Bitcoin Forum

Ledger Nano S hardware wallet was first released in 2016 and it's arguably still one of the most popular hardware wallets in the world with millions of sold devices.

I will post here my reasons why I wouldn't buy this device again, and I will post ways how you can try to fix some of the Nano S problems (if possible).

1. Closed Source
Ledger Nano S is closed source device with no intention to change that in future, that means it could potentially store hidden backdoor for years.
Firmware updates are often causing more problems and only few closed circle of people is working on it.
There are even cases when updating devices with new firmware simply breaks the device and makes it unusable.

How to Fix this? Switch to other open source hardware wallets, or ask Ledger developers to release their code.

https://i.imgur.com/ZRmfH6s.jpg

2. Small Memory
Memory for Ledger Nano S is very small with around 144kb 138Kb, but even bigger problem is that size of apps for coins is growing all the time and memory stays the same.
With recent 2.0.0 update size of Bitcoin app has grown from 40kb to 64kb, that means you can support less coins on your device at the same time.
Developers now claim this is only temporary but I don't believe them because it's getting bigger constantly.

How to Fix this? Uninstall apps that you don't use on regular basis, or use only Bitcoin app.

https://i.ibb.co/BK4rktT/pic368.jpg

3. Display dies after few years
Ledger Nano S is using cheap OLED display that will die or start to dim usually after few years even if you don't use device so often.

How to Fix this? Easiest way to prolong life of your display is to change and reduce brightness (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360017638473-Change-display-brightness-?docs=true) in settings and keep device in dry place.
If you already have faulty display you can order new cheap display (https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/0-91Inch-Oled-128x32-Driver-Ic_1600235094273.html?spm=a2747.manage.0.0.2f1771d2HrG9QW) online or locally and replace it yourself following this video instructions (https://youtu.be/dSwmk4GW4GI).
Make sure you are purchasing this display with 12 PIN connector.
Some people are even using smartphone cameras  (https://youtu.be/AqEa1Wvt8PU) to see characters on dim display.
Last and most expensive option is to buy new hardware wallet and import your seed words.

https://i.imgur.com/zeQ2GP8.jpg

4. Cheap plastic body
Nano S is made from cheap plastic that gets broken easily if you hold it stronger when removing USB cable.

How to Fix this? You can try to superglue the plastic, but you should be extra careful when handling and removing cable.
Maybe it's possible to make custom 3d printed case or order it online from other people, but I couldn't find one myself.

https://i.imgur.com/lFTyTLG.jpg

5. Nano S could soon be discontinued
Ledger have a history of defunct and discontinued products (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010500620-Discontinued-products?docs=true) like Ledger HW.1, Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue.
One more thing is that Nano S is using old Micro-USB to USB Type-A cable, and most of devices switched to USB Type-C.

How to Fix this? Simple. Don't buy Ledger Nano S.

https://i.imgur.com/7FYcGN9.jpg

6. Bad Multisig support
Ledger is probably one of the worst hardware wallets you can use for your multisig setup.
You can't display own or cosigner xpub on demand, it's not showing Electrum Zpub and Ypub formats, xpubs are not registered inside the device, and ledger is not
showing multisig receive address for verification, it always assumes that cosigners are trustworthy.

How to Fix this? Use other wallets for your multisig setup and avoid Ledger and Trezor for this purpose.

7. Leaking personal information
Ledger leaked personal information for millions of their customers leaking everything including full names, address and phone numbers.

How to Fix this? Buy in local reseller or use PO boxes when ordering your device.

8. Bad support
Ledger has one of the worst support I ever saw, that is very slow and they probably have small stuff so there is really no fix for this, except if they hire more people.

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Price of Nano S is currently around 60€ (+shipping) and that is not a lot today but considering all I mentioned above I don't think it's worth the money.
It's still a better option that Nano X epic fail with battery issues, and probably better option than keeping coins on hot wallet.

Are there any alternative hardware wallets? Yes there are, but you need to pay a bit more money and get better quality and open source device.
Do your own research.

I also have Nano S and, while I knew from start that's closed source and the memory is small. Meanwhile the cheap plastic is the smallest problem, while the leaking of personal info and the awful handling of that situation made me kinda stop recommending Nano S.
The bad multisig was something I've read between the lines, but didn't give much attention - I always thought that if I want to multisig then I'll buy one more HW, from another maker (probably Trezor) and see then what is possible and that's not.

So now my bigger concern is the screen issue I didn't know about (hence thank you for bringing it into discussion!).
How many years is the average for "normal use" after which it's expected to become difficult to read?

People who purchased Nano S devices in 2017 are starting to see first issues now, that means cheap display is probably meant to last 4 years more or less.
Ledger warranty is two years and they are not responsible for your device after that, but like I said you can fix this ordering new display for $2 or $3, don't waste any money purchasing new ledger.
However, there could be an issue with their new closed source firmware breaking devices, like this guy reported few days ago (post is being downvoted on purpose):
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/qqsyov/ledger_nano_s_not_working/

I don't want to transform possible coincidences into conspiracies. While it may be possible, a much easier explanation is that those components are cheap and made so. It's the current consumerism era's fault.
However, it's their loss. While I am not sure I'd be capable of changing that display myself, I am pretty sure that I will no order HW from them again.

I'll keep in mind next time I power the Nano S to reduce the brightness. Thanks.

It seems that their latest firmware has also increased in size. I read a bunch of old reports on Reddit that they had 156 to 160 kb of free storage for the apps.

In addition to that, there's one user who's saying he/she got a crack when it wasn't in use:

• Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/cdkdss/barely_used_ledger_nano_s_has_cracked_plastic/
  Since then, I have plugged it into my pc maybe 5 times, and I am an extremely careful person. Today I saw that a crack has developed in its plastic case. I don't know how this is even possible (last time I used it it was ok), but it seems to me the crack has appeared in a stress concentration location (from inner corner to outer corner), and ledger's materials have never been its strongest point (just take a look at the cheap usb cable).

---

They're also a bunch of liars ^{[e.g. here's one case (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5358741.msg58242079#msg58242079)]} who love to give false hopes.

I totally agree ^{[it's a shame, they could've easily fixed the first half of issues from your list, but for some reason, they've done nothing so far]}.

I guess I could soon be affected then. I think I got mine somewhere in 2017/2018. So far I haven't noticed any screen issues or problems with the plastic cover. I am generally not a person who breaks electronic devices because he drops them or carries them in his pockets, so I don't think those types of things will affect me.

I did update the Bitcoin and Ethereum apps yesterday and was surprised when I noticed that the usual "update all" button was greyed out. Couldn't figure out why until I noticed the difference in the app sizes. I had to uninstall a third app I had to update those of BTC and ETH.   

Yeah, developers claim they rewritten apps and everything else from scratch to enable reverse compatibility for future updates.
If you ask me this is a poor man choice for a hardware wallet and classical used car sellers scheme.

Plastic could happen with plastic because of cold/hot temperatures and depends how long he used ledger before the crack happened.

They never announce anything when size increases and they leave it for customers to get ''surprised'' and first post about that issue.
It's totally misleading that Ledger writes on their websites how Nano S is supporting 1100+ coins and app to 6 apps installed on your device, but in reality you can't install more than 2 or 3 apps.

It always depends on the combination of apps. If you have one standalone app like Bitcoin with multiple dependent apps, it should work. The storage capacity of the Nano S is 144 KB.

An example:
Standalone BTC app - 64 KB.
Dependent apps - DOGE, BCH, Dash, Digibyte, Zcash, BTC Gold, etc. are all 2 KB each.
That makes a total of 76 KB with 7 apps installed.

But yeah if you are going to use multiple standalone apps like BTC, ETH, TRON, Stellar, etc., you aren't going to be able to install more than 2, maybe 3 if you are lucky.

I still have a Nano S in my drawer but I would rather not use it anymore.  I currently only use it for certain accounts.  Makes me happy to see you people moving away from closed-source hardware and from a questionable company.

On a positive note, my device has not had any kind of hardware failures yet and I did use it heavily for years straight.  I reduced my brightness from the start though, so keep that in mind.  However, there is a negative side to it.  My Nano S has been moving awfully slow after I updated it to one of the latest firmware versions.  I can not remember precisely, but I think it was around six months ago.  I used to navigate really fast through the menu before, but they seem to have added a button input delay which makes the Passphrase setup a pain.  Takes years now to fill in the Passphrase, while before I could have done it within a minute or less.

The storage capacity is one more big minus.  I constantly had to go through Ledger Live every time I needed to work with more than 3 coins.  Deleting and re-installing apps every time is just an unnecessary waste of time that could have been avoided from the start.  I also do not like that I have to go through Ledger Live every time I need to manage Ledger's apps.  There is no Tor option, Ledger Live is at least partially closed source as far as I am concerned and so on.  Not worth it.

