Bitcoin Forum

what is this, when can i get mine?

http://bitcoincard.org/

"Now, imagine a card that can grant you any wish, even if that wish is for more wishes. What does this card look like? Jesus. Combined with Godzilla.  It also comes with the entire Beatles catalog in .ogg format that you can play directly into your brain through tiny lasers that combine to form an ad-hoc laser network to signal Batman."

A few Bitcoiners and I are meeting the guys behing BitcoinCard in Europe at the end of the month to talk about US Distribution.

Will keep you all updated!

are you saying this card is for real?

sounds like something out of science fiction movie!

Oh its for real! I was playing around with it at Future of Money Summit on Monday.

The dudes are super cool and LOVE BITCOIN.

Here is his twitter https://twitter.com/#!/shurakuzmin  (https://twitter.com/#!/shurakuzmin)

whoa!! i couldn't even have dreamed of a cooler device!!  

if it transmits wirelessly it'll probably get hacked pretty darn quick, but i guess if this card is advanced enough to change the firmware that could be fixed..

Well yeah, don't get excited too quickly. Because to me, that technology seems vaporware - someone who doesn't really understand how to build technology has gotten couple of really cool ideas, and has made this video. And now he/she is looking for funding. It is all good, but the card is _very_ unrealistic to me.

Yankee (BitInstant)  says its for real

All the advertising shit at the end pisses me off. I hope that is strictly opt-in, and can be disabled. However, I recognize that that is probably the only thing that will sell it to big businesses.  :-\

Umm...I've actually used the product, held it, and met the creators...a few days ago

I think you'd understand if we all said "pics or didn't happen".  :D

rofl yes the card that knows everything about you and sells your information to the lowest bidder has great appeal to the average bitcoin nerd

Heh, of course.

If you check twitter https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/bitcoincard (https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/bitcoincard) you can see people who tweeted it while the presentation was being shown.

In addition, Tony from Bit-Pay was there, Jered from TradeHill, Patrick from Intersango, and a few others were there.

...Just ask them  ;D

So when can we expect the first real life video of this?

Great, a Bitcoin tracking device.  I wonder which government agency is funding this.

Watching the video, I assumed this was just a stock promo from the card manufacturer, but if you look closely it actually says "bitcoincard.org" on there.  So that's interesting.

And I'm going to have to also request pics because this looks like complete vaporware.

Agree. "Pics or it didn't happen!" This is too good to be true.

more information how is work is here and join the discussion any suggestion welcome
"Dedicated bitcoin devices - dealing with untrusted networks"
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77553.msg865040#msg865040

Awesome except

-zero technical info given,  none of us can determine what kind of MITM or potential spamming can be done with it
-hinted at possible tracking and user data mining in the video
-says transactions are 'encrypted' but no info about the text messages
-FCC is impossible to deal with, which is why wireless and radio chip manufacturers in Asia have to come up with binary blobs to deliberately sabotage their own hardware in order to comply with FCC rules, so will probably never be released in the states
-vaporware. why can't anybody just release product anymore without creating hype first

Do you have a better way of getting investment money without working??

1. People with capital to make a product reality rarely innovate.
2. People who innovate rarely have the capital to make the product a reality beyond a few demo devices.
3. Investors are freaked out right now, and it's going to get worse before it gets better.
4. If you can show enough interest (note the "sign up" link),you can convince investors you might have a shot in this rough economic scenario.
5. Even with interest, I would think this would be a tough sell since it needs a huge density of users to be effective.  Unless they can give them away and make money from transactions or something I don't see it happening.  If they can give them away, I would like 1000 to give away, as well as 10 or so ethernet bridges for people to give internet connectivity to the ad-hoc network.

I hope this happens.

Charlie said he used the device, he didn't say it even sends/receives bitcoins. It's a really cool concept but it's not going to work for bitcoin, and the fact that it won't work for Bitcoin is probably why you don't see anything on their website but a video that doesn't refer to bitcoin at all.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Ad-hoc Bitcoin blockchain is MintChip.

Nah... it just needs private keys and a way to check balances and send transactions.  You could have a few trusted servers that sign all messages to verify they haven't been altered.

Hate the dumbed down nature of the video (do you really need to explain "credit-card size" so much).  The only thing you need is a smart card, like the openPGP card, that stores a small wallet in secured storage and that can make transactions.  (Wallet on smart card can be smallish and should be backed up to your desktop so you can move money on and off the card)
Here is how it would work:
1) POS terminal connects to smartcard telling it the amount and the address to send to
2) Smartcard makes transaction and gives it back to the POS terminal (smartcard could be made with a small display for amount and a confirm button so user could verify request before proceeding)
3) POS terminal verifies that it is valid (inputs have the necessary amounts to cover outputs, etc) and uploads transaction to Bitcoin network
4) Profit!  <-- Literally

While there are several reasons to believe that it won't work very well for anything at all, since it looks like it combines about four different technologies that aren't really particularly mature, there's not any reason to think this wouldn't work for Bitcoin.  All you really need is a network connection and some basic processing.

Ok, I can't watch the video right now.  Can someone give me a quick summary of what the card does?

