case of a site trying to scam a player of his earnings

i have some questions for you:
1. You are accusing this user of abuse by multiaccounting, can you please state what damage exactly was done to betcoin.ag in monetary terms. Has the user, and his multiaccounts, cause betcoin.ag to loose money?
2. The fact, that two or more accounts were partly funded by transactions coming from the same btc wallet address proves that the accounts in question are abusers and scammers?  So it is not allowed to fund different accounts in betcoin.ag from the same btc wallet?
3. Are all the bets placed in the accounts in question exactly the same?
4. What is the current balance of the OP's account? He claims it to be around 1 btc, is that true?
5. Is there other account mentioned in this thread,  the one you linked to the OP? If so, is there anything else to link them together apart from same btc wallet and similar/same bets?
I would really appreciate you answering these questions, as this would clear a lot of uncertainties in this interesting case. This would help the community to understand it better.
Thank you and take care.

I am casually passing through; I have not reviewed any evidence in this case, and also have not read the Betcoin.AG TOS.  I hereby express no opinion about the case, either way.  I just have a little suggestion for preventing and handling these types of issues in the future.


Yes.  Not naming names, so as to avoid dragging in an unrelated controversy—I recall earlier this year, a major site had a scam accusation for closing the multi-accounts of someone who had abused their sports-bet incentives.  Since they returned his remaining deposits and presented clear evidence of abuse, his scam accusation pretty much just came off as stupid whining.


Suggestion:  Have your lawyers consider adding a liquidated damages clause to your TOS, specifying a reasonable amount that multi-account abusers agree up-front that they will pay based on your cost of catching them, the amortized estimated risk of your business losses if you don’t catch them, etc.  Specify in TOS that this amount may be deducted from the balances of accounts caught in breach of TOS.  Then, deduct that amount from the balances of accounts closed for multi-accounting (merging past and future balances, in case a persistent multi-accounter racks up a big unpaid abuse-handling fee); and return the remaining balances, if any.

This makes it clear that you aren’t just grabbing arbitrary amounts of money.

For comparison, I have seen e-mail services (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3180215.0) that specify in their TOS a liquidated damages amount of around $100–150 per spam sent using their services.  That is based on their abuse-desk staffing costs, reputational damage and the effort of repairing their reputations, etc.  Of course, the difference there is that they usually cannot collect...

N.b. that in the jurisdictions with which I am familiar, liquidated damages cannot be a punishment or a penalty.  If multi-accounting presents a business risk to you, and your security team needs to spend hours of work time catching and documenting multi-accounts, then you may have a sound basis for a liquidated damages clause—ask your lawyer, which I am not.

In this case, if you did not have a liquidated damages clause, then perhaps you may point out to the mediator (if any) the costs to you of catching the abuse you allege, the potential business risk as aforesaid, and the cost of dealing with scam accusations on the forum.  Depending on what that adds up to, if your evidence is solid, then the fair resolution should be obvious.

---

I myself would prefer to design services so that they cannot be damaged by multi-accounters—then let people create as many accounts as they want.  For example, provably fair games of chance, with no incentives that could be abused by multi-accounting.  But of course, gamblers at some types of games will want the kinds of play (and even incentives) that are ripe for abuse.  If you offer such things as people want, then I guess you do need reasonable and appropriate TOS to prevent abuse...  Good luck.

Thank you, and these are important questions to ask. We have done our best to be as transparent as possible throughout this thread, and although some things we cannot share, we should be able to answer most of these for you.

Multi-accounting damages Betcoin and all sportsbook financially on a daily basis. This is why every single casino/sportsbook has a rule against it. There are many ways this can happen from abusing promos and bonuses, to circumventing betting limits, using banned technology (bots) to place bets and more. Exploiting casinos and sportsbooks is a full time job for many, and the reason we banned this player's region 2 years ago was because the volume of fraud exceeded the volume of legitimate players, considerably. That is not to say that he is abusive because of where he is from, however the pattern of creating multiple accounts to violate other TOS is the same. Based on this player's activity, we do believe he is a professional, winning player and the fact that he created 2 accounts certainly lends itself to the fact that he would create others. The problem in these situations is that the abusive players keep coming back, thinking they will be anonymous. We still have people who were banned 2 years ago who come back on a monthly basis. This is part of the reason we don't discuss these publicly, as the more people who are aware of how to exploit sportsbooks, the more will do it.

We spend many Bitcoin each year on fraud prevention technology and every time the abusers discover what we have, they come up with new ways around them. As mentioned earlier in this thread, we have banned approximately 500 abusive accounts this year. Through cooperation with some of these accounts, we have gained access to several Discord and Telegram groups with thousands of members, which specifically teach players how to cheat sites, including different methods of exploitation, how to make your region undetectable and how to fake your KYC documents. We learn a lot from these cheats, and just like them, we adapt our security as well.

He suggested that his account was banned because of the same bets and same Bitcoin wallet. Obviously, this does raise red flags, but it is just a part of a greater body of evidence that we have on these 2 players. As this player knows well and stated in the title of this thread, his account balance was about 1 BTC. He is playing dumb, but if you read through his posts, it's apparent he knows exactly what he is doing here. The bets aren't exactly the same, as 1 of the accounts was only active for 2 days, however the ones that are the same aren't UEFA Champions league, like he suggested.
They are bets on very low tier matches where these 2 accounts accounted for 90%+ of the money on the entire match. And he will say that they shared information. Just like they shared a Bitcoin wallet and share the OP. But these little deceptions show that he is skewing the information in his favor. Just like he said we never replied to the other account's emails when in fact we did and the other account did not deny it.

So now it is "2 players" ?
LOL, i thought you were claiming i was the ONLY GUY here multiaccounting from 2 accounts TO ABUSE your system.

Yet again, you failed to explain what exactly i abused ... because the answer is NOTHING.

And yes, it was 2 players. 2 different players in two different countries.

So you admit that you dont like 2 different players have the same bets on low level matches ... this is the REAL reason here !!!

I never suggested i bet Champions League, i just used it as an example to explain, that it is just normal for different people to bet the same bets.

In my text i explained about some of the same bets we took.

Some other bets, which may have been the same, OF COURSE can be easily explained also.

 I am a professional tipster. You can check my publicly recorderd (recorded not by me) stats for 3 years. I have 53% yield on over 3100 bets.
you can see it on https://jj1ba0.blogabet.com/ , that is exactly why i have over 10000 subscribers

everytime i post a pick (bet) they get notifications and right away try to bet the same. If i post a basketball handicap bet, in a matter of minutes that handicap will be changed by 2-5 points in almost all the online bookies in the world, FOR EXAMPLE

so if i told my followers this or that was a good bet, all of them would want to stake that bet. And its normal and not against ANY RULES.

the rest, you are just trying to imagine. Just like your imaginative "evidence"  ;)

but its good, that you changed your wording to "2 players" already, which means you are on the correct track.

YOU JUST KEEP LYING !!! (or like in last post, your start to change your fake story  ;D)

below i post a screenshot taken from my original post here, were i acknowledged that betcoin has replied to the other player only once, and THEN started ignoring him

https://i.gyazo.com/b615140f8496931a5ef6fc1782f3c2f5.png

We look forward to having the opportunity share the enormous amount of evidence of fraud we have with any and all third party mediators. One would think that would be the best use of time for a legitimate player, rather than arguing in a forum, since if he is found legitimate, then he gets money. But he already knows the what the result will be.

my time is not of your concern.

As i promised you in the beginning, i will not let it go. For now, you accused me of scam and you taken action - blocked my BTC, so i think it is only fair for me also to take action, as i feel i am the one being scammed by you here.

So taking action i will. I will make sure that as many people as possible will know about your scamming practices. What is interesting is why you worry about it and my spending time doing it. If you are not scamming me, you have nothing to worry about  ;)

I read it as a polite way of saying, “Put up or shut up.”

—Or, “put your mouth where your money is.”  Which isn’t here, per the highlighted portion.

If you have a legitimate reason for avoiding third-party mediation, then that would be interesting.  Do you?


That kind of a threat would be much more meaningful if you went through all that mediation stuff—and then Betcoin.AG refused to return the money, after a neutral third party found that Betcoin.AG lacked sufficient evidence of your alleged multi-accounting breach of TOS.

Oh, wait—what didn’t happen, now did it?

To be clear, I am neutral here.  I have no financial interest in Betcoin.AG, or anybody else here; I don’t know anything about Betcoin.AG.  I just don’t think that it is looking very good for you here, to promise to make lots of noise on the Internet when you have already been offered a productive means of resolving the matter.  Indeed, it sounds to me more like a promise to wage a smear campaign.  “ ;) ”

please read this thread again, i filed the claim 3 days ago with incomplete information (had to use the word "about"), as betcoin.ag just refused to tell me the exact balance of my account (when it was closed i had many 3-5 matches combos pending).

In one of my posts i have included a screenshot of the SBR's claim email confirmation ...

I saw that.  So, why not pull back for a little while, let the mediator find in your favour (since you’re so innocent—Betcoin.AG is just lying about you, with zero evidence that you were multi-accounting), and then blast the hell out of Betcoin.AG for refusing to return the money to you as promised (which you must be sure they will do, since you are accusing them of scamming and stealing from you)?

It will impress everybody.  Everybody will hate Betcoin.AG, and you will come out looking like a hero—right?

To be clear, in the manner of a devil’s advocate (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5277804.msg55491731#post_satan), I am simply providing strategic advice about how I would annihilate Betcoin.AG’s reputation—if they really did to me what you allege they did to you. “ ;) ”

Yes, indeed, it would be the correct path of actions.

Unfortunately i am a too emotionally driven person to act rationally in situations like this.
I just cant stand when others lie about me.

I know i did nothing wrong, apart from the things (and that included breaking the TOS, like using VPN) that i have admitted to in the very first post i made. And this thing just drives me crazy. As you can see i cant let even a single post go, i have to answer and straighten things up.

If you are neutral, please, please, ask the betcoin representative this (he is obviously just ignoring all the questions i ask) :

he says these two accounts bets were not the same obviously, because that account was only 3 days old and mine i had for months, but points out some market where these accounts accumulated almost all the bets.

Please ask him if apart from those matches, the bets on these accounts were exactly the same?

I know its not true. My account was loosing considerable money, and the other account was in profit ;)

Well, I can certainly understand that.  Though what got me sucked into this thread was a bit too much emotion from people arguing both for and against Betcoin.AG; it is not helping to get to the truth of the matter.

Now, you’re a betting man, right?  So, let’s put it this way:

I have never done sportsbook, other than my current epic charity bet with theymos (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284654.0) over the U.S. election cockfight.  I’m not particularly inclined to bet on the outcome here.  If I want to gamble, I will typically do either pure games of chance—or poker.

I don’t know you—and I don’t know Betcoin.AG.  I am looking from the outside here.  And it looks to me like somebody is bluffing.

If you’ve got the high cards—that is to say, if Betcoin.AG’s got a hand full of nothing to show the mediator—then it’s a bad play for you to be making all the forum noise now.  That’s why I said, pull back a bit—be cool, up the ante—and then, go nuclear on them if (a) the mediator finds in your favour, and (b) Betcoin.AG refuses to abide by mediation as publicly promised.  There’s your ace!  ;)

<snip>


I’m just a spectator here.  Calling it as I see it.

If I were to pose to Betcoin.AG the questions that you ask, then I would probably also need to ask Betcoin.AG to share with me whatever confidential security information they have said that they will show a neutral mediator.  Even if they would (and I am not saying they would!), I do not desire to become so deeply involved here.


Post #5 on Page 1 of this thread:

Oh, also:


Post #9 on Page 1 of this thread:

I think that the mediator really needs to have a look at this.  I will not pretend to know what happened here.

---

Question for zikzik, in fairness:  Betcoin.AG has publicly promised to abide by the results of the mediation.  Do you, too?

1. I dont play cards, i only do sports betting
2. I have submitted the claim 3 days ago and have not heard anything back yet. Not a word apart from the automated acknowledgement email. So for now i am only watching from the side while my bitcoin is running away ...

i cant really use multi quoting on this forum, i will go one by one ...

those posts you quoted about the same bets ... later in this thread the representative finally acknowledges that they didnt like us betting on some low level game, were we together had like 100% of the market there ...
Please understand that apart from this, and the same bitcoin address they dont have anything... like nothing...
we are physically two different people in two different countries, that YES, discussed bets. As i stated before, if i tip a game, people follow me blindly with their money ...

The thing is, the representative just keeps pushing general phrases, without a single notch of evidence, covering it all with some nonsense how they need to protect their state of the art security system (which didnt work while i was depositing my bitcoin for weeks).

He just simply ignores ANY request for some exact information. Hell, he even still did not provide anybody with the exact balance of my account. Can that somehow put their security protocols in scrutiny ?

He just keeps lying (i pointed out his recent lie with a screenshot to prove) and manipulating facts.

To answer your last question:

Question for zikzik, in fairness:  Betcoin.AG has publicly promised to abide by the results of the mediation.  Do you, too?


Well, i have nothing to abide the decision with... they have my bitcoin, not the other way around.

But, yes, i understand that my account did break the VPN rule from the very start, so legally they can just confiscate all my balance. I expect them to do it, just coz they can ...

But the fact that they claim that i have created multiple accounts i will never never never accept. Because it is one HUGE LIE.

The other thing i will never accept is their claim that i have abused their system.

I lost 1.7 btc there, there was no abuse. I lost it betting on their platform.

The representative cant even explain what exactly i did abuse. Like what is the whole point of this multiaccounting abuse, they claim ... why i did it? what was the purpose?

They would never explain that. All they can do is go into some general thoughts about their security, their history with abusive players (which won big money there i presume). But for me, they will never tell anybody. Because they have nothing to tell ...

betcoin is typing trash. you are with someones 1 bitcoin and u still have the guts to come type trash here. i cant even believe this is happening. i dont even know why guys go to useless sites like these when there are far more reputable sites around.
all what they explained here is just trash. this is not enough reason to steal someones 14,000 USD just like that. this is fucking 14,000 usd we are talking about here man. like seriously? THS IS HIS DEPOSIT, NOT WINNING. WTF

To the guy talking of result of the mediation. that is total rubbish. betcoin looses nothing weather the case turns out positive or not. the player still looses irrespective of the outcome. lets stop supporting rubbish. they allowed him deposit severally and said nothing when he lost. when he deposited big and was recovering little, they closed his account.

this shit is pissing me off so fucking bad.

If so, it sounds like your current complaint is that mediation is slow.  Though it has only been three days.

Anyone here who has experience with these mediation processes (which I do not), how long does it usually take?  Assuming that the mediator has not yet responded, I think that there is probably a reasonable timeframe to zikzik to wax impatient; I doubt that the timeframe is three days.

Quoting fixed:

I meant with regard to this:


The purpose of mediation is supposed to be to resolve these issues—either way.

---

I am guessing that it goes something along the lines of advice to the effect that, “If somebody is publicly accusing you of stealing money from him, and demanding that you specify the exact amount that he claims you stole, then STFU and don’t do discovery on a public forum.”

That said, I would think that this kind of information would need to be disclosed through any kind of a reasonable mediation process; and I do not see a reason why it should be kept confidential there.


It sounds to me like by your own theory, they should have welcomed you to keep your account!  #justsaying

---

I hope that the mediator responds soon, and that the dispute will be resolved in an appropriate manner.

For my part, I don’t see a need for me to rehash this more.  Except for one thing:

Dicey Justice

Quote from: zikzik on October 31, 2020, 10:33:05 PM

1. I dont play cards, i only do sports betting

Well, what about dice?

Once upon a time (Sixteenth Century, IIRC), there was a suggestion that all disputes should be resolved by throwing dice.  Because real-world, government-run courts packed with lawyers have a dismal track record of resolving cases with justice less frequently than would be obtained by random chance.  It is true...

