Why I wouldn't buy Ledger Nano S ever again?

[dkbit98]

I'm not sure I can spot a dedicated memory chip anywhere on there. The very small storage space indeed hints at them just using the STM's internal memory. If that's the case, there's no experiments regarding 'extending storage' possible.

I came to the same conclusion, but they have new plan to make more money with their new hybrid s+ wallet with they just announced few days ago.

It is possible that the production will stop at one point in the future. The new Nano S Plus seems like a bigger competitor to the Nano X than to the old Nano S though. Bigger screen, better secure element, more internal memory, but no crap like Bluetooth or faulty internal battery. Maybe they are giving up on both the Nano S and X.

I am 99% sure that production os ledger nano s will stop in 2022, and they will blame short supply of chips and small memory for that.
People should think about and transfer their seed words to new device in time, or they will lend up like with ledger blue collectible.
I don't think that ledger will use better secure element, and screen will probably be same like for model nano x.

[Pmalek]

People should think about and transfer their seed words to new device in time, or they will lend up like with ledger blue collectible.

Even if the production stops, the device will still be supported for some time. It won't happen overnight. They are not going to prevent you from accessing Ledger Live or their services with it. Even the old HW.1 still works (kind of) as mocacinno showed in this post. 

I don't think that ledger will use better secure element, and screen will probably be same like for model nano x.

Check my reply to you regarding this in one of the other threads in this sub.

[dkbit98]

Even if the production stops, the device will still be supported for some time. It won't happen overnight. They are not going to prevent you from accessing Ledger Live or their services with it. Even the old HW.1 still works (kind of) as mocacinno showed in this post. 

Please let's be realistic, they are doing the same thing like smartphones and they even want to evolve their hardware wallet into phone
They don't have the work power to handle updates for all three active devices (they already have 3 or 4 defunct devices) unless they move their factory like Apple in China or hire other slave workers.
This is just my speculation, and we can always return to this post in future and see if I was wrong with my prediction

[Pmalek]

<Snip>

It's not really a revolutionary prediction you are making there. A new product is getting developed that is meant to eliminate the shortcomings of its forerunner. Once released, it makes the old device less attractive and outdated. Isn't that the way that technology works outside the scope of hardware wallets as well?

I am just saying that it's going to take time. The production of the old Nano S could stop in a month, but you are still going to be able to use your device and they will surely keep making software upgrades for it as well for some time until their clients either purchase a newer Ledger brand or switch to a different company all together. 

[NeuroticFish]

Please let's be realistic, they are doing the same thing like smartphones and they even want to evolve their hardware wallet into phone

It's obvious that, like any commercial company, all they care about is to earn money. And forcing their user off an older product in order to make them buy again is... unfortunately too common and Ledger is clearly doing the same.

I am just saying that it's going to take time. The production of the old Nano S could stop in a month, but you are still going to be able to use your device and they will surely keep making software upgrades for it as well for some time until their clients either purchase a newer Ledger brand or switch to a different company all together. 

They can easily halt the software upgrades whenever they want. Their production for Nano S may be already stopped or may be at the end of this year.
Still, I agree that it should take time. Of course, it depends on how hungry/evil they are. Normally it should take at least one more year from now until the updates will end, but who knows?

---
Also, something you both didn't say (or I've missed) : it also depends on how other software will behave. I mean that unless something fundamental changes or some big flaw is found, I don't see why Electrum wouldn't support the Nano S for many more years after Ledger stops updating it.

[Pmalek]

They can easily halt the software upgrades whenever they want.

Sure, but do you think that it would be a smart business decision to tell their clients: you know what, all those Nano S's you bought, are now useless? From tomorrow, you wont be able to connect to Ledger Live. Hahah, suckers.

Also, something you both didn't say (or I've missed) : it also depends on how other software will behave. I mean that unless something fundamental changes or some big flaw is found, I don't see why Electrum wouldn't support the Nano S for many more years after Ledger stops updating it.

Good point. But there is still the issue of not being able to update your Bitcoin crypto app or install the newest firmware. In case your Ledger resets itself, you wont be able to configure it without accessing Ledger Live and downloading the BTC app as well. But yeah, Electrum should still work.

[NeuroticFish]

Sure, but do you think that it would be a smart business decision to tell their clients: you know what, all those Nano S's you bought, are now useless? From tomorrow, you wont be able to connect to Ledger Live. Hahah, suckers.

They can tell that for whatever reason the update is no longer compatible with the old hardware (see how Win11 update does it), they can simply tell in a year or two that old hardware is no longer supported, they can say nothing, just release update only for the newer HW (and make sure it won't work on Nano S), in the same way the older smartphones no longer get any kind of updates. There are plenty of ways to do it.
And Ledger's image is already going down, so they can't do much more harm to it

But there is still the issue of not being able to update your Bitcoin crypto app or install the newest firmware. In case your Ledger resets itself, you wont be able to configure it without accessing Ledger Live and downloading the BTC app as well. But yeah, Electrum should still work.