(I hate it when companies release promotional videos without also explaining the content of the video in text form)

The video has absolutely nothing to do with Bitcoin

sure,


for more info http://www.bitcoincard.org/bitcoincard_read_more.php

The first thing that came to mind for me is that its just like the tube thing they had in Max Headroom.

Just call me "Blank Shire"  8)

Thanks.  It does sound like a pipe dream, but I hope they can make it work!

And how did you find that page??  I clicked on all the links from the homepage and they were all under construction...

Judging by the technology they claim they need to make it function, the method they're using to transmit, and the slightly over-the-top claims, I'd say it's highly unlikely in succeeding in this form and that they don't actually have a working system yet (or else we'd be hearing about how people were using it to send bitcoins at the conference etc)

What about:

I know, I know. It's a neat gadget I bet. But I would think that with all the bitcoiners that were using it and actually meeting with the developers that they'd even mention one single detail in praise of how bitcoin can be sent through it, wouldn't you?

It seems like it's a device that was created as a prototype at one point (probably sometime last year) and then bitcoiners picked up wind of it and someone convinced them to start developing it for Bitcoin (I bet I know who too  ;)).

Oh... I made the assumption that "playing with" the card meant using it with Bitcoins.  I got the impression that the card was made for Bitcoins.  Guess I was a bit wrong on that front!

Welcome to the mushroom kingdom.


Ripe for abuse.

Did you actually use the product as well? Tested the functionality? Sent bitcoins with it?

I agree with others, pics or didn't happen...

First I have to say... WOW.  The video is great!  Whoever did that has a lot of talent!  It has style, it is clean, and shows enough to get you very excited.  Please make a video for bitcoin itself of that quality!!


Is this device even possible?   YES.  Just barely and with some tricks.  Can it do everything shown in the video practically and in the real world.. no.  But it can do most of what is shown and if made (if it has not been made already) will be a great boost to bitcoin and it's makers/investors.  COINLAB ARE YOU LISTENING???? 

My rough guess as to the specs/device:

CPU: something in the ballpark of S3CT9KW.  Maybe 4x better but probably not.
RAM 144KB
ROM 320KB
CPU speed 5Mhz

Display:
flexible epaper

Due to these choices of a super low cpu speed and super low power usage on the display the device can run off of solar power and/or tiny battery.  With this level of power the device could SEND and hold bitcoins.  It could accurately display a balance of what is held IF the keys were not held elsewhere because it knows what it sent out.   

What can it not do?  Receive bitcoins and know the balance accurately.  It could talk to a central computer for that, but the device is not going to be able to hold the blockchain or process it on its own.  Still this is good enough! 

Texting/display:
This is all possible.  The device could communicate with others near it or more realistically communicate to a base station that did the relay work.  A commodore 64 could run a full BBS, a device with 4x the power could easily run a texting service.  Coupons, offers and ads could be delivered as shown.

Tracking:
Of course.  This is pretty easy.  The base station is doing all of the work.  The card is just providing a beacon and a GUID. 

Mesh:
This is where the device breaks down.  Mesh has been the most over exaggerated area of computing I have seen.  Mesh stuff simply does not work that well in the real world.  The device could communicate with others nearby and form a mesh.... but it would not have the power to keep up that mesh all of the time.  With devices being in peoples pockets and not getting much power, the mesh would not get the density it needed except in a crowded space with many users all holding them up to the light. 

Now base stations all over the place would fix this.  And this might be possible do to with a very low cost  base device.  But the mesh is going to be formed by the base stations, not by the cards. 

I've spoken with the creator via phone this morning. I do not believe the device is vaporware. Pricing is in the range of "extremely low."

They've been working on this thing for about 5 years, long before Bitcoin. When Bitcoin came around, it made some of the card's former features obsolete so they've retooled it to be heavily Bitcoin-focused. They said they found Bitcoin to be "far superior" to any of the community currencies the device was intended to be used with.

I'll be talking with the creators more and I can say perhaps in a month or so there may be some more solid information/news/review of this thing. In the mean time, just stay tuned and remain appropriately skeptical

Sounds very very interesting.

Fascinating.

And I'm pleasantly surprised at the FAQ having some level of detail, even if it includes info that wouldn't be seen as entirely positive (like a hard limit in the amount it can carry.) It's as if the creators (*gasp!*) actually know a little something about how bitcoin works, enough to toss more than just a few lines of fluff on there.

Cannot wait to see how this develops. :)

Well I have been rooting for mesh networking a while but I think a normal open source BTC smartcard would be better for btc and a phone would be a better... phone.

Their design includes a trusted server, which should NOT be necessary for bitcoins.

That said it sounds technologically impressive.

Well, when you can design a credit-card sized device that can hold and process the entire Bitcoin blockchain, you let us know!  ;)

Solar Cell Powered Smart Card With Integrated Display And Interface Keypad - Patent 5777903 (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/49583411/Solar-Cell-Powered-Smart-Card-With-Integrated-Display-And-Interface-Keypad---Patent-5777903)

This can't possibly be a real product:

- It would take another 50 years of research to get a battery capable of being that small with any amount of charge.... More likely you would need constant "solar" input which means holding it up in direct sunlight as you do everything such as type on the back (where you cant see the screen anymore?)

