Why I wouldn't buy Ledger Nano S ever again?

[NeuroticFish]

That's really messed up! Is there a way to check and track if they've been using different developers lately ^{[from their Github page]}?
^{- I don't know my way around GitHub.}

From what I understand, there are 51 contributors. With some patience and playing around with selection on the first chart, this can be found out.
https://github.com/LedgerHQ/ledger-live-desktop/graphs/contributors

But I think that it's irrelevant, since as you also said, the problem is most probably the (lack of) memory.
Before my last update, my Nano S had Bitcoin, Ethereum, Fido U2F and 10k free space. After updating firmware and apps I have only 6k free space. 4k can easily make the difference.

Imagine you use Fido U2F on your ledger for some important log in, well you are screwed now, thanks to ledger dev team :/

Can't an user remove another coin's app, install Fido and use it? Or some related data is lost? (I've installed Fido U2F not long ago for tests and didn't get to do any.)

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[SFR10]

their developers have multiple jobs so they are also reddit moderators  

For real ^{[I didn't know that]}?

Maybe this is their way to stop production of nano s device and force everyone to switch to nano x or some other new device they release.
They can always blame small memory etc.

Before my last update, my Nano S had Bitcoin, Ethereum, Fido U2F and 10k free space. After updating firmware and apps I have only 6k free space. 4k can easily make the difference.

@dkbit98: That's a valid point and judging by NeuroticFish's comment and the rate that it has increased recently, I wouldn't be surprised to see them end its support in a year or two!
^{- Even though it's quite normal for tech companies to ditch their older products while replacing them with new/better products, the manner in which they seem to be doing it is unethical.}

From what I understand, there are 51 contributors. With some patience and playing around with selection on the first chart, this can be found out.
https://github.com/LedgerHQ/ledger-live-desktop/graphs/contributors

Thank you for providing that link ^{[hopefully, I'd be able to easily spot the differences]}

But I think that it's irrelevant, since as you also said, the problem is most probably the (lack of) memory.

The one I mentioned it's a separate issue... From what I've understood, the Fido U2F app it's not showing up on the Ledger Live.

[NeuroticFish]

But I think that it's irrelevant, since as you also said, the problem is most probably the (lack of) memory.

The one I mentioned it's a separate issue... From what I've understood, the Fido U2F app it's not showing up on the Ledger Live.

That is incorrect. I've made a screenshot, search does return Fido U2F.



The thing is that after the firmware update there are no apps at all and it asks if you want to reinstall them. If there's no space for them, some may not be reinstalled and I don't know if it returns a proper error message or not.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them end its support in a year or two!

I would be even more disappointed if this would happen. They still sell Nano S, you know...
And even if the firmware won't be updated (except very big security problems), the apps still evolve. It doesn't matter if it'll be only Bitcoin app that fits, I'd expect that after a while, but no actually end of support, not yet. Maybe 2-3 years after they stop selling it...

[bitmover]

I think all points are somewhat valid , but none of them are a deal breaker to me.

Certainly closed source software is the worst of those points, but not all their software is closed software.  I think o ly ledger live is closed source  but the firmware isn't . They do not have a malicious code in their software,  they are not stealing people's money and actually it is one of the most secure ways of store btc. I trust much more ledger live than some random one  source software  .

Being open means it is auditable,  not that it was audited

Memory is not a problem at all. Install and Uninstall those apps take literally 10 seconds and you wouldn't be doing that so frequently (if you are, you are doing something wrong)

About LED , plastic, etc, that is what you pay for. Ledger nano is extremely cheap.

What really think is important in a hardware wallet is the capability to generate private keys in a safe environment.  Once the keys are generated and I have properly backed them up I don't need ledger live support or a beautiful plastic anymore.

I can just use that seed in any software and recove may btc,  which I know are safe, even after 10 years. Ledger nano can do that nearly flawlessly,  and I am pretty satisfied because it fits my needs.

I know other people may have other needs.

[Pmalek]

It appears that the memory issue that you've described before, took another hit ^{[thanks to the latest firmware]}

I think it already took a hit before this firmware was released because several standalone crypto apps increased in size significantly. Bitcoin's app is a particularly big one.

The thing is that after the firmware update there are no apps at all and it asks if you want to reinstall them. If there's no space for them, some may not be reinstalled and I don't know if it returns a proper error message or not.

Of course, that's just logical. You can't fit more apps than it's theoretically possible.

