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Today we continue with another chapter of the series: enjoy communism, lest we forget.

Enjoy comunism: Venezuela raises monthly minimum wage to $2.40 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5334667.msg56916901#msg56916901)

Enjoy comunism (II): Venezuela to cut 6 zeros from its currency (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5353008.msg57627695#msg57627695)

The other day I saw an interview by JR with Yeonmi Park, who escaped from NK, which you can see here:

Yeonmi Park Details Horrific Effects of North Korean Starvation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK6psAnynUA)

That I found shocking. We don't know as much about NK as we do about Cuba or Venezuela because, for example, people don't have access to the internet, so videos of what the government doesn't want to be seen, such as food queues and empty supermarket shelves in Venezuela, are not leaked.

I'll summarize some points for those of you who can't or don't want to see it.

1) A distance that you would travel by train in one hour in a western country, can take you a month, because the train only runs once a month and the train only runs once a month and there is not much electricity in NK, so sometimes people have to push their trains.
2) Talking about her childhood, if her mum went away to find food, she never knew if she was going to see her again. People didn't have phones or couldn't write letters (it seems that nowadays it is allowed to a certain extent  (https://www.dailynk.com/english/an-indepth-look-at-north-koreas-po/) but people don't have internet access.
3) People usually died in train stations, they were piled and as they were rigid, they seemed piled wood. Seeing those dead bodies for her was completely normal, as normal as water is for fish.
4) They don't have running water. They have to go to the springs or wells to bring drinking water home. She describes a situation where she went to get water, and there was a boy begging for money, with part of his organs out, surrounded by flies and dogs surrounding him as well. She did not feel anything, as it was something usual, like seeing dead bodies.
5) When she was 13, she had stomach ache. They don't have x-rays or anything. She was operated on, without anesthesia. They don't have penicilin. It you have to get an injection, the nurse uses the same needle for everyone, so the chances of you catching something in the hospital are high.
6) They don't have indoor WC for the patient. When she went outside she could see piles of dead bodies and rats eating human eyes. There were also hungry children around trying to catch the rats. When they did, they sometimes eat them raw. As a result, some of the children got sick and died.
7) It's an entire country in a perpetual state of starvation. When she was there, she never eat until she was full. She was always hungry.

This is a single interview from a person who lived there and someone could argue that it is biased, but searching the net we can see other similar testimonials, for example:

Train platforms full of dead bodies, cleaning filthy toilets with bare hands and eating rats to survive: North Korean defector reveals harsh reality of life inside brutal labour camps
 (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2939256/Train-platforms-dead-bodies-cleaning-filthy-toilets-bare-hands-eating-rats-survive-North-Korean-defector-reveals-harsh-reality-life-inside-brutal-labour-camps.html)

Let us not forget. There has not been a single communist regime, not one that did not work, but one that did not starve to death and repress its population.

This is one of the severe issues of the contemporary communist regime. They monopolize information so people don't know what's the actual decent life out there. They don't know if eating rats (for example) is bad. They don't know if they can actually criticize the government, and then they think if their suffering is because foreign countries hate them.

Anyway, related to the economic issues, we all know that centralized planning doesn't work because no one can know what will happen in the future. Communism could work if Merlin-like economist with his almighty crystal ball exists, aside from the corruption issues.

Since you cannot verify the truth of what he says, his statements cannot be taken as a description of what is happening in North Korea.
I have read some information about this country and it does not seem that its condition is as dire as it happens in Venezuela, but it still has the basics of life such as food and drink.
For example, when talking about trains, I expect that many people are countryside, so they do not need to go to the capitals as we do.
Also, the electricity and energy crises make the country poor, but it is not so bad that people leave hungry.
Finally, the regime in Venezuela exercises absolute power, and therefore it is natural that we witness the absence of freedoms and economic collapse.

Let us not forget, calling something communism does not mean it's comunism. There is not one single word in the writings of Marx or Engels where it's noted that a communist regime needs to be a totalitarian dictatorship. And that's what NK is, a totalitarian dictatorship. So were a bunch of other regimes that disguised themselves under the communist flag. But ya know what, there are a bunch of other dictatorships that have nothing to do with communism and are still repressive regimes. I was born in a socialist regime that eventually broke down because of right-wing aspirations disguised under the banner of ''freedom''. As things are going right now, I can tell you for a fact that the situation of an average woman or man was better in socialism (in my country) than it is now and it's constantly going downhill. And what did the so-called seekers of freedom that opposed communism brought to my country? More corruption, thievery, and economic despair, and religious oppression in quantities never seen before in socialism (in my country).

Please, don't mix political theories with real-life adoptions and someone calling something a certain name. I can tell you from my experience, that ''communism'' you are talking about is not communism but rather a monarchy wrapped into a totality regime.

The problem with all this is that there has not been any country that called itself communist and that followed at least in the basics the ideas of Marx, that did not end up in totalitarianism, repression and starving the population. Not one.

So, a theory that when applied repeatedly is a disaster in all cases is a garbage theory. It is not that it is badly applied, no, it is that it is a big piece of shit.

Communism can't work.  At least not if there are human beings involved; that's been proven over and over, and no more experiments need to be run as far as I'm concerned.  Capitalism has its problems, of course, but I think even the poorest person in a capitalist society would prefer that system over communism, where their personal situation would probably be even worse.