The customer data leak put an end to any of my potential future Ledger orders.  That was a clear sign for me that they are not trustworthy and I shall steer away from their products.  Trezor's or airgapped computer for the win.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

That is because all those 2 KB apps are just clones and forks of original coins, for example all you mentioned are forks of Bitcoin, and ETC, BNB and other crap are forks of Ethereum.
My point is that their main Nano S selling point for supporting bunch of altcoins does not stand anymore, until they fix this or upgrade with some new device and I think they are working on something like that.

It does take time to import passphrase but I never before heard someone having this issue with ledger slow speed, and installing latest firmware could fix your issue, but there is always a chance this could break your device and unusable.

I think that their model with separate apps for each coin also have some security flaws compared to other hardware wallets, and it's just a waiting ticking bomb.
More apps you have it creates more problems and you can't really have Bitcoin only firmware, even if you don't install any other app they still exist in background.

That would be enough for anyone to stop buying their devices, but I guess people only learn slow and the hard way.

Adding Bluetooth to the new device, which leaves an open door for potential attacks, and not learning their storage size mistake makes me presume their up and coming product will only get worse.  A slick design is useless when there are new, more "modern" approaches you come with that are actually anything but secure.

Also, their main point of supporting bunch of altcoins turned into their main point of supporting all sorts of shitcoins.  They seem to care more about that than adding more functionality to their Live app for instance.  The Tor and Full Node features have been highly requested by the community to no avail.

This is interesting, I have looked this issue up before but found nothing about it.  I just thought it was only me who really cared.  If you go to the Passphrase option, can you switch between letters instantly as in there is no delay between the button pushes?  I do not seem to be able to switch between more than one to two characters per second.

That is for sure.  It is an unnecessary headache Trezor found a great solution for.  Unfortunately however, as far as rumors go, I heard Trezor's upcoming product will also feature a closed source chip which makes me wonder how many alternatives we will really be left with in the future.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

I don't know because I never used passphrase option in ledger wallet and I don't like it's connection with pin code.

I think that your information is wrong, Trezor won't release their new hardware wallet device before end of 2022, and they are working on their own Open Source secure element with Tropic Square (https://tropicsquare.com/).
In latest interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNPbixkcnsA) they said that they will sell this secure elements to anyone who want's to buy them, including other hardware wallet manufacturers.

They seem to have added a deliberate delay between button presses. It's noticeable also when you first connect the device and enter your PIN to unlock it. I remember reading about something like that in the past, but I can't find any source now to confirm it and I don't remember what reasons they gave for doing that. Have you checked in the settings menu if there is an option to speed it up? I will have to generate a new BTC addy later today so I will take a look myself and report back if I find something.  

Yeah, I know that. I was just trying to show that it is still possible to have multiple apps installed if they are dependent on the stand-alone app. Dependent (Ledger's term) is nothing else than a fork.

I agree, but I don't think there is much that they can do with the Nano S and its limited storage capacity. New updates take up more and more space and the Nano S looks like an old Celeron processor that is getting beaten by newer, faster, and better competitors.  

I didn't like the Bluetooth feature the moment I read about it. I look at it the same way as you do. A potential attack vector for the future. But what issues do you have with the storage space of the Nano X. Compared to the Nano S, it's been increased significantly!

His information is not completely wrong. The secure element is not going to be 100% open source.

In Trezor's own words:

https://blog.trezor.io/introducing-tropic-square-why-transparency-matters-a895dab12dd3
As open-source as possible means that certain elements of it will be kept a secret.

Please don't make your own definition for open source  :)
Open source hardware definition is clear, they are transparent and there is no some ''secret elements'' in them, oh and you are quoting some old blog post from 2020,
and new information I heard confirmed what I am saying, but let's wait the end of 2022 and see, if we are alive and well by them.
You can't change a license just a little bit, add common clause and still call it open source like Coldcard wallet is doing with their device, and if something like this happens with Trezor I will be the first to call them out.

https://opensource.com/resources/what-open-hardware

I wasn't. I am just interpreting their own words "as open source as possible". According to my understanding of English, that doesn't mean fully/completely/100% open-source. I could be wrong, but that's what they said. The "as possible" part could mean anything. As much as the manufacturing company allows, as much as some license agreement (if there is one) allows, or something else. 

I couldn't find anything newer about the topic. Can you post a link so I can check newer and updated claims?

You said phrase ''certain elements of it will be kept a secret'' and that was not mentioned anywhere by trezor developers or me, so it was your own interpretation ;)
I suggest first reading the link with definition and comparison with closed hardware to learn what open source hardware really means.
I posted a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNPbixkcnsA) in one of my previous posts in this this thread and I am following all trezor news regarding this subject.

PS
Now let's get back to topic of ledger nano s.

Yes, it was my interpretation of what they said and the word combinations they used. It would really be cool if the chip ends up being completely open-source and I hope it will for the future of the entire hardware wallet industry.

And thanks for the video. It's a rather long one so I will watch it in episodes.

New bug crap issue from Ledger with latest device updates is that Fido U2Fapp can't be installed on ledger Nano, and what is even worse is that update removes Fido U2F app itself!
Multiple customers are reporting this issue on ledger reddit page, and developers are currently investigating this issue.
Imagine you use Fido U2F on your ledger for some important log in, well you are screwed now, thanks to ledger dev team :/
If you are using Fido U2F - don't update ledger.

Can't install Fido U2F since updating my ledger Nano S.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r6y2e8/cant_install_fido_u2f_since_updating_my_ledger/

What happened to FIDO
Firmware update abd it got rid of the Fido app... I need it. How to get it back
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7tvqz/what_happened_to_fido/

Big problem with fido
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7j1h2/big_problem_with_fido/

FIDO APP NOT VISIBLE in Ledger Live 2.35.2 Nano S 2.1.0
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7gghr/fido_app_not_visible_in_ledger_live_2352_nano_s/

That's really messed up! Is there a way to check and track if they've been using different developers lately ^{[from their Github page]}?
^{- I don't know my way around GitHub.}

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It appears that the memory issue that you've described before, took another hit ^{[thanks to the latest firmware]}:

• Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r6amy0/ledger_nano_s_firmware_update_now_available/hmud2nr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
  Looks like it uses up more memory. Now I don't have enough space to install 3 particular apps simultaneously, which was how I had it set up before the update.
  
• Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r6amy0/ledger_nano_s_firmware_update_now_available/hmxa5xb/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
  It really is beyond annoying. It is only possible to have 2 non-dependent apps on the device at one time now.
  
  @Ledger please try to reduce the firmware size - the 2.0 and 2.1 updates have severely degraded the utility of the device for most users.
• Quote from: https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r6amy0/ledger_nano_s_firmware_update_now_available/hmxx8t3/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3
  My nano S now has the space to hold a grand total of 1 app.

I don't know, you can ask them and find list of contributors on every page in github but only for ledger live app, and their developers have multiple jobs so they are also reddit moderators  :D

OMG I missed that, it's like they are slowly cooking the frog and reducing space for apps.
Maybe this is their way to stop production of nano s device and force everyone to switch to nano x or some other new device they release.
They can always blame small memory etc.

From what I understand, there are 51 contributors. With some patience and playing around with selection on the first chart, this can be found out.
https://github.com/LedgerHQ/ledger-live-desktop/graphs/contributors

But I think that it's irrelevant, since as you also said, the problem is most probably the (lack of) memory.
Before my last update, my Nano S had Bitcoin, Ethereum, Fido U2F and 10k free space. After updating firmware and apps I have only 6k free space. 4k can easily make the difference.


Can't an user remove another coin's app, install Fido and use it? Or some related data is lost? (I've installed Fido U2F not long ago for tests and didn't get to do any.)

For real ^{[I didn't know that]}? :D

@dkbit98: That's a valid point and judging by NeuroticFish's comment and the rate that it has increased recently, I wouldn't be surprised to see them end its support in a year or two!
^{- Even though it's quite normal for tech companies to ditch their older products while replacing them with new/better products, the manner in which they seem to be doing it is unethical.}

Thank you for providing that link ^{[hopefully, I'd be able to easily spot the differences]} :)

The one I mentioned it's a separate issue... From what I've understood, the Fido U2F app it's not showing up on the Ledger Live.

That is incorrect. I've made a screenshot, search does return Fido U2F.

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/14/blobdeed25892d8d7d04.png

The thing is that after the firmware update there are no apps at all and it asks if you want to reinstall them. If there's no space for them, some may not be reinstalled and I don't know if it returns a proper error message or not.


I would be even more disappointed if this would happen. They still sell Nano S, you know...
And even if the firmware won't be updated (except very big security problems), the apps still evolve. It doesn't matter if it'll be only Bitcoin app that fits, I'd expect that after a while, but no actually end of support, not yet. Maybe 2-3 years after they stop selling it...

I think all points are somewhat valid , but none of them are a deal breaker to me.

Certainly closed source software is the worst of those points, but not all their software is closed software.  I think o ly ledger live is closed source  but the firmware isn't . They do not have a malicious code in their software,  they are not stealing people's money and actually it is one of the most secure ways of store btc. I trust much more ledger live than some random one  source software  .