- If it needs constant sunlight for all its peer to peer action going on, that means custom hats as well. Or the really cool "makers"/people will tape it to their hair and existing hats

- Any "real product" you have seen of this already is going to be stripped down bullshit with only basic screen and keyboard functionality, wireless communication is way too power hungry to ever work off any kind of battery they could fit in there. 

If you invest in this... You will lose your money. Unless you wait the 50 years or so years required for better battery technology. Batteries have been the bottleneck in most mobile electronics for years now.

Couldn't agree more. I applaud the direction they're going but it's a combination that doesn't make sense and basically pics or it didn't happen.

As mentioned, pics forthcoming in about a month. Hang tight ;)

As I said above, with a cpu the level of the samsung credit card cpu this is possible.  Remember, it runs at something like 5mhz.  The epaper display only uses power when CHANGING the screen display.  The display otherwise uses no power.  A very thin battery could do this and even periodically communicate. 


I agree with you on this, the mesh would not be able to work for too long without being in the light.  So it will not work long inside of the wallet.  It could do some communication though.  It is not going to sit in your wallet for a week, then wake up when you get in the store and talk to the servers.  Now if you pull it out of your wallet and it gets some light that is a different story. 


Actually I think this is a great potential investment.  Just skip some of the parts that might not be ready for prime time.  An item like this may be producible at a low cost with a $19 selling point.  As a bitcoin wallet system, this item could work very well. 

[/quote]

Sorry, I do not understand this. Why is this better than a smartphone? A clumsy little card? Why?

you dont get a bill every month
you're anonymous when using it
...

It's smaller
It's cheaper
It's more secure (presumably moreso than a smartphone)

waiting forward for this tech to come out  :)

Sorry to quote myself, but has everyone watched the video? Why isn't my comment getting a little love?

Advertising is the bane of my existence, targeted advertising ever so much more so.  I hope and pray that it can be disabled.

ya just turn it off.

but idk i wouldn't getting some targeted advertising, if it helps me shop smarter. Say I'm about to buy something and then poof the thing tells me its half off at the other store, that might be nice

Why so hard on advertising?  Do you realize what it does?

It gives you free TV shows, free websites, free (or very cheap) newspapers, free (or very cheap) magazines, etc etc.  Do you just want to pay for everything instead?

I'd rather put up with the ads and save a few bucks, myself.

Did you miss the irony in your signature?

I don't watch TV
I pay for or donate to the websites that I need
I don't read the newspaper (does anyone these days?)
I pay for my mags, and the ad-free ones cost a bit more

With advertising that is this targeted, things are going to get creepy, fast.

Asking for voluntary donations is the same as selling a product that is highly targeted?

Advertising would be quickly turned off by wrapping it in tinfoil, but basically the least of all concerns here. If the thing already likely doesn't have enough battery to do what its suppose to do, they arent going to have all this extra power to constantly advertise to you as well.

Hmmm one might say it's more legitimate. When you're selling something, there's a two-way benefit. When you're requesting a donation, it's a one-way benefit to yourself (save that the person might feel good about donating, of course). I'm just being hard on you cause it was funny to decry advertising when you're advertising in your own signature :)

Using bitcoin with a smartphone wouldn't cost any extra with internet usage included in your contract unless you were charged for extra usage and went over the usage limits. There is also wifi.

Could you implement some anonymity for smart-phones? Some way to hide the IP address if you every really had to for whatever reason. Is this something people really want?


A lot of people already use smart-phones, especially people tech-savvy enough to be using bitcoin (I would guess the majority of bitcoin users would have smart-phones but I could be wrong). This would only be beneficial for those that do not have smart-phones and don't want them.


Well if smart-phones are in risk of malware that could manipulate any bitcoin software. Do smartphones have many vulnerabilities? I seem to remember one smartphone had a vulnerability hackers were taking advantage off which was fixed. I forgot about that now so if anyone is more aware please tell me.

Not everyone uses smartphones, or ever will.  My wife uses a cell phone that can make phone calls and text, and nothing more.  I have a android.  I've noticed myself that for the act of making actual voice phone calls, her's is superior even though my is three times the cost.  Plus, there is the issue of security, your cell phone could potentially get hacked or malwared.  A simple standalone hardware device that uses a data protocol that doesn't permit arbitrary code to be loaded onto it from the radio is more secure by nature, thus better for the common user.  Better even for the power user in many cases as well.


Yes, some people will want it.  No, you can't practially do this with a smartphone, because no matter what you do, your cell phone company knows who you are, where you are, and what packets cross their network.

It would at that, and that is a market bitcoin needs to be able to penetrate with reasonable & inherent security.  I own a smartphone, and I'd buy this card today (and a dongle for my home router) if it were available.  I can think of no other method that is as secure from infultration, as portable and as convient.  Sure, my cell can text just fine, but not anonymously and not if I'm out camping beyond my providers reach.  If I had one of these cards for each of my kids, whether they had bitcoin or not, I could  communicate with them even when they were hidden by the trees, so long as they were in radio range with me and/or their siblings.