As long as North Korea isn't planning on nuking any other country, I say let them be.  I'm tired of the US or any other country (but it's usually the US) trying to be the global police.  If North Koreans rise up and smash their dictator, that would be the best thing for them.  If another country went in and deposed him, who knows what could happen.  We could have another Vietnam or some other huge disaster that could result in lives being lost unnecessarily. 

I sympathize with the citizens of North Korea and wish them well, but what can or should the world do about their woes?  They need to rise up and fight, IMO, if they're tired of being under the thumb of a dictatorship.

Listened to her weeks ago, I found it abit hard to believe... or better still, I didn't completely trust that because I haven't verified it yet. I guess the best way it can be verified is to have neutral access to the country. You'll probably need to have over 29 honest people confirm this by paying random visits to any community. And this could be allowed to happen for more than a month until many communities are visited and reports compiled.
I have observed people exaggerated things on the internet or media concerning things that happen in places I'm familiar with... I wouldn't totally believe until I get that from reliable/trustworthy sources

What she said that really interests me alot was that she was not used to not being told what to do in here new country like it was done in the country she fled from, and she didn't really like that... so I concluded that they were heavily controlled over that she thought it was ok/better to be controlled.

The problem with North Korea is that they're backed by China and Russia to continue living like this and at the same time keeps the Kims in power and hold off US and it's allies to focus on this rogue nation while the other rivals floursih. Communism is good in theory but the problem is that people that taste power becomes corrupt so it can't work on application, the evil in man's heart will always creep in to make things ugly.

Agreed, this is the excuse that it is used to try communism one more time, those other countries were not really communist they say, we have the right formula they say, and despite all of this the results always end up being the same, however in theory communism sounds attractive to a lot of people that are envious that a single person has billions in wealth and they want that wealth for themselves, not understanding that communism does not lift the floor but it lowers the ceiling for everyone, so everyone, except those which are part of the top, will have to make do with almost nothing until the system fails.

Don't forget the part that anything that is so small and the family and the oligarchs(yes, they have oligarchs, despite being a communist country) find offensive, you will be sent to a prison camp where you are going to be tortured endlessly and you will be having free trial if not real hell in those prison camps, torture for breakfast, torment in lunch and agony for dinner. North Korea is a deplorable place that should never exist. Communism there is only applied to the poor people.

I second that, and what I believe is there is no dictatorial regime that began in a day, it is a gradual process when power hungry and brutal people take power, they slowly make things dictatorial, thus the people of North Korea should not have allowed things to get this bad, if it actually is as bad as the person in that interview claims; thus the people of North Korea should have opposed this sort of totalitarianism from the beginning, it seems it has gotten out of hand at the moment, which makes it hard to repress.

Having said that, what the outside world can do is just to to create awareness on what is happening, but I think if there is to actually be any change, then there must be a revolution, and it must stem from within and nowhere else.

The Pharmacist, you say as if you have something to compare with, as if you have experienced the communist regime on yourself ... it just seems to me not very appropriate to compare the political regime of North Korea with communism as such. In addition, the main difference between North Korea and other communist countries lies in the ideology of Marxism, and this is also the main problem. Since the one-party system can change, but the completely ingrained mentality - no (as it was in the USSR). Even the tough political regime of the USSR was not so tough compared to the Korean regime ... not to mention China, where only a name remained of communism. Besides, North Korea is not a threat to either the United States or South Korea (not in a year or in 50 years).

Not communism nor socialism can prevent corruption, thievery, and economic despair from our society. If we do not have an educated and helpful-minded society then there will be problems in our society. We must know that a country can be great by its people not by its ideology. In NK people let this happens after the Korean civil war. They believe in NK propaganda and support their leader with it. Now the whole population is stuck with this dire situation.

Omg, that’s really terrifying and was hard to read. This was shocking to me as well. I knew about the starvation in NK, but the dead bodies, operations without anesthesia, that was an eye-opener.

Communism is terrible, I really want to punch people sometimes when they say that it can bring good. No way. It’s a hypocritical regime, aimed at bringing happiness only to the higher levels of society at the cost of other people’s lives, and that is unacceptable.

I really hate what is happier in NK. Why don’t people stand up and fight against it? I thought they had strong propaganda there and believed that they lived the happiest lives and the West is all rotten. But how can anyone living in such conditions think that there’s something worse, than this? The whole population is suffering, I really don’t get why isn’t anyone doing something about it.

Like it or not, you have to admit that the communists have the best PR among all the political parties. I have seen a lot of youths in my country idolizing criminals such as Stalin, Kim Jong Il and Che. These guys (mostly in their late teens and early 20s) get so brainwashed by the communist propaganda, that they consider it cool to disregard the national flag and national anthem. Some of them openly insult the army and support the terrorist groups. But this happens only in non-communist nations. I have never seen anyone from Cuba or Venezuela supporting communism. Perhaps they have first hand account of how to live in a communist state and that's why they hate them so much.

Communism comes from the lack of knowledge from people's side and will allow the government to rules over people and abuse them and take advantage. Unfortunately, in countries such as North Korea, their government won't allow people to get in touch with other people all over the world and will break them both economically and mentally. There are many theories and thoughts about North Korea, in my own idea if you take people's first needs they such as the ability to have freedom they will look for freedom and will not ask for any second priority needs such as internet connection or strong economic power. Also, they abuse the people's traditions and religions, that's how communism rules over the world. Just like what they do on Venezuela.