Being open means it is auditable,  not that it was audited

Memory is not a problem at all. Install and Uninstall those apps take literally 10 seconds and you wouldn't be doing that so frequently (if you are, you are doing something wrong)

About LED , plastic, etc, that is what you pay for. Ledger nano is extremely cheap.

What really think is important in a hardware wallet is the capability to generate private keys in a safe environment.  Once the keys are generated and I have properly backed them up I don't need ledger live support or a beautiful plastic anymore.

I can just use that seed in any software and recove may btc,  which I know are safe, even after 10 years. Ledger nano can do that nearly flawlessly,  and I am pretty satisfied because it fits my needs.

I know other people may have other needs.

I think it already took a hit before this firmware was released because several standalone crypto apps increased in size significantly. Bitcoin's app is a particularly big one.

Of course, that's just logical. You can't fit more apps than it's theoretically possible.

If you bought a hardware wallet with limited storage capabilities, why complain about the wallet's limited storage capabilities? The software will of course get bigger in size with new features, fixes, and improvements. How can you expect that won't reduce the available space?   

Exactly. You bought a plastic hardware wallet with LED display of a very small size. Live with it or purchase one made of a stronger material and bigger screen.

---

The biggest problem with this upgrade, if it turns out to be true, would be that the Fido U2F app no longer works. NeuroticFish has already shown that he can find it amongst the installable apps. The only question now is whether or not it works. Does anyone know if there are issues if this app gets installed/reinstalled? 

Surprise, surprise... ledger nano s memory space is reduced yet again from 144kb to 138Kb, that means that ledger lied before when they said that space reduction is only temporary.
I am expecting memory to continue reducing in future.

It was not incorrect, because even ledger engineer developer/moderator confirmed that FIDO app was NOT available:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7gghr/comment/hn42yn4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Looks like this issue is fixed now, but it shows again that ledger devs are amateurs and I would not used Fido with ledger ever again.

Whoever doesn't expect that is...unrealistic.


Oh, so in the meanwhile they've put it back. Interesting. Thank you.

Of course it will. Computer code consists of lines of various instructions and actions. If you extend an app's codebase, it's only logical that it will become bigger and be made up of more characters. If you have a text file in Word, for example, on one page and you write an additional page, you can't expect that the size of the final product will be smaller or even the same as it was before. Unless they find a more efficient method to compress or shorten the code (which I doubt), the internal storage of the Nano S will continue to shrink. Those using the device can either accept that or switch to something more powerful. 

Or the reason may be different, for example, Ledger adds a backdoor or something like that. We can't check because of the hidden source code. It's hard not to be paranoid about a company that has been damaging its credibility after losing its users' data. Whatever the representatives of the company say after that, the attitude towards them will never be the same.

You have valid points, but I don't see much point to complain much about device which was released 5 years ago and never been considered as high end product.
1. Closed Source - well, you probably knew about it when you bought this wallet, nothing has changed through all these years. For some people it's not big deal. If someone discovered that Ledger is closed source only after they have bought it, it's their fault, not Ledger.
2. Small Memory. It's always been case with Ledger. Install/Uninstall is a bit inconvenient thing, but for peoplewho keep BTC mainly I think it's not an issue. But if you keep 1032 different coins/tokens, you can get Nano X with bigger memory.
3. Display dies after few years. I haven't heard about this issue before this topic and I guess it doesn't happens often. Keeping device properly can help to avoid such issue.
4. Cheap plastic body. I would like if Nano S would be rugged, but then I guess it wouldn't cost $60 and price of it would be way above $100.
5. Nano S could soon be discontinued. Well, nothing lasts forever. Same like Windows discontinue to support old versions or phone manufacturers stop giving updates to old phones. But you still can use it, same like you still can acces your crypto on old Ledger devices. I remember some guesses that Ledger amy discontinue Nano S, soon after release of Nano X, but I think 1.5 year already passed and it didn't happened.
6. Bad Multisig support. Personally I don't need this thing, but yeah, I must agree about it.
7. Leaking personal information. That's big issue, it seriously hit Ledger reputation, but because of it device itself don't become worse.
8. Bad support. I don't have much experience with Ledger support, so I can't comment much about it, but unfortunately, poor support is quite often trend in crypto business. Though, it's not excuse for Ledger.
To summarize everything, Ledger is far from being perfect, but I think it's not worth to have very big expectations about old device for $60. It's same like you don't expect that 5 year old mid range phone will work better than new flagship or Toyota Prius will be better than Tesla Model S.
Now I wouldn't buy Nano S, but 4 or 5 year ago when I bought it, it wasn't an bad option.

And that isn't any different from modern TV sets where you also start experiencing display issues once the warranty runs out. Electronic gadgets nowadays aren't created to last forever. You are a customer, and the companies want you to be just satisfied enough to purchase a second and third gadget once those you bought in the past break.

Honestly, I don't see what the fuss regarding its plastic cover is all about. I have had mine for several years and there is nothing wrong with it. I take it out when I need to perform some transactions and put it back in its nice little hiding when it's not being used. It was never meant to be a chew toy for your dog.

From a privacy perspective, this was an awful event. But when Shopify was hacked and had its data leaked, multiple businesses were affected. Any other crypto company or hardware manufacturer could have been on the list of those that got hacked. This time it was Ledger. But it's bad that it happened twice. The second leak came from their own servers and not Shopify's.

If I had to select between a Nano S and X today, I would still pick the S version. I don't need an internal memory for 1000 apps, I am not even using 10. The screen size is also not something I worry about. The address does get divided in 3 when you compare and verify it against the one that is being shown in LL or Electrum. But it really isn't that difficult to press the same button twice to display the other parts of the address.

Closed Source - Yes, it doesn't matter to users, like me, for example. Even if the code were open source, it would not change anything for me, since I am not an expert in this. I think many of the users, like me, are not technically savvy in codes.

But wouldn't you agree with me that this poses a potential threat? It cannot be ruled out that the company deliberately or unintentionally (due to access by intruders. This has already happened with Ledger) may make changes to the source code that could cause damage to users' funds. The saddest part of this may be that it may be too late until the problem is discovered.

Common users want security, but closed source doesn't inspire confidence.


Small Memory. - It is not clear to me whether it is technically difficult to increase the device's memory. The amount of memory that Ledger offers is ridiculous for 2021. 138Kb would have been acceptable in the 80s and 90s  :).


Display - It's the same here. Aren't there other more reliable options? It seemed to me that in our age of technological progress, a solution can always be found.


Cheap plastic - I can't believe that a slightly higher quality plastic will increase the price so much. But it would help users to avoid unnecessary breakdowns, but it would deprive the company of new sales. It is sad that manufacturers are trying to make a profit in all possible ways and the quality of modern technology is an example of this. The sooner the device breaks down, the faster the buyer will buy a new one. "Nothing personal just business" - this is the spirit of our time  :(

It is not clear to me why Ledger cannot create a device by eliminating these physical defects. For example, how Apple did it with the release of iPhone SE, i.e. improving iPhone 5S. It would be possible to win over buyers in this way. Instead of spending the company's budget on advertising and other nonsense, it would be better to channel these funds in the right direction, which I described above. Create a quality product and no advertising is needed.
 

Ledger device itself does not get worse, but the safety of funds for them is under threat (why was this device created?), because it creates an attack vector through the users themselves.

The pinned message on the Ledger's subreddit looks ironic after awful events https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/ck6o44/be_careful_phishing_attacks_in_progress/
Still, how can this not be in progress, after they allowed the data leak.


Bad support - To speed up the processing of your problem, you can try to write about it in the company's subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/.


Yes, I agree that the Nano S in its current form is far from perfect, but I am more inclined to conclude that it is not worth the $60.

Again, I agree with you that I would not buy a device in this form even now. Perhaps, I would pay attention to the device if the above drawbacks (including those that I missed) were eliminated.

How do you think you should draw the company's attention to these issues by posting a thread on their subreddit? And by voicing what changes in the model S the community would like to see.

Don't laugh, please.. 0:) When I read something like this I always thought it supported e.g. 1100 coins contemporaneously. LOL epic fail, when you advertise like this and the customer can only realistically use less than 10 coins at any given time... It's not like SPI flash is expensive, and it wasn't in 2017 either.

Just an example:
It's 3€ for 32MB if I understand correctly (and you order 500 units).

It's even worse situation, because on their new redesigned website ledger live app have even bigger list of supported coins to over 1800  :o

Do you think it's possible to open ledger device and replace memory with bigger memory, making it DIY ledger that will support more coins?  :D
I know that ledger nano x have bigger memory but I am not sure how big it is exactly.

I disagree. Often, during software development when you built something, it wasn't all the most perfect, efficient code. So when you maintain your software properly, instead of (as you described) just adding more and more stuff - which would be called 'bloating' the software - you should focus on improving it by simplifying things and the codebase can definitely shrink over time.

It's also a developer's duty (in my opinion) to consider the device's capabilities that the software is made to run on. If you have to develop software for an extremely limited embedded device, that should allow users to install extra stuff onto it, you better focus on actually leaving them space to do so.