Smartphones are just computers.  Android is a version of gnu/linux, as an example. Linux is fairly secure by nature, but it's not perfect.  The problem is the shear complexity of the modern OS, which leaves open the possibility that a security hole was missed by the developers to be found by hackers in the future.  There is also the problem of your cell provder, do you trust them enough to handle your money?  Becuase from a practical perspective, they have acces to your unrooted cell phone; so somewhere there is a backdoor to the device.  This is how they can update your phone's software over-the-air without your personal involvement.  What happens if the next wallet stealing trogen is written by the former developer for Sprint?

@MoonShadow how about using orbot (https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.torproject.android&hl=es) to start from somewhere ?

You made some very good points there but with enough time solutions will come to fill the gaps.

Sure, you could use a bitcoin client that exclusively uses Tor to hide your transactions, but you still can't be certain that the phone company doesn't already know what your addresses are.  Android clients are going to continue to be a huge part of the bitcoin economy, this is true.  However, so will stand-alone hardware devices like this one.  We seem to have a bunch of naysayers on this forum with little real knowledge about digital telemetry repeatedly declaring either 'un-possible!' or 'no one would want one'.  I want one.  Hell, I want six for my family, and I'd start to give them to family members for presents instead of gift cards.  Can you see a future wherein a teenage daughter says, "Dad, can I borrow your keys and your smartphone? I'm going to the mal- *cough* library." or "Dad, can I borrow your car keys and a few bitcoin for my card?..."

Then you'll love BitDex.

And what is BitDex?

4 to 6 weeks?

Seriously, this looks pretty awesome.

I think having my finances off my smart phone would be an improvement. I don't want to kill my battery listening to music or playing games and then no longer be able to spend money or open a security gate. It's already a pain when I have to decide between having fun on my phone and saving battery for calls later in the day.

who said 4 to 6 weeks?

We were working on "Bitcoincard" long before Bitcoincard was working on Bitcoincard for Bitcoin. We're almost ready to present but I have to say, I don't see Bitcoincard as being much of a competitor. Ad-hoc is interesting and all, but it's not practical for the kind of features you'd need in a bitcoin wallet device. We're going full retard with Bitdex though.

(Unfortunately, it will need to be charged unlike the black magic bitcoincard, but perhaps when such a technology actually exists to charge the device constantly, we'll release an upgrade)

It was a joke...

you got me all excited their .... not funny  ;)

can you give us more info

what makes Bitdex different / better?

Nope. You can read the press release when we're ready. It was supposed to be released 3 months ago, so that means any day now.  ;)

This so explains your hostility to features claimed in bitcoincard, you're biased because you're invested into a competitor.  I'm glad to hear that there are more than one option on the way, but I will wait until there is something to see.  Will your product be able to transact without cell service & send free text messages as well?

My hostility is towards vaporware and unsubstantiated claims. No demos, no word on functionality, just a video, some hype-ful tweets, etc. If this actually works, I'll be the first to celebrate and congratulate the developers. Seriously. The problem is that I don't believe ad-hoc is a solution for Bitcoin transactions, and they have no working prototype to show (the one at the conference wasn't a working demo).


Yes, although we're working with cell companies to have the option available for whomever wants it.

No. I don't personally see any value of a financial tool being a chatting device. If we wanted that, we'd just stick with using a mobile phone.

Can't wait till I can cut the red ribbon on this one.

I looked up bitdex, and there wasn't even that much there from my perspective.  I'm sure that you know whether or not a product exists with bitdex, but I don't.  You don't even have a video or the attempt at a faq, just a cartoon of a book.

Ad-hoc meshing may or may not be a solution, but that also depends on what your persectives on what the problem is.  Wireless mesh networking has it's place, but I won't claim that it's easy or likely, but a meshable hardware wallet would be a useful feature for some.  Furthermore, you don't have a working demo either; at least not one you are willing to show us.


How then, if not some kind of p2p ad-hoc connection?  If it involves a cable, you've already lost.
Fair enough, texting is an unnecessary function.  Still, they would work great for sending the device a cryptographicly signed purchase receipt, something that I would find useful.  You could buy something at wal-mart with bitcoin anonymously, but walk out of the store with a return receipt that's far better than the paper receipts available now.  Of course, if you are using a wal-mart branded bitcoincard, they know who you are anyway.

BitDex is the codename. I highly doubt you would find anything online about it, since I've only mentioned it maybe 7 times briefly on the forums since 2011. The discussions related to the BitDex have mostly been done inside the DCAO away from prying eyes. I'm quite curious as to what cartoon you found lol

And that's the meat of the argument right there. I'm not making videos promoting something I'm not ready to show a working unit of.  ;)

That will all be outlined in the press release.)

I will say that as a kid I did love those bluetooth, radio and IR connected chatting devices. Something like "My Diary" or somewhatnot. Rad stuff that was.

http://bitdex.net/


you do realise those where toys right?

I have no idea what that site is, but it's not ours. Also, as I said before "Bitdex" is just the codename we use to refer to it. It has a legal registered name for the patents, business, etc. but we've agreed not to use it publicly until the press release.


o rly

So we get one with each Magazine  ?

The battery life of mobile phones if a good point. It will depend on the reliability of the card and the price. Time will tell.

this bitcoincard sure looks cute.

but why not use your smartphone/wlan as an uplink instead of the seemingly brittle mesh networking and solar power..