Better mention it as dictatorship because every communist country is almost having the dictatorship rule which doesn't care about the people still they are funding the nuclear weapon research. I think Kim also accepted the hindrance of food supplies in their country in the international media which he never did that before itself a proof that how worse the situation of North Korea at the moment.

If there is something called God then please take care of such people.

I very much agree with this. I don't think capitalism is perfect, but it is certainly much better than communism, and in developed countries we have a mix of capitalism (free market, free enterprise) with socialism (regulations, taxes, redistribution).


That is why I have created this series of threads, so that people are aware and do not forget what communism means. I have seen examples in this forum of that very thing you say.

I would just like to add that in Defector Yeonmi Park on Escaping North Korea (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMK1KEk5OdU).

She explains how she was able to escape from NK when she was 13 or 14 years old but now it is impossible because as people were escaping, the NK government increased the security measures and now there are electric fences, guards shooting to kill and then there are landmines. According to her:

"The entire country became a concentration camp."

It must be remembered that communism is such a wonderful system that all communist regimes kill people if they try to escape from there, lest they go abroad and tell what is there, and everyone wants to go and live in those communist countries (note the irony).

And what exactly is happening in the not communist capitalist world? The Governments don't rule over people? They don't abuse them? They don't take advantage of them? Really? Because I know people who lost jobs and wound up on streets while the governments were bailing out financial institutions back in 2008. Do you know what else I heard of? People losing their jobs and livelihood when accused (falsely or legit) of being communist supporters, and put on trial (U.S. in the 50s). What about monarchies in the Arab world, where they abuse workers that come into the country to work (Looking at you Dubai). 1 in 6 children—12.5 million—live in food-insecure households in the U.S. I was never hungry not once when I lived in a Socialist country and we were lower middle class.

Only their leaders and the rich ones are enjoying this kind of government. The hunger in NK is caused by poor government who's crazy in building weapons rather than producing food added by economic sanctions given by international community. Their leaders are having their best lives while their constituents where hungry and having no opportunities to have a good life. I feel sad for these people.

Of course that's how it is, communism is just an illusion so the real tyrants can trick the population into believing that they're going to deliver them the paradise that they're asking for when it's really hell that they give to this people, look at Cuba, they're not prospering, they don't even have the Internet because Castro wanted communism. Remember when China destroyed their ancient artifacts as a sign of movement towards a better country, now they're chasing it and they only have fakes in mainland, all the originals are in Taiwan. Communism works in theory and in the mouth of a sweet talker and good public speaker but it won't ever work in practice because only the poor is going to suffer.

Pardon my ignorance but I really have to ask, is this happening in this 21st century or it is the lifestyle of before in NK? I can seem to wrap my head around people not having access to the basic human stuff! How in the world I'd the people over there able to survive on a daily basis! I really can't imagine a life much harder than what this people are going through if this is what is happening, anyone able to flee from such life should be very thankful. :'(

Yes it's still happening, we just don't see it and it's not documented since people are known to get jailed if they bring or smuggle footages on their cameras, the soldiers of the regimes checks everyone because they don't want anything getting out but they're sometimes unsuccessful so we see a glimpse of the atrocities in this rogue country. They eat anything and the government still provides but not enough.
Totally agree with this one, communism is like utopia in a sense that they don't exist in real life, they're only ideas meant to drive people to do things to drive themselves towards it trying to achieve it when in reality it's not even going to happen no matter how hard they try, man will always be corrupted when they handle power.

People do know what's going on in Venezuela for the most part, everyone just ignores it because we're not allowed to talk about how socialist countries fail hopelessly with their economic situation, and how hyperinflation spirals out of control when you put all your eggs in one basket. With Venezuela, the price of oil dropped and their economy crashed because there wasn't enough economic activity to pick up where the oil left off, thanks to the government.

I have to say I was quite ignorant about North Korea before this topic, I have to admit to that. I thought that NK was a big dictatorship that was fascist in every possible way, sort of like Hitler and Nazi Germany, that is what I believed what was going on there. Turns out, they claim that they are a socialist nation! What an interesting view.

Now, I wonder if people here believe that this was communism failing? I mean is there any human on this topic that believes the fact that there is a fat guy at the top doing everything he wants, eating, dancing, having sex, limitless power, with some less powerful but still quite powerful generals, with death squads, with everything else that is wrong with that nation and people starving under the regime, is... communism? I mean do you know what communism is? Commune, community, communism? I still dislike communism, that is for sure (still a leftist though) but I am pretty sure any person who has ever known what a real communism is would probably know that this is a fascist dictatorship, you are aware of that right?

The mainstream media is mostly left-wing (with a few exceptions such as Fox news) and want us to believe that Socialism will result in rivers of milk and honey. But in reality, it results in the slavery of 99% of the population by the 1% elite (similar to the case in North Korea and Cuba). It is very interesting that most of those who praise socialism nowadays are those who have no experience of living in a socialist country. Hopefully these guys will get an experience to enjoy the wonders of socialist rule, when Kamala Harris is elected as the POTUS in 2024.