Memory is not a problem at all. Install and Uninstall those apps take literally 10 seconds and you wouldn't be doing that so frequently (if you are, you are doing something wrong)

If you bought a hardware wallet with limited storage capabilities, why complain about the wallet's limited storage capabilities? The software will of course get bigger in size with new features, fixes, and improvements. How can you expect that won't reduce the available space?   

About LED , plastic, etc, that is what you pay for. Ledger nano is extremely cheap.

Exactly. You bought a plastic hardware wallet with LED display of a very small size. Live with it or purchase one made of a stronger material and bigger screen.

The biggest problem with this upgrade, if it turns out to be true, would be that the Fido U2F app no longer works. NeuroticFish has already shown that he can find it amongst the installable apps. The only question now is whether or not it works. Does anyone know if there are issues if this app gets installed/reinstalled? 

[dkbit98]

Surprise, surprise... ledger nano s memory space is reduced yet again from 144kb to 138Kb, that means that ledger lied before when they said that space reduction is only temporary.
I am expecting memory to continue reducing in future.

That is incorrect. I've made a screenshot, search does return Fido U2F.

It was not incorrect, because even ledger engineer developer/moderator confirmed that FIDO app was NOT available:

The Fido application is back in the Manager. We apologise for the short inconvenience, please let me know if you have been able to install it!

https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7gghr/comment/hn42yn4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Looks like this issue is fixed now, but it shows again that ledger devs are amateurs and I would not used Fido with ledger ever again.

[NeuroticFish]

Surprise, surprise... ledger nano s memory space is reduced yet again from 144kb to 138Kb, that means that ledger lied before when they said that space reduction is only temporary.
I am expecting memory to continue reducing in future.

Whoever doesn't expect that is...unrealistic.

That is incorrect. I've made a screenshot, search does return Fido U2F.

It was not incorrect, because even ledger engineer developer/moderator confirmed that FIDO app was NOT available:

The Fido application is back in the Manager. We apologise for the short inconvenience, please let me know if you have been able to install it!

https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/r7gghr/comment/hn42yn4/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

Oh, so in the meanwhile they've put it back. Interesting. Thank you.

[Pmalek]

I am expecting memory to continue reducing in future.

Of course it will. Computer code consists of lines of various instructions and actions. If you extend an app's codebase, it's only logical that it will become bigger and be made up of more characters. If you have a text file in Word, for example, on one page and you write an additional page, you can't expect that the size of the final product will be smaller or even the same as it was before. Unless they find a more efficient method to compress or shorten the code (which I doubt), the internal storage of the Nano S will continue to shrink. Those using the device can either accept that or switch to something more powerful. 

[m2017]

I am expecting memory to continue reducing in future.

Of course it will. Computer code consists of lines of various instructions and actions. If you extend an app's codebase, it's only logical that it will become bigger and be made up of more characters. If you have a text file in Word, for example, on one page and you write an additional page, you can't expect that the size of the final product will be smaller or even the same as it was before. Unless they find a more efficient method to compress or shorten the code (which I doubt), the internal storage of the Nano S will continue to shrink. Those using the device can either accept that or switch to something more powerful. 

Or the reason may be different, for example, Ledger adds a backdoor or something like that. We can't check because of the hidden source code. It's hard not to be paranoid about a company that has been damaging its credibility after losing its users' data. Whatever the representatives of the company say after that, the attitude towards them will never be the same.

[LTU_btc]

You have valid points, but I don't see much point to complain much about device which was released 5 years ago and never been considered as high end product.
1. Closed Source - well, you probably knew about it when you bought this wallet, nothing has changed through all these years. For some people it's not big deal. If someone discovered that Ledger is closed source only after they have bought it, it's their fault, not Ledger.
2. Small Memory. It's always been case with Ledger. Install/Uninstall is a bit inconvenient thing, but for peoplewho keep BTC mainly I think it's not an issue. But if you keep 1032 different coins/tokens, you can get Nano X with bigger memory.
3. Display dies after few years. I haven't heard about this issue before this topic and I guess it doesn't happens often. Keeping device properly can help to avoid such issue.
4. Cheap plastic body. I would like if Nano S would be rugged, but then I guess it wouldn't cost $60 and price of it would be way above $100.
5. Nano S could soon be discontinued. Well, nothing lasts forever. Same like Windows discontinue to support old versions or phone manufacturers stop giving updates to old phones. But you still can use it, same like you still can acces your crypto on old Ledger devices. I remember some guesses that Ledger amy discontinue Nano S, soon after release of Nano X, but I think 1.5 year already passed and it didn't happened.
6. Bad Multisig support. Personally I don't need this thing, but yeah, I must agree about it.
7. Leaking personal information. That's big issue, it seriously hit Ledger reputation, but because of it device itself don't become worse.
8. Bad support. I don't have much experience with Ledger support, so I can't comment much about it, but unfortunately, poor support is quite often trend in crypto business. Though, it's not excuse for Ledger.
To summarize everything, Ledger is far from being perfect, but I think it's not worth to have very big expectations about old device for $60. It's same like you don't expect that 5 year old mid range phone will work better than new flagship or Toyota Prius will be better than Tesla Model S.
Now I wouldn't buy Nano S, but 4 or 5 year ago when I bought it, it wasn't an bad option.