It's as if Apple would release an iOS update that fills up 50GB of the phone's storage for the OS, leaving just 14GB for data, for instance. Meanwhile releasing a game on Steam that is 50GB in size, could be more reasonable. Developers should keep in mind the hardware before publishing a bloated firmware that deletes existing apps..

Damn :D How can you release a firmware that got larger than before and at the same time offer more coins? They really don't think things true. I mean I couldn't care less for shitcoin support. But if I'd try to offer people more coins, I'd try to do it in a way that it's actually possible to also use more simultaneously.

It's not an unreasonable idea. It was done by the Homebrew community on the Game & Watch (https://www.nintendo.com/products/detail/game-and-watch-super-mario-bros/) for example. It would help knowing if the memory is on- or off-chip and what package it uses.

But if the code was public you would be able to spot that instantly, wouldn't you? You actually answered that in your next post, so it's just a rhetorical question. Open-source software is always the better option, but let's not kid ourselves. A big majority of people have no knowledge about coding, they are just drawn to the idea that it's public and verifiable. There is nothing wrong with that, but it would be interesting to do a test and modify a bit of a code to make it seem malicious and wait to see how much time it will take for people to spot it. Obviously no one would want to do that and mess with their company's reputation. I don't think there are more than 10 people on this forum with the technical skills to understand each line of code. Even if there were more, how many of them are active checking each new release and code modification?   

I can't disagree. As a Ledger user myself, that HW is no longer my first choice if I needed a new one. But let's separate privacy concerns from the safety of funds. The hardware wallet does what it was designed to do. It was designed to keep your private keys safe.

Everything that happened with the database leaks is surely not something they did intentionally. Why would they introduce a backdoor now? If that was the goal all along, wouldn't it have made more sense doing it while their reputation was better to affect as many people as possible? The battery problem is a different matter. That's Ledger's mistake and the fault with those working on assembling the devices. 

They are constantly changing some stuff on their PCBs, but if we look their website we can see all the elements inside, and I can recognize STM Microcontroller and ST31H320 secure element, but I am not sure about memory.
I am not familiar with other components on the board, but maybe memory that is used is from secure element, ST31H320 has up to 320 Kbytes of secure high-density user flash memory.
Nano X is using different model of secure element ST33J2M0 that has up to 2048 Kbytes of user flash memory.

https://i.imgur.com/llk03Rd.jpg
https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404382029329-Check-hardware-integrity?support=true

Achtung achtung! Attention Attention!
I am not a prophet but I can think with my head and here comes confirmation of my words I previously wrote multiple times even in this topic.
Reason for Ledger Nano S constantly reducing space for apps is now very much clear to everyone who wants to see.

Pascal Gauthier CEO and Chairman of Ledger announced at ledgerop3n that Ledger will release NEW Ledger Nano S device that will support more coins, more apps, and bigger screen.
That means that current Nano S device is not going to be manufactured anymore and soon it will not be supported with updates, exactly the same thing happened with Ledger HW.1, Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue devices.
I also saw his recent interview for Protocol and Gauthier said that his biggest competition hardware wallet will be upcoming Block wallet developed by jack Dorsey team.
He said that Ledger is not focused on Bitcoin like Block and he basically said that Ledger is just a shitcoin wallet that is probably going to evolve into phone :D
https://www.protocol.com/fintech/ledger-crypto-wallet-pascal-gauthier

https://i.imgur.com/pVp3LLt.jpg
https://twitter.com/Ledger/status/1468869997510418433

Conclusion:
Ledger Nano S will be discontinued soon, so don't waste your money purchasing it now.

I'm not sure I can spot a dedicated memory chip anywhere on there. The very small storage space indeed hints at them just using the STM's internal memory. If that's the case, there's no experiments regarding 'extending storage' possible.

It is possible that the production will stop at one point in the future. The new Nano S Plus seems like a bigger competitor to the Nano X than to the old Nano S though. Bigger screen, better secure element, more internal memory, but no crap like Bluetooth or faulty internal battery. Maybe they are giving up on both the Nano S and X.

I came to the same conclusion, but they have new plan to make more money with their new hybrid s+ wallet with they just announced few days ago.

I am 99% sure that production os ledger nano s will stop in 2022, and they will blame short supply of chips and small memory for that.
People should think about and transfer their seed words to new device in time, or they will lend up like with ledger blue collectible.
I don't think that ledger will use better secure element, and screen will probably be same like for model nano x.

Even if the production stops, the device will still be supported for some time. It won't happen overnight. They are not going to prevent you from accessing Ledger Live or their services with it. Even the old HW.1 still works (kind of) as mocacinno showed in this post. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5375482.msg58656204#msg58656204) 

Check my reply to you regarding this in one of the other threads in this sub.

Please let's be realistic, they are doing the same thing like smartphones and they even want to evolve their hardware wallet into phone ::)
They don't have the work power to handle updates for all three active devices (they already have 3 or 4 defunct devices) unless they move their factory like Apple in China or hire other slave workers.
This is just my speculation, and we can always return to this post in future and see if I was wrong with my prediction ;)

It's not really a revolutionary prediction you are making there. A new product is getting developed that is meant to eliminate the shortcomings of its forerunner. Once released, it makes the old device less attractive and outdated. Isn't that the way that technology works outside the scope of hardware wallets as well?

I am just saying that it's going to take time. The production of the old Nano S could stop in a month, but you are still going to be able to use your device and they will surely keep making software upgrades for it as well for some time until their clients either purchase a newer Ledger brand or switch to a different company all together. 

It's obvious that, like any commercial company, all they care about is to earn money. And forcing their user off an older product in order to make them buy again is... unfortunately too common and Ledger is clearly doing the same.


They can easily halt the software upgrades whenever they want. Their production for Nano S may be already stopped or may be at the end of this year.
Still, I agree that it should take time. Of course, it depends on how hungry/evil they are. Normally it should take at least one more year from now until the updates will end, but who knows?

---
Also, something you both didn't say (or I've missed) : it also depends on how other software will behave. I mean that unless something fundamental changes or some big flaw is found, I don't see why Electrum wouldn't support the Nano S for many more years after Ledger stops updating it.

Sure, but do you think that it would be a smart business decision to tell their clients: you know what, all those Nano S's you bought, are now useless? From tomorrow, you wont be able to connect to Ledger Live. Hahah, suckers.

Good point. But there is still the issue of not being able to update your Bitcoin crypto app or install the newest firmware. In case your Ledger resets itself, you wont be able to configure it without accessing Ledger Live and downloading the BTC app as well. But yeah, Electrum should still work.

They can tell that for whatever reason the update is no longer compatible with the old hardware (see how Win11 update does it), they can simply tell in a year or two that old hardware is no longer supported, they can say nothing, just release update only for the newer HW (and make sure it won't work on Nano S), in the same way the older smartphones no longer get any kind of updates. There are plenty of ways to do it.
And Ledger's image is already going down, so they can't do much more harm to it :D :D


Clearly. From that point on, the Nano S user will be "walking on thin ice". He has to acknowledge that his device will - sooner or later - become thrash.
But what can he do? If he's transacting a lot, he clearly has to buy new device in the moment the old device is no longer supported. If he's using it seldom and any transaction can wait, all he has to do is to make sure the seed he wrote down is indeed good (easy to achieve with a Tails stick, offline), and wait for the device's complete end-of-life.

Nobody is forcing people to switch to new android smarphone devices but many people do it because phones stop working after few years, apps are not supported, etc.
You will notice that Ledger is doing exact same thing, but hardware wallet should not be the same as phones and communication device consumer products.
Ledger can always create new apps that will not be compatible with nano S and that would make it useless.

Answer to you question would be that you can't really use Electrum wallet now with older ledger devices like Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue.
On the other hand, first ever hardware wallet device Trezor One is still working just fine with Electrum, so you see the difference.
I am just saying that people who buy ledger nano S device now are basically wasting their money, clear and simple.

Actually they do work, just certain apps won't work on won't update.
(I do agree with your conclusion though).


I don't know how long after the production has stopped they have become (more or less) unusable. It could give us a hint for what to expect, although it also depends on what vulnerabilities are found and when.
For example, you can see here an obsolete Ledger HW.1 still working (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5375482.msg58656204#msg58656204), although only with legacy addresses (including nested SegWit).
So, while I agree more than 90% with you, I find you a bit too harsh  ;D

---

Something else has also occurred to me. Although they'll discontinue Nano S, after some while, I expect that for many years to come they'll get support tickets from people keeping their money on a Nano S and "now" no longer working.

Serious thought, Ledger has already made it 100% clear that they don't care about their customers. They are not even trying to hide it. But they are selling a ton of devices. So, the question is WHAT are they doing that other manufacturers are not? And if the other manufacturers do the same will they pull sales from Ledger? And if not why not? This is something we should be discussing. I have my own thoughts, but I am interested in what other people think.