Totally agree with this one, there's no such thing as equal in communism, it's just a tyrant replacing another tyrant with the current tyrant saying that they're the savior of the people even though it's not the case. It's just so sad that this is also a test of loyalty because you won't suffer from the wrath of communism if you are utterly loyal towards the tyrants in power.

Communism has killed more people than any ideology other than organized religion in the recorded history. Mao Zedong caused 80 million deaths, while Josef Stalin is close behind with 60 million to his name. Then there are a few others like Pol Pot and Kim Jong Il, with a few millions to their name. If people still support this horrible ideology even after all this, then I have to say that they are delusional. Communism is an ideology that needs to be wiped out from the surface of earth, just like other horrible ideologies such as Nazism and Wahhabism.

It is more about how in many parts of the world the extremes almost always get away with these type of things. You can call it communism, you can call it whatever you want, hell Nazis were "national socialist" as well, the socialist is in the name, if you want to call them leftists then you practically can, sure it may not look like it right now but the idea of "lets murder everyone who is not German and then make sure that all Germans are living great thanks to that" was communist back then, they never really put any difference between Germans, they were communist regarding their own citizens.

It is just a name, fascist, capitalist, democratic, communist, leftist, rightist, secular, religious all of these do not mean a thing, NONE, because it depends on the person who rules a nation. Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden are all the same nations presidents, but did the nation looked exactly the same under their tenures? Each made same nation look different. Hence you can be sure that it is not about the name or the party, it is about the person that is ruling, there are bad rulers and there are good politicians, irregardless of the ideology they have.

That's myy point, it's because men will always be evil and men won't ever want another to be better or equal to them, humanity is built on competition, it helped us survived but it's also our deadlock, we won't advance real fast with our current mentality.

There is another way of looking in to it. There are almost 8 billion humans in this planet and even then all of them are unique in terms of skills, intelligence and technological knowhow. According to nature's rule, those with better skills should survive and the rest should perish. Humans have changed this equation and allowed everyone to survive. But history has taught us that whenever you disrupt nature's laws, the consequences would be severe. And that is the reason why socialist nations are some of the poorest in the world.

It's alright as long as you learn something new, it's all good, that's what life is, you start an ignorant and with the help of the information we will be able to change our minds or not but at least now we are aware. Fascism is what's happening to most countries now although they like to call it democracy when in fact the voters don't really have a say on where the country goes next. What NK is suffering is communism, fascism is when the government becomes a corporation.

One of the big problems is that for the most part communist regimes realize very fast they need complete control of the information for them to remain in power, it is not rare that the people living in communist countries and that have been under it for decades do not really have an idea of how people live in the rest of the world and instead of being mad about their poor living conditions they think the rest of the world is worse and they are lucky to live under the communist regime, this is difficult to do in this day and age but this is happening at North Korea right now.

Unfortunately, any information you may possibly get from NK is certain to be biased and difficult to validate or disprove. NK is opaque like few countries out there, but in terms of their economy it is obvious that it is impossible that people in the country are doing well in general, let alone people who have been marked by the regime as enemies.

Regarding the communism in general, people in countries with more or less free markets and more or less "capitalist" would be greatly surprised to know that those communist regimes do have supporters. When the USSR imploded, most people lived without any luxury and they certainly did not have many of the freedoms that democracies had, but they mostly had a roof over their head, a job and food - zero luxury of course other than culture perhaps.

"Capitalist" countries are great at marketing - as it could not be otherwise - and do well presenting examples of people who are successful under the regime, but there is certainly plenty of dirt under the carpet and millions left behind. You will rarely see interviews and documentaries about children living in cars and dying for lack of medical care, people living in hoods in which their only realistic survival option is to join a gang, even modern slaves working in inhuman conditions, etc. Yet that does exist in capitalist countries.

Unfortunately, the middle way and the moderate opinions are not in fashion and everything has to be either black or white. If you support moderation and complex answers you are usually hated by everyone and each group will accuse you of having a political agenda behind your views. Yet here is my view, a purely Capitalist regime is sustainable but leaves many behind. A purely communist regime ignores some of the basic inclinations of people and cannot work. Some countries are not even ready to discuss anything but a tribal government due to the lack of education.

Unfortunately, people abide mostly by simple answers, simple slogans, tweets and, in general, that which makes them feel better about themselves.

Unfortunately, there's no chance for North Korea's people to topple their government, because revolutions happen when people are strong and government is weak, but in North Korea it's the vice versa. And now that the government has nukes, their regime could survive for a very long time, as no outside country would use military force against them. The only hope is change from within, maybe in some distant future there will be a less oppressive leader and the people will have a chance to become stronger.

As long as the regime is able to keep the population terrified, they will be able to enslave them. But at one point, the threshold of tolerance will snap and there will be a mass uprising. And this has happened in other countries as well (Lithuania, Poland.etc). And in all probability, Kim Jong Un will face the fate of other dictators, such as Saddam Hussain, Muammar Gaddafi and Nicolae Ceaușescu. Even in Cuba and Venezuela, now the population is rioting against the communist regimes. You can't rule with muscle-power forever.

Thanks OP for these threads. While the description of situations in NK may seem hard to believe for some of the pragmatists, I am quite sure that a set of leaders who are capable of planning murder of brothers and blowing people with artillery, can very well create these conditions.