[Pmalek]

3. Display dies after few years. I haven't heard about this issue before this topic and I guess it doesn't happens often. Keeping device properly can help to avoid such issue.

And that isn't any different from modern TV sets where you also start experiencing display issues once the warranty runs out. Electronic gadgets nowadays aren't created to last forever. You are a customer, and the companies want you to be just satisfied enough to purchase a second and third gadget once those you bought in the past break.

4. Cheap plastic body. I would like if Nano S would be rugged, but then I guess it wouldn't cost $60 and price of it would be way above $100.

Honestly, I don't see what the fuss regarding its plastic cover is all about. I have had mine for several years and there is nothing wrong with it. I take it out when I need to perform some transactions and put it back in its nice little hiding when it's not being used. It was never meant to be a chew toy for your dog.

7. Leaking personal information.

From a privacy perspective, this was an awful event. But when Shopify was hacked and had its data leaked, multiple businesses were affected. Any other crypto company or hardware manufacturer could have been on the list of those that got hacked. This time it was Ledger. But it's bad that it happened twice. The second leak came from their own servers and not Shopify's.

Now I wouldn't buy Nano S, but 4 or 5 year ago when I bought it, it wasn't an bad option.

If I had to select between a Nano S and X today, I would still pick the S version. I don't need an internal memory for 1000 apps, I am not even using 10. The screen size is also not something I worry about. The address does get divided in 3 when you compare and verify it against the one that is being shown in LL or Electrum. But it really isn't that difficult to press the same button twice to display the other parts of the address.

[m2017]

1. Closed Source - well, you probably knew about it when you bought this wallet, nothing has changed through all these years. For some people it's not big deal. If someone discovered that Ledger is closed source only after they have bought it, it's their fault, not Ledger.

Closed Source - Yes, it doesn't matter to users, like me, for example. Even if the code were open source, it would not change anything for me, since I am not an expert in this. I think many of the users, like me, are not technically savvy in codes.

But wouldn't you agree with me that this poses a potential threat? It cannot be ruled out that the company deliberately or unintentionally (due to access by intruders. This has already happened with Ledger) may make changes to the source code that could cause damage to users' funds. The saddest part of this may be that it may be too late until the problem is discovered.

Common users want security, but closed source doesn't inspire confidence.

2. Small Memory. It's always been case with Ledger. Install/Uninstall is a bit inconvenient thing, but for peoplewho keep BTC mainly I think it's not an issue. But if you keep 1032 different coins/tokens, you can get Nano X with bigger memory.

Small Memory. - It is not clear to me whether it is technically difficult to increase the device's memory. The amount of memory that Ledger offers is ridiculous for 2021. 138Kb would have been acceptable in the 80s and 90s  .

3. Display dies after few years. I haven't heard about this issue before this topic and I guess it doesn't happens often. Keeping device properly can help to avoid such issue.

Display - It's the same here. Aren't there other more reliable options? It seemed to me that in our age of technological progress, a solution can always be found.

4. Cheap plastic body. I would like if Nano S would be rugged, but then I guess it wouldn't cost $60 and price of it would be way above $100.

Cheap plastic - I can't believe that a slightly higher quality plastic will increase the price so much. But it would help users to avoid unnecessary breakdowns, but it would deprive the company of new sales. It is sad that manufacturers are trying to make a profit in all possible ways and the quality of modern technology is an example of this. The sooner the device breaks down, the faster the buyer will buy a new one. "Nothing personal just business" - this is the spirit of our time 

It is not clear to me why Ledger cannot create a device by eliminating these physical defects. For example, how Apple did it with the release of iPhone SE, i.e. improving iPhone 5S. It would be possible to win over buyers in this way. Instead of spending the company's budget on advertising and other nonsense, it would be better to channel these funds in the right direction, which I described above. Create a quality product and no advertising is needed.
 

7. Leaking personal information. That's big issue, it seriously hit Ledger reputation, but because of it device itself don't become worse.