A bit of snark.
Introductions:
n0nce this is reality, reality this is n0nce apparently you never met each other yet :-)

I have been playing with PCs and tech since the mid 1980s, been actively in the IT support world since the late 1980s
From PCs, embedded devices and the like all the way up to full big iron servers developers have always been trying to see how much the hardware can handle then going beyond what it can do. Adding features at the sacrifice of things working properly. I dislike Ledger and the way that they do things. But it's been going on for more then 30 years that I can prove so I would guess it's been going on much longer then that.

-Dave

Imagine having to deal with way more faulty features than we're already seeing after each of the updates, on their current line-up... No, thanks :D

That's also bound to happen at some point for the Nano X, but I don't think they'll be doing it at the same time ^{[e.g. fewer sales]} + based on "this (https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/rfdwu2/unknown_mail/)" post, it appears that in the near future, they might be releasing it with their "new logo (https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/rfdwu2/unknown_mail/hodjnem/)".

I have limited knowledge when it comes to how they've handled the updates for the previous generations, but it'd be nice to at least see some security updates from time to time!
^{- I'm using a Samsung phone that stopped receiving software updates in the past year or two, but it's still receiving security updates regularly [depending on the device, I believe it's going to be for 4 to 5 years].}

Perhaps, they've unlocked the secret to how easily manipulate potential buyers...

Marketing and social media engagement could be one reason. On Facebook, Ledger has 57k followers, Trezor only 30k. Ledger's Twitter page is followed by 267k people, Trezor only has 158k. Ledger has a YouTube channel with 35k subscribers, Trezor's is only followed by 1.8k. Ledger releases several videos a week, Trezor released only 4 in the last 3 months.

If you do a Google search of "hardware wallet", Ledger's official site is the first result you will see. It's followed by several guides and articles and then you will find Trezor's official site towards the bottom of the first page results.

All that shows that Ledger is easier to find and come across. You see their content more frequently on social media and YouTube. Whether people like that or not, it works. I am sure they have many more partnerships with brands from the crypto sphere than Trezor. I think they just announced one with the FTX exchange a few days ago. Everyone using that exchange will probably see the Ledger branding somewhere, and they won't see the same for Trezor.

Ledger has also had it native app (Ledger Live) much longer than Trezor had its Trezor Suite. Love it or hate it, it was still there. You can use it for trading, staking, exchanging, for DeFi, soon for NFTs, etc. None of that might appeal to hardcore bitcoiners, but obviously tens and hundreds of thousands of people like it.   

For sure. They have already rebranded Ledger Live some time ago and they will surely do the same with the hardware wallets. They just have to sell the old stock first.

Ledger indeed sold millions of their devices so far, and I tried to find some official information how much devices are sold by other hardware wallet manufacturers.
It's not easy to find exact data and some of them didn't want to reveal this info, but what I know is that Trezor also sold over one million devices, but they made first ever hardware wallet in the word so no wonder.
I think that Ledger have better marketing strategy and they are willing to work with anyone including centralized exchanges like Coinbase,
they probably have better funding, and and they have hidden signed agreements, maybe even with government agencies for spying people.
Ledger is also part of DCG - Digital Currency Group with 165 companies including Chainalysis, Coindesk, etc. so that may be one more reason.

Maybe next step from them is to make ledger hardware wallet brain implant, and I am sure that many people would accept this phone/wallet spying nightmare.
Everyone should read latest interview of Ledger CEO Pascal Gauthier to see how optimistic and ambitious he is:

https://www.protocol.com/fintech/ledger-crypto-wallet-pascal-gauthier

:D I guess you're right, that developers always try to squeeze out the most out of the available hardware - even to this day. However, these days I see this mostly for example in AAA games, where sometimes at launch date nobody really owns the hardware to run them. But I feel like 'getting the most out of the hardware' should also mean making it run as good as possible, for as long as possible. I noticed in recent years smartphones running longer and better than in the past, where a 2013 application could slow a 2012 phone down to the point of 'unusability'.
Also, just because a bad practice is going on for a long time, doesn't mean it should continue. Especially if a manufacturer makes both the hardware and the software, they need to make sure it runs. If they're different, they can always blame it on the other party; but that's not the case with Ledger and their Ledger apps.

Have used the Ledger Nano S before and as far as the display is concerned, I can only agree with the OP. It is very cheaply produced and does not last long. After the display broke, I have no longer used a HW wallet.

But I am about to buy a new HW wallet. What do you guys think is the best option right now? The software should be open source and the memory should be enough to manage at least 10 coins. Is Ledger Nano X a good option?

Did you drop it or you're still referring to the third point in OP?

Since the firmware that's being used in it isn't open-source, it doesn't tick all the boxes... As a Trezor user, I'm quite happy with mine, but it doesn't come with a "secure element (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5304483.0)".
^{- Open Source Hardware Wallets (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5288971.0)}

You can easily order and replace that display yourself, order it online from from one many websites that sell them likethis one (https://www.buydisplay.com/0-91-inch-128x32-oled-display-with-connector-fpc-ssd1306-white-on-black) for example, and follow this video instructions (https://youtu.be/dSwmk4GW4GI).
If you need any help you can write in this topic, and people will help you if you get stuck somewhere during this process.
Ledger should also release new device ledger nano s plus in 2022 and they improved display and made it bigger.

I would not suggesting anyone to waste money purchasing ledger nano X for several reasons, it's closed source, many people recently reported battery and firmware update issues.
More information about this can be found in my topic Ledger Nano X Battery Pandemic (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5358741.0).

My suggestion for everyone is to think about purchasing and supporting Open Source hardware wallets, or simply use offline computer with software wallet.
List of hardware wallets supporting more coins like you want:

- Trezor (https://trezor.io/)
- Bitbox (https://shiftcrypto.ch/)
- Keystone (https://keyst.one/)

I had some of the same Ledger concerns shared in this thread but to me they are absolved if you're willing to buy 2-3 wallets at a time and shelve/store them securely after verifying they work. I didn't like the data breach Ledger had but these things happen, even to governments. Batteries and screens also fail over time, no electronic device is exempt to it. I want to be clear that I'm not knocking open source here either though, I'm just saying I don't share the grave concern here as to why Ledger is that bad in comparison to other options out there.

However, with the above in mind and if I was buying right now, I really like the way Keystone is going, especially when it comes to the point of batteries issues over time.

Lastly, no way I'd use Ledger for FIDO and I don't suggest anyone use any hardware wallet for that purpose either, simply because you're putting too many eggs in one basket if you ask me.

I also like Keystone approach on many things, but I have my concerns and complains for them also.
For example, they are still not supporting Segwit addresses and Taproot support will come maybe in 2022 but just for Bitcoinonly firmare.
Second thing is that we don't exactly know what secure element they use because they never disclosed that information.
If you ask me, I am waiting to see first fully open source hardware wallet from Trezor, Square or maybe someone else who knows.

Adding FIDO 2FA is cool feature in theory, and it would be nice to use one device only for that, but my issue is what happens if device gets broken or firmware update messes up everything.
You can't use any backup on other FIDO devices and you must buy new ledger, or your can't log-in on your account anymore.
 

My Nano S works just fine for several years, but I would never upgrade it to the Nano X. I am against the idea of Bluetooth, a battery (especially following the fiasco with all those battery hardware problems that the Nano X had), and I don't need storage space for 100 coins. I wouldn't be able to write down 100 coins to save my life. And neither could those who say that is the reason for their purchase of a Nano X.

However, it would be nice if the Nano S could at least support 4-5 installed coins at once. But it doesn't.
Based on what is available right now. I would probably take one of the two Trezor HWs. Just make sure you extend your seed with a long and secure passphrase. But don't expect to get one of those until February either, unless you are purchasing one from an official reseller who still has some.

Good question asked by one guy from ledger reddit channel regarding broken ledger nano S screen, something that is happening much more often than you may think.
If something like this happened to your device it's making it almost unusable and only thing you could do is buying new display replacement.
Anyway, do you think word #14 in this case is climb or clump (both of them can be found in bip39 word list)?

https://i.imgur.com/cNUrwsR.jpg
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/t62b8a/does_anyone_know_what_this_word_is_setting_up_but/

I know this reply comes a few months later but they did not add an option to remove the delay.  This sucks.  Imagine Windows suddenly imposed a delay between key presses that you can not change.

In fact, things got even worse.  With the latest firmware updates they also added this 'hold both keys to open Settings'.  It now takes about 2 seconds to pop up the Settings menu.  So now you have a delay between button presses and it takes seconds to access the Settings menu.  They even added this warning thing for the Passphrase setup.  So if before I was able to go from entering the pin to the Passphrase setup menu in half a minute, now it takes at least 2 minutes to do it.  I do not mind the Passphrase warning, it is good for new users but I think a 'never show again' thing would have been handy?  What is next?  A system UI overhaul with 5 second ads that you can not close every time you want to open an app?

It seems very obvious to me now that with every update they are trying to make us move on to a 'better' product of theirs.  The effect it had on me is exactly the opposite though, I have moved everything to a fully open source hardware wallet now.  Congrats, Ledger!  You only lost another customer.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Between 'climb' and 'clump', I think it can only be 'climb'. There isn't enough space for all of the curves of the letters 'um' if they are preceded by an 'l'.