Quite a few apologists of communism in this thread too. Maybe it is just a reflection of the CCP puppets going around on the forum these days and just an overall reflection of the Chinese methods of  trying to control narratives through seemingly honest opinions. Yet, anyone with half a brain will realize that Communism can NEVER work. Like NEVER.

By its very definition, communism means that the "means of production and property" is owned collectively, in this case, by the state. And who is the state? There is no "collective entity" called the state. It is a bunch of individuals who rise to the top in the name of equality. Whether its Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao or Sun; they all are individuals or groups of people who become "The state".

This is what leads to the ultimate failure as there are no checks and balances on power that exist in capitalist democracies; free markets, free press, free judiciary. Sure those are not perfect. Yet, that just means they are involved in a constant struggle of distributing resources between unequal participants. Nothing of that sort is possible in Communism.

Communism is fine in theory but impossible to practice at scale.

Yes, that's why I said in a previous post, that in reality, many times what we call capitalism is actually social democracy, a mixture of free enterprise and individual initiative with regulations and redistribution. I find it very funny to hear people complaining about capitalism in countries where the public sector accounts for more than 50% of GDP, they have high taxes, public health care (which I am in favor of), etc.

Quite capitalist is a country like Singapore, but in general it is not the European countries.

As such, there are no pure capitalist countries in the world (maybe with the exception of a few island nations where there is no income tax). Even in countries like the United States, the marginal tax rates can be as high as 60%. The government is taking away money from successful people and then distributing a part of it among the unproductive population. Now this is what socialism does. The difference here is that the government is not taking away 100% as in the case with socialist countries, but only 20% to 60% depending on your income tax slab.

basically both are like aiming for social, where they help each other. in a capitalist country, someone is allowed to work so that they have a lot of income until finally the state collects taxes to equalize development which will later be for the equality of society. and for a socialist country, this is purely in the hands of the government, so that citizens' lives are equal

I followed Yeonmi Park before she was on JRE. She has a youtube channel with a lot of content. She was human trafficked from north korea into south korea and sold as a sex slave for $300 when she was around 13 years old. I think she's 27 now. Eventually she made her way to the US and was granted amnesty. She has a book published about it on amazon.

In Order to Live: A North Korean Girl's Journey to Freedom
by Yeonmi Park
https://www.amazon.com/Order-Live-Korean-Journey-Freedom/dp/014310974X/

There are many other defectors from north korea, their stories are always worth reading.

Since you gave an example of fox news, I am going to assume that you are an American? Or at least know the media in the American system hence know a bit about American politics (these days who doesn't lol)? So in that case, communism in a tyrannical system is where the leaders like how NK is managed right now lives the 1% amazing life, he has that right as the leader, and 99% crush beneath him, and even eating rats to survive, or Venezuela losing weight all together as well just because their leader cost them a lot of money and now they can't even afford food and there isn't even food in the markets.

However, do you really believe that management is still better in a capitalist liberal system? I believe that paying a thousand dollars ON TOP OF your insurance just because you had a little cough is not a good system neither.

I still believe that there is a real "dream" equality in the world, it could be right, it could be left, it could be any ideology I do not care, call it "the middle"? That sounds good, but its where people could be billionaires like Jeff Bezos, but nobody starves to death or pays thousands for insulin, there is definitely a middle-ground humanity could find.

Communism / Socialism will NEVER work!
We don't need proof to conclude this, just look at countries that have adopted communism/socialism around the world, Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea are some examples.

A question I always ask people who say that communism/socialism can work and that it is superior to capitalism.

"If communism/socialism were so good, why do Venezuelans or Cubans flee their countries and go to the US or another South American country? And why doesn't the opposite happen?"

The other question is: "Tell me some countries around the world that communism/socialism was successful?"

To this day, no one has been able to answer this question for me, because it is very obvious and no sympathizer of communism/socialism wants to accept it!

It's actually not about the people snapping, it's about the government becoming weaker and allowing them. The North Korean regime exists for more than 70 years without any slightest attempts of insurrection. You can't organize any resistance when one part of the population is scared and the other is devoted to the government, and everything is so tightly controlled that the flow of information/money/weapons is impossible. North Korea is just a large high security prison, and for it to collapse it would need to become a low security prison first.

Medicare system in the United States is rotten and that is not due to the capitalist system. If that was the case, then how come Medicare costs in neighboring Canada are 10 times lower than the rates for the same in the United States? They are also having the same system there. Capitalism can be managed in a way where exploitation doesn't occur. Take the case of European countries such as Germany and Switzerland. They are perfect examples of capitalism. United States is an example where the system is dominated by a few corporations. And corporate-capitalism is different from normal capitalism.

This is the problem with a high pride leader who controls his country without the regard for human life. This is the problem with a leader who's only priority is his own wealth rather than his countries development. The problem with this kind of government like NK is that most of its constituents is in support with that regime and neglect the rotten system. They do not want to fight and accepts the superiority and abuses that they are facing. Unlike any other country who would like to break the chain of poverty and oppression willing to die for the next generation. Extremely brainwashed by NK government.