Sorry, I don’t recall off the top of my head what witty wag made that suggestion; I should look it up, but I am feeling lazy at this particular moment.

i cant believe u still have not returned the players money

We have already responded to this, both in this thread and the one you posted. We have caught this player using multiple accounts to abuse the Betcoin.ag TOS and asked that if he disputes this to file 3rd party mediation. We will abide by the mediator's decision in full. Thank you for your interest.

You keep lying (other members can check some of my previous posts in this thread where i prove with screenshots how betcoin.ag representative is lying to deceive the public) and manipulating the facts. You even changing the terms you use in this thread - in the beginning you used 1 person, multiaccounting, 2 accounts... but later you already used "2 players".

Once again i state that we are TWO DIFFERENT HUMAN BEINGS IN TWO DIFFERENT COUNTRIES, and YOU KNOW IT !!!

It is too easy to say that a broker has access to all information, and the player in question does not. That is very unusual. A player has every right to know what he has done wrong, and is also entitled to all evidence. You do not have to make that evidence public, but send it to zikzik via email for example.

I have filed a claim 4 days ago and apart from an automated response acknowledgement of the claim recipience, i  have not heard a word from them ...

betcoin.ag will not tell here (or to me privately) what was done wrong because of two big reasons:

1. In the very first post here i have already stated and admitted to what i have done wrong.
2. Nothing else was done wrong and they simply cant have any other evidence.

Now, the representative may come back here and even reply to you. But he will use some general sentences about how they spend many bitcoins on their state of the art security systems and they dont want to give out sensitive information here, so others cant abuse it. Its all a cover up.

They always talk about some abuse, but never ever really explained what was this abuse about exactly ...

There was no abuse at all. My account was in BIG minus, and the other account had not made any withdrawals.

They stated that the two of use have betted some low market games, where we accumulated almost 100% of total bets on the platform. But they would never tell you (or anybody else for that matter) for how much (in percent for example) those bets accounted in terms of the whole turnover on the account...

I can tell you... for example i maybe have betted and won around 0.02-0.03 btc on some low level beach volleyball game, and the next day (or same day) loose 0.3-0.4 btc on Vietnamese basketball game (also a very low level market).

They would never tell the BitcoinTalk community ANY DETAILS of my "abusive" betting (even if i gave them the permission to disclose my information about it), because if they did, most members of the community would immediately understand the manipulation and scamming they are running in this situation ...

What you are suggesting is that we give lessons to a cheater on how to not get caught next time. What is your specific issue with having one or more 3rd party mediators review the evidence and make an impartial decision based on it?

We have reached out to SBR to see if they will be taking this case and also suggested several other routes the player can take to receive mediation. Thank you.

There are 4 negative trusts with your account. they did not out fall out of the sky, betcoin. this situation is certainly not going to make that any better. I also think your reason is nonsense about cheating. if someone has done something wrong, you can claim it but you also have to provide proof. isn't he entitled to that? if I stand in court and am charged, I also get all the evidence from the judge or the public prosecutor. then they do not say "this information is only available to the courts or the public prosecutor". you are 100% entitled to the documents and information, and that is also the case in this case.

betcoin probably only does this now so that any burden of proof is not there at all and then there is nothing to show. typical case of scam as I see it now
stop with your fairytale and give the user proof what he has done wrong

I do not see why SBR must be involved in this matter actually. It is much better to settle it directly with the customer. And besides that, how can we know that everything goes fair?
SBR is not a lawyer firm or something.

"What you have just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard read. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room thread is now dumber for having listened read it."

-Slightly modified quote from James Downey as the principal in Billy Madison (1995).

We think the matter has already been resolved appropriately. He disagrees. This is why it cannot be settled with the player. A 3rd party mediator will determine the best course of further action. SBR is the authority in these matters, however we have agreed to respond to this dispute and accept the result from any impartial body.

I usually don't get involved in controversial issues such as these, since it may seem like I am taking sides, but I would like to add my perspective on this.

Enforcing a player to resort to legal action is a really, really easy way to scare away existing and potential players. Having your BTC locked up by a 3rd party is most bitcoiners worst nighmare - especially on exchanges. Although Betcoin has some reasoning as well as legal rights to keep the player's Bitcoin, it is not only unprofessional, but unnecessary and incredibly damaging to the casino's already diminished reputation. Casino's survive on reputation and holding up a mere 1 BTC is doing 10 fold of damage.

Like I said, I don't like to pick sides, but this thread has taken off and as a result I see it illogical to damage your casino's reputation permanently for such an insignificant amount of BTC. You may be just fine legally , but in the grand scheme of things that really doesn't matter to anyone besides the OP and sheds bad light.

LOL, LOL, wait

Are you calling stealing my btc - "resolved appropriately" ?

As we said, we know that this is the difficult way to go about things for us. However it is also important that we discourage both this player and other dishonest players from coming to Betcoin, coming to other online casinos or cheating in general. This is not a new thing or something unique to Betcoin. Every online casino and sportsbook bans fraudulent players every day. The only thing noteworthy about this case is the attention it has received.  

Using a proxy does not mean that we cannot see where you are playing from. Literally 10 minutes ago, we dealt with another player who was playing from a banned region. We asked him where he was from and he originally lied. We then told him that we know he is playing from a banned region and he admitted it and will receive his full account balance. Had he continued lying, it would have shown malicious intent. Instead, he admitted having lied about his location and in our opinion, that was not enough to withhold his balance.

The OP has not only played from a banned region, but created multiple accounts to abuse the tight limits that we have on low tiered matches.  This is fraud and will not be tolerated. We want the community to know this. We also think that the vast majority of players, who are honest, know that if they play legitimately, they will receive their winnings in a timely manner and won't have to go through legal action. We pay out tens of thousands of legitimate players each week, many who receive much larger amounts than this player. As you said, this amount of BTC is nominal. What is important is the message we are sending that we will not tolerate abusive players. This player knows exactly what he has done and is playing the role of someone who is naive. He chose to sign up from a banned region and chose to cheat the site, knowing what was at risk. We have solid proof if this. If SBR doesn't think the proof is solid, they will rule against us and we will comply.

abuse the tight limits on low tiered matches to loose 1.8 btc ?


please, this information that i ask you next is not at all connected to your security. I ask you to provide the list of the bets i took, so the community can see what exactly happened. Please, provide a list of all the bets i took. Lets see how exactly i abused your "tight limits".

These are the bets i took. I know them. Please provide this information there. I authorize you to disclose this my personal info. It can do you no harm, right ?

PS. I am citizen of a EU country not listed as banned in your TOS. I have only ever used a single personal account on your site.

This thread should be a warning to all players.

Do not trust this site. The way they handle this situation is ridiculous.
And now they say we wait what sbr says. How the fuck is that the problem of the OP?
Show the bets he played. Tell him what is account balance is!!

You dont show ANYTHING.

They dont show any proof and seize money from an account that is already down well over 1btc.

What a scam.

I'm going to quote one part of what you said - it does not make the rest of what you said invalid, I just thought I should pay special attention to it:


Why exactly does lying escalate the issue and case into something that deems the balance un-returnable? It makes perfect sense to lie in that case. If I'm a suspect for a crime and I am asked to confess, without me knowing if the other party has proof, of course I will lie. Any logical person would. It has nothing to do with ethics, I can guarantee the vast majority of even "good" people would lie and say that they did nothing wrong. It only makes sense.

Regardless of what the suspect here did, I think it's unfair that lying about such a thing is a deciding factor. I see this response almost as "we're making a public statement by withholding this user's funds" - which to me, is unreasonable because it shows impartial favor to other cheaters who had their funds returned. I hear about major criminal cases often where the suspect is subject to an insane verdict for the sole reason of deterrence to scare the public away from doing the crime that the suspect committed. Stomping on someone's well-being from a position of power in order to make a public statement is frowned upon because it is a direct abuse of power.

I'll make an assumption here and assume that most of the cheaters that you encounter on Betcoin will not see this thread and be encouraged to cheat should they see you return this user's funds, nor will any cheaters on your website be encouraged not to cheat. It is a poor way to make a public statement.

You misunderstood the analogy. We are comparing the intent of a player who simply wanted to enjoy Betcoin and made a mistake with the intent of a player who has been caught lying multiple times and continues to do so. His funds are being withheld because of fraud.


That is not a good assumption, from our experience. As we have stated, we still have players from 2.5 years ago when we banned this person's region who return back monthly, attempting to defraud the site. We have gained access to Discord and Telegram groups with thousands of members where the entire purpose is discussing new ways to defraud sportsbooks. We see the reactions in these groups when players start getting banned and it usually dies down for a while. However, as any member of the Bitcoin community should know, cheaters will continue trying to cheat. This is their life's work. It only takes a few times not getting caught and they are good for the year.

NAME ONE LIE, that i have said here. ONE LIE and PROVE IT !!!

I think that that is what I was getting at - you are withholding this user's funds, not because purely of fraud, but because it helps you to reduce future incidents of cheating. This is deterrence, and it is not a good reason to withhold funds.

...

However that is merely opinion that it is not good. It will likely reduce the number of cheaters, but it carries heavy consequences such as damaging your reputation permanently.

We do thank you for your feedback and we understand your point, of course. As mentioned, this is not a Betcoin thing, but a policy of every online casino and sportsbook in cases of extreme abuse, such as this. Additionally, by encouraging 3rd party mediation, we have left this in the hands of the industry experts, who will make the final decision here.
We don't think this will affect our reputation with legitimate players and we truly believe that once this is resolved, we will be stronger than ever.

Why dont you answer what OP is asking your for?

Show the bets in question, tell him about the account balance.

All you do is dodge questions and give useless replies like its not your problem anymore. I guess there will never be a reply from sbr as the mostly dont.
I hope your reputation takes a dive. Your feedback here says it all, especially the "Untrusted feedback" . Countless complaints.

i think betcoin knows exactly what he is doing. he knows those people will never respond or even if they do, they will side the casino. there should be other ways to resolve ths other than those people. ask these guy to prove his location in the most complex way available. this shitt right here is pure scam. the most annoying part is them playing victim

I think I have to agree that some shady things are going on. What Betcoin.ag is telling the customer, does not make any sense. The fact that they do not know even which countries are allowed to play, is already a red flag in my onion. However, they should solve this with the customer. SBR as mediator is really not needed. It is like they are the judge who decides what needs to be done. A very strange decision.
Their argument that they do not want to display the information the customer is also ridiculous. He has the right to know the information.
For me, Betcoin.ag is hiding things now. Play open card and hand the information over to the user. If he is wrong, proof it with evidence. If not, then we can only assume you are trying to steal the funds.
Easy as that.

The only way for this statement to be true within its four corners is with some rather sophisticated browser fingerprinting/tracking.^*

With that, it is very true.

* Or with browser geolocation APIs; but those are permissioned (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Geolocation_API), and I would presume that anyone trying to hide his location would not grant permission for that.

I mention this not to help any miscreants, but rather, to point out that privacy (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284102.0) on the Web (and otherwise!) is practically nonexistent (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2527738.msg25852987#msg25852987).  Yes, every website that you visit can know who you are, where you are, and what you have been doing—if they really want to.  Mostly, this is used for ad profiling, corporate data mining, and mass surveillance.

It can be avoided.  Successfully avoiding it with a VPN or proxy requires considerable expertise.  Tor Browser has some of that expertise built into its design and implementation (https://2019.www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser/design/); but Tor is slow, Tor Browser breaks on many sites, and there are still some potential holes that can only be (more or less) mitigated by disabling Javascript.

Now, if anybody was wondering why I complain about Javascript (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3001981.msg30868325#msg30868325), and about most of the Web being completely useless to me nowadays, here is one good reason...

Every which way, if you’re trying to get away with something, webs and webs and webs are not very helpful.

---

It is one reason why I tend to think that Betcoin.AG probably has something solid to show the mediator.  There are so very many ways that they could have the evidence that they claim to have; and the types of people who do multi-accounting to cheat on sportsbet site rules are unlikely to be technical experts in privacy and security.

Anyway, the mediator will need to take a look at whatever it is.

To be clear, the foregoing is not a Betcoin-specific issue.  If you do not want to use websites that may track you, then you need to more or less STOP USING THE WEB altogether.  And if you carry a mobile phone, then you are a total idiot.

the mediator betcoin is talking about is a trick. they know sbr will never respond to that email or even if they will, it will take months, buy then the player must have forgotten about it.
this is a smart scam

I love it when idiots are able to point out what's smart and what's not. Good for you bud, keep it up!

Who is sufficiently rich to forget about an alleged amount of “around 1 BTC”?  You, maybe?  ::)

In my opinion it is not in itself a strange idea to engage a mediator. Then in a fair way; that is to say, then the player also has the right to see all the evidence here. It's his own account, so he has the right for this.
The reason they provide now that they do not want to give the information because they are afraid he will cheat again is not a common and valuable argument.
If he did something wrong, and you can proof this, then it is easily to close the case and then Betcoin is absolutely in his right.

There is no point in doing this, are you even reading what you are writing before you hit "Post"? I mean honestly, I know most of you have a grudge against gambling sites and that's the only reason you are posting here but try and apply some logic and think before you post.

There is no point in proving that i did something wrong?

Man... they have my bitcoin, they have the bitcoin of the other guy, they made accusations, they took the bitcoin... and all this without ANY PROOF

As has been previously mentioned in this thread all you have to do is let the mediator sort this out and if you have done nothing wrong they will rule in your favor and Betcoin has vowed to send you all the BTC you feel you are owed. Why is that so hard? Why are you insisting that they post it all in this thread? What good will come of that? They believe that you have cheated them, posting the proof in this thread will change nothing.. Clearly you must understand this?

I think it’s clear that both parties to this dispute can agree:  A prompt disposition of the mediation request would be in everybody’s best interest.

---

inb4 Hhampuz pre-empting me while I was obtaining the quotes from yesterday.

I think it is especially difficult to confirm that it is a mediator and not someone from an official organization. So they could be biased in this case.

Besides, what's wrong with providing evidence if you accuse someone of cheating? Is the most normal thing in the world.

This has nothing to do with hating, but it seems like you're the one who doesn't read or understand the situation, Hhampuz

They don't have to post the proof in this thread at all, but they can also email it privately to the player. They don't and that's a bad thing.

I already wondered why you are reacting so aggressively and defending Betcoin, but since you are their campaign leader, that explains a lot.
You are not objective and are purely subjective to defend Betcoin. You run many campaigns, and that is the reason why you always defend your Casinos.
https://i.imgur.com/uJCZd23.jpg

posting in this thread will change nothing indeed I agree other people do not have to know the reasons what is going on but the user here should know what he did and now he says he is innocent and betcoin claims he is guilty so betcoin can send the evidence or information to the player
if i get caught by the cops then they will also tell me what i did wrong and give me an explanation before they put me in jail

they even refuse to tell me the exact balance of my account at the time of closing ...

this really tells about their TRUE intentions ...

I'm not saying they should agree with the money, but the least they can do is give you information. And that doesn't have to be shared here on the forum at all.
They are not obliged to do so. I find it really bizarre how Betcoin.AG deals with this situation. I've really never read this that a player is accused and then no evidence is presented at all.
I would just ignore Hhamphuz's opinion, because he is their campaign manager and will never fail them. His message can not be taken to serious. There are plenty of people who agree with you.
Only we can do little for you, the only thing you can do is keep posting and managing so that they hopefully resolve this with you.

what about other casinos or betting sites what do they think about this? then its easier to compare what the most reliable solution will be

I was already wondering why you were posting at all in this thread.. then I saw that you were promoting Betnomi - a competing casino. You are not objective at all, you are purely subjective to defame Betcoin while bringing your own employer up in the ranks. Shame on you.

---

Not at all, actually not at all. If they believe that the user has 100% done them wrong while the user in this case is claiming innocence and on top of that threatening to use his influence to make sure this never goes away and betcoin has to pay for it in the end one way or another, what's the point? Do you think if Betcoin sends the evidence to this user that:
A) He is going to look it at and say - Oh yeah you are right, I actually did commit fraud and made it so that you lost a bunch of BTC. Sorry, I'll remove the thread now.
B) He is going to look at it and say - I see nothing wrong with this, let me just go and post this everywhere now so that everyone is aware of your tools and ways to find and eliminate abusive accounts.