The hold both keys for the settings menu feature was introduced with firmware version 2.0.0 (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/360010446000-Ledger-Nano-S-firmware-release-notes?docs=true), not 2.1.0.

I am inclined to the version that this word is "climb". There is too little space between characters for the word "clump". Otherwise, the distance between the 2nd and 4th letter would be greater.

In general, Pmalek expressed the same thing:
If only one word became unreadable (which I doubt), then could try to enter both variants of words into the passphrase. One of them would definitely fit. In this case, I would start with word "climb".

I also think the hidden word was climb... now I feel like I am in ledger tv quiz.
This was not the problem with only one word... display is fried and unusable (common issue for ledger nono S) so all words are missing some parts, but some of them are easier to read than others.
Whatever hardware wallet you own it would be a good idea to have one back-up wallet (maybe even from different manufacturer), just in case you need to send your coins quickly.

It's also not a bad idea to have a spare display either, especially since they are not that expensive and cost only a few dollars. They are easier to replace than I thought and literally anyone can do it after watching a 2-minute YouTube video. The thing that people need to remember though is that you void your warranty if you physically open your Ledger HW. And according to their support, they will replace faulty devices even if the 2-year warranty period expires. That's not the case if you open it though.

Is it even recommended to send them back to them for faulty device replacement though?  I would not trust them handling my Ledger.  Particularly with a closed source component they can mess with which may have easily stored information I definitely would not want it to.

Would rather replace the display by myself and void the warranty instead.  Or just buy a new one but my suggestion is, do not trust strangers, particularly Ledger employees, with your Hardware Wallet on their hands.

-
Regards,
PrivacyG

Well, I fully admit, the option of sending back a device with a broken display. Only I would first transfer the entire balance to another working device. Broken display prevents you from doing this? But you still have seed-phrase, don't you?  So, it's quite possible and you don't have to worry that Ledger will get critical information for you.

First set up a cold storage (with properly checking the new seed and addresses, with proper backups of the seed) and transfer your funds there.
And obviously also reset the HW (enter wrong PIN 3 times). Maybe even reinitialize it for an empty wallet and reinstall at least the bitcoin app.

Then even if they insist in recovering your seed, the most they can get is an old transaction history, if anything.
And yes, then I would not be scared to send it to them for fixing it.

You can't reset the device to factory settings with a completely broken display unfortunately and there is also no option to do that through Ledger Live. What you can do is to restore your Bitcoin wallet from seed on Electrum, for example, and then create a new wallet for temporary use until your hardware wallet is fixed. The old HW seed should never be used again since it was recovered in a hot wallet and has lost its protection.

This can become a lengthy process if you have multiple coins and you need to recover each and everyone of them and move them to a new wallet with a different seed.

If the display isn't working or you can't see what you are entering, it will become difficult to reset it that way.

Clearly, it depends how big the damage is. This display is also broken, but you can still see enough for doing a reset (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5370521.msg59427614#msg59427614).
On the other hand, if it's completely black and one also had really big funds there, indeed, best is scraping the HW and buying another (maybe from another maker), so he doesn't get his funds and home address exposed, even if he moved the funds away.
So it depends... one has to take the decision for himself; all we can do is come with ideas.

I also wouldn’t choose to send my device in for repair, I would try to fix it myself or buy a new one and smash the old one to pieces and throw it in the fire - $50 or $150 is not worth the risk, unless the device has never stored anything of value, or we got it broken.

No it's not recommended, and even if you reset your device who knows what can happen during delivery, not to mention cost of doing that would be much more then you paid for this bad device.
DIY repair and ordering cheap display replacement from China is not that hard, I don't think there is any soldering process at all.
Ordering links and instructions for this can be found in the first post of this topic.
In case device screen is dimmed (one more nono s issue) you can use smartphone camera to see content on ledger display.

It is now officially confirmed and announced on Ledger Op3n in NYC, Ledger Nano S last 10 000 devices will be sold next week with NFT, and they are going to stop it's production in favor of new model Ledger Nano S Plus.
I hate to say it again, but I told you this will happen, and they are still wasting time and resources for some NFT crap called Ledger Market (market.ledger.com).
They created some extension for this that sounds a lot like one old scam BitConnet, and it's called LedgerConnect... very similar terrible name  :D
This means lot's of new sign-ups and new chances to get elected for their new leak and contacted from scammers.
Ledger has become a lot like circus show.

It would be nice to add links. Do you mind if I add?

https://www.ledger.com/blog/our-security-products-educational-announcements-at-ledger-op3n-during-nft.nyc

https://www.ledger.com/the-ledger-nano-s-sunset-the-next-phase-in-our-web3-hardware-journey - post on the termination of production and sales Nano S.

Exactly what dkbit98 had repeatedly warned about happened. What will be the next stage? Is it really the termination of support Nano S. Then millions of user devices will turn out to be a useless toy and people will be forced to buy a new HW device again?

It's good that dkbit98 keeps track of updates and reports on changes, otherwise community would not have learned about the latest 10k Nano S devices here soon. There are those who want to buy HW from the latest supply? ;)

I'm not a fan of the Ledger wallets, whether the Nano S or the Nano X, so I'm not trying to defend them from anything other than misinformation.  To that end, they will be supporting the Nano S for the foreseeable future despite their plans to discontinue production.

This is from the blog post revealing the news:


Again, I've been critical of Ledger for various reasons, but I seriously doubt they would leave their Nano S users out in the cold.  That would be worse (for their business) than leaking all their customer info onto the darkweb.  :D

This is not really unexpected since they still want to sell the remaining units and by European laws they have to offer support and warrantee for 2 years, afaik.
The interesting part is that they don't give any time frame, nothing. So since I expect they will sell all remaining Nano S this year, .. let's see what will they say about this at the end of 2024.

On the other hand, Nano S+ is, afaik, basically just a Nano S with bigger memory. If it's like that, keeping it updated may not be a big hassle even after those two years. And if they do it, they'll keep quite a big number of old customers happy.

Sure, and it's not a bad idea to archive this links and save them for future.
If something changes on Ledger website regarding this we can always refer to archives.

Judging by their actions in past and how they handled support for many of their discontinued devices (HW.1, Unplugged, Nano, Blue), I am not trusting what they say about support for one more discontinued wallet.
They are wasting time and resources on other useless things, so I am predicting they will create some update that will make model S unusable in reality... maybe with much bigger ledger coin apps.
Excuse could be that they are doing this for ''safety and security'' of their beloved customers  :P

It's obvious that sooner or later that's what will happen. The point is the "when". I hope that it'll happen only after the chip shortage loosen up and SeedSigner becomes more mature too.

From reading the quote above, I had some thoughts. Ledger guarantees one thing, Ledger guarantees another. They can't even guarantee the safety of the personal data of their customers, not to mention something else.
 
And what if one day Ledger ceases to exist (or just support its devices) and all devices bought by users turn into useless junk. It turns out that at least part of crypto community depends on this company, which is not at all in harmony with the ideas of decentralization. In principle, this applies to any sold devices.

Now I'm going off topic a little a bit and ask a question. Why hasn't crypto community created their own hardware wallet yet? It seems to me that this can be done with due desire, although many difficulties and obstacles will arise.

The idea is the following:
Hardware and software must be separate. The firmware must be open source with the ability to download, as is done with electrun, for example, and the device itself so that it can be bought separately or assembled by yourself. Even better, if the device will have a high level of maintainability and be modular.

As a result, it could look like this:
- bought the device or assembled it youself from the components.
- downloaded the firmware and installed it on the hardware wallet.
- use it.

I agree, it's bound to happen eventually.  Any excuse they come up with will have to be evaluated at the time for validity.  Companies are in business to make money, and selling hard goods is a tough business to be in.  I know from experience.  You sell one hardware wallet to someone, and that's probably the only one they'll buy for the next 5 years.

I've been a manufacturing worker in various industries for nearly 30 years, and I've seen companies I've worked for use different strategies to stay relevant while also supporting their old clients as best as they can.  One widget manufacturer I used to work for would try to upgrade their products annually, and as their previous products became less and less common the prices of maintaining those products would organically become less cost effective.  It's not due to greed, but manufacturing rates.  If I make 100 pieces of widget A, each piece is cheaper than if I only made 50, or 25.  As fewer people need Widget A, it'll become more expensive for the manufacturer keep in production, and more expensive for the customer to buy.  But, in order to stay relevant and keep attracting new customers, they need implement new technology in their products.  It can be a double edged sword; your new customers are happy to have the latest and greatest, and your old customers become bitter as their product becomes more expensive to maintain, or even useless.

I know it's trendy to bash on Ledger these days, especially in recent years, but consider what they have done to help the crypto community over all.  One could argue they've been a tremendous force in the effort to accelerate mass adoption due to the simplicity, affordability, and security of the Nano S.

Again, I'm not a fan of Ledger but at the same time I have a perspective on their struggle that may not be common on this forum.