Clearly. From that point on, the Nano S user will be "walking on thin ice". He has to acknowledge that his device will - sooner or later - become thrash.
But what can he do? If he's transacting a lot, he clearly has to buy new device in the moment the old device is no longer supported. If he's using it seldom and any transaction can wait, all he has to do is to make sure the seed he wrote down is indeed good (easy to achieve with a Tails stick, offline), and wait for the device's complete end-of-life.

[dkbit98]

It's obvious that, like any commercial company, all they care about is to earn money. And forcing their user off an older product in order to make them buy again is... unfortunately too common and Ledger is clearly doing the same.

Nobody is forcing people to switch to new android smarphone devices but many people do it because phones stop working after few years, apps are not supported, etc.
You will notice that Ledger is doing exact same thing, but hardware wallet should not be the same as phones and communication device consumer products.
Ledger can always create new apps that will not be compatible with nano S and that would make it useless.

Also, something you both didn't say (or I've missed) : it also depends on how other software will behave. I mean that unless something fundamental changes or some big flaw is found, I don't see why Electrum wouldn't support the Nano S for many more years after Ledger stops updating it.

Answer to you question would be that you can't really use Electrum wallet now with older ledger devices like Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue.
On the other hand, first ever hardware wallet device Trezor One is still working just fine with Electrum, so you see the difference.
I am just saying that people who buy ledger nano S device now are basically wasting their money, clear and simple.

[NeuroticFish]

Nobody is forcing people to switch to new android smarphone devices but many people do it because phones stop working after few years, apps are not supported, etc.

Actually they do work, just certain apps won't work on won't update.
(I do agree with your conclusion though).

Answer to you question would be that you can't really use Electrum wallet now with older ledger devices like Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue.
On the other hand, first ever hardware wallet device Trezor One is still working just fine with Electrum, so you see the difference.
I am just saying that people who buy ledger nano S device now are basically wasting their money, clear and simple.

I don't know how long after the production has stopped they have become (more or less) unusable. It could give us a hint for what to expect, although it also depends on what vulnerabilities are found and when.
For example, you can see here an obsolete Ledger HW.1 still working, although only with legacy addresses (including nested SegWit).
So, while I agree more than 90% with you, I find you a bit too harsh 


Something else has also occurred to me. Although they'll discontinue Nano S, after some while, I expect that for many years to come they'll get support tickets from people keeping their money on a Nano S and "now" no longer working.

[DaveF]

Serious thought, Ledger has already made it 100% clear that they don't care about their customers. They are not even trying to hide it. But they are selling a ton of devices. So, the question is WHAT are they doing that other manufacturers are not? And if the other manufacturers do the same will they pull sales from Ledger? And if not why not? This is something we should be discussing. I have my own thoughts, but I am interested in what other people think.

It's also a developer's duty (in my opinion) to consider the device's capabilities that the software is made to run on. If you have to develop software for an extremely limited embedded device, that should allow users to install extra stuff onto it, you better focus on actually leaving them space to do so.

A bit of snark.
Introductions:
n0nce this is reality, reality this is n0nce apparently you never met each other yet :-)

I have been playing with PCs and tech since the mid 1980s, been actively in the IT support world since the late 1980s
From PCs, embedded devices and the like all the way up to full big iron servers developers have always been trying to see how much the hardware can handle then going beyond what it can do. Adding features at the sacrifice of things working properly. I dislike Ledger and the way that they do things. But it's been going on for more then 30 years that I can prove so I would guess it's been going on much longer then that.

-Dave

[SFR10]

he basically said that Ledger is just a shitcoin wallet that is probably going to evolve into phone

Imagine having to deal with way more faulty features than we're already seeing after each of the updates, on their current line-up... No, thanks

Maybe they are giving up on both the Nano S and X.

That's also bound to happen at some point for the Nano X, but I don't think they'll be doing it at the same time ^{[e.g. fewer sales]} + based on "this" post, it appears that in the near future, they might be releasing it with their "new logo".

in the same way the older smartphones no longer get any kind of updates. There are plenty of ways to do it.

I have limited knowledge when it comes to how they've handled the updates for the previous generations, but it'd be nice to at least see some security updates from time to time!
^{- I'm using a Samsung phone that stopped receiving software updates in the past year or two, but it's still receiving security updates regularly [depending on the device, I believe it's going to be for 4 to 5 years].}

But they are selling a ton of devices. So, the question is WHAT are they doing that other manufacturers are not?

Perhaps, they've unlocked the secret to how easily manipulate potential buyers...