Ledger device itself does not get worse, but the safety of funds for them is under threat (why was this device created?), because it creates an attack vector through the users themselves.

The pinned message on the Ledger's subreddit looks ironic after awful events https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/comments/ck6o44/be_careful_phishing_attacks_in_progress/
Still, how can this not be in progress, after they allowed the data leak.

8. Bad support. I don't have much experience with Ledger support, so I can't comment much about it, but unfortunately, poor support is quite often trend in crypto business. Though, it's not excuse for Ledger.

Bad support - To speed up the processing of your problem, you can try to write about it in the company's subreddit https://www.reddit.com/r/ledgerwallet/.

To summarize everything, Ledger is far from being perfect, but I think it's not worth to have very big expectations about old device for $60. It's same like you don't expect that 5 year old mid range phone will work better than new flagship or Toyota Prius will be better than Tesla Model S.
Now I wouldn't buy Nano S, but 4 or 5 year ago when I bought it, it wasn't an bad option.

Yes, I agree that the Nano S in its current form is far from perfect, but I am more inclined to conclude that it is not worth the $60.

Again, I agree with you that I would not buy a device in this form even now. Perhaps, I would pay attention to the device if the above drawbacks (including those that I missed) were eliminated.

How do you think you should draw the company's attention to these issues by posting a thread on their subreddit? And by voicing what changes in the model S the community would like to see.

[n0nce]

It's totally misleading that Ledger writes on their websites how Nano S is supporting 1100+ coins and app to 6 apps installed on your device, but in reality you can't install more than 2 or 3 apps.

Don't laugh, please.. When I read something like this I always thought it supported e.g. 1100 coins contemporaneously. LOL epic fail, when you advertise like this and the customer can only realistically use less than 10 coins at any given time... It's not like SPI flash is expensive, and it wasn't in 2017 either.

Just an example:

NOR Flash 256Mb HyperRAM x8, 200MHz, Ind temp, 1.8V

It's 3€ for 32MB if I understand correctly (and you order 500 units).

[dkbit98]

Don't laugh, please.. When I read something like this I always thought it supported e.g. 1100 coins contemporaneously. LOL epic fail, when you advertise like this and the customer can only realistically use less than 10 coins at any given time... It's not like SPI flash is expensive, and it wasn't in 2017 either.

It's even worse situation, because on their new redesigned website ledger live app have even bigger list of supported coins to over 1800  

It's 3€ for 32MB if I understand correctly (and you order 500 units).

Do you think it's possible to open ledger device and replace memory with bigger memory, making it DIY ledger that will support more coins?  
I know that ledger nano x have bigger memory but I am not sure how big it is exactly.

[n0nce]

I am expecting memory to continue reducing in future.

Of course it will. Computer code consists of lines of various instructions and actions. If you extend an app's codebase, it's only logical that it will become bigger and be made up of more characters. If you have a text file in Word, for example, on one page and you write an additional page, you can't expect that the size of the final product will be smaller or even the same as it was before. Unless they find a more efficient method to compress or shorten the code (which I doubt), the internal storage of the Nano S will continue to shrink. Those using the device can either accept that or switch to something more powerful. 

I disagree. Often, during software development when you built something, it wasn't all the most perfect, efficient code. So when you maintain your software properly, instead of (as you described) just adding more and more stuff - which would be called 'bloating' the software - you should focus on improving it by simplifying things and the codebase can definitely shrink over time.

It's also a developer's duty (in my opinion) to consider the device's capabilities that the software is made to run on. If you have to develop software for an extremely limited embedded device, that should allow users to install extra stuff onto it, you better focus on actually leaving them space to do so.

It's as if Apple would release an iOS update that fills up 50GB of the phone's storage for the OS, leaving just 14GB for data, for instance. Meanwhile releasing a game on Steam that is 50GB in size, could be more reasonable. Developers should keep in mind the hardware before publishing a bloated firmware that deletes existing apps..

Don't laugh, please.. When I read something like this I always thought it supported e.g. 1100 coins contemporaneously. LOL epic fail, when you advertise like this and the customer can only realistically use less than 10 coins at any given time... It's not like SPI flash is expensive, and it wasn't in 2017 either.

It's even worse situation, because on their new redesigned website ledger live app have even bigger list of supported coins to over 1800 

Damn How can you release a firmware that got larger than before and at the same time offer more coins? They really don't think things true. I mean I couldn't care less for shitcoin support. But if I'd try to offer people more coins, I'd try to do it in a way that it's actually possible to also use more simultaneously.