There is no point in doing it from Betcoins side of things. they have offered to send all evidence to a 3rd party who will either support or dismiss the evidence and they vow to pay the user if the mediator will dismiss it.

---

On a separate note I find it baffling that so many of you have such a lack of faith in neutral 3rd party mediators. It is absolutely beyond me, with this lack of trust, why you'd ever set your foot inside a crypto gambling site.

I find it curious that you are leaping to dismiss Hhampuz ad hominem, when at least on this page, besides blowing off RichGang and BTCGOLD, his only substantive argument what I also said:  Let’s see what the neutral third-party mediator says.

(I also find it curious that you both (BTCGOLD (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=64724), codegnome (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust;u=81910)) have credible-looking trust-page accusations of defending scams—though I can’t be bothered to look further now; maybe later.)

---

I have no financial interest in anyone here.  And I am not here because of Hhampuz, either; this thread came to my attention due to someone else.  I just think that it makes sense to see what a neutral third-party mediator says after reviewing the evidence.  None of the people flame-warring here has suggested any reason to do otherwise.  And although I know that an OP in a non-self-moderated thread cannot necessarily control the behaviour of others, it looks pretty bad when a bunch of accounts make a mud-slinging brigade with rapid-fire repeats of stuff that has already been said.

Does everybody who is following this thread really need to wade through so many pointless posts, whilst awaiting further developments?  You know, trying to attract attention that way can backfire.

I seriously wonder whether you understand how legislation and society work. Just like in criminal law, every suspect has rights. And those rights therefore also consist of proof.
Keep Betnomi out, that has nothing to do with this. If I have committed an offense and am to be convicted for it, I will ALWAYS see all the charges they have against me. Then it is not said of no you will not see any evidence that only goes to an intermediate party and that decides. Yes, the intermediate party can indeed decide, but always by notifying the suspect and also by making known all the burden of proof that lies there. That's the whole point this is about. It's not about me saying Betcoin is right, it's about refusing to cooperate in any way and that shouldn't be possible. They do not release any information to the user, while it is his own account.

Excuse me. Why are you doing this?

I have many times stated (and betcoin.ag confirmed my deposit/withdrawal history) that i ACTUALLY LOST money while betting with them.

Deposited 1.8 btc, withdrawn 0.1 btc, current balance ABOUT 1 btc

EVEN if they add the account of that other person (which i have absolutely no relation to)
deposited 0.1 btc, withdrawn 0, current balance about 0.5 btc i think he said ...

SO PLEASE, stop telling wrong information. Betcoin.ag HAVE NOT LOST ANY MONEY from my betting (EVEN if they UNJUSTLY connect the account of that other guy to me)

you can say anything you like about me - its your right. But PLEASE dont post wrong information.

At the moment, Betcoin is getting a bad name and its reputation is being damaged. What could be easier than publishing the evidence? You do not have to enter specific IP addresses or personal details.

They can tell the user to email the evidence to them and ask them if they are okay with posting it on the forum due to privacy rights. And maybe he will post that on his own.

Then the damage is still manageable and the image is polished. If Betcoin is really convinced that the user has committed fraud, then I really don't understand why they don't come up with evidence.

 Little effort. That story about third party ... well, I don't really know what to think about it.

If you let a lawyer and judge look at it now, it makes sense. But SBR as an assessor? No sorry, that's too easy. Especially if the user does not receive any information.

No need for that. I have repeatedly asked (and authorized) betcoin.ag to show ANY proof in this thread. They just refuse ...

They also refuse even to tell me the exact balance of my account, when they closed it.

Now lets assume the mediator finds me not guilty, now betcoin.ag has to give me my Bitcoin back.

But they didnt confirm the exact amount anywhere, so they can give me just any number, and it doesnt have to be the real one... because they just refuse to tell me that number beforehand !!!

Betcoin rather pays trash like Hhampuz to defend them rather than actually show proof here.
I mean its proven that he is working for them.

Thats what scam sites do.

Oh no, do you mean to tell me that a public campaign with a public spreadsheet and weekly payouts is something that's going on here, at bitcointalk? Damn, this changes everything..

Yeah keep defending them u biased joke.

MAASDAMER IS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT
I can confirm that Hhamphuz is being bribed by a number of gambling sites to defend their reputation. Hhamphuz is abusing its DT user status. I'm also pretty sure his trusts have been bought. Hhamphuz is a disgrace to the forum and is a manipulator and a first class pancake.
Duelbits is also a big scam gang, as is Betcoin.ag. I dismantled them in their topic, but Hhamphuz didn't like that much and then I got a negative trust from him.
Is it possible to make an accusation against Hhamphuz to make sure he will lose his DT leverl? People like him, do not belong in the DT list, since they abuse this system.

Impressive how many clowns can fit in one car, although not too surprising.

Having been involved with abuse-handling work in the past, I know that sometimes, that can be tantamount to writing an instruction manual on “How To NOT GET CAUGHT Next Time”.  What Betcoin themselves said on Page 1 is reasonable, on that particular point.

Post #9, on Page 1 of 8 thus far... did you read the thread at all!?

On the other hand, if Betcoin.AG is really doing what I suspect that they must be doing (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55502885#msg55502885), then you would need to be a genuine security expert to evade their multi-accounting detection with no mistakes, ever.

---

Edit:  I originally hit the post button in the wrong tab, trying to quote Betcoin.AG from Page 1.  Whoops.  Here is the actual post.

The biggest clown is a manager from Betcoin and is getting paid to defend them. And is also abusing the trust system.
Since you decided to give me negative trust, I will promise you that you will not get away with this and I am going to fight for it that you will be pushed away from the DT level, since you abuse the system.
Besides that, about the betcoin.ag site. They just look like to steal the money here, nothing has to be sent about it. If it is fraud, return the deposits to him.
But dont return to much, otherweise you can not pay hhamphuz anymore to defend your scam site.


Looks like Nullius is now also hired to defend Betcoin.ag
Time to give hem a neg trust?

is there a security reason for them not to exactly specify the balance of my account (if there is a chance that mediator will find me not guilty and i should get my btc back) ?

is there a security reason for them not to release the list of bets that i took at this account, to prove that i was abusing their limits, as they say? I mean i took those bets, i already know them ... i lost BIG on them, so i kinda remember them ;)

why dont they just release them to the public and show my "abusive behavior" ?

I will tell you why - because they made a mistake about this situation.

There is nothing in the world they can show that can prove that the two accounts in question belong to me.

Thats why they claim the betting pattern as ONE of the indicators i was abusing, but they will NOT SHOW it here stating security reason, which is ONE BIG BS, as IF the accounts in question are both mine, than i would know all the bets in both of them ...

IT JUST DOESNT ADD UP, and THEY KNOW IT  ;)


PS. Guys, please, its really easy to attack each other. But thats not the point here. All of this is done on purpose by the casino... they create these fights... they make accusations and dont show a single piece of proof. They say they dont want to teach abusers, but what is there to teach if i ask them to show MY FRIKING BETS, and they dont do it... dont be mad at each other please. Everybody is just doing their job here. Some are paid to defend the casino (like the representative here obviously), some do it to defend themselves from the casino scamming (like me obviously) and some just cant put up with the injustice they see ...

It's funny how you went from crying for not being accepted in my campaigns:



To displaying your complete lack of knowledge about this forum:



Then you question why someone would create an account to confirm a large withdraw, while in this current thread you are just on board with it since it goes the other way:



You have, over several posts, showed your complete lack of knowledge in any of these matters. I have to ask, are you off your meds?

---

You should message theymos and show my abuse of the trust system, maybe he'll remove me from DT :)

Their point is not reasonable. Not even close to reasonable. They just used this "Argument" as reason since now they claim they do not have to display any information towards you.
We will all know how this will end. SBR will tell it is fraud and that they can take your funds and keep it. The truth is actually, that they can NEVER take your funds.
Reagrding to the gaming commission, they are forced to give you the deposit back.
Of course they are going to say now that they are forced to hold the deposits, for investigation. This is not true. They must give the deposit back.
If I were you, I would find a lawyer and take them to court. The gambling commission is more strict since this year, so they will act harder if they see a website is messing around.
Spoken about fraud: Their terms are fraud since their allowed countries are not correct. Make screenshots of that and write an email to their gambling license issuer.
If you do not have their contact details, I have. I do not need any money for this, I just want justice and sites like Betcoin.ag must be stopped.

I think that’s a more reasonable question.  Anyone from Betcoin.AG want to address that?  I can only presume this; I don’t know why they have not provided that information:


Same as for this:


<snip>


I don’t know if you are guilty or not.  I know that if you are, your VPN was not protecting you as you thought it was (LOL).  Based on my own security expertise, I would not assume that they can have no evidence (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55502885#msg55502885).

Yes, I am confident that I myself could avoid any multi-account detection.  No, I will not tell the fine folks here how to do it.  If you try, you will probably get screwed—tough luck.

If you are innocent, then I expect that Betcoin.AG will probably fall flat on their faces at mediation; and they have already promised to return your remaining deposits if the mediator says to, so...

---

Separately, I am curious about what Betcoin.AG thinks of my liquidated damages (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55492551#msg55492551) idea; though if they took it seriously, I would understand if it just shows up in revised TOS sometime.  Lawyers usually advise their clients not to discuss legal decisions in public.

I don’t like the idea of just keeping all deposits, without regard to proportionality; though if there is real evidence of fraud, I would not necessarily call that a scam, either.  I would assess that point on a case-by-case basis, if I were in the mediator’s position (which I am not).  Whereas liquidated damages would reasonably deter repeat abuse as a secondary effect, as a practical matter—in addition to the primary purpose of covering abuse-handling costs and business risk from abuse.

---

Weird, this sudden pile-on about Hhampuz.  Why don’t the people making this about Hhampuz create a hundred new Reputation (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=129.0) threads about how Hhampuz is pure evil, and meanwhile address what I said in an intelligent manner—or wait for the evidence to be reviewed by a neutral third-party mediator before opining.

What is this thread about?

---

Edit:  Qualified “return your deposits” to “return your remaining deposits”—just to be precise, although I think that my intended meaning was clear in the first instance.

Please people,
if some well respected member can ask the betcoin.ag these absolutely normal and rational questions:

1. What was the EXACT balance of my account at the time of closing?
2. Please show a list of the bets i took (all the bets please) which will "of course" prove that i was abusing your system.

I AUTHORIZE betcoin.ag to disclose all of the above mentioned personal information here in public ...

Please somebody from this well respected community ask the casino these questions. There is NO WAY this info can scrutinize their security protocols (as i, THE ALLEGED ABUSER, have taken these bets anyways, so i know them... nothing new for me to learn from this info).

As for the balance... well, i think it is reasonable if betcoin.ag really going to comply with the mediator, that as there is a chance i will be deemed innocent, the btc would need to be returned, so its only FAIR to specify the amount BEFORE the verdict of the mediator, and not after like betcoin.ag is trying to do. I feel they may be planning another scam here - return much less money than the actual balance, as they have never confirmed the exact amount.

Green-text-on-red-background fixed to make this legible:

I already did:

---

I think that that’s a sort of canard by omission.  Are you purporting that that can be the only evidence of your abuse?

---

Another problem:


The question as stated only makes sense if it includes information for all of the accounts that Betcoin.AG alleges are yours; otherwise, the picture presented is incomplete and unfair to Betcoin.AG.  But you deny that the other accounts are yours!  How can you authorize Betcoin.AG to disclose in public “personal information” about accounts that you claim are not yours?


OK.


There may be other reasons for them to be reluctant to answer any of your questions, given your approach.  I do suggest that they should clear this up, at least:  A statement of the balances for the accounts in question, at the time of the accounts being closed for alleged fraud.  If they have sound reason for not disclosing that publicly, then I suggest that they should say so, rather than ignoring the question.

Betcoin.ag has stated himself here that this one of the "abusive patterns" they have caught, even mentioned a low level game where the two accounts in question accounted for all of the market.
So obviously they say its a strong argument. I have absolutely nothing against them showing it to the public.
I cant speak for the other person of course, but i will talk to him tomorrow and ask him to acknowledge his approval also.

Listen, i am 95% sure that they will not show the bets here, because their security system made a huge mistake ;)

They see two people betting the same game, maybe even some more games, and they think they have a JackPot.

Yet again i want to emphasize to them - i have over 10000 subscribers, who will bet whatever bet i post with their eyes closed. They trust in me (although recently i have been on a very very bad run, hence the big big minus in betcoin.ag account) and the lower level the game  is, the better it is. I have publicly recorded (not by me) stats over 3 years and 3100+ bets to prove that.

The other "evidence" they have is the same bitcoin wallet address in deposit to my account, and account of the other guy. But is that against the rules? Does it prove anything?

Nah ...

they will not post anything here. Please, guys from betcoin.ag, prove me wrong. Post the bets i took ;)

From some of their posts on this thread (including, but not limited to some that I have quoted), I took it as implied that Betcoin.AG must have some other forensic evidence connecting the accounts and identifying your region.

I strongly urge that the mediator should request this evidence from Betcoin.AG, and should NOT show it to you.  If the evidence does not exist, of course, then the mediator should determine that, too; and in any event, all available evidence should be weighed fairly as to both sides of the dispute.

<snip>


It is probative.  Indeed, I think that that in itself rises to the level of probable cause to believe that the accounts are connected, regardless of any other evidence.

So, you admit and stipulate to the wallet evidence?  I have heard so many excuses about that type of evidence, from people who were guilty and caught dead to rights!  In the real world, it is possible but improbable that “the same bitcoin wallet address” would “deposit to [your] account, and account of the other guy”, if the “other guy” is not actually you.  And if the “other guy” is alleged by you to be some unrelated person in another country from amongst a large crowd following your bets, it is highly improbable.  It requires a clear, sensible explanation.  (I can imagine some unusual scenarios in which this could occur; but for obvious reasons, I will not suggest any.)

I think that the mediator should weigh the preponderance of the evidence, which is a higher standard—but that is just my opinion.

---

Edit:  Minor clarification about the two issues of alleged multi-accounting and alleged banned region.  Still being picky.

---

Edited further to add...

---

A message to cheaters:

It is easy to get away with malicious and abusive behaviour on naïve sites.  —Not easy on sites that are serious about catching you.

I know of open-source code that can do at least some part of what Betcoin.AG claims their security system can do.  It’s not a drop-in solution; it may require expensive consultant work to integrate into a site.  I am also aware that there exist proprietary commercial systems that can catch you red-handed, if you try to multi-account from a banned region from behind a VPN.  These are the same types of systems also used by banks, large cryptocurrency exchanges, and other financial institutions; the systems are expensive, and (unfortunately, in my opinion) quite commonplace in the industry.  On non-gambling sites, you are being invisibly checked by such systems every day.

I am not saying that that’s what happened here.  I am saying that it is a major issue that the mediator should inquire about.  If my inferences are incorrect, then the outcome may or may not be unfavourable to Betcoin.AG, depending on the total weight of all the other evidence.

Moreover, I am warning cheaters that you will get caught—sometime, sooner or later, at some site—and it will hurt!  Evading detection requires serious skills.  People with serious skills usually apply them to activities more productive than multi-account abuse on gambling sites.

i am sorry, but this statement just proves that you did not read the original post in this forum.
I think it is very very unfair that you are making assumptions based what betcoin.ag lied in this thread, without even giving the "defendant" here a FAIR chance to defend himself (at least listen to what he had to say about the whole situation)

this makes me sad  :o

I did read it.  Though I admit that I skimmed (what was) the middle of the thread (when I first found it); therefore, I just went back and reviewed all of your posts again, from your (exceedingly long) OP forward—reviewed them twice, from start to finish.  This is what I found with regard to the above-stated issue:

OP:

Post #17 on Page 1:

(By the way, no:  Bitcoin is not anonymous (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2527738.msg25814830#msg25814830), as I have been telling people since I was at Newbie rank on this forum (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2527738.msg25825717#msg25825717).  Much though I dislike it (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2527738.msg25852987#msg25852987), that is the reality.)