[Pmalek]

But they are selling a ton of devices. So, the question is WHAT are they doing that other manufacturers are not? And if the other manufacturers do the same will they pull sales from Ledger? And if not why not?

Marketing and social media engagement could be one reason. On Facebook, Ledger has 57k followers, Trezor only 30k. Ledger's Twitter page is followed by 267k people, Trezor only has 158k. Ledger has a YouTube channel with 35k subscribers, Trezor's is only followed by 1.8k. Ledger releases several videos a week, Trezor released only 4 in the last 3 months.

If you do a Google search of "hardware wallet", Ledger's official site is the first result you will see. It's followed by several guides and articles and then you will find Trezor's official site towards the bottom of the first page results.

All that shows that Ledger is easier to find and come across. You see their content more frequently on social media and YouTube. Whether people like that or not, it works. I am sure they have many more partnerships with brands from the crypto sphere than Trezor. I think they just announced one with the FTX exchange a few days ago. Everyone using that exchange will probably see the Ledger branding somewhere, and they won't see the same for Trezor.

Ledger has also had it native app (Ledger Live) much longer than Trezor had its Trezor Suite. Love it or hate it, it was still there. You can use it for trading, staking, exchanging, for DeFi, soon for NFTs, etc. None of that might appeal to hardcore bitcoiners, but obviously tens and hundreds of thousands of people like it.   

That's also bound to happen at some point for the Nano X, but I don't think they'll be doing it at the same time ^{[e.g. fewer sales]} + based on "this" post, it appears that in the near future, they might be releasing it with their "new logo".

For sure. They have already rebranded Ledger Live some time ago and they will surely do the same with the hardware wallets. They just have to sell the old stock first.

[dkbit98]

Serious thought, Ledger has already made it 100% clear that they don't care about their customers. They are not even trying to hide it. But they are selling a ton of devices. So, the question is WHAT are they doing that other manufacturers are not?

Ledger indeed sold millions of their devices so far, and I tried to find some official information how much devices are sold by other hardware wallet manufacturers.
It's not easy to find exact data and some of them didn't want to reveal this info, but what I know is that Trezor also sold over one million devices, but they made first ever hardware wallet in the word so no wonder.
I think that Ledger have better marketing strategy and they are willing to work with anyone including centralized exchanges like Coinbase,
they probably have better funding, and and they have hidden signed agreements, maybe even with government agencies for spying people.
Ledger is also part of DCG - Digital Currency Group with 165 companies including Chainalysis, Coindesk, etc. so that may be one more reason.

Imagine having to deal with way more faulty features than we're already seeing after each of the updates, on their current line-up... No, thanks

Maybe next step from them is to make ledger hardware wallet brain implant, and I am sure that many people would accept this phone/wallet spying nightmare.
Everyone should read latest interview of Ledger CEO Pascal Gauthier to see how optimistic and ambitious he is:

Do you envision the Ledger device evolving into a phone, like the iPhone, that can do a lot of things?

Potentially. And it's a future that Ledger is ready for in the sense that we are developing technology that can be embedded into a phone. But you have to redesign the phone completely. You will have to compromise on some of the phone’s functionality. This is why it's such a challenging problem.

https://www.protocol.com/fintech/ledger-crypto-wallet-pascal-gauthier

[n0nce]

It's also a developer's duty (in my opinion) to consider the device's capabilities that the software is made to run on. If you have to develop software for an extremely limited embedded device, that should allow users to install extra stuff onto it, you better focus on actually leaving them space to do so.

A bit of snark.
Introductions:
n0nce this is reality, reality this is n0nce apparently you never met each other yet :-)

I guess you're right, that developers always try to squeeze out the most out of the available hardware - even to this day. However, these days I see this mostly for example in AAA games, where sometimes at launch date nobody really owns the hardware to run them. But I feel like 'getting the most out of the hardware' should also mean making it run as good as possible, for as long as possible. I noticed in recent years smartphones running longer and better than in the past, where a 2013 application could slow a 2012 phone down to the point of 'unusability'.
Also, just because a bad practice is going on for a long time, doesn't mean it should continue. Especially if a manufacturer makes both the hardware and the software, they need to make sure it runs. If they're different, they can always blame it on the other party; but that's not the case with Ledger and their Ledger apps.

[tyz]

Have used the Ledger Nano S before and as far as the display is concerned, I can only agree with the OP. It is very cheaply produced and does not last long. After the display broke, I have no longer used a HW wallet.

But I am about to buy a new HW wallet. What do you guys think is the best option right now? The software should be open source and the memory should be enough to manage at least 10 coins. Is Ledger Nano X a good option?

[SFR10]

After the display broke, I have no longer used a HW wallet.

Did you drop it or you're still referring to the third point in OP?

The software should be open source and the memory should be enough to manage at least 10 coins. Is Ledger Nano X a good option?