See.. somebody who will release a product then make the hype press release about it. It can be done instead of the vaporware model

Wow!  Subscribing :)

Yes, all the tracking and advertisement bullshit is creepy but just so many people want that and if that's the price of getting bitcoin main stream, I'm all for it. The infrastructure would still be bitcoin so privacy aware people could still seamlessly use android devices or brainwallets or whatever they like.

Subscribed.  Looks like a great idea.

Probably you can, when that is available.

+1

But other than that... so cool!

I didn't understand how they want to track the carts and if it works with such a high accuracy i wouldn't use one.

I like the idea of a p2p text message network, the devices don't need a high range if many ppl use it and it could decrease fees by a lot i guess.

The device looks really cool and all, but a detail disappointed me.


Well, that means you cannot use it for storage, as backups are not possible. I find it a pity since this is the first dedicated device to store bitcoins. A dedicated device is the ultimate security one can have against malware. It could be the perfect place for everybody, included non-geeks, to store their coins.
But if no backup is possible, then, well, this card becomes another way to transfer bitcoins around, just like smartphones apps are doing, but "sexier". It is not a safe place to store any more coins than what you can afford to lose.

I hope they also consider making a dedicated device meant mainly for safe storage of bitcoins. That would require the ability to safely backup your coins (deterministic wallet seed generated by the device, encrypted in the device, and transfered to a computer, or directly to a backup service perhaps). Plausible deniability would be an important feature too, to protect against robbers capable of threatening you.
Such device doesn't need to be portable, as you don't really need to leave your house with all your coins. It could be as large as tablet for example, or even larger. It doesn't need to be "sexy" either (supposing that you can make it cheaper by dropping some of the "cool" features like touchscreen, color display etc), Actually, they could make such device also act as the gateway for the smaller bitcoincard, and sell both in a package. ;)

use the search function for the dedicated wallet printer

A bunch of us are flying out to Austria next month to see the product in action.

Will keep everyone updated

Can't wait! This could be huge

Austria, eh? Hmm, sounds like fun.

LOL I've never been, was that a joke?

Im excited, Im gonna meetup with VirWox.com, Bitstamp.net, and the BTC-E.com while I'm in the region.

Alot of people are nervous if the above companies even exist, I will take pictures with everyone  ;D

That'll be fun ^_^

Not a joke, I was just avoiding saying dammit you lucky fuck, that place is beautiful in so many words. Oops, too late.

Don't most people use wallets that block rfid now, wouldn't that mess with it?

yes, while it was in the blocking wallet; but most of those are for passive rfid formats like in passports.  These devices are active units with their own processors, and don't depend upon the security of the readers or trust that all readers are themselves trustworthy.

You mean this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77930.0;all)?

It's cool, thanks for the tip. I guess it's not something my mother would feel comfortable using yet, but it's definitely safe and probably not expensive. :)

What I meant is that it might be a pain to keep in wallets because they might not function correctly with a rfid blocking wallet

I think it would be a long shot for this company to be successful.  It's basically a really small computer with a wireless radio…and there's a lot more that it can be used for than just bitcoin.  This is an obvious evolutionary direction and I'd expect many hardware manufacturers to be working in this direction.  Their best bet would be to attract investment from these hardware manufacturers (but if many of them already have internal projects working on it, they may not be interested).

The project is awesome  :o

The only problem is that it's useful only if a lot of people already uses it otherwise it's pretty useless.
And admitting they have right the very difficult technical part it will be difficult to bootstrap it's use... or at least it should be very expensive...

I disagree, the mesh texting feature makes such a device useful for me independently of whether or not it can transact in bitcoin.  Like I said, I want 6 right now for my wife & kids.  Way cheaper to give my kids each one of these to let them go play than give each of them a cell phone with service.  With android phones (and my ham radio privileges) I can give each of my kids a cell phone that uses APRS to tell me where they are, and I can call any one of them home at will.  My daughter can take my cell phone with her to her friends house, and I can track her progress with extreme accuracy.  But that means that 1) I can't use my cell phone in the meantime and 2) I have to pay for that data plan.  With a wallet card sized device, I could do some very similar things without the need of the costly data plan (granted, I'd be paying for one such plan anyway, but not six) or the expensive hardware (i.e. the android smartphone required to run the APRS app).  If my wallet card couldn't see her card because there wasn't yet enough such cards in my neighborhood to support a mesh, I'd still be able to get into my car and drive a couple of blocks to locate her signal without needing to actually see her.  I could get a seventh and pin it to my dog's collar, and find him the same way whenever he got out of the yard.

What I was trying to say is that the mesh networking, for working correctly and being useful, needs peers everywhere.
So, the meshing capabilities of the device will be unfunctional until this (wonderful) device will be widespread.

Yes, but if the device is cheap enough, there are uses for the device that would drive adoption that does not necessarily depend upon a critical mass to support mesh networking.  That is my point, I have personal uses for a number of such devices that would encourage me to deliberately create a mesh network within my own family.  Get enough of those, and a critical mass is created regardless.

I agree perfectly but my understanding is that without mesh support that device would be more or less useless.