From my experience with investigations, your story sounds like it is probably a lie.  Probably.  It could be true.  That is why in the part that you snipped, I said that the wallet evidence is “probable cause”:

Don’t take that too personally.  I don’t know you personally.  You must understand, many people do lie about these things—so, that is what it sounds like.

I have seen alleged multi-accounters lie about wallet evidence many times.  Thus far, I have seen one of these stories turn out to be true, exactly once—and yes, I felt bad for that person.  You would be the second one.  But I doubt that you will be, when it sounds like the wallet evidence is the least of your problems here.

Now, I must ask:  Why do you pretend that the wallet evidence is nothing?  Even if your unusual story is true, it still looks suspicious, does it not?  Please look at it from the perspective of someone who is trying to catch cheaters—someone who has been lied to by many cheaters!  I think that that way, you will be more successful in communicating your position.  (And thus is my attempt to mediate the dispute, even though I am not the mediator.)

Quote from: zikzik on November 03, 2020, 01:12:28 AM

I think it is very very unfair that you are making assumptions based what betcoin.ag lied in this thread, without even giving the "defendant" here a FAIR chance to defend himself (at least listen to what he had to say about the whole situation)

this makes me sad  :o

Your such calumny is NOT “FAIR” to me, given how evenly I have treated both sides—even with suggestions for Betcoin.AG to improve their handling of these matters, which they may or may not appreciate.  I have tried to be constructive.  And I should advise you, attempting to play on my emotions will not work.  I am notoriously hard-hearted; I care only about the truth (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5221041.0), not about feelings.

---

zikzik, I observe that you have pointedly ignored my inference about what other evidence Betcoin.AG seems to be claiming to have.  If my inference is correct, I do not want to see that evidence myself; being granted access would impose on me a responsibility that I am unwilling to take, given that I am only a bystander who stumbled into this thread by happenstance.  It is why I keep saying that the mediator needs to take a look at it, and why I have been suggesting in bold letters what types of questions the mediator should ask.  I think that that is very fair to you, and also fair to Betcoin.AG.

If you are innocent, I wish you good luck and a fair mediation so that you can get your money back.  But if you are guilty, rot in hell!  I don’t like cheaters.  I am quite serious about this:

Quote from: nullius on November 02, 2020, 11:46:05 PM

---

Edited further to add...

---

A message to cheaters:

It is easy to get away with malicious and abusive behaviour on naïve sites.  —Not easy on sites that are serious about catching you.

I know of open-source code that can do at least some part of what Betcoin.AG claims their security system can do.  It’s not a drop-in solution; it may require expensive consultant work to integrate into a site.  I am also aware that there exist proprietary commercial systems that can catch you red-handed, if you try to multi-account from a banned region from behind a VPN.  These are the same types of systems also used by banks, large cryptocurrency exchanges, and other financial institutions; the systems are expensive, and (unfortunately, in my opinion) quite commonplace in the industry.  On non-gambling sites, you are being invisibly checked by such systems every day.

I am not saying that that’s what happened here.  I am saying that it is a major issue that the mediator should inquire about.  If my inferences are incorrect, then the outcome may or may not be unfavourable to Betcoin.AG, depending on the total weight of all the other evidence.

Moreover, I am warning cheaters that you will get caught—sometime, sooner or later, at some site—and it will hurt!  Evading detection requires serious skills.  People with serious skills usually apply them to activities more productive than multi-account abuse on gambling sites.

---

Now, besides this...

Quote from: nullius on November 02, 2020, 10:08:25 PM

Quote from: zikzik on November 02, 2020, 09:46:54 PM

is there a security reason for them not to exactly specify the balance of my account (if there is a chance that mediator will find me not guilty and i should get my btc back) ?

I think that’s a more reasonable question.  Anyone from Betcoin.AG want to address that?

Quote from: nullius on November 02, 2020, 10:52:07 PM

There may be other reasons for them to be reluctant to answer any of your questions, given your approach.  I do suggest that they should clear this up, at least:  A statement of the balances for the accounts in question, at the time of the accounts being closed for alleged fraud.  If they have sound reason for not disclosing that publicly, then I suggest that they should say so, rather than ignoring the question.

...is there anything else to discuss in this thread, pending mediation?  I think that SBR should step up and contact the parties, when both sides reasonably want for that to happen ASAP!

Quote from: nullius on November 02, 2020, 02:01:23 PM

I think it’s clear that both parties to this dispute can agree:  A prompt disposition of the mediation request would be in everybody’s best interest.

Quote from: Betcoin.AG on November 01, 2020, 02:46:49 PM

We have reached out to SBR to see if they will be taking this case and also suggested several other routes the player can take to receive mediation. Thank you.

Quote from: zikzik on November 01, 2020, 02:34:39 PM

I have filed a claim 4 days ago and apart from an automated response acknowledgement of the claim recipience, i  have not heard a word from them ...

---

Edit:  Minor bugfixes; added some anchor tags.

i am baffled to see someone with living braincells come here to support betcoin for a scam like this. these guys allowed the player to play when he was loosing, and even allowed him withdraw a little amount without saying anything because they know that there was possibility for him to loose more. immediately he tried withdrawing an amount they felt was reasonable,, they closed his account and stole his btc.
if you guys do not allow a player from a particular region to play, you should not even allow him access the site to begin with.
check this screenshot from primedice. they clearly tell me not to proceed https://prnt.sc/vcavpm
besides, when these type of money is seized, it is returned to the persons country. the cash is not yours, you have no right to keep it.
lastly, sbr will almost not respond to this case. betcoin knows that and he is just acting like he knows nothing about this. i bet you he has done this to a couple of players and it worked.
this time i will make sure your ass is busted. like i said, i wll follow this thread till the end. op is a little naive about these things, i can see it from the way he puts out his points to u. u betcoin knows that and u are taking avantage of him. we as a community wont allow that.
the paid guys supporting this  scam are wasting their time.
you are denting your image reputation. i know scammers like u dont give a fuck when an amount like 1btc is involved. but even if you end up scamming this player, i will make sure your image is dented to the fullest. go check how i handled betking scammed. he will never be trusted in the bitcoin world again.
casino scammers piss me off

Stopped reading here as you obviously didn't event read anything the OP has stated...

i too authorize betcoin casino to write this information about my account here

I am still surprised that Betcoin refuses to not send any evidence to the player. They are apparently convinced of cheating, well if that is really the case then they have no problem transferring the evidence to the respective player. Nonsense story from Nullius by the way. Typical reaction from someone who is partial and very clearly sides with Betcoin. I just wonder why. I do have an idea, but it seems more sensible not to comment on it.
Why do I have the feeling that Hhamphuz and Nullius are defending Betcoin.ag here and they have interest in this case?

Hello, just an update. We have been contacted by the mediator and will provide them with the details within 24 hours.

that is exactly what happened man. i have read every page of this case. stop supporting scammers except if you are paid to do so

Why not provide the proof instantly? Why does the player have to wait forever for you to finally move your ass?
Lets see if this is for real and the player was also contacted by the mediator.

And still no reply about his questions. Very scammy!!

now we have authorizations from both account holders, can anybody from the well respected community ask the betcoin representative to provide the bet lists? there surely cant be any viable reason no to do it. I mean, if we (the account holders) are cheaters and abusers, we already know these bets anyways, as we took them, so what wrong can come out of disclosing here both account's bet lists.

Would also be a positive sign to the BitCoinTalk community that the casino is not making anything up ...

They just said they received the request from the mediator, they also said they'd respond with all information within 24 hours.. why are you pushing it now? Seems odd.

https://i.imgur.com/GaLrhMp.png

One other account of zikzak found?

How interesting.. You were fast at deleting that post but not quite fast enough, sorry.

lol, now you started imagining things  ;D

if it was my alt:

If i hit reply on my own quote, WHY WOULD I write "im not the OP here"

its obviously just a mistake by that user, thats why he deleted it

There were waiting for mediator for a week they said, and now they need 24 whole hours to submit the evidence?

and how is it connected to my absolutely logical requests to state my exact balance and list all of my bets here (as well as the request of the other account's holder to list his bets also)? I know my bets perfectly, i just want the open public to see them (as the casino says i was abusing their system). I seriously doubt, that my bets are the same as on that other account.

Within 24 hours means exactly 24 hours? Do you think betcoin is a 1man operation sitting here just waiting and with all information readily to send out?  ::)

We have just submitted our 6 page, 2100 word report with 27 screenshots to the mediator.  They have many cases to rule on and this one has an enormous amount of information, so we ask for your patience while this is resolved. It is also possible they will need some additional information from either us or the OP prior to making a ruling. We will update the community with the results. Thank you.

how much where you paid to do this trash?

LOL.
This paid guy is so much fun.
I thought you addressed me with the post before and then I saw you meant some other guy.

Another 10$ earned for your post huh?

By some other guy, you mean the OP?

What about handing over this document to the relevant player. You are really a joke whit this nonsense information. In any case, you have to pay him the money back, thief.

he is lucky i am not the one he scammed. i will have spammed your thread with info about your scam every few hours. and spam all forums till everyone is aware that you are a thief

That is a good idea actually. We have to make sure people are warned so they can not make anymore victims.

Quoted for reference to both of your admissions that what you cannot achieve with the meritorious arguments that you lack, you attempt by abusive flooding of this forum (and others!) with noise, and bumping the hell out of this thread even when you don’t have anything new to say.

Spam, hereby narrowly construed as shouting essentially the same thing over and over again ad maximam nauseam, should be deleted by the moderators.  That is a service to both parties to the dispute, insofar as fair-minded third parties need to be able to read the substantive posts on the thread without wading through spam.  Spam on this thread has already wasted a ridiculous amount of my time, and that of others.

---

u are obviously paid to support scammers.  you do not deserve a place in this forum. i never wasted my time to read your post because u kept spamming the thread with lengthy rubbish

nullius sounds like someone really paid to spam trash in the forum. yes i support the above poster.
betcoin is scam. that is it

If the OP is a cheater, how did he cheat the website? Can betcoin.ag and his supporters answer this? I'm interested in playing on the website but I am worried now.

Hello Guys,



Just wondering how this whole bookie scam ended ? Is there any work done by SBR the mediator with them looking into this and making a NON biased decision?

I guess the community should be kept in the loop on how this all plays out especially as this thread is clearly being followed by alot of valued Bitcointalk Users.


My own fears are that if SBR does not use a FAIR judgement in this case against a such respected basketball tipster from Blogabet, what chance does any of us have if any bookie in the future decides to hold onto funds for whatever reason?


Maybe the OP can update us on the mediation process, what actually goes on and what he is being asked to PROVIDE by SBR to make their non biased decision?


Hope to hear from somebody soon on this as it seems everybody has vanished :)

Unfortunately i dont have any update.
As of now, i have not been asked anything ...

I am also afraid that you will not get positive messages. If you hear about it, it will be that the so-called fraud has been established and that they are entitled to collect your money. Don't fall for this nonsense, you have a 100% right to get your money back at all times.

its a scam and betcion knows so well how to play the scam. betcoin knows that the mediators will likely not respond or even if they do will rule it in favor of them. i bet you they have done this severally and it worked for them so they are just replaying the scam on you. dont back down. dont let the paid supporters of betcoin bully u to back down. betcoin cant keep stealing peoples cash like this.

These absolute negative IQ takes are hurting my brain in more ways than one... Sigh.

sorry, i thought my English was pretty decent, but after reading your message 5 times, i still cant figure out what it means ...

i am new to the forum, can you guys please explain to me, what does this "merited" thing mean?

https://i.gyazo.com/e5a64a41d74a6dd661d2ab5ce72619d2.png

thanks

it's means either Hhampuz agreed with the post was made by Betcoin.Ag nor Hhampuz think that post was helpful/worthy, so he gave "merit" to that post. It's just like "+1 or liked post"

Alas, I have found my time better spent elsewhere than on keeping up with the spam on this thread. :-/

I did intend to take another action about that, and may still do so; but again, who has the time?

However, I am watching it for news about the mediation; and to avoid the potential that new users may be misled, I should address what on its face appears to be a classic “Newbie” question. :-)

---

This original intent of the merit system is best explained in the words of the forum’s administrator, theymos (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=35):


The sending of merit is an independent action, which can neither be caused nor stopped by the recipient of the merit.  Well, it is that way for honest users.  Begging for merit is highly improper, as is trading merit.  I myself would issue negative trust feedback for that, although I know that some DT members may disagree with me.

Parenthetically (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4850225.msg55564118#msg55564118), I may draw your attention to the list of all-time top-merited users (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;stats=topusersat) (login is required to see this page).  High earning of merit is NOT necessarily an indicator of trustworthiness; however, it is a demonstration that a forum member has made many posts that were respected by other people.  I myself am currently #27 on the list; alas, I have slid since I took a 20-month break from the forum in 2018–20...  By coincidence, HHampuz is now at #20 on the same list.  Watch out, HHampuz, if I decide to un-retire myself!  ;-)  There is also a third-party site unaffiliated with the forum’s administration, BPIP (https://bpip.org/), which tracks some data publicly (no login required); see e.g., my BPIP profile page (https://bpip.org/Profile?p=nullius), a full list of all merit that I have ever received (https://bpip.org/smerit.aspx?to=nullius), and a list of merit that I have sent to others (https://bpip.org/smerit.aspx?from=nullius).  —If you want a system to track trustworthiness, you want to look into the trust system, for what it’s worth.  Look in the Meta forum (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=24.0) for information.

If you have any further questions about the merit system, I suggest asking them on the topic about merit (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.0) in the Meta forum (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=24.0).

---

P.S., zikzik, I have a reputation around here.  Anybody who has followed my activity, knows that the accusation that I am being paid on this thread is preposterous—just made up on the spot, without even a scintilla of evidence.

I sincerely advise you to ask those idiots to stop it.  If I were the OP of a scam accusation thread, I would not want such “supporters”; for their wild false accusations would unfairly tend to discredit me in the eyes of others, with guilt by association.  Any longtime user of this forum will see what RichGang et al. are saying about me, and respond:  “LOLWUT!?”  That is not good for you!

I did not even join this forum to make money legitimately, let alone dishonestly to sell my soul shilling for chump change.  FYI, I have never even enrolled in a paid signature advertising campaign, or taken other paid bounties of any kind.  I did once decline a 0.02 BTC/week flat-rate private offer for my signature, from a reasonably reputable gambling site (who is not a party to this thread), who guaranteed not to interfere with my freedom of speech; I almost regret turning that down—almost.  I publicly offered to join the ChipMixer campaign (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1935179.msg55394691#msg55394691), as a sort of a political statement in favour of privacy; but it didn’t wind up happening.  The grand total amount of money that I have ever made on this forum is negligible.  If I lose my 0.01 BTC charity bet with theymos (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284654.0) on the outcome of the 2020 U.S. presidential election, then my all-time total income from this forum will be a net negative!

Seriously:  nullius is being paid here!?  LOL.

---

Preview page inb4 janggernaut:  “nullius posts” take too long to write!

i have just updated my thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5285526.0) with this screenshot

https://i.gyazo.com/83ce99031eaece466dd9c0e597a4c671.png

i made sbr report on October 26 and since that day i have not heard a word


Do you guys feel this is a normal situation?

It sad that you made that losses but we the bitcointalk community could not help i your situation but only to discuss matter with you and get the attention of the forum representative for Betcoin.ag for you to resolve your issues or discuss with. In my part, I do believe that there is just a miscommunication between both parties and that could be resolved. If not then I guess you need to move o  OP and find a better platform instead. Do not forget to read the Terms and Agreement of the platform you will be joining.

this is a scam betcoin runs and they are pretty good at it.  you are not the first and u wont be the last  they will scam. they know sbr will probably not respond and if they do they will  side the scammers.