Since the firmware that's being used in it isn't open-source, it doesn't tick all the boxes... As a Trezor user, I'm quite happy with mine, but it doesn't come with a "secure element".
^{- Open Source Hardware Wallets}

[dkbit98]

Have used the Ledger Nano S before and as far as the display is concerned, I can only agree with the OP. It is very cheaply produced and does not last long. After the display broke, I have no longer used a HW wallet.

You can easily order and replace that display yourself, order it online from from one many websites that sell them likethis one for example, and follow this video instructions.
If you need any help you can write in this topic, and people will help you if you get stuck somewhere during this process.
Ledger should also release new device ledger nano s plus in 2022 and they improved display and made it bigger.

But I am about to buy a new HW wallet. What do you guys think is the best option right now? The software should be open source and the memory should be enough to manage at least 10 coins. Is Ledger Nano X a good option?

I would not suggesting anyone to waste money purchasing ledger nano X for several reasons, it's closed source, many people recently reported battery and firmware update issues.
More information about this can be found in my topic Ledger Nano X Battery Pandemic.

My suggestion for everyone is to think about purchasing and supporting Open Source hardware wallets, or simply use offline computer with software wallet.
List of hardware wallets supporting more coins like you want:

- Trezor
- Bitbox
- Keystone

[Eyedol-X]

Have used the Ledger Nano S before and as far as the display is concerned, I can only agree with the OP. It is very cheaply produced and does not last long. After the display broke, I have no longer used a HW wallet.

You can easily order and replace that display yourself, order it online from from one many websites that sell them likethis one for example, and follow this video instructions.
If you need any help you can write in this topic, and people will help you if you get stuck somewhere during this process.
Ledger should also release new device ledger nano s plus in 2022 and they improved display and made it bigger.

But I am about to buy a new HW wallet. What do you guys think is the best option right now? The software should be open source and the memory should be enough to manage at least 10 coins. Is Ledger Nano X a good option?

I would not suggesting anyone to waste money purchasing ledger nano X for several reasons, it's closed source, many people recently reported battery and firmware update issues.
More information about this can be found in my topic Ledger Nano X Battery Pandemic.

My suggestion for everyone is to think about purchasing and supporting Open Source hardware wallets, or simply use offline computer with software wallet.
List of hardware wallets supporting more coins like you want:

- Trezor
- Bitbox
- Keystone

I had some of the same Ledger concerns shared in this thread but to me they are absolved if you're willing to buy 2-3 wallets at a time and shelve/store them securely after verifying they work. I didn't like the data breach Ledger had but these things happen, even to governments. Batteries and screens also fail over time, no electronic device is exempt to it. I want to be clear that I'm not knocking open source here either though, I'm just saying I don't share the grave concern here as to why Ledger is that bad in comparison to other options out there.

However, with the above in mind and if I was buying right now, I really like the way Keystone is going, especially when it comes to the point of batteries issues over time.

Lastly, no way I'd use Ledger for FIDO and I don't suggest anyone use any hardware wallet for that purpose either, simply because you're putting too many eggs in one basket if you ask me.

[dkbit98]

However, with the above in mind and if I was buying right now, I really like the way Keystone is going, especially when it comes to the point of batteries issues over time.

I also like Keystone approach on many things, but I have my concerns and complains for them also.
For example, they are still not supporting Segwit addresses and Taproot support will come maybe in 2022 but just for Bitcoinonly firmare.
Second thing is that we don't exactly know what secure element they use because they never disclosed that information.
If you ask me, I am waiting to see first fully open source hardware wallet from Trezor, Square or maybe someone else who knows.

Lastly, no way I'd use Ledger for FIDO and I don't suggest anyone use any hardware wallet for that purpose either, simply because you're putting too many eggs in one basket if you ask me.

Adding FIDO 2FA is cool feature in theory, and it would be nice to use one device only for that, but my issue is what happens if device gets broken or firmware update messes up everything.
You can't use any backup on other FIDO devices and you must buy new ledger, or your can't log-in on your account anymore.
 

[Pmalek]

But I am about to buy a new HW wallet. What do you guys think is the best option right now? The software should be open source and the memory should be enough to manage at least 10 coins. Is Ledger Nano X a good option?

My Nano S works just fine for several years, but I would never upgrade it to the Nano X. I am against the idea of Bluetooth, a battery (especially following the fiasco with all those battery hardware problems that the Nano X had), and I don't need storage space for 100 coins. I wouldn't be able to write down 100 coins to save my life. And neither could those who say that is the reason for their purchase of a Nano X.

However, it would be nice if the Nano S could at least support 4-5 installed coins at once. But it doesn't.
Based on what is available right now. I would probably take one of the two Trezor HWs. Just make sure you extend your seed with a long and secure passphrase. But don't expect to get one of those until February either, unless you are purchasing one from an official reseller who still has some.