I'm sorry I miss how the mesh network in your home would be useful for you:

1) for being functional, the bitcoincard needs a POS that serves as a gateway between your cards (any of them) and the Internet: you can't use other ones because bitcoincard uses radio frequency and not wifi or other widely deployed technology

2) when you give the card to your daughter and she walks away from your home it become useless because the mesh network is not operable any more

I'd likely buy a usb dongle to serve this purpose in my own home, in order to keep my own cards up to date.


Only if she travels beyond a single hop range, and again, if I know generally where she is going (say the mall or a public park) I don't need to know precisely where to meet her if I need to drive to pick her up.  I couldn't text her from the house if she was beyond the single hop range, but if I sent a text like "I'm on my way to pick you up, we're going to grandma's, be ready" the text would arrive at her card as soon as I were close enough for a single hop to work.

Why not a simple SMS instead?

If you had read the thread, I mentioned that I can do that all now if I'm willing to pay for a cell phone & service, but I can avoid such charges with a meshable device.

That is not necessary, a smartcard just needs to sign transactions and updating the future multi-gig blockchain on that vapor devices connection is not gonna happen anyway.

Same here... I was happy until the part about when they track people buying stuff... That killed it for me!

Plus the smartphone will be the platform of the future.  Android smartphones are now as cheap as $149 on prepaid plan without contract and there are prepaid plans as cheap as $30 per month.

Things like Google wallet & NFC are going to be the next killer app (NFC is useful for more than just payments it can replace membership cards, loyalty cards, metro cards, basically every piece of plastic in your wallet).

I love my SamSung Galaxy Nexus.  Google gives you $10 free to put on a prepaid "card" in the wallet.  I bought a soda & hotdog from 7-11 by tapping my phone.  Pretty cool tech that just works.  This will get people use to the idea of digital "money" and the smartphone as the payment platform.

While Google may never support Bitcoin other apps can use NFC hardware.  If 7-11 wanted to accept Bitcoins tomorrow the hardware is already in place in their 30,000 stores.  All they need is the backend software to process, verify, and route a signed Bitcoin tx received by NFC.

NFC & Smartphones will be gateway to mass usage of Bitcoin.  NFC can also be used point to point.  Say your friend owes you $10.  You make a payment request for 2 BTC (pretty much 2 or 3 clicks in a smartphone wallet app).  You tap your phone against his.  He gets the payment request his wallet app opens up showing the amount, note, address.  He enters his pin and your get a the 0-confirm notification in seconds.

Hello Yankee,


Any news about this device?

Smartphones are just computers that are always accessible to the Internet.  Android can be, and has been, hacked.  No thanks.  I have an android phone and won't keep more than petty cash on it.  I want a device that is inherently more secure than an operating system with continuous Internet access that can still transact in a relatively conveint fashion.  I can have a perfectly secure savings account printed onto archival paper & in my safe that I can send money to all day, but I can't readily use that on a normal basis though.

News will arrive around June 10-15th  ;)

Thanks :)

How are you going to do a Bitcoin tx when neither party has access to the internet?

No reason for a smartphone to have internet when you don't want it to.  "Airplane mode" disables all radios at the device level.  Kinda hard to be online when you have no signal. ;)

<sigh>

Do some research on the matter.


Unless you intend to carry a second phone to actually make calls, texts or use the Internet while mobile; you're going to turn that mode off eventually.  I'm not concerned about a live hacker taking my money, I'm concerned about a worm or virus that steals android wallets.  That only takes a few seconds.

http://www.servalproject.org/  they have mesh networking on android....Ive actually used it in Melbourne :D

This looks promising!

I notice they don't have a bitcoin donation address yet though. :(

What will stop people from going around with a Proxmark and cloning those cards?

What is a proxmark?

A 'pro' RFID reader/writer.

Ah, I see.  A bitcoin card can't be a  passive RFID.  It has to be an active id by it's nature.  Good luck cloning those.

Just to nitpick, I know you're trying to say that the card must be "active" in the general sense that it must perform computation, which is true.  But "passive" and "active" refer to the power source, which is technically irrelevant.

The power source could be passive.  The thing that prevents cloning is the design and the user interface (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77141.0).  Simplistic RFID tags are not designed to be secure and obviously lack a secure user interface.

No thanks.


So what is the difference between 1 phone + 1 phone being used as a dedicated bitcoin device  vs 1 phone + dedicated bitcoin device.

My point is the hardware already exists.  It is called a smartphone.  It has everything you need including connectivity and software.

For most casual users a single device is fine for the paranoid just carry two.  

The aim here is to provide (maybe a niche but I think not) a device that has better properties then a smartphone for bitcoin. 

1) cost - no smartphone I know of will be able to do a BTC transaction without costing over $100 or requiring a contract.  I assume bitcoincard will be under $50
2) size - no smartphone fits in the wallet
3) security - maybe through obscurity but most of the smartphones that COULD run a BTC transaction are running Android and would be more susceptible to a hack then the bitcoincard.  Malware may be on as much as 20% of all Android phones making it a bad place for the masses to store BTC.

It will be far under $50 ;)

Really??
That would be totally awesome. Can't imagine a better tool for blowing away my bitcoin-sceptical friends. I would immediately order a couple of units at a sub-10 btc (lets quote prices in real money!) price point.
Can't wait for june 10-15 to come round...