N.b.:



So, it seems that Betcoin.AG’s allegation is that you tried to rip them off for 0.6 BTC with an unfair play scheme in violation of TOS, and they turned the tables to punch you in the face for ≈1 BTC.

If their proof of multi-accounting is sufficient, then I think that would be fair and proportionate.  —If.  It all hinges on the technical evidence (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5285526.msg55570184#post_mobile_ip), in my opinion.

---

Important text enlarged:

sorry nullius, i dont want to seem rude, and i really have no right to, but ...

this is not the first time you somehow dont read everything and then make your bold assumptions and "on paper" also accusing me of some wrongdoings ...

The account from Montenegro would not cover the losses on my account.


why would i create another account "to scam" them, if i am loosing big in mine anyways?

betcoin.ag has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to connect me to the Montenegro account, apart from the things i have admitted in my original post:

1. Same wallet address for deposit
2. Some amount of the same (similar) bets

Well,
if they decide to confiscate my (and the other person's) money based on the two above, I BELIEVE the bookies in general would open a pandora box on how they can generally scam people in the future.

In the process the many tipster sites and services on the internet (including the biggest Blogabet with half a million users) would have just need to be closed and banned as fraudulent, as the bookies will just claim the multiaccounting rule on anybody following somebody else's bets ...

the scammers betcoin have mediators on bitcoin talk. idont waste time reading his post. he just writes lengthy trash

this is exactly how the scam works . the victim is already giving up. this is exactly what the scammer betcoin is looking for

It may also feel like despair if you have to wait and you can't do anything. However, the only thing they can do now is wait until a result of investigation comes from the mediator.

After that you can always argue or enter into a discussion what the course of events is. I think speculating at the moment is of little use.

The truth will be somewhere in the middle, it's just a matter of waiting now.

bro, lets call a spade a spade. these guys dont respond to messages like this and even if they do, they dont investigate the allegations thoroughly. betcoin knows that that is why they had to use this route.

Maybe, but maybe not. I do not have any experience with betcoin so I can not share it.
What really odd is, is that they refuse to provide any kind of evidence to the player in question. They should at least hand over the information to the player.
The argument that they can not, because then the player would be able to cheat better the next time, is f** bullshit of course.

Sorry, zikzik, I did not see your reply before.  When I see RichGang as the latest poster in my Updated Topics list, I just sort of ignore the thread for awhile.


Although I am not an expert in sportsbook abuse schemes, it is my understanding that if you pull such a scheme, then you may win some here, lose some there—it is still gambling, but gambling with an unfair advantage.  Moreover, it would give you an unfair advantage over all of the people who play fairly, according to the rules.  If you are innocent here—if you yourself were playing fairly, according to all of the site’s rules—then surely, you must find such a thing objectionable!

The cost to the site from unfair play is ultimately borne by the innocent players, of course.  Otherwise, the site would go out of business.  I think that people who play by the rules should be glad that sites make sure that everybody follows the same rules.


As I have explained multiple times, both here and in the KILLYMNE thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5285526.msg55570184#post_mobile_ip), I infer that they must have some other type of significant evidence.  They must.  And if they don’t, then the mediator should kick their arses!

I will not explain further, because just in case you are guilty, I do not want to give you hints about how to get away with it next time.

My perspective on this case—if you are new here, then you would not know:  I have a reputation on this forum for technical expertise, specifically as to (a) Bitcoin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2859033.0), and also (b) privacy, security, and anonymity technologies.  If you ask around here, then even the many people who hate me (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5277804.msg55594776#msg55594776) will admit that I know much on such topics, if they are fair.  :-)

---

Quote from: nasipadang on November 16, 2020, 09:02:50 AM

The argument that they can not, because then the player would be able to cheat better the next time, is f** bullshit of course.

That is not correct.  As I have said multiple times, at considerable length.  Anyone with significant expertise in network security and abuse handling would know this to be the case.

If (if) Betcoin.AG has the type of technical evidence that I infer they must, then disclosing that evidence would indeed be tantamount to providing an instruction manual titled, “How Not to Get Caught Next Time”.

It is why I have repeatedly urged that the mediator should examine such evidence in depth, in strict confidence (and if necessary, with a consult from an expert in the manner of an expert witness).  This type of evidence can be complicated; and as discussed below (#post_reasonable_patience), the mediator should not simply take Betcoin.AG’s word for what it means.

---

Quote from: RichGang on November 14, 2020, 11:51:52 PM

this is exactly how the scam works . the victim is already giving up. this is exactly what the scammer betcoin is looking for

Yes, it is so very plausible that somebody rich like you would just give up and forget about “around 1 BTC”.  /s

---

As are many others, I am awaiting news about the SBR mediation.  In fairness to all parties, I hope that the mediator will take adequate time to understand and interpret potentially complex evidence; but the case should nonetheless be disposed as promptly as practicable.

I observe that if zikzik is innocent, then it is to his advantage for the mediator to take some time scrutinizing the evidence.  Betcoin.AG gave the mediator something.  If that something is wrong, then the mediator needs to figure out what is wrong with it—if that something is right, then the mediator needs to understand it so as to make a clear judgment.  Whatever Betcoin.AG showed the mediator, the mediator should not rubber-stamp it!

Quote from: nullius on November 05, 2020, 07:51:00 PM

Quote from: Betcoin.AG on November 03, 2020, 11:38:25 PM

We have just submitted our 6 page, 2100 word report with 27 screenshots to the mediator.  They have many cases to rule on and this one has an enormous amount of information, so we ask for your patience while this is resolved. It is also possible they will need some additional information from either us or the OP prior to making a ruling. We will update the community with the results. Thank you.

I think that the highlighted portion shows good faith from Betcoin.AG.  If they wanted for the mediator to say, “OK, wow, you showed me lots of fancy stuff!  You win!  Case closed!”, then that would be very bad; and if SBR rushed through here, then the SBR mediation process itself would lack credibility.

My perspective:  I have dealt with real-world litigation in which the judge pretty much just rubber-stamped impressive piles of stupidity.  Fair and judicious consideration of the evidence takes time.

That said, obviously, it is in the interest of all parties to get this over with as promptly as practicable.  The longer that SBR takes, the longer that this thread will continue; that is certainly not in Betcoin.AG’s best interest.

I have been finally asked the questions by the mediator, and as i was saying ALL ALONG, betcoin.ag main argument is in 3 fields

1. IP/VPN (and they dont connect the two accounts based on this)
2. same btc wallet address
3. some same bets at the same time

Now all these 3 points i have admitted in my very first post here.

Now, PLEASE PLEASE think of ANY reason, that they would not release the list of bets here. How would your (and their obviously) argument of "manual titled, “How Not to Get Caught Next Time”" apply here?

IF the other account was also mine, I KNOW ALL THE BETS I TOOK IN 2 ACCOUNTS

so what harm could listing the bets here would do? (when both account holders gave them the permission to disclose that information here)

the answer is simple - ANY person, who understands even a little in betting, will very fast figure out that the two accounts in question belong to different people.

I have asked, and asked, and asked for this information. But they would not post it here TO COVER THEIR LIES.

I obviously cannot speak to evidence that I have not seen.  However, Betcoin.AG has explicitly alleged that they have much more than that.

---

I have said my opinion that they should state your balance as requested (or at least provide some reason why they don’t).  I don’t know enough about their site to judge whether lists of bets could be in any way sensitive for their part; indeed, as I have said, I have never done sportsbook myself.  I do note, they said this:


Also, there is this:

---

C’mon, zikzik!  After all that I have said on the topic, let’s not play dumb here.  I was obviously talking about this:


In all fairness to you, zikzik, I do not know Betcoin.AG, I do not know if they are an honest site, and I cannot vouch for them.  I simply have never dealt with them before; and I do not vouch easily (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5289738.msg55609571#post_trusting_trust_feedback).

However, reading this thread (and the other one), I see that they say exactly what a legitimate site would say if they had high-tech fraud prevention technology that caught a cheater red-handed.

Only the mediator is in a position to ascertain whether or not that is what really happened here.

I agree with this user. He has nothing to hide. And the story about not showing the evidence is ridiculous.
But, we can always see what the result will be. If he will not get his winnings, then for sure it is a conspiracy.

Ah, I see what you did there.  It looks like a setup for a suggestion that if zikzik loses at mediation, then he should open a new Scam Accusation thread against SBR—and I guess, then there would need to be another Scam Accusation against SBR in KILLYMNE’s name.  ::)

What you say is unfalsifiable, and also one-sided.  I presume that if SBR rules for zikzik and tells Betcoin.AG to pay, then you will praise the mediation process as absolutely fair—perfect justice!  Whereas you have already condemned it in advance, if it goes the other way.

—Tell me, why are you so sure about what you say the outcome should be?  I myself am careful to neither predict nor advocate the outcome—because I do not have access to the substantive evidence, and I have no connection to either of the parties.  Do you?

I think that Betcoin.AG presents a credible story on this thread; but I would not be surprised, if zikzik wins at mediation.  It could go either way, depending on the evidence!

I presume that the mediator is fair and impartial.  To allege otherwise would require evidence.

the betcoing.ag representative (as well as some members of this well respected forum) just keep ditching my simple and very natural request/question:

list all the bets from the two accounts in question !!!

in my opinion it will of course prove that i am not the owner of the KillyPG account. While betcoin claim that i am, and they use the similar bet point as their major argument.

There is absolutely no security issue whatsoever with releasing this list here (as if i am the owner of both accounts, i have taken these bets and i obviously know all of them). Every neutral person would understand it. But of course, they would never do this, because it will really show how weak and stupid their "same bets" argument is.

They will just claim another security issue here and refuse to show the bets. You guys, as neutral spectators, can decide for yourself, what it really tells you about this bookie.

They just lie lie lie ...

If Betcoin claims that you control both accounts, they will have to be 100% certain. And if they are, then they have no reason whatsoever to hand the information over to you, point taken and clear. You often see that bookmakers hide behind all kinds of nonsense reasons to not have to pay. Just for the record by the way, they mean with user "KillyPG" at this link: https://tipstertube.com/profile/killypg?
The fact that Betcoin now is hiding information, only makes them more suspicious.

nullius is only in this topic trying to defend Betcoin, I would not take his comments to serious.
Why should he spend so much time and effort into this if he does not have any interest at all  ;D ;D

i never asked them for any technical information.

But they claim that based on the betting patterns (ie the bets we both took) they are absolutely certain that i own both accounts.

Well, if i own both accounts, what is the problem of listing all the bets here then? I would already know all of them (as they claim i took them in both accounts). This information would in NO WAY jeopardize any of their security protocols of course. Thats just a load of BS.

They dont want to show the bets both accounts took because it will be apparent that the two account owners are different people.

I have nothing against nullius really, but this statement is just too much  ;D

"I don’t know enough about their site to judge whether lists of bets could be in any way sensitive for their part; indeed, as I have said, I have never done sportsbook myself"

these are the bets i and the other account owner took, so if i am both these people, i know them ANYWAYS... there is 0% risk for betcoin.ag to release them.

But ok, everybody has his own reasoning ;)

i have been gambling for several years and i know a scammer when i see one. betcoin is a scammer. this s an old trick, depo small and win they let you withdraw, depo big and lost they say nothing, depo bigger and win little , they come up with reasons to steal your money. lame ass reasons.

one month has passed almost, still no resolution to this ...

the scam was successful. now they will teach other new sites how to scam. betcoin should be avoided

i should have some news soon ...

what is the point of "neutral mediation companies" if they take ages to come to a resolution. By that time, judging from today, Bitcoin can be worth nothing :(

i joke about the bitcoin of course, but the rest is dead serious :(

Did you not heard anything from them so far?
I wonder why that mediator has not been heard from for so long. Surely they could at least have launched an investigation and kept the customer informed? At least then.

you are even falling for the obvious scam lol.

what do you mean ?

you are actually waiting for the result of this . which is what they want you to do lol

sorry man, i really dont understand your point yet ...
why would they want me to wait for the result? and why is it bad for me?

I am happy to report, that after the mediation process (which was advised by the betcoin.ag representative from the very beginning) by the SBR (https://www.sportsbookreview.com/sportsbook-complaint/) a resolution has been made to this case and my funds are to be released.

As i have stated several times in my original post, this case was very far from easy from the very start. The moment i have signed up on Betcoin.ag website, i have already broke their terms and conditions, which unfortunately i did not read prior.

I have used the VPNs and as such my whole activity of course became suspicious to betcoin.ag security team.

A bit later, when my btc wallet was used to make a deposit to a different account, my activity had to be investigated further. This action by the betcoin.ag security team is of course justifiable, especially since they found out right away that the other account in question had some similar bets with my account (due to me being a tipster - a person, whose bets are followed by other bettors).

So all facts considered, i do understand that the activity of my account was suspicious to betcoin.ag and the investigation to follow was justifiable.

I am just happy that right away (in their initial response to my emails) betcoin.ag advised me to seek the mediation from the SBR.

Being a very emotional person, my first intention was to fight in public before any mediation. Well, it turns out, that all i had to do is wait for the SBR and betcoin.ag to investigate the case further.

Now i am happy that with the help of SBR and betcoin.ag security team we were able to come to an amicable solution where your account balance is released back to me.

I want to thank all the parties involved, and of course the BitCoinTalk community.

So you have received the 1 BTC from your betcoin.ag account?

Well, this is exemplary!

Thank you for the update, zikzik.  It is actually one of the best posts that I have read on this forum in awhile.


If only everyone were so introspective.  :-/

As you understand, there are people who deal with scammers every day.  They are accustomed to being told lies and excuses.  A betting man knows the odds of your story being true.

On the flipside, I understand that playing the odds can lose.  That is why I would never bet on guilt, or presume guilt in one of these cases; and it is why, although I went a bit hard on you in places, I always sincerely emphasized that if you are innocent, I hope that you get your money back!

If an innocent party only looks suspicious due to happenstance, the result can be much frustration on both sides.  Judiciousness is uncommon to human nature.  People tend to lose perspective to their own biases, and thereupon jump to conclusions:  On one side, “This guy is guilty and lying!”  On the other side, “This site is a scam!”

Most notable is your above self-reflection on emotional reactions, and your understanding of the other party’s position.  It is honourable of you.  And meritorious (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2818350.0).  Cheers.

Since you asked about “merit” before (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55565038#msg55565038), I will note:  Because I do not have “merit source” privileges, I must earn 2x as much merit as I can send to others.  I am a bit low right now on sendable merit (sMerit), and trying to conserve it.  I will therefore send you +2 now, your first forum merit—and maybe a bit more after the case is fully concluded with funds in your wallet.  I rarely send more than +1 at a time.

Now that you have at least 1 merit (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5030366.msg45810047#msg45810047), when the server slowly updates its rankings, you will see your forum rank change from “Newbie” to “Jr. Member” due to ≥30 activity (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178608.0).  It is not important; merit and ranks are excessively important only to people either who have no lives, or who are only here to grub for money with paid signatures and other bounties.  The merit system was introduced in an attempt to reduce forum spam from idiots who only post to show paid advertisements in their signatures, where paid advertising is allowed.  As you will note, I do not have any paid advertisement in my signature beneath this post.  —I just want to let you know how things work here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=703657.0).


I look forward to your update when you have received your funds.

Without knowing the details (and I do not assume you know, either), I wonder if this also means that the other related case will be resolved similarly.

You should know that I have been watching this thread carefully—as, no doubt, have many others.  For my part, if I didn’t always reply to you, it is only because I didn’t want to spam the thread with unnecessarily repetitious posts.  Here’s to a happy conclusion!

Good to see that you have got your fund back and (Betcoin.ag) made professional response from their end. Its a sign that they are providing good service after getting under new ownership. I always suggest people to keep patience which can bring positive results for them. Your post was made on october 26 and now its already been 1 month+.

You can just keep the single word "SOLVED" in your topic title and delete rest of the part.