I could say that they didn't do anything spectacular and the competition has done the same.
But: they've done it cheaper than most of the competition. And clearly that means cost cutting here and there, which is bound to back fire sooner or later. And it did.
It's not about bashing Ledger because it's a trendy thing to do, it's about losing confidence/trust in them; and you know how difficult is to build up trust and how easy is to lose it.

[/quote]

I think that if that happen, we can just ignore ledger live and use third party wallets such as Electrum/metamask/etc that will most likely never drop support.

our seed will never be unusable, and any firmware update that would "destroy" the device we can simply skip it.



I totally agree with this.

Cheap, easy to use, compatible with every altcoin/fork/etc.  And most important: very safe.

I am not saying something just because it's trendy, but I am doing exact opposite and just stating the facts.
I would argue that first ever hardware wallet Trezor has done much more than Ledger for whole Bitcoin ecosystem, and has much less problem with their devices.
Same Trezor model One still works perfectly fine and they have regular updates, and I don't know a single contribution Ledger made to Bitcoin ecosystem,
but yes they are contributing a lot for shitcoinery and NFT scammery.... so they basically accelerated shit, like when you flash water in your toilet.

Although software like Electrum will most likely support older firmware, this will happen only until the point some big change/update/security fix is implemented (into bitcoin itself, or Electrum, or even Ledger itself).
While I expect Electrum be on the side of its users, it probably won't allow unsafe device still work.

So at some point, whether we like or not, after Ledger stops supporting Nano S, it will become just an useless piece of hardware.

However, we're still fine for 2 more years at least, so it's not something I'd insist on too much this early.

Certainly that argument can be made, and I am inclined to agree with you.  I was merely commenting on shear numbers, Ledger having a bigger market share may have made a bigger impact on attracting end users, and hence mass adoption. 


Couldn't agree more, Trezor is a superior product, and company.  Although the ColdCard is starting to win me over, I can't see myself without a Trezor any time soon.



Haha!  Touché.  Shitcoiners will grow up eventually, and they still need some love in the mean time.  :D

To their credit; the devices don't become useless the moment Ledger drops support. They continue working just fine.

It is true however, that you probably should start looking around for something new once that happens, because you'll never know if there are new security vulnerabilities that are simply not fixed anymore.

That's exactly the idea behind SeedSigner. It doesn't have a secure element, so they opted not to allow for seed storage on the device; this means it's less easy to use than an actual hardware wallet that does store the seed.

However, the closest I know that you can get to that idea is:
[1] Buy Foundation Passport (https://foundationdevices.com) (by the way; price will increase from $200 to $250 next week)
[2] Open it up, verify the integrity of all components, as well as the screen circuitry etched into the glass (https://youtu.be/Hzb37RyagCQ?t=2052) and match what you see against the fully open-source hardware data sheets, PCBs, etc. (https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-electronics)
[3] Upload your own 'developer pub key' to it (https://docs.foundationdevices.com/en/developer-pubkey)
[4] Clone the firmware repo (https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-firmware) and read all the code, perform static and dynamic security audit
[5] Build the firmware (https://github.com/Foundation-Devices/passport-firmware/blob/main/DEVELOPMENT.md#building) and upload it to the device

Actually, Trezor's impact is super big, just considering their actual open source license (and apparently good code).
It is used by ColdCard (though it switched to CC license which doesn't allow to use their code, which I'm not sure is even allowed by the Trezor license).
And it is used by Foundation Passport; who don't hide it at all:

Sure, Ledger gave a cheap device to the masses, but nobody could use their code or information on how to build the hardware for such a device, since it's all totally closed and I don't think it was cheaper than a Trezor One either. It came after the Trezor, too, as you mentioned, so there's that.

They've used questionable tactics (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGJxTuYJP8o) (shown in music videos with tens of millions of views) for that, of course all paid from customers buying old, low-quality (and still cheap) devices; so the margins must be pretty large and the component costs close to zero.

Keep in mind to check out the 'questionable' stuff about CC I wrote above and in the ColdCard thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5399704.0). Also looking at its price vs. current (discounted Passport price) of just $40 more, I find ColdCard a hard sell right now.

Yes I agree with you on this, ledger invested a lot of money on marketing and they collected millions from various companies.
This is what makes me be even more suspicious about ledger, because I don't know who exactly sent them money and for what.
I do know they are receive all customer/user stats as third party, like ledger revealed recently in their ledger live privacy policy.

I wouldn't say it's superior, and it certainly needs some updating, but it's better than Ledger and everything is open source, just like Bitcoin.

Sure, but question is can you really use all their previously discontinued devices and how...
You need to go with some shenanigans and use other ancient outdated software wallets just to make a transaction or send coins.
I could say the same thing for old Coldcard hardware wallets, I can probably use them but they are not safe and can be exploited.
I can also use win98, winXP or win vista, it works :D

There is one more reason not to buy any of the ledger hardware wallets (including Nano S) for storing shitcoins, in light with recent collapse/hack of Solana.
People keep tweeting this would not happen if you had coins stored on hardware wallets like ledger, but ledger conveniently decided to stop ALL Solana services so you can't move coins even if you want to do it.

Solana account is Disconnected on Ledger Live and showing 504 error.
Ledger customer support officially confirmed that due to the extreme circumstances surrounding the widespread hack on the Solana network, their Solana explorer is experiencing outages and it's not up-to-date.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/wf7x9x/solana_account_disconnected_on_ledger/

https://i.imgur.com/GPnxnzh.jpg
https://status.ledger.com/
https://web.archive.org/web/20220803204305/https://status.ledger.com/

If you look at history of their Ledger Live app you could mostly see news about new tokens, like 100 cardano tokens added, etc.
You are better of storing bunch of bananas in secure vault, than using any hardware wallets to store shitcoins.

I have no information about the hack and what happened with Solana, but the issues with this particular network is certainly not something that Ledger or any other HW manufacturer is to be blamed for. While updating one of my threads about withdrawal fees/amounts on crypto casinos, I noticed that withdrawals for Solana was disabled on a popular casino the other day. If I made some more checks, I am sure I would find other casinos that have done the same thing.

If I may switch gears for a bit; any body hear about Ledger seeking more funding?  According to a couple of articles that came out yesterday, they're in talks with investment firms looking for $100 million.  Not sure if this is a sign that they're in trouble or that they're planning on some other gimmick to lure more newbies.

Article here. (https://news.crunchbase.com/fintech-ecommerce/crypto-venture-funding-unicorn-ledger-startup)

I don't know what you mean, but ledger is even worse than casinos.
They received money from shitcoins like solana to list them, they supported them and spent time to support them them and add in their wallets.
People transferred and exchanged coins in Ledger and now they can't use or move them from ledger.

This looks like a clear promotion to me:
https://www.ledger.com/blog-you-can-now-buy-manage-solana-sol-through-ledger-live
https://www.ledger.com/staking/ledger-node/solana
https://blog.ledger.com/stacking-towards-the-sun/

If you are going to be world largest shitcoin casino wallet than you should accept some responsibility for shit you are promoting.

They spend a lot of money on advertisement and bear market probably affected them like other crypto companies, but they need more money to promote other shitcoins.
Look carefully who is going to give them money, if they ever release this information publicly.

I'm not trying to defend Ledger by any means ^{[they've turned into a shitty company in the past couple of years]}, but it appears that there's still a way to access and move their Solana funds...
^{- SET UP AND USE SOLFLARE TO ACCESS YOUR LEDGER SOLANA (SOL) ACCOUNT (https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4405485585041-Set-up-and-use-Solflare-to-access-your-Ledger-Solana-SOL-account?docs=true)}

Looks like it's not the only network with outages in the past few days, but the other affected networks were just on smaller scales.

It's PR like any other PR in the world. I am not sure what you expect it to say. According to you, should it say Solana is a shitcoin only used by idiots and morons? if you stake Solana in our buggy Ledger Live app, you are a retard. Don't buy SOL, its absolute rubbish. Maybe you can show my some PR from other hardware wallet manufacturer's where they talk bad about their product, services, and the coins they support.

And the problems with the SOL explorer have been solved on 3 August btw.
https://status.ledger.com/incidents/zk0tmdvpbp7j

They already did a ''perfect'' job promoting shit, with titles like World-Leading Blockchain Within Your Reach and Stacking Towards the Sun.
Ledger is responsible for making shitcoins more popular and giving people false sense of security, but personally I am not expecting anything from them.
Hey, if you like using shitcoins on your ledger device, than enjoy while it lasts.

That's what you get when you list so much shitcoins.
I am not sure about status of other networks, but it makes device less secure with more coins listed, like few days ago I saw they listed 100 cardano tokens, but they still ship devices with dust under the screen  :D

People shouldn't rely on what Ledger says, or what you say, or what I say. They should do their own research before they invest in anything. Including Bitcoin. For everything else, they have only themselves to blame. Not me, not you, and not Ledger for having a blog that is filled with promotional content. I couldn't care what is on their blog. I don't read it or consider it before investing into anything. Any company that has a blog has certainly done their part in promoting something. That goes for Trezor and their blog as well.