The workshop starts on the 11th!

 Just one idea ,what about to open small BitcoinCard company in GLBSE and support the project? The card have huge potential.

But I already have a smartphone, and I'd be willing to be that most bitcoin users do too.


No, but it fits in my pocket, where I happily carry it around with me everywhere, everyday.


This, I think, is a valid concern.  Right now, my solution is to use my phone (blockchain.info iPhone app) to keep as much money as cash I would carry in my physical wallet - so not much.  For big online purchases, I'd rather do them from my home computer, where I have access to more money via Armory offline wallets, etc.

When can I pre order 50

True, a bitcoincard would be much harder to hack, but it's easy to lose it, have it accidentally destroyed, or stolen together with your belongs. And if I understood it correctly, you cannot backup the keys. So, in what concerns safety/security, you should deal with it just like you deal with a smartphone wallet: do not put more money in it than what you can afford to lose.

I just thought, the problem I mentioned above could be solved without having to backup the keys (in case the addition of a backup feature would represent a security risk).

The bitcoincard could generate a "time locked" transaction (nLockTime) to an address in control of the owner.  Say, 6 months in the future. If the owner remains in control of the money, before the deadline he can revert the transaction to himself, and send a new time locked one. If the card is lost/destroyed/stolen, and supposing it requires a code for spending, then the owner only have to wait for the time locked transaction to unlock.

Well the blockchain doesn't work that way.  It would be useful but only for cold storage.

Remember the blockchain doesn't use "account/address balances" that is merely an abstraction for the end user.  All tx inputs are unspent prior tx outputs (except coinbase txs).

An example might help:
Say you have a wallet w/ single address abc with value of 100 BTC.  It comes from a single unspent tx (A).

from blah 100 BTC to Address abc  <- unspent output A.

Your wallet "knows" it is worth 100 BTC because it scans for all unspent outputs sent to Addresses it has private keys for (in this case only this one unspent output A for address 123).

Now you could create an nLockTime tx
Input:  unspent output A
Output: Recovery Address
Options: nLockTime (~ 6 months - nLockTime is in blocks)

The problem is as soon as you spent a single cent from this wallet.  "Unpsent" tx A becomes spent tx A and the "recovery" tx becomes invalid.

On edit:
WAIT WAIT WAIT
I think it could work IF the wallet regenerates the "recovery tx" (nLockTime) after every spend.  This would be a pretty cool concept even for "normal" wallets.

Example:
Wallet has unspent output A.
Wallet makes recovery tx (nLockTime) using outputA and publishes to network.

User spends some coins using output A, creating unspent output B (change)
Wallet makes recovery tx (nLockTime) using outputB.
Wallet broadcasts both to network simultaneously.


User spends some coins using output B, creating unspent output C (change)
Wallet makes recovery tx (nLockTime) using outputC.
Wallet broadcasts both to network simultaneously.

User receives coins (a new unspent output D)
Wallets makes a recovery tx (nLockTime) using unspent output D.
Wallet broadcasts new recovery tx as soon as it receives "unprotected" coins.

That's what I meant. ;)

Is the nLockTime parameter fully implemented? I mean, will miners recognize it and all? I ask that because I haven't seen a single client making use of it so far. (sending transactions with nLockTime)

No.  I don't believe it is supported by any client/miner yet.

But miners should at least "respect" blocks that contains it, right? Or is nLockTime just an idea for a future version of the protocol?

They don't respect it currently.

To "replace" a tx requires making a new tx with a higher sequence value.  All tx currently use a sequence of MAX_INT.  Miners won't see anything else as valid.

So if you make a nTimeLock tx w/ sequence MAX_INT it is "useless" as it can never be replaced (there is no valid sequence value higher).  If you make anTimeLock tx w/ a sequence value other than MAX_INT it will never make it to the memory pool as it won't pass validation by current rules.

That's a pity. nLockTime could have interesting applications.

It might yet.  It's still part of the protocol, feel free to dive in and code it into a client fork; and we shall see where that takes us.

Only days away from a report on this Bitcoin Card... stay tuned! ;)

Can't wait :D

We will be blogging about it in real time!

What are the benefits to log in to bitcoincard.org?thx

It's starting to sound like bragging!   ;)

I am curious how this will be used for purchases without a camera.

Or a functional infrastructure i.e. way to connect to the actual blockchain.

I suppose both sides would have to be able to communicate via radio. (both sides would probably need a bitcoincard, or something compatible)


If I understood it correctly, both sides would keep the signed tx offline until they reach a gateway through which they can send the tx to the network.
A brick and mortar merchant would probably have his gateway right there in the store.

Both functions are provided for in the same way, a 'sensor' mesh network that permits such devices to talk to each other, as well as an access point wireless dongle that permits all of these type devices to talk to the Internet at large.

FTFY.

So now this uber light and slim card needs a dongle to function properly? The vapor thickens.

That makes a lot of sense if it can talk to my Bluetooth phone with a built-in camera, smartphone, or whatever.

What makes no sense is to need to interface with your phone in the first place. It's like trying to sell a sports car that is pulled by a horse.

I didn't say anything about bluetooth.

No, the video said unlicensed radio. I do not know what that means in every country.