Thank you for sharing your updates.
 

i was able to login to my account at betcoin.ag and submit the withdrawal request.
Ill update here once my 1.14 BTC is received ...

i am so happy this was resolved to your favor. i will edit my post about them once you confirm you got your withdrawal

you where not updating on the outcome of the case. so it looked like the mediators where not responding to messages. when u involve the community, you should update as messages are received

I have now received the full outstanding balance of my account to my BTC wallet. As far as i am concerned, my case is closed and solved with the help of SBR and betcoin security team ;)



i cant answer this question, as, as i have stated many times before, i have no affiliation with that person (apart from him being a subscriber to my tips service). But, if you are interested, you can follow his case at his thread at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5285526.0


I am closing this thread and changing the name to SOLVED.

UNFORTUNATELLY
i had to reopen this thread, and reinstate the old name of SCAM

there has been new developments in the other person's thread and basically betcoin.ag is STILL calling me a scammer with multiaccounts (even after they paid me all my money in full).

My reputation and my business is in danger now. As my paying subscriber (he pays me to be able to listen to my bet recommendations) got his won money stolen by betcoin.ag BECAUSE he was following my bets (betting them in betcoin.ag, and i was also betting those bets there obviously).

After the whole mediation case guy i have much more information now. All that info that myself and fellow forum members have asked betcoin.ag numerous times to show here (and betcoing.ag never did) - I HAVE NOW.

In the coming days i will lay out all the facts and you will see how many times Betcoin.ag HAS LIED (even to the SBR mediator).

I will finally show you all the bets i took (and will ask the other account owner to show his bets also) and you will see that the claims betcoin.ag makes are really laughable.

My reputation and business is on the line and I WILL NOT LET IT GO.

Through a SBR mediator i had a deal with Betcoin.ag that they will return ALL MY MONEY IN FULL and i will close this thread, write a nice message for them to look good, ETC.

And my case was close, i did all i promise.

BUT, SBR or betcoin.ag NEVER even contacted the other person and just confiscated his won money. Now i am to blame for it. My tipping business is to blame for it. Betcoin says i am a scammer and I WILL NOT LET IT GO.


now i of course have an obligation to my 10000+ subscribers to notify them that betting the bets i recommend can lead to the their money stolen. Betcoin.ag has put me in a very bad situation and I FEEL THAT MY DEAL WITH THEM IS OFF.

Hello, we have resolved this matter per SBR's recommendation.

As this was a case of multi-accounting, when we submitted the evidence to SBR, it was for both accounts, and they provided judgement in both matters.

As stated by the mediator:
"I'd suggest just the deposit then. Same for both accounts really. Lesser of balance or deposits."

Because of this, the account zik013 received his account balance, which was less than the total of deposits.
The account KillyPG received his deposit, which was less than the account balance.

We have abided in full by the mediator's judgement and are happy to put this matter to rest.

SBR provided judgement for the second account without even talking to the account owner?


JUST TO CLARIFY EVERYBODY

In my dealings with the SBR representative this is not the impression i got - he didnt conclude i had two accounts. He simply made what was necessary for me to get my money back. He did not even go into the bets details (one of the arguments betcoin.ag had was the same bets), as he felt that was not needed to successfully resolve my case = GET MY MONEY BACK

I WANT TO STATE ONE MORE TIME
and now betcoin.ag its up to you to decide - IF you still claim that i am a scammer (had two accounts), i will do all in my power to prove otherwise. PROVE TO THE PUBLIC this time to start with. I have now all the facts, all the info needed to show your wrongdoings. SBR representative did what was needed to get my money back. But he did not get into the details as it was NOT needed to successfully resolve the case. But because you are threatening my business now, I WILL NOT LET IT GO.

Now the situation for me is much better. I got my money back. I can now focus without emotion on all the facts. You can still make it right and admit your mistake (as i did admit mine - using a VPN). Just a friendly advice - dont be so sure about the outcome of this situation. You have already paid me 1.1 BTC, but you still owe the other user his 0.5 BTC (i dont know the exact number). This time i have the list of all the bets i took and the other user confirmed to me that he has his also. This is the exact information you desperately tried to hide for the past months. Now it will be public and your reputation will take ANOTHER hit.

You can still make it right. Admit your mistake.

Jesus christ zikzik.

i am not zikzik, but you think i should let them steal about 8000 USD from me?

Interestingly enough, you are now banging the drum again, going back to making threats. Not to mention, you claimed this case to be solved and you did lock the thread yet you kept the negative trust on Betcoins profile.

If SBR confirmed that you were multi accounts (feel free to refute what betcoin shared if you want, with evidence), I think you "both" should consider yourselves lucky to even get some of the money back. As this story continues to not make sense.

1. My bad about the rating. I did realize that it is still there only today. But now i have no reason to remove it. But i do apologize that i did not remove it initially (i am new to the forum, and betcoin rep did not request me to do that).

2. Yes, i am banging the drums. They are calling me a scammer, which i am not. They are threatening my business. I HAVE THE RIGHT to defend myself and will do so for as long as i can.

3. "If SBR confirmed that you were multi accounts" - i did not get this impression from my business with the SBR mediator. He was always on my side from the start.

4. I am lucky in the sense that i got my money back (even though i have LOST in my account). But i am extremely unlucky to be called a scammer now and to have my tipster business in a very very big jeopardy.

OK, here it goes.

So, concerning KillyPG account, Betcoin.ag claims that i was opened and operated my me.

This accusation is supported by only two facts:

1. The deposit to KillyPG account was made from the same btc wallet address as one of the deposits to my account
2. They claim that the betting pattern of KillyPG is the same as my betting patter (that is we took the same bets in order to "abuse their system by circumventing the betting limits")

THERE IS NOTHING ELSE that they have, that can support their claim that it was me who opened and operated the KillyPG account. I KNOW THIS FOR A FACT NOW, as i have been in the mediation case with SBR and was presented with all the facts and accusations that betcoin.ag have.

There is nothing else to connect the account with me. We are different people in different countries. KillyPG did not break any rules, he did not use any VPNs and his country Montenegro is perfectly allowed on betcoin.ag platform.

SO THAT IS IT. ALL THE ACCUSATIONS ARE BASED ON TWO CLAIMS ABOVE.


Remember that now we are only concerned with the KillyPG account. My account is out of the question now, the fact that i have used VPNs and other stuff is not relevant anymore, because the case of my account is closed and i did get my money in full back.

Betcoin.ag refused to pay KillyPG's winning from his account, accusing him of the two things above.

Now i did admit the #1 claim in my very first post and still consider that there was nothing wrong with this fact. KillyPG is not a crypto user and as i have owed him money - he simply asked me to pay him back via depositing to his betcoin.ag account, as he did not even have a btc wallet to use.

Now the interesting part about the "fact #2" is that I (and other forum users) have been asking betcoin.ag rep to provide in this topic the list of all the bets i took and the bets KillyPG took for all of us to see, HOW WE HAVE BEEN "abusing their system by circumventing the betting limits". Remember, betcoin.ag claims that i have opened this extra KillyPG account for this very exact reason.

So I have been asking betcoin.ag to provide this info here (KillyPG also authorized them to disclose his bets here) for weeks, but they ALWAYS REFUSED TO DO IT.

I mean WHY WOULD THEY NOT WANT TO DO IT? It woud "certainly" prove their point ;)

I have been saying all along, that they would not do it simply because anybody with a brain cell would right away see that the two accounts are operated by different people (bettors with different betting patterns, different styles and different bets).

I have also asked the SBR mediator to request this info from betcoin.ag, but he did not do it also, as he felt i should get my money back regardless and he did not go into those details.

So betcoing.ag would not release the bet lists as they knew it would prove i am not connected to the KillyPG account. Thats was a nice situation for them ;)

Fortunately for KillyPG, when betcoin.ag was forced to pay back my money (and KillyPG also), they did it by reopening accounts for the purpose of withdrawing. When i logged in i saw that i could copy all the information from the account and i advised KillyPG to do the same.

SO NOW WE HAVE THE FULL BET LISTS OF BOTH ACCOUNTS ;)

You understand that this comes across as very suspicious, don't you? It could be a direct reason as proof you're using the same accounts, or a conspiracy.
That was a stupid move, I can't blame Betcoin for acting like that after reading this.


Especially when reading the 1st point, should be already enough evidence. Because there is now officially proof that both accounts are playing from the same wallet.

This is your opinion. I see nothing criminal is that. Not everybody uses crypto nowadays. That WAS NOT my btc deposited to betcoin.ag, that was KillyPG's btc, as i owed it to him

Everything is just perfect for you isn't it... KillyPG can't deposit his own BTC, luckily enough you (you previously stated you don't even know KillyPG) owe him btc and can deposit it for him so that he can follow your bets and bet on only what you advised him to bet on?

Sorry but.. you said you'd accept the mediators ruling, you got your money back, KillyPG got their deposits back.. There is no issue here, it's over and done with.

Looking at how you are handling this now, merely days after it was finished goes to show that Betcoin would have been better off not paying you at all, sad to say but it's true.

This just proves that you did not even read my initial post and just defend Betcoin.ag JUST COZ, as they say ...

This is the betlist of ALL THE BETS KillyPG has taken in his accounts. The stake is in units. Each unit is 1/1000 of BTC

Date	Link	Match	Stake	Odds	Payout	Copied
Oct-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11E6FG4P)	Krystal Kherson	5	3.05	15.25
Oct-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11U5T3JS)	Krystal Kherson	10	2.1	21
Oct-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X114STAP2)	Krystal Kherson	15	1.7	25.5
Oct-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X12BBC997)	Aris Limasol	15.05	2	0	YES
Oct-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X10TNCHSU)	Concordia	30	2.45	0	YES
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11LQGC1D)	Majsus M / Vedashe	1.17	2.1	2.457	YES
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X22PU6UIM)	Buducnost	68.27	1.7952	122.5
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X22F16K9Q)	Buducnost	8.93	2.5296	22.58
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X10HK1QBL)	America	17.58	3.85	68.72	YES
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X110OLBPF)	DRASSBURG	15.38	2.15	33.06	YES
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X12BG9VXL)	Metropolitan MORNAR	75	1.75	131.2
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X103T0I8C)	Metropolitan MORNAR	0.1	1.95	0.195
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11C2MDIU)	MWADULI	50	1.65	82.5
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X20S30AW7)	NAPREDAK	6.24	2.14	0	YES
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11I7XKCT)	MAGNOLIA	60	2	120	YES
Oct-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X226AXQJR)	RUDAR	9.86	1.87	18.43
Oct-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X2037K2E9)	Dinamo Tbilisi	13.92	4.08	0
Oct-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X228F5V36)	Dinamo Tbilisi	9.59	5.47	0
Oct-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X22MBM8PP)	Bonishuk	3.54	2.01	7.1154
Oct-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X20FNWPLA)	Lamia	30	2.77	83.1
Oct-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X20J6DNS4)	Lamia	7	3.46	24.22
Oct-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X215R9570)	Lamia	7	4.95	34.65
Oct-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X12CU745M)	SGA Saratov	1	2	2	YES

This is the betlist for my account. Please note i listed only the bets for the 3 days that KillyPG had his account. Overall i have 93 more bets for a total of 4429 staked.

Date	Verify	Match	Stake	Odds	Payout	Copied
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X10FMJ8MW)	Aris Limassol FC-Ethnikos Achnas FC	34.2	2	0	YES
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11FS1HRK)	FK Mladost Lucani-FK Dinamo Vranje	33	1.8	59.4
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X105S9MML)	FK Sevlievo-PFC Slavia Sofia	4.02	1.85	0
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11JPGTQD)	CS Concordia Chiajna-CS Mioveni	35	2.45	0	YES
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X1042CA39)	Acs Dacia Unirea Braila-SCM Gloria Buzau	47.99	1.9	91.181
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X10SINW3W)	Acs Dacia Unirea Braila-SCM Gloria Buzau	21.6	2.6	0
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X12EOBW9H)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Angelov N / Rohozhyn A	7.35	1.47	10.8045	YES
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11REAP46)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Angelov N / Rohozhyn A	3.29	2.05	6.7445	YES
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X12O4F1SE)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Angelov N / Rohozhyn A	5.27	2.05	10.8035	YES
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X128276HT)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Angelov N / Rohozhyn A	8.52	1.52	12.9504	YES
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X10NCU941)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Angelov N / Rohozhyn A	4.43	2.05	9.0815	YES
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X108J9HGW)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Angelov N / Rohozhyn A	5.54	1.8	9.972	YES
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11JK7R6P)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Angelov N / Rohozhyn A	3.84	2.5	9.6	YES
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X10EDK5TI)	Yokohama B-Corsairs-Chiba Jets Funabashi	44	2.016	88.704
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X22GBU6H0)	Levanga Hokkaido-Akita Northern Happinets	24.11	2.44	58.8284
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X20T95CTA)	Levanga Hokkaido-Akita Northern Happinets	30.87	1.9	58.653
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X21M40TMD)	Levanga Hokkaido-Akita Northern Happinets	38.59	1.9	73.321
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X20WDXIQ6)	Levanga Hokkaido-Akita Northern Happinets	15.04	1.9	28.576
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X21FPAVJF)	Levanga Hokkaido-Akita Northern Happinets	34.04	3.0728	104.59811
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X22OQ0TEW)	Alvark Tokyo-Utsunomiya Brex	46.3	1.75	81.025
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X224S5KV8)	Levanga Hokkaido-Akita Northern Happinets	21.59	3.3734	72.83171
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X216L9PS7)	3 basketball + 1 football combo	11.11	6.101172	67.78402
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X20AH92W6)	5 basketball + 1 football combo	11.11	10.313104	114.57858
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X22F4SVGO)	3 game basketball combo	33.33	2.814928	93.82155
2020-10-21	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X210FOO93)	6 game basketball combo	11.11	9.696109	107.72377
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X104BDW1L)	Sao Paulo FC-Basquete Osasco	200	1.03	206
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11QKFP1W)	America FC MG-Gremio Esportivo Brasil	3.36	4.05	13.608	YES
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X122PP2QB)	America FC MG-Gremio Esportivo Brasil	33	3.8	125.4	YES
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X10QAMESF)	America FC MG-Gremio Esportivo Brasil	11	8.25	90.75	YES
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X128DH1WL)	ASV Drassburg-Bruck/Leitha	61.51	2.15	132.2465	YES
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X218AFWMH)	ASV Drassburg-Ask-Bsc Bruck/Leitha	26.69	2.06	54.9814	YES
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11PAGOEC)	United Generations For Basketball-REG BBC	48	1.9	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X12NAA24G)	United Generations For Basketball-REG BBC	56	1.8	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11AI5WC4)	United Generations For Basketball-REG BBC	67	1.8	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11U2TU1C)	United Generations For Basketball-REG BBC	55	1.95	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11L2CDGL)	Ho Chi Minh City Wings-Da Nang Dragons	55	1.95	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11AHKRIL)	Ho Chi Minh City Wings-Da Nang Dragons	44.82	1.9	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X12OJI38V)	Ho Chi Minh City Wings-Da Nang Dragons	55	1.9	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11B8PF2R)	Ho Chi Minh City Wings-Da Nang Dragons	93.65	1.95	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X12Q9FT31)	Ho Chi Minh City Wings-Da Nang Dragons	63.55	2.4	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X21JQSWOL)	FK Napredak Krusevac-OFK Zarkovo	24.97	2.14	0	YES
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X125DBMN1)	FC Dinamo Auto-FC Sheriff Tiraspol	15.39	1.37	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X107L9QOU)	FC Dinamo Auto-FC Sheriff Tiraspol	3.35	2.7	0
2020-10-20	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X121RJIUO)	Magnolia Hotshots-Meralco Bolts	99	1.75	173.25	YES
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X107EBHHJ)	Sgau-Saratov-Sungul Snezhinsk	22	1.8	39.6	YES
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X111QMT5H)	Sgau-Saratov-Sungul Snezhinsk	33	1.85	0	YES
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X11UQQINP)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Borec S / Bondarenko R	2.23	1.6	3.568
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X1050W1NW)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Borec S / Bondarenko R	7	1.65	11.55
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X10PDBNWH)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Borec S / Bondarenko R	4.06	1.7	6.902
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X118LL0O0)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Borec S / Bondarenko R	7.79	1.75	13.6325
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X1276DKWR)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Borec S / Bondarenko R	1.74	3.1	5.394
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X106X0PBH)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Borec S / Bondarenko R	6.49	1.9	12.331
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X10KBVD2P)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Borec S / Bondarenko R	12.43	1.47	18.2721
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X10SVKPNJ)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Borec S / Bondarenko R	3.44	2.7	9.288
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X105N43GI)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Borec S / Bondarenko R	3.95	2.85	11.2575
2020-10-19	verify (https://www.betcoin.ag/betslip/X1223XKI2)	Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Borec S / Bondarenko R	4.49	2	8.98

PLEASE note, that EVERY bet can be verified on the betcoin.ag website itself by clicking on the verify link. Betcoin.ag site gives access to all the bets taken on it as long as you know the bet ID.