This is true because I don’t see a single really Souialist or Communist state right now. After all, socialism and communism in theory are completely different from what we see in practice in states that call themselves socialist or communist. The main slogan of communism is from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs. That is, a communist society presupposes a complete abundance of material wealth. If this is not the case, then such states cannot be considered communist. North Korea is a purely totalitarian state and has nothing to do with socialism or communism.

LOL.. don't you get tired of defending communism?

I am 100% sure that you are not from a country where communists were in power. Because I haven't seen anyone from former communist states such as Russia or Ukraine defending them. If "real communism" is different, then please enlighten us and show us an example of such a country. Communism is a bunch of impractical and obsolete ideas, which can never work in real life scenario. Dozens of countries have tried the communist/socialist system, and not even one has been successful. Some of them, like China shifted to capitalism before it was too late.

There is a general misunderstanding about Capitalism and Socialism governments. The fact that a state provides some free services does not make it communist. I am afraid that the precise definition is quite fluid and there is a grayscale of possibilities.

Particularly, there is a tendency to confuse economic liberalism and the Austrian School of though with Capitalism. I my very humble view, that is only a version of Capitalism. The basis are right to individual property, free enterprise and the possibility of  investing for a return. This has nothing to do with the liberal versions that propose a thin state or zero intervention.

For me, there is clear proof that those "thin states" cannot provide safety, continuity and opportunity for all, just as communism cannot either.




Yes, just as Capitalism sell the paradise of material goods, the "opportunity for all", the self-made millionaire dream... Is there a system that is not promising utopia?



And that may happen only thanks to your marvellous version of Capitalism has failed millions of people. on the promise of milk and honey. You do not get the moral high -ground on undelivered promises. N



That is not true. Imperialism  and expansionism of the capitalist countries has killed more people that any other ideology. Kaiser´s Germany was not communist, Hitler was certainly not Socialist and  Japan was not communist nor the US was socialist when dropping Fat Boy on Japan, nor UK was communist when setting Hamburg in fire. I do not mean to make a  competition of this, and I am certainly not a supporter of tyranny in any manifestation,  but I am tired of  propaganda and the  attempts to compare and elected government with authoritarian  despots.

I have never said that. But I tell you what I usually say when they talk to me about "free" services. They are never "free". You don't pay for them on a bill, but you pay for them via taxes.

In the case of health care, I think it is right that it should be universal (not free), because demand is inelastic: you can decide not to buy clothes or mend old clothes or not to go out so much, etc., but if you have a heart attack you have to be treated now. The demand side is totally different in health issues.


And we will agree that the best system is a mixture of both: free enterprise, respect for private property, etc., combined with some redistribution. Which from what I understand you are more in favor of taxation and redistribution than I am (I would say there are a few forumers of a similar opinion to yours, such as Cnut237 and suchmoon).


I would say that they are essentially different because the history of mankind shows the opposite: the great states that are dedicated to redistribution arose precisely from "thin" states that created wealth. If you put a huge state where there is no wealth created, you are not going to have anything to redistribute. States are extremely inefficient at creating wealth. I would say that the more regulations and taxes they put in place, the more efficient they are at destroying it.

Also read somewhere that starvation in NK is so bad people use drugs to alleviate the hunger and redirect it to something else. Just mind-boggling to think about how things are going in NK when their supreme leader gets fatter and fatter by the day. I think we're all well aware of the shoot-to-kill order if you ever did try to cross the border which sucks. Communism never works in practical applications no matter how good it sounds on paper. Very well said, also saw these apologists who kept on defending Communism like it was God's gift to these countries. I would also agree with your explanation as to why Communism only works on paper and never when it's practically applied. The fact that they don't have a solid concept of what a "state" is in countries where it is implemented makes communism a very dangerous ideology to follow through.

I was more in line to people saying socialist and communist to anything that implies redistribution, perhaps not your case. About how much is redistributed, who pays for it and what is "included" (obviously paid with taxes, I did not even think that had to be said), that would be where I would focus a discussion and the adjustments that different economic cycles may require.

RE thin states, please notice that I said they cannot provide safety and stability on a continuous basis. If you look at an initially very thin state (US) a few of the first things that had to be setup was the ability to collect taxes, the centralisation of money emission, a pan-state law,... It was simply impossible to run a country if you had to ask all the states for permission and money to, for example, pay an army to defend it.

State structures cost money and, I believe that there is enough proof of these being required.

Just one simple question. Which group of countries are the richest in this planet? Those which follow capitalism, or those who follow socialism? I checked the list, and found that there was no socialist nation in the top-100. Obviously not everyone may benefit out of capitalism. You need to work hard, if you want to earn money. It is the socialist thinking, that you get money for doing nothing. Those who don't want to work in capitalist economies will remain poor and then they will complain that capitalism has failed them.

BTW, let me ask you in which country you are residing in. A capitalist nation, or a socialist one? If you were living in a socialist country, then I am sure that you won't be even having the means to type this post.

Yes, it is happening right now. The stories that come out of North Korea are horrific. The Nazis ran concentration camps for a few years in the 40s. North Korea have been running them for over half a century. They have the worst human rights record on the planet. Have a read of "Escape From Camp 14" by Shin Dong-hyuk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Dong-hyuk).