As for me and shitcoins. Not that it is anyone's concern but my portfolio is made up almost entirely out of bitcoin. I guess their promotional materials aren't as good as you initially thought. ;) I said almost because I store a few alts that I need for other purposes and ventures. But they don't fall into the shitcoin category.

Most people here can say the same. It sounds ridiculous buying a hardware wallet for some semi-centralized coin, when the coin's network can just shut down and rendering your cold storage useless.

It all comes down to greed for a few extra bucks. People think staking === make more money. Maybe that is the purpose for the invention of staking, but it stinks, and it shows its rotten side in situations like this.

I wasn't sure where to post this because it doesn't require its own thread. But I think it fits quite well in here. Plus it will make dkbit98 happy when someone brings up a negative thing about Ledger. ;D

I was sending some USDT last night and noticed something I never saw before. While creating the transaction and verifying the data on Ledger's screen, I got a call on my mobile and had to postpone the signing process for a few minutes. When I was done and I wanted to confirm and broadcast my transaction, it failed with an error message saying that I need to verify the data on screen within a 30-seconds period. On a second attempt, it worked just fine.

This is a really bad feature Ledger has created here. I don't think it's something that Tron developed from their side. Instead of incentivizing users to take their time and double and triple check the addresses and amounts, Ledger is forcing them to hurry up and possibly making a mistake due to a small 30-seconds window for the verification. 30 seconds is enough in all honesty, but some people are slower than others for different reasons.

Is this feature present with other coins and networks?

This line just made my day :D

I dug hard, but couldn't find any other reported cases... Did it occur while using the LL or it was connected to a third-party wallet like Tronscan?

---

It seems the memory issue that dkbit98 mentioned last year, it's starting ^[somewhat] to protrude from the surface ^{[source (https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/wolatk/biggest_ledger_live_app_file_size_all_coins/)]} while it hasn't even been a month since they've sold the remaining stock!

It occurred while using Ledger Live and the native Tron app - not a 3rd-party wallet. I haven't done any additional research if other people noticed something similar in the past. The next time I make a Bitcoin transaction, I am not going to sign and broadcast it for a few minutes once the information gets sent over to my Ledger just to see if the same feature is also present with Bitcoin.

The limited storage capacity is a problem, no doubt about that. However, it would be illogical to think that the apps aren't going to get bigger with time, and once they do, the internal memory will become an even bigger problem. When Ledger started supporting Taproot, new code had to be added to the BTC app and that resulted in a bigger size. As soon as some new changes are introduced, we will see another increase in the app size.

Ledger's fault is producing a hardware wallet with such limited memory. But I can't blame them for the size increases of individual apps. It would be like blaming Bitcoin Core for each new block that gets added to the blockchain and the resulting decrease of your own disk capacity. 

Oh but I expected to see something much more serious than stuff you reported, and I have to be honest and say that anything related with ledger doesn't make me happy in any way.
I think it's probably more related with shitcoin network and tokens you are using, so better ask for customer support from Justin Sun  :D

I wouldn't say that small memory size was the reason for this issue, but it will create more problems down the road for sure.
He can always buy new ledger S plus device to test if same thing is happening, and he will get extra free dust (below the screen).  :P
Some people running Linux are reporting issues with S plus, so pay attention on this, but I think Pmalek loves Gates so he is still using wiNd0ws spyware os:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/wo6wzj/issues_with_ledger_nano_plus/

Nah, Gates is no longer involved with Windows. He is more into vaccine spyware right now. ;D

Regarding the issue you linked to, I have seen problems related to Ledger failing the genuine test before. Sometimes it's the cable, other times it's the USB port, or local firewall/AV settings that prevent the software from communicating with Ledger's servers.

This is one of the recommendations their support team issues in such a case:

Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/stuy32/comment/hx6e9dv/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

---

On a different note, the good old Ledger Nano S has been retired and is no longer mentioned on the official site. Under products, there is only the Nano X and the Nano S Plus now. Same thing on the shop.

Goodbye old friend...

Looking forward to seeing the result ^{[as it stands, you're the first to report this design flaw]}.

I completely agree with everything that you said, but at the same time, it has led to more work for other developers ^{[I recently noticed a few of them released two versions for their apps, just so it could fit the nano s a bit longer while also taking out some of its functionalities]} and fewer features for its end-users.

Surprisingly, I didn't know about some of this stuff...

Unfortunately, the same can't be said with regard to some of its official resellers :'(

I guess you are talking about the light and XL versions of crypto apps. I wasn't even aware that these existed until someone mentioned it in a different post. Polkadot is one such app, for example. If you have a Nano S and you want to install the Polkatot app, Ledger Live will install the light version by default. But if you have a Nano X/Nano S Plus, you can install the XL version. Some of the features of the XL version aren't supported in the light app. There is even a support article by Polkadot that mentions that if you install the XL version on your Nano S, you won't be able to use your hardware wallet with Ledger Live. I assume you can't work with the Polkadot asset through LL, but it doesn't affect other functionalities of the hardware wallet assuming you have enough storage capacity on your Nano S.

Source (https://support.polkadot.network/support/solutions/articles/65000179210-ledger-error-not-supported-or-unexpected-call-index-)

Some of them still have the Nano S in their inventory? As soon as that stash is sold, I am sure they will remove any mention of it as well.

RIP Nono S... welcome to big ledger graveyard.
I guess it's time to lock this thread soon, or update it with new title Why I would never buy Ledger Nano X.
Maybe I will wait for some time until biggest official reseller shops stop selling this deprecated devices.

On the one hand, it would be a pity if the discussion stops and this topic goes to the back of the forum, because useful experience and information has been accumulated here. In the event that you create a separate new topic dedicated to Nono S+.

On the other hand, model S is different from model S+ and its problems will be somewhat different, so I think it is necessary to separate the discussion of model S from model S+. Also, in the context of the discontinuation of Nano S, the topic name "Why I wouldn't buy Ledger Nano S ever again?" ceases to be relevant.
 
How about devoting a separate new topic to the discussion of Ledger Nano S+, but in the title post provide a link to this topic and make it noticeable by highlighting it? Thus, topic "Why I wouldn't buy Ledger Nano S ever again"? will not be lost among the rest and will be visible to those who will be interested in it.

Here is another big reason why you should never use any Ledger devices and Ledger software applications.
Ledger app source code is not closed source, so someone actually decided to check what's inside, and he discovered that it is full of tracking.
Now this guy is trying to clean the code and use it for some shitcoin, but this is Sisyphos work and a waste of time.
He wrote more about this on his twitter page, but it is clear that ledger is tracking everything...every click, every keystroke is logged and reported to Ledger.

https://www.talkimg.com/images/2023/12/08/NxpRP.jpeg
https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1732542258698694875

He released his own version called REKT's Ledger Libre Fork, but be careful if you ever use this:
https://github.com/rektbuildr/ledger-live

Use this ONLY if you have no other choice, maybe for some shitcoin.
For everything else use proven and tested wallets like Electrum, and other open source hardware wallets, not ledger.

I saw it yesterday.

But don't forget that people can block analytics themselves in the ledger live settings.
After all we browsers do the same, and in the same way, people can block that.

It's a part to improve the UX, and so to make it better

No you can't block everything in ledger, you are only getting illusion that you are blocking something.
This dev guy wouldn't waste so much time removing all this crap and creating his own fork if this was so easy.

You can't seriously compare browsers with hardware wallet applications.

No, it's for collecting more information from customers, and ledger is becoming worse and worse, despite more and more data collection.

It's not an illusion.
You can check it yourself dude.


I mentionned browsers as I could mention a long list. That's how the www and the techs work.
Websites do it
Softwares do it
OS do it
Phone apps do it.
Devices do it
My wife does it

That's how you find bugs and fix it for example, that's also how you improve the UI or UX, and so on


Let me spin:
LibreWolf dev wouldn't waste so much time removing all Firefox craps and creating his own fork



On the top of that, it's not something new. I mean Ledger has been clear about that since a long time
More information that what? It never changed
(it changed in the version <I don't remember wich one> to be honest but that's old) Remember the company needs to follow a few points.

Here we go:

So Metamask is doing the same thing

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GA-WVm8W0AAYgfO?format=png&name=900x900
 (https://twitter.com/rektbuildr/status/1733770668427133213)

Metamask here also uses a 1x1 pixel iframe for analytics

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GA-ZSSKXUAAmmy8?format=png&name=small (https://twitter.com/rektbuildr/status/1733773167905190226)

it's a hot wallet, yes, so let's see what Trezor, as hadrware wallet does.
Trezor Suite is doing the same and also has opt-out analytics
https://trezor.io/learn/a/user-data-protection

Oh so here I have answer for dim display.

 I only started using it couple years after receiving it, and it's been dim ever since, I thought I mishandled it but apparently it's cheap in itself. Thanks for mobile camera solution, so far I have been using it in dark to get my work done.

Once it dies, I'm gonna migrate to Trezor.