So KillyPG had his account for 3 days, i had my account for 3 months

During the 3 days KillyPG had his account he has taken 23 bets from which 8 bets were on the same 8 matches (1 bet per match) that i had also bet in my account. On his “unique” matches he usually took 2 or 3 bets per match.

Lets take a look at those 8 bets (8 matches)

Total bet on “copied from me” matches was 146.42 (0.146 btc), this represents less than 32% of his total bets (459.63)
Average bet on “copied from me” matches was 18.3 (0.0183 btc), while average bet on unique (matches not taken in my account) match was 39.13

So to put it in perspective, on his every unique bet he took on average more than TWICE AS MUCH money then he took on every “copied from me” bet

Two of his 8 “copied from me” bets were for about 20 euros each.

Only one of his 8 “copied from me” bets was taken for more than his average bet.
It was a bet on Magnolia Hotshots-Meralco Bolts basketball game from the Philippines PBA tournament. This tournament is available to bet in Pinnacle (very high limits) for example and generally in ANY bookmaker around. This was a LIVE BET, which means GREATLY increased maximums. Was a bet for 0.06 btc.

On his “unique” bets he had bets of 0.0772 and 0.075 btc for example.

The second biggest “copied from me” bet was a 0.03 btc (remember “unique” game bet average is 0.03913 btc) LIVE bet on a Romanian Cup football (a normal tournament with quite large maximum in all the sportsbooks around). Also LIVE means increased maxbets possible.

3 of his 8 “copied from me” bets have lost. Overall he had 0.079 btc profit from “copied from me” bets. That represents 22.5% from his overall profit. So he made more than 3 times as much money on his “unique” bets, than he made on “copied from me” bets.

Now lets crossover to my account. Again, i had it for 3 months, since July. First bet i took was on August 10th.

During these 3 days that KillyPG also had his account there were 8 matches that we both had bets on - “copied from me” matches.

My total bet on those 8 matches was 421.97 which is almost 3 times as much as KillyPG. Overall the bets on the “copied from me” matches represented around 7% of my total bets (and 25% in the last 3 days).

My average bet on every “copied from me” match was almost 0.053 btc, remember KillyPG’s average bet on every “copied from me” match was almost THREE TIMES LESS (0.0183 btc).

For example,
on a “copied from me” match Sgau-Saratov-Sungul Snezhinsk i bet 0.055 btc, while KillyPG bet 0.001 (55 TIMES LESS) - 15 euro
On a “copied from me” match Majsus M / Vedashenko M-Angelov N / Rohozhyn A i bet 0.03824 btc, while KillyPG bet 0.00117 (almost 33 TIMES LESS) - 20 euro


Overall almost every game i bet at least 2-5 TIMES MORE than KillyPG.

Betcoin.ag security claims that i opened KillyPG account in order to “circumvent their betting limits”, ie to BET MORE MONEY on these “copied from me” matches.

Lets look at some of my individual bets from those 3 days (remember i am only taking into account those 3 days KillyPG also had his account, if i were to take a look at the overall statistics it would be even more overwhelming):

If i was a scammer and multi account holder (as betcoin.ag accuses me of), naturally i would want to use both accounts to bet the most on the games that i wanted. That is the whole point of their accusation, isnt it? I opened two accounts “to abuse their system by circumventing their betting limits”.

So naturally the biggest bets i wanted to take, would be taken on both accounts (otherwise where is the abuse and multi account fraud here?). Lets take a look:

The biggest bet i took in my account (talking only about those 3 days) was a bet on the Vietnam Basketball game Ho Chi Minh City Wings-Da Nang Dragons. Overall i took 0.312 btc in MY account and ZERO in KillyPG account. And LOST.
The second biggest bet i took in my account was a bet on United Generations For Basketball-REG BBC game. Overall i took 0.226 btc in MY account and ZERO in KillyPG account. And LOST.
The third biggest bet i took in my account was a bet on Sao Paulo FC-Basquete Osasco basketball game. Overall i took 0.2 btc in MY account and ZERO in KillyPG account. Finally won that bet ;)
The fourth biggest bet i took in my account was a bet on Levanga Hokkaido-Akita Northern Happinets basketball game. Overall i took at least (it was in some other combos also) 0.1642 btc in MY account and ZERO in KillyPG account. Won very nicely on that game and many combos with it.

So you can CLEARLY see that the bets i wanted to take the MOST MONEY on, were NOT TAKEN in KillyPG account. Does it make sense if i am a scammer and multi account holder? Where is the so-called famous “abusing the system by circumventing their betting limits”?

Ok, maybe i have won the most from the so called “copied from me” matches? Lets see:
Hard to find big wins in my account, as overall I was in big minus. That minus was even bigger for the last last day on which I hit 10+ combos on basketball. Some of the combos were 6 match combos (all matches won), some 4, 3 and so on. Overall on that last day on MY UNIQUE basketball (mostly Japanese) bets (mostly BIG COMBOS) i have won around 0.63 btc.

This is BY FAR the biggest profit i made on any game (in these combos almost everywhere i had the same set of japanese basketball games).

Remember in the beginning of this saga myself and some other forum members were like everyday asking betcoin.ag representative to show the list of my bets (KillyPG did authorize the release of his bets also)?

I told you even then, that it would NEVER happen. Because with this info open to the public it does not take a genius to figure out that these two accounts belong to different people with different betting patterns (see the difference of the bets on the same matches KillyPG and i usually take, for example).

Now i have proven to all of you with HARD COLD NUMBERS, that ANY claim of the so-called mysterious “abusing the system by circumventing betting limits” is just LAUGHABLE.

Now it is a fact that KillyPG and myself have a small number of bets on the same matches (and roughly the same outcomes, roughly because not ALL the bets we took on the same matches are on the same outcomes).

I am a tipster (a person who advises others on what to bet) with the best statistics in the biggest betting community in the world - Blogabet. I have over 10000 subscribers and people generally follow my bets.

KillyPG here is a member of my private paid group of people to whom i release my bets in the first place. I have proven to the SBR mediator (i was asked by him about 3 random bets betcoin.ag was interested in) that i have posted those bets to my private channel and advised my followers to immediately take them.

There is ABSOLUTELY nothing wrong with that. IN FACT, betcoin.ag do it themselves also. On their website you can find previews of different games, where in the end they give their advice, their recommendation on what to bet. Like here for example https://www.betcoin.ag/aalborg-handbold-vs-barcelona-champions-league-handball-bitcoin-sportsbook they advise to bet on -6.5 on Barcelona handball ;)

"I have no affiliation with that person, he's just a follower of my tipster service"

You can go back and ninja edit your posts if you want, the numerous posts.. It's there for anyone to see regardless.

I dont need to edit my posts. Everything i said is correct. No affiliation means i dont know that person PERSONALLY, i have no affiliation with his account.
He is a user of my tipster service and as such we have financial dealings. But i dont know who he is.

All this i have written in my very first post.

Do you mind explaining how it happens that you have no affiliation with this person, he's just buying a service from you, yet you owe him money? Quite the interesting concept.

Yes, very simple. He is paying me for my service, but as he did not use crypto and he was about to receive some crypto from his sources (i dont know which) he sent more btc to me, than he owed. So the rest i was owing to him, so he asked me to return it to him and gave me the address. The address of the betcoin account wallet. He doesnt use crypto, so this way he didnt have to deal with it. I have also explained this to the SBR mediation and he was happy with it.

I am sorry, English is not my first language. If i have used the word affiliation in the wrong context. I was referring to KillyPG account. I have nothing to do with it. Just look at the list of the bets we both took. Does it look to you that i have opened this double KillyPG account to increase my betting limits as betcoin.ag claims?

Honestly, take a look at it PLEASE. Does it look to you that way? Please answer this question ...

There are a lot of holes in your story tbh, but upon reading the op i  see that you were able to get a deal out of it somehow. good for you then

I was refunded IN FULL upon SBR mediation. The mediator told me he was on my side and did whatever was necessary to get my money back.

The question now is totally different, I AM NOT UNDER QUESTION now.

Betcoin.ag claims that i have created and used KillyPG account to "abuse their system by circumventing their betting limits"

And they base this claim on only those 2 facts i have listed above.

Please check the betlist here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55777264#msg55777264 and you can see by yourself (from my STATISTICALL analysis of the both lists) and such thing -  "abuse their system by circumventing their betting limits" NEVER EXISTED

The deal was that everyone would abide by the decision of the mediator, who was in frequent communication with both parties and spent many hours analyzing evidence. This recommendation was that both accounts were to receive the lesser of the amount between the account balance and total of deposits. We were informed by the mediator that it is SBR policy to return deposits, as they do not support punitive actions upon players.

We were disappointed with the result, but ensured that both accounts were paid within the hour. Zik013 received 1.1 BTC (the account balance, which was less than the total of deposits). KillyPG received 0.1 BTC (The deposit amount, which was less than the account balance).

Since punitive damages were not allowed to be collected, the mediator also suggested that as part of the agreement, Zik013 would have to close this thread, mark it as resolved and make a post showing that he believes our actions were justified. Zik013 was also informed by the mediator at that time that while he would be receiving the account balance, the KillyPG account would be receiving deposit only.

Prior to posting these recent updates, Zik013 sent us a message saying that if we did not pay KillyPG his winnings, he would post negative things about us in various forums. Considering he has "no affiliation with this person", he seems awfully invested in his finances. His claimed reasoning for this is that it affects his tipster business when his clients don't get their winnings. Perhaps someone worried about the sustainability of their tipster business should be more concerned about the fact that he posted in this thread several times that he was a losing gambler.

Less than a week after being paid, Zik013 has gone back on his agreement, reopened the thread and continues to defame Betcoin. We believe that this is the true “scam”, since part of the deal to receive his funds was that this thread be marked resolved and closed and once he received his payment, he went back on that.

Below we will post a statement from the SBR mediator regarding the results of this case.

The following is an unedited statement from the mediator in the case:

My name is Brad Scott and I work with SBR (sportsbookreview.com) helping players resolve disputes with sportsbooks.
 
I have been asked to provide a statement for public consumption regarding the complaint submitted by Betcoin.ag user ZIK013, so am addressing this to the wider crypto betting community.
 
Brief Background:

Betcoin.ag decided that user ZIK013 was playing from The Ukraine, was working with a syndicate from that country and was multi-accounting with account KillyPG.
 
They wanted to confiscate the account balances in line with their stated policy regarding The Ukraine  https://www.betcoin.ag/suspending-service-russia-and-ukraine-effective-immediately
 
SBR was asked to advocate for ZIK013 and after reviewing the available evidence advised ZIK013 that trying to come to an amicable agreement was the best option to see him paid.
 
Betcoin.ag said that if ZIK013 would make a public statement on the Bitcointalk forum saying that he understood why Betcoin were so suspicious and were not unreasonable to have acted as they did, and SBR would provide a report to back up that post, they would treat this as a simple multi-accounting case and not invoke their rule regarding The Ukraine

ZIK013 agreed to this, made the requested post on Bitcointalk forum, and was allowed to withdraw the account balance of that account, and the total deposits that had been made to the KillyPG account. This is what I advised ZIK013 would happen and is in line with fair industry practice for multi accounting, the lesser of current balance or total deposits.
 
ZIK013 has changed his mind after being paid, so Betcoin has asked SBR to provide the promised report.
 
SBR Role:

SBR is not a regulator and does not make “orders”. We attempt to mediate fair solutions to disputes that both parties can be satisfied with and agree to. Confidence that the wider offshore industry can be trusted, without the onerous rules of onshore regulation, is the goal.
 
We advocate for the player and try to avoid doing anything that might compromise their position, so it is with regret that I am now forced to honor the agreement and provide a public explanation of the mediation process.
 
This is not a ruling, just an explanation of the steps taken to find the best possible solution for the person we are advocating for.
 
Betcoin Allegations:

1) Playing from The Ukraine
2) Controlling more than one account & circumventing betting limits
3) Working as part of a Ukrainian syndicate
 
Evidence Offered:

1) Playing from The Ukraine

Betcoin offered activity logs where on three occasions the account was logged in from a VPN connection which changes to the same retail Ukraine ISP owned IP, causing an auto logout. The same regional VPN IP range was used both before and after these logout events, which Betcoin say is indicative of a VPN system drop out and reset.
 
I asked ZIK013 if he had any idea how this could happen.  He said he uses a multi layer setup involving virtual machines, TOR and rotating IPs from five VPN companies and it must have been from that. I said it appeared unlikely any of the 5 companies he named would control that IP and did he know if any of his providers offered “undetectable” or “retail” IPs. He said he did not really understand the system very well but some online friends had helped him set it up and one of them may have included their home IP from inside Ukraine in the rotation.

I thought that explanation brought up more questions than it answered, and there was no evidence of rotating IPs in the logs I was shown to support the theory, so decided it would be fruitless to go any further into this angle.

I asked what KYC proof ZIK013 could offer to show where he is.

ZIK013 said he is located at an address around 10 hours driving time from the suspect Ukraine IP, and in a different country. He said that he could offer passport and utility bills, a photo of himself outside his house which can be identified from Google Earth, an on demand video, or anything else within reason.
 
I believe this is more than enough to meet normal justifiable ID standards and is sufficient for ZIK013 to refute the claim that he is in The Ukraine.
 
Betcoin did not agree with that assessment, saying their experience is that operatives for the suspected group are always armed with fake KYC documents or use a “gnome” stand-in.

2) Controlling more than one account & circumventing betting limits

Betcoin is able to show that the ZIK013 and KillyPG accounts have been funded from the same source.
 
Betcoin offered six examples of the two accounts making the same maximum limit bets within less then 1 minute of each other.
 
Betcoin alleged that ZIK013 has been communicating on behalf of the KillyPG account and offered a number of examples comparing the writing style to justify their claim. I could not argue with their analysis.
 
ZIK013 said that KillyPG has made many bets that are not the same as his apart from these few examples, and is in control of his own account.
 
He says KillyPG is a subscriber to his Blogabet service and as such follows most of his bets soon after posted.

He said that the account funding was him innocently paying back money he owed and denied that he had ever communicated pretending to be the KillyPG account.

I sent ZIK013 three of Betcoin’s example bets and asked him to send me a link to Blogabet where he had posted those, hopefully just before KillyPG bet them.
 
I also asked ZIK013 if he was able to provide anything we can use to show how the money owed had originally changed hands, to support that story.

None of those three bets had been posted to Blogabet but ZIK013 provided evidence of a Telegram session where he says he shared those bets with private subscribers only.

He was unable to think of anything that could be used to help show it was a real debt.

I explained to ZIK013 that whether KillyPG is genuinely another person and all activity is innocent or not, Betcoin do have enough evidence to reasonably justify their claim that the accounts are working together and are circumventing their betting limits.

3) Working as part of a Ukrainian syndicate

Betcoin point to the Ukranian IP they detected
 
Betcoin offered examples of bets on lower leagues and alternative markets that they are suspicious of being syndicate plays

Betcoin claim that the source wallet only ever having transacted with the Binance exchange and Betcoin is indicative of how banned Ukrainian syndicates operate.