It's 3€ for 32MB if I understand correctly (and you order 500 units).

Do you think it's possible to open ledger device and replace memory with bigger memory, making it DIY ledger that will support more coins? 
I know that ledger nano x have bigger memory but I am not sure how big it is exactly.

It's not an unreasonable idea. It was done by the Homebrew community on the Game & Watch for example. It would help knowing if the memory is on- or off-chip and what package it uses.

[Pmalek]

Or the reason may be different, for example, Ledger adds a backdoor or something like that. We can't check because of the hidden source code.

But if the code was public you would be able to spot that instantly, wouldn't you? You actually answered that in your next post, so it's just a rhetorical question. Open-source software is always the better option, but let's not kid ourselves. A big majority of people have no knowledge about coding, they are just drawn to the idea that it's public and verifiable. There is nothing wrong with that, but it would be interesting to do a test and modify a bit of a code to make it seem malicious and wait to see how much time it will take for people to spot it. Obviously no one would want to do that and mess with their company's reputation. I don't think there are more than 10 people on this forum with the technical skills to understand each line of code. Even if there were more, how many of them are active checking each new release and code modification?   

It's hard not to be paranoid about a company that has been damaging its credibility after losing its users' data. Whatever the representatives of the company say after that, the attitude towards them will never be the same.

I can't disagree. As a Ledger user myself, that HW is no longer my first choice if I needed a new one. But let's separate privacy concerns from the safety of funds. The hardware wallet does what it was designed to do. It was designed to keep your private keys safe.

Everything that happened with the database leaks is surely not something they did intentionally. Why would they introduce a backdoor now? If that was the goal all along, wouldn't it have made more sense doing it while their reputation was better to affect as many people as possible? The battery problem is a different matter. That's Ledger's mistake and the fault with those working on assembling the devices. 

[dkbit98]

It's not an unreasonable idea. It was done by the Homebrew community on the Game & Watch for example. It would help knowing if the memory is on- or off-chip and what package it uses.

They are constantly changing some stuff on their PCBs, but if we look their website we can see all the elements inside, and I can recognize STM Microcontroller and ST31H320 secure element, but I am not sure about memory.
I am not familiar with other components on the board, but maybe memory that is used is from secure element, ST31H320 has up to 320 Kbytes of secure high-density user flash memory.
Nano X is using different model of secure element ST33J2M0 that has up to 2048 Kbytes of user flash memory.


https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404382029329-Check-hardware-integrity?support=true

[dkbit98]

5. Nano S could soon be discontinued

Achtung achtung! Attention Attention!
I am not a prophet but I can think with my head and here comes confirmation of my words I previously wrote multiple times even in this topic.
Reason for Ledger Nano S constantly reducing space for apps is now very much clear to everyone who wants to see.

Pascal Gauthier CEO and Chairman of Ledger announced at ledgerop3n that Ledger will release NEW Ledger Nano S device that will support more coins, more apps, and bigger screen.
That means that current Nano S device is not going to be manufactured anymore and soon it will not be supported with updates, exactly the same thing happened with Ledger HW.1, Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue devices.
I also saw his recent interview for Protocol and Gauthier said that his biggest competition hardware wallet will be upcoming Block wallet developed by jack Dorsey team.
He said that Ledger is not focused on Bitcoin like Block and he basically said that Ledger is just a shitcoin wallet that is probably going to evolve into phone
https://www.protocol.com/fintech/ledger-crypto-wallet-pascal-gauthier


https://twitter.com/Ledger/status/1468869997510418433

Conclusion:
Ledger Nano S will be discontinued soon, so don't waste your money purchasing it now.

[n0nce]

~

I'm not sure I can spot a dedicated memory chip anywhere on there. The very small storage space indeed hints at them just using the STM's internal memory. If that's the case, there's no experiments regarding 'extending storage' possible.

[Pmalek]

Pascal Gauthier CEO and Chairman of Ledger announced at ledgerop3n that Ledger will release NEW Ledger Nano S device that will support more coins, more apps, and bigger screen.
That means that current Nano S device is not going to be manufactured anymore and soon it will not be supported with updates, exactly the same thing happened with Ledger HW.1, Ledger Nano, Ledger Unplugged and Ledger Blue devices.

It is possible that the production will stop at one point in the future. The new Nano S Plus seems like a bigger competitor to the Nano X than to the old Nano S though. Bigger screen, better secure element, more internal memory, but no crap like Bluetooth or faulty internal battery. Maybe they are giving up on both the Nano S and X.