Why would we forget, though? You do seem to be running a bit of a one person crusade against communism... but there's not really anyone to argue against, or at least no-one with a compelling counter-argument. Communism is terrible, has failed again and again, and is drenched in blood. Stalin and Mao, for example, are two of the biggest mass-murderers in history.

And yet... communism isn't really the problem. In theory, it's a reasonable and equitable — if, for me, unpalatable — idea. The problem is that it is so easy to abuse. Autocracy, however it manifests, whether in a state that is nominally communist or not, is the worst system of government. Any system that cannot, or will not, be held accountable for its own actions is invalid and unrepresentative.

Laissez-faire 'ancap' capitalism is terrible for the same reason, so so easy to exploit.

The best system of government is one where opposition is not just possible, but encouraged, and indeed a vital part of the structure. I am happy to live in a capitalist democracy. As I've said before, it's an oxymoron, but that is its power. There are of course problems, corruption, cronyism, and inevitably a strong tendency towards plutocracy... but still, it's better than the alternatives. And I always vote for a left-wing party, because I see this as providing a more potent countervailing force to the capitalist tendency towards self-enrichment at the expense of others*. Voting for a right-wing party in a capitalist state is a vote to encourage inequality of opportunity and to further entrench the elite.




* Please don't mention that damned cake. Unrestrained capitalism is a 'will to money', and is exploitative by nature. The question of whether or not potential wealth is infinite (it's not), sidesteps the issue.

Well, I'll tell you: I've spent my life surrounded by leftists, and they don't say this:


I don't hear things like that, and instead I usually hear that in Cuba and Venezuela everything is wonderful, while they complain about capitalism and order any kind of crap through Amazon Prime from their Iphone.

Ha. I suppose I'm a different kind of leftist, then. A lot of ideologies tend to be absolute and idealised; the difficulty is applying them to the real world, which is of course messier and full of all kinds of unknown variables and people who will try to exploit whatever system of government is put in front of them. We're probably all guilty to an extent of trying to argue in favour of our preferred theoretical solutions, even when they are unworkable in practice.

I think that the first example below is obscene, and should not be permitted, because the second example exists at the same time. But I'm happy to concede that capitalism (held in check by a democratically elected government) is the best (by which I mean, least bad) system we have.

But we have talked about this before. It's not as easy as I take from the rich and the poor will suddenly have clean water. For starters, I don't think UNICEF is 100% objective because they make a living from it but assuming that's true, the redistribution you propose, which is taking gold from the yacht and spending it to invest in clean water infrastructure is never carried out like that in practice.
 
Taking away moderate amounts is theoretically Ok but if you take too much away from those who get rich, in the end you end up disincentivizing and less and less wealth is created and you have less and less to redistribute.

Then, we have to think that for this money to reach poor people, there is a lot of political spending, bureaucracy, personnel, and if we take into account that where water is needed is in third world countries where politicians are usually even more trash than in developed countries, it seems to me that even if you confiscate the whole yacht they are going to build few infrastructures. 

It is not a matter of supporters, but of upholding an outdated social and cultural core. Any political party also develops its ideology to unite certain groups under its auspices. Every community, from LGBT people to the Ku Klux Klan, strives for integrity, creating norms and values ​​that help separate the self from others.

Have you ever wondered why some social groups consider themselves to be better than others? And any political struggle comes down to the manifestation of intolerance, while trying to revive outdated models of power .. Indeed, in fact, there is a struggle between the political ethics of our countries, and ordinary people are closely intertwined with each other. I find the explanation for this in the fact that before 1991, politicians were more or less in control of the situation. And after the collapse of the military-political blocs, we got more and more opportunities to meet face to face with those who did not belong to our circle.

Yes, of course it's not that simple. I'm in favour of truly progressive taxation, a wealth (rather than merely income) tax, and a UBI. But I don't want to derail the thread by getting into a discussion about the nuances of all of these things. I'm not suggesting we break up the yacht, sell the parts, and demand that the money be spent directly on sanitation. I think that kind of approach is overly prescriptive.


True. Although I suspect you and I would draw the line of 'too much' in quite different positions. There is a lot of 'crying wolf' on this, too. Threaten to raise corporation tax by 0.5% and there will be a cacophany of howling from global giants that they can't possibly survive and will have to leave the country in search of a new business-friendly home abroad.  ::)


Yes, agreed. As someone with a keen interest in data, I'm aware of the inefficiencies of for example many charities. However the charity evaluator GiveWell (https://www.givewell.org/charities/top-charities), which is I think extremely good, has shown that one of the most efficient ways to help the global poor is simply by giving them cash without it having to run through a network of possibly corrupt intermediaries (GiveDirectly (https://www.givedirectly.org/) is consistently ranked as one of their top charities). I'm not sure if you give to charities, but you may also be interested in having a look at Deki (https://deki.org.uk/) which helps to a small extent to reduce inequality of opportunity by providing small interest-free loans to budding entrepreneurs in poorer nations. But I think I may be derailing the thread again, so I'll stop there.

Normally when I have created threads, if they have reached page 5 I have locked them because the conversations tend to go from being a little off-topic to being completely off topic and in other cases redundant.

In the case of charities, I think it is a bit related because we are talking about communism/redistribution, and in an ideal world, as paxmao pointed out I think in another thread, nobody would have to donate to charities, but everything would be perfectly redistributed. However, we are not going to see that unless the decisions are made by an AI and I think not even that.