ZIK013 said he sometimes uses tips from other sources but denies acting on behalf of any other group or person.
 
ZIK013 was asked to show where several bets Betcoin were suspicious about had been posted on Blogabet, as this would go a long way to refuting the claim these were syndicate plays. But they had not been publicly posted.
 
ZIK013 said Betcoin were incorrect about the wallet usage as he had used it to fund several other bookmakers.

I put it to Betcoin that they were wrong about the wallet use history and they responded with this information;

“Here is a graph of their transactions https://imgur.com/a/4PuYgrC

That wallet on the far left starting with 13Taq is the wallet which funded both accounts. The Zik account had several other wallets which funded and received funds from Betcoin, which are part of that triangle on the left.

On the right side you see sending and receiving exposure and orange is for gambling. All Bitcoin gambling sites are a part of this software.
If I click on the orange for that wallet, you will see that it is 100% Betcoin.
https://imgur.com/a/VNzaTdG
 
To be thorough, I also checked the other 2 private wallets that were related to Betcoin and they are both 100% exposure to only Betcoin, as well.
https://imgur.com/a/N1LJFUA
https://imgur.com/a/hZOnzT2
 
He does have some other transactions which came directly from the Binance exchange but the wallet which was used to fund the Killy account and 1 of Zik's deposits was 100% only used for Betcoin.”
 
I explained to ZIK013 that although Betcoin are only assuming this is the case, I think they are not being unreasonable to be suspicious.
 
Resolution:

Given the weaknesses on both sides of the argument I suggested an agreement to allow both parties to get most of what they want. Betcoin to be cleared of the wrong doing that has been alleged, and ZIK013 to be paid out.

ZIK013 made the requested conciliatory public post and was paid his full balance, as it was less than his deposits, and the KillyPG account had all betting cancelled and the total deposits refunded, as the balance was higher than the deposits.

This is in line with SBR policy and fair industry practice and I think was the best solution for both parties in these circumstances.

I hope this helps provide some clarity for the bitcoin betting community.

Good on you Betcoin for sharing what actually happened. I, as I'm sure many others do too, feel like this has been resolved. Shame on you zikzik for going out of your way to not respect the ruling and continuing being a nuisance. Some funny points brought up actually.. Top tipster on your blog yet you are a losing player on betcoin. Backing down on your word - classic.

Judging by the lack of presence from other members of the forum in either of these threads since this was resolved I'd say the community has shown where it stands on this matter.

Oh and good for you on honoring your word and paying out that 1.1BTC as per the mediators ruling, Betcoin! See that zikzik? Betcoin said they would do something and they actually did it.

I am sorry, no offense, but i feel it is just pointless for me to talk to you. When you have asked me questions, i have answered you within minutes.

When i have asked you a very fair question yesterday, and even said PLEASE, you decided to simply ignore it. This is the EXACTLY the same practice as betcoin.ag took, just simply ignoring the questions that will harm them.

Once again i repeat, look at the bet lists here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55777264#msg55777264

and see that there is no connection and alleged abuse

---

This is LAUGHABLE.
The SBR mediator did not request the full lists of all bets from the two accounts. How can he believe in "circumventing betting limits" when he did not even see ALL the bets.

Here i have posted them all and ANYBODY can see that these accounts belong to different people

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55777264#msg55777264

---

LOL, this is Bitcointalk forums. Here people will actually understand.
I used Bitpay wallet. I provided VIDEO to the SBR mediator showing that my wallet has many many different transactions. Some to bookies, some from bookies, some to/from other sources, including the incoming transactions on behalf of KillyPG (thats how my debt to him originated, see my other explanations).

But betcoin decided to play dumb and only talk about addresses they saw that were connected to my deposits to them, BUT, in BitPay you can generate new address everytime you send/receive. So i did many times of course. But all of those transactions were from/to my Bitpay wallet, and betcoin of course can not see them. But i have provided the evidence video to SBR, but betcoin still continue to lie ...

---

One more time i repeat.

I had my account for 3 months, KillyPG had it for 3 days

KillyPG has took very few bets.

Please take a look at ALL the bets he and myself took. Do you see ANY SYNDICATE betting or ANY ABUSE of betting limits?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55777264#msg55777264

IT JUST DOESNT MAKE SENSE. STOP LYING BETCOIN

---

This is very manipulative wording.
The SBR mediator did not check all the bets taken by the two accounts. Here is the full list https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55777264#msg55777264

Anybody with a clear mind can see that there was no manipulation of the betting limits !!!

SBR sent me 3 random bets, i have sent them VIDEO of me posting those 3 bets to my Telegram channel, where i recommend bets to my subscribers. Why they keep talking about Blogabet? I dont have to post bets there for the whole world to see, i post them to only to my channel subscribers. It is absolutely logical.

---

I have never changed my mind. But talking to the SBR i have always stated that i have NO AFFILIATION with the KillyPG account and AS SUCH, i could only be negotiating ABOUT MYSELF.

I was happy with the resolution about MY OWN ACCOUNT. Betcoin scammers finally paid after a month of them bragging about their 100500 page report on my alleged wrongdoings and abuses. As i have been saying all along, they will pay, because they are mistaken.

But after i publicly acknowledged my satisfaction and understanding the situation, betcoin.ag continued to call me a scammer and refusing to pay the won money to the other user BECAUSE OF ME.

I had to take a stand to defend my name, reputation and my business.

THE SCAMMERS were sure they would not pay, BUT THEY PAID ME IN FULL and they will have to PAY THE OTHER PERSON IN FULL ALSO.

P.S. here is the full list of the bets from both accounts, TRY TO FIND ANY ABUSE there ;)
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55779792#msg55779792

---

STOP LYING ALREADY

i have posted ALL the bet lists, please show at least 1 example of the same MAXIMUM limit bets in the two accounts ;)

you guys just LOVE DIGGING ... you just keep digging yourself in a hole  ;D

here is the bet lists
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55779792#msg55779792

anybody can see that there was no abuse of the betting limits... NONE WHATSOEVER

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

Hm almost 2 months i've posted on this thread i thought all problems have been solved since OP has received his money. But OP, why do you care too much about a guy who bought signal tips from you? He has received his deposit already, so i think it's fair for both parties. You can even refund his signal tips money (assumed KillyPG has paid you for your signal) or allowing him follow your signal again in the future without any additional payment since you have said you are a popular sports tipster

Unfortunately the situation is not that simple. KillyPG claims i am responsible for his lost winnings now and unless i make them return it, i may have problems with my business in the future. Its all recommendation based in this field ...

Betcoin.ag also still make the false claim that i am a scammer and it is another hit for my reputation. I want them to apologize and acknowledge that i am not a scammer. As DID I towards their whole handling of the situation with me. Remember my account was cleared by the SBR (money paid in FULL) "given the weaknesses on both sides of the argument" - this is a quote from the SBR. SO TO START WITH, the whole betcoin.ag argument WAS WEAK.

And SBR even said this WITHOUT looking at bets in both accounts !!!

You seem to understand in betting, please take a look at these bet lists
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55779792#msg55779792


Can you see any abuse as betcoin.ag claims?
Why does KillyPG has to loose his rightful winnings?



what i dont understand the most,

is WHY THE BOOKIES CAN GET AWAY WITH STEALING AND LYING

they claim i "abused their system to circumvent their betting limits"

they REFUSED to supply the bet lists in question. I supplied them, ANYBODY can see ANY ABUSE in those bets?

its simple as that guys. I have to take a stand. They LIE, they STEAL, they REFUSE to supply evidence, they choose to IGNORE REAL EVIDENCE.

Unless they admit their mistake, they are scammers !!!

I'm a bit busy right now to see your bet list (it's very long bet list on above).

Well then it's up to you and KillyPG how to solve your both problem, since you have received your money (deposit including your winning), maybe you can share some of your winnings to KillyPG as a compensation of his lost winnings.

You should lock this thread and change the title since your problem with betcoin.Ag has been solved and if you still want continue to disscuss between killyPG and betcoin.ag, you can post on his own thread

Sorry, but you got it wrong.

I did not have any winnings, i had big minus with betcoin.ag

They have returned my balance with them 1.1 BTC, but i have deposited around 1.8 BTC in total

This is also part of my whole point - THERE WAS NO ABUSE.

I had lost big in my account, more than KillyPG won in his, for example ...

Yes i agree. Zikzik can pay me my winnings for betcoin.ag, dont care. I just want my winnings back to me. I did not do anything wrong. I did not bet together with zikzik, i had my own bets

Oh well, sorry i don't know 1.1 Btc only deposit. Well, still got ~73% back from your deposit still a good sum of money (Bitcoin is around $19k though).

Don't get me wrong. What i mean share some of his money is not all your lost winnings, it's just a compensation, but it's back to both of you how to settle it.
Betcoin.Ag already agreed and returned the money to both of you based on SBR told to you all, i think betcoin.ag is done with this problem.

Well, i dont want to pay my money to KillyPG if he fairly won it in betcoin.ag

The SBR mediation case was for MY ACCOUNT. They have never contacted the other person (even though i have advised him to email SBR proof of his whereabouts), neither SBR nor betcoin have replied to his emails since the day they closed his account.

Why do you say they are done? It is not fair. I have proven with the betlist (remember betcoin's main argument was that i opened KillyPG's account to "abuse their system by circumventing their betting limits"), that there was no abuse going on, NOTHING out of the ordinary.

Yet they call black on white, yet they keep lying. They call me a scammer, they steal KillyPG's money. And i have to pay for it???

Not going to happen. They were ABSOLUTELY 100% sure that i will not get a penny from them. I got almost 20 000 USD of my RIGHTFUL money. Now lets see if will be able to get KillyPG his rightful WON money back.

If they apologize to me for calling me a scammer, pay KillyPG his WON money - the case will be closed. Otherwise it will go on. I have kept the whole betting community out of the loop on this one for now (although i do get a lot of messages asking me about this betcoin.ag lately), but it is about to change big time.

Betcoin.ag IS SCAMMING PEOPLE. They wanted to scam me, confiscated my 20 000 USD, where so sure i will not get it back. BUT I DID. Because i am not a scammer. Betcoin.ag are THE SCAMMERS HERE.


anybody who understands in betting can check out the bet lists here
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55779792#msg55779792

AND UNDERSTAND HOW BETCOIN.AG IS LYING !!!

Yes, keep going with that route zikzik... Unless they pay out to your friend you are going to stir up a ruckus within the betting community. Lmao

Unless you start answering questions i asked you very politely, i will just ignore your messages. You have not shown any respect to me, but i, on the other hand, will not lower myself to that level ...

You were absolutely sure i would not get a cent from betcoin, and here we are 20 000 $ later  ;D

Yes.. You were so polite that you came at me from multiple accounts disregarding anything I had to say since it was an #AD post. Give me a break, lol.

multiple accounts in your dreams, lol ;)
you even took the same accusation lines as betcoin.ag  ???

Oh, so it's either agree with you 100% or I'm just in the wrong?

No, i am sorry if i gave that impression. In no way i wanted to offend you or say anything bad about you. Anybody is entitled to his/her opinion. Thats is the correct way.

You have your opinion. And i respect that (and for the record, i have never wrote to you from different accounts, i have only this account in this forum. You must have mistook somebody else for me ...)

So, please, being a fair person, please, look at this list here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284557.msg55779792#msg55779792

And tell me ONLY YOUR opinion, where here have i "abused the system to circumvent betting limits"? (as the alleged owner of both accounts)

Once again, i am really sorry if i have offended you in any way before. It was not intended. I am sorry.

Don't be sorry.. As far as the betting list goes - I do not care much for it. Looking from the statements from SBR it is clear that the betting was not the only cause, and considering you agreed to leave it be if you got paid and yet here we are not one week later I can't really take your word for any of it.. I could give you a list of matches and bets and all but it doesn't really matter much in the grand scheme of things.

You are one of the most profitable tipsters on blogabet, correct? Why don't you just offer this killypg dude free tips for a while until the money has been recouped? Seems like such a simple solution to this issue where, in all honesty, you guys fucked it all up by using the same wallet (I consider your story about it all "shady" at the best).

I really don't see any point to continuing this. Betcoin gave you their side, SBR ruled on it and as far as anyone else is concerned this has been settled. At this point you are just wasting your own time, time that could be spent on recouping these "losses" (not "losses" as KillyPG received their deposit back).

I am sorry, but you are very wrong here. Betcoin.ag claims that i have created multiple accounts to "abuse their system by circumventing their betting limits". WHERE IS THE PROOF OF THAT? Did i do it? They claim yes, the bet list PROVES OTHERWISE. Thats the very main argument in this case. Thats the whole point of "my multiple account scam" !!!

Once again i repeat about the SBR case (and i have HARD proof of every word i say, INCLUDING screenshots of SBR conversation with betcoin.ag):

1. SBR case was only about MY account. KillyPG SBR report is unanswered to this date.
2. The case about my account is closed. SBR ruled that betcoin.ag argument was weak. I got my money. The question now is why betcoin.ag is still calling me a scammer and not paying the other person his winnings.
3. The SBR mediator did not even look at the whole list of bets. Betcoin.ag has lied to them about the maximum bets we both allegedly took.
4. The SBR mediator did not even know the balances of both accounts WHEN TAKING DECISIONS about payments. It just shows that he did not look into this case very thoroughly. He was lied to by betcoin.ag and did not check it.

EVERY word that is written above i can prove with screenshots of my correspondence with the SBR (and screenshots of SBR+betcoin.ag correspondence). I did not want to do this, but i will do it if i have to.



You dont see a point, but i do. Justice HAS TO BE SERVED. They are wrong in this case and THEY KNOW IT.

That is exactly WHY THEY PAID ME IN FULL.

I have been saying it since the very beginning, but nobody believed me ...

But you didn't get paid in full, as per your own account you got your deposit back which is industry standard in similar cases, no?

i was paid the balance which i had in the moment i got my account closed. With all the bets settled as won later that day. Total about 1.1 BTC

 u need to shut up man. u are a bloody scammer. i am sure u tried to scam betcoin.
you got paid and u still tarnishing their image? for what reason man?

you where able to get it because of the support of some guys here that thought you where someone reasonable. now that we all know u are an idiot and a scammer. i bet you, u will get nothing more than what you already got.  wil advice you stop tarnishing the image of betcoin

ignore him. it is clear he is the scammer here. idiots like him should be banned from these forum. we supported his lies before because we thought he was reasonable. with his recent display of arrogance and deceit, it is obvious he cant be trusted. i wish you never refunded the btc to the idiot

if he has had his money and has not reported an update then he has caused heavy damage to betcoin.ag and he can blame himself it is good that it has been solved but the least he could have done is everyone on the forum inform that its solved and maybe its time to lock the topic

I have reported all the updates, Betcoin.ag has paid me in FULL (because SBR reported that their evidence was not strong enough), BUT they keep calling me a scammer and they have still not paid the other user. They decide to steal his money.

They are scammers, they were SO SURE i would not get a cent from them, but yet, they have paid me 20 000$+

Because they were afraid, and still are ;)

You are mistaken, they paid you because they gave their word that if SBR ruled that they should - they would. Unlike you who also agreed to things when taking that money yet you went back on your word merely days later.. But it's fine, not a lot of people are taking you seriously anymore.

he was screaming everywhere here. when he collected the coins, he went silent, no explanation on how it went or shitt. now he is back with another scam plot. the dude should be banned from here. scammers like him are not welcome here

shut up man. they pad you just because we in the forum backed u up. but your ungrateful scamming ass wont stfu. now u wanna scam more. i can promised you that this time u will get nothing. u are nothing but a useless scammer and blackmailer

he is a scammer. i am sure me and others that made betcoin even agree to listen to the fool are now regretting. these type of people are cheap blackmailers. why he is not banned yet is what i dont understand. he should be banned and given multiple negative trust