You won't remember but I told you that I do donate to a charity, just when you asked me last time, precisely that week I also made a donation in person to a person in need. I donate to that charity of my choice because in a way I trust that the money is being used well, although you can never trust 100%. At the moment I don't plan to donate elsewhere but the one you point out seems to be a good one.

Those who lived the horror of communism are fine with a capitalist society with all its flaws, so they can finally stay away from the bloody leftist policies that led to the hell they were used to, while those who lived the prosperity of capitalism seem to not be thankful for what they had, so they keep desiring the romantic communist utopia with the promise this time it will be different.

The situations you were exposed during your childhood and adolescence will reflect on your behavior and your perspective regards the world in the present time. Imperfections of capitalist societies lead many people, especially in the western society, to think the world promised by the left wing is the solution. However, doesn't matter how bad your capitalist country is right now, it could be much worse if it were under a communist regime, or maybe it's already transmuting into a communist regime and you haven't even noticed yet.

Communist ideology can never thrive, because it's the ideology of the envious and the frustrated that have to abuse power and other people to feed his ego. Actually it's really similar to Hitler, no? Maybe that is because his ideology and the communist one had their origins in the same roots...

Nagorno-Karabakh (NK) is another "excellent" example of how Russia is building "enclaves" around itself for regional destabilization, using any methods and means. Likewise, the conflict in NK is a classic composition provoked and played out by the Kremlin "comrades". And if not for Turkey's help to Azerbaijan, this abscess would have hindered the development of both Azerbaijan and Armenia for many decades. And if you carefully watched the development of the liberation operation of Azerbaijan, then you could not help but notice, at the initial stages, the hyperactivity of Russia, in an attempt to make efforts and leave this "cloaca" in the state in which it was in order to further manipulate the region. But, as soon as Russia realized that Turkey is on the side of Azerbaijan, and Turkey will not "express deep concern," in case of failure), Russia immediately understood where its place was, and the whine crawled to the side ...

If we go back to the history of the last 30 years, then Russia has produced a lot of cesspools such as NK: in Moldova - the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic (local separatists with the support of the Russian army, scenario, management and participation of the Kremlin), in Georgia - Abkhazia (local separatists with the support of army of the Russian Federation, began with a provocation from the Russian Federation), Ukraine - Donetsk People's Republic and Lugansk People's Republic - local separatists, scenario, support, funding, management and direct participation of the Russian army). And everywhere that the hand of Russia touched, from the flourishing regions there were medieval cesspools, with no prospects, and complete degradation ... Real sectors of the economy, industry were destroyed and destroyed, more or less valuable enterprises were exported to Russia! For example, from Ukraine to the territory of the Russian Federation, from the temporarily occupied territory in the east, in 2014-2017 more than 35 enterprises and factories were exported !!!

I would like to state that you did not mention one country that followed real communism because real communism is really different than the countries you mentioned because you are mixing socialism which is not pure communism and authoritarian regime like they have in North Korea.

Coming to Cuba, under Fidel Castro it was a much better rule and they focused on education and at one point the literacy rates were much higher than some of the developed countries and their health care system was great and lastly i am coming from a state which is ruled by Communist Party of India (Marxist) and the development is evident as our state is usually rated number one in terms of education and other social economic benchmarks.

Since you are talking about communism, Now coming to New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern is the prime minister from Labour Party which is a left wing political party. If you have any debates regarding this we can continue  ;).

LOL... It is funny that now Communists believe that Jacinda Ardern is one of them. The New Zealand Labour Party is "left-wing" in a relative sense. By no means they are closer to the communists. They support capitalism and have taken strong stance against communist/socialist policies. If you classify parties such as the NZLP as communist, then even the United States can be said to be ruled by the Communist Party. Because Joe Biden is from the Democrat party, which is far more left-wing when compared to the NZLP. Don't try to paint successful capitalist economies as success of communism. "Real" communist countries are Cuba, Venezuela, North Korea.etc.

When you talk about "the achievements of Cuba under Fidel", do not be too lazy to read about what happened BEFORE Fidel! Most of what you consider to be Fidel's "merit" - it was all built and implemented before him! There is a lot of information about "before the Fidel period", do not be too lazy to read, you will be very surprised - there is about medicine and education, and a lot more about what was then destroyed or degraded to a primitive level.

A short excerpt:
“And finally, the economic indicators that speak for themselves: from 1950 to 1958, Cuba ranked second or third in Ibero-America in terms of income of the population. Despite its small area and population of only 6.5 million, in 1958 Cuba was far ahead of Latin American countries, as well as Spain, Portugal and Italy, ranking 29th among all world economies.

According to the International Labor Organization, in 1958, the unemployment rate in Cuba was one of the lowest in the world - 7.07 percent. Cuba ranked eighth in the world in terms of the average wage of workers (after the United States, Canada, Switzerland, Sweden, New Zealand, Norway and Denmark), and in terms of peasant income - seventh. "

The deadlock part has given me a different perspective to be honest, if you look at it, you can actually see that you're right, we always compete and it's always been a survival of the fittest ever since the dawn of time. I don't necessarily agree that men are inherently evil, probably a mixture of parenting, morals introduced and attitude could influence them but I don't think that no one is born a bad seed.