I have a pretty good idea, and a cell phone is unneccesary.

Hmm, I'm sure you're right.  A $30 usb dongle attached to my Internet gateway that might bring me new business for less than credit cards and offers zero threat to my existing transaction infrastructure, or $300+ to install a whole new transaction payment system wired right into my POS system.  Those are totally comparable.

EDIT: Beyond that, nothing says that the device that provides such bitcoincards access to the bitcoin network has to be owned by the shop owner.  A couple owned by the mall property owner, or a random guy walking down the block over with one on his phone, or the bitcoin geek with his own in his apartment two floors up, and it all happens.

Don't mind Matthew, he seems to be back trolling like usual after delivering a magazine, and this is even way faster to pull some useful info than watch the 5 minute video on http://bitcoincard.org or read their product (http://bitcoincard.org/product.php) and blog (http://bitcoincard.org/blog/) pages.

Keywords: ISM, mesh-network, text messaging

FTFY.

4-6 weeks?

Not ready to make an announcement on it. All I can say is, they've got it wrong and it's sad too because (aside from the horrid menu and buttons) their vaporware video makes it look really cool and is getting a lot of people's hopes up, making it harder for us to get people to believe in an actually functional product. It's like coming out with an e-wallet service right after MyBitcoin.

And you know this, how?

When we're ready to make an announcement, we will. And it won't be a cartoon showing how something might work someday if someone invests billions of dollars into something no one wants to invest in.

STFU or delivar. Your choice.

I don't usually post useless and offtopic posts, but... I want one. No, actually I want 2 and I want them NOW !
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu328/zerosignal/Shut-up-and-take-my-money.jpg

IF I could get them right now I would take 6 (maybe 15 and try to sell the idea to the rest of my family). BTW Im they posted a new video recently which demonstrated a bitcoin transaction.

I dont see why anyone is complaining about not backing them up or them getting lost. They work exactly like a debit card or one of those green dot cards. You load it with as much money as you need. Every month youd put 500BTC on the card to refill it for daily use. You shouldn't be carrying around your life saving in your pocket! You dont do that with cash or your debit card now, itd be silly to do that with this device.


mattewN when are we getting more information about that bitdex?

PS. Im already upset that it doesnt talk to me all the time like a pokedex :(

OK, I see it uses ISM bands. Bluetooth also uses ISM bands, so while it may not be Bluetooth, it seems to be using the same concept.

After Iceland I'll be flying to the USA for the next few months to work on it there with other projects as well. The prototype is already available, we're just working out the mass manufacturing. It's basically a money issue at this point. Making something of the magnitude we're planning (50,000 units at $30 a pop) will take about $1million cold and it won't move without $100k down, not to mention the fact that $100k is easily eaten by redesigning UI, debugging, molding, plates, PCBs, etc and any mistakes at the manufacturers. Not to mention marking and advertising budgets to get it into every store in the USA as a payment device.

This shit is big, but it has to be done right. I believe wholeheartedly that Bitcoincard is being done wrong in every way (advertising, branding, marketing, funding, design, technology, infrastructure, etc). We'll gladly let the free market decide though. The kickstarter goes up soon, but everything in this post is completely unofficial and nonbinding.

That's awesome! Will I be able to use it at Barnes and Nobles to buy Bitcoin Magazine?

500 BTC is ~$2500.  If my debit card stops working I don't lose $2500 the bank just issues me a new debit card.  Your analogy doesn't make much sense.  If anything you pointed out that without backups it is NOT like a debit card.  It is more like cash and personally I don't carry around $2500 in cash for the exact reasons of loss/theft.

Rofl. The only way you'll be using any Bitcoin enabled payment device to buy the Bitcoin Magazine in Barnes in Noble is if you're buying it off our website while simply happening to be in Barnes and Noble.

I just think it is a pity that it's only a device to spend coins. It's not that much better than a good smartphone app in that sense. Ok, much cooler, but functionally similar.
If it only had (1) different addresses per transactions and (2) the possibility to backup the addresses' seed, it would be more than a device to spend btcs, it would be the best device available to store all of your coins, due to its dedicated platform. The likelihood of a malware infecting this device is lower than any other solution we currently have. Add (3) hidden volumes for plausible deniability and you've got the "ultimate bitcoin wallet". :)

(btw, if 500BTC is your "daily use" which you can easily afford to lose, I envy you :P)

okay so debit card can only be lost or stolen the money can still be spent by a thief and you can hope the bank will refund you. If a green dot card is lost or stolen your completely out of luck.

this card can be lost or stolen. The only other thing you need to worry about is breaking it. I was giving 500BTC as an explain. You would only put as much on the card as you would in your wallet.

@up
you can receive coins too. they showed that in the video sending coins to your friend on the street.

ya 500BTC was a bad amount to pick I figured it would last the month and you would reload it every month but even that is a lot. 20-100BTC would of been a better amount to use.

FYI that is not a proven feature, it's a video to collect investments for development.

I will definitely buy your magazine when it hits the bookstores in Dallas, TX with or without Bitcoin.

Ditto!

And the maximum range of the dongle is 100 metres according to the website. Presumably the card-to-card mesh communications will have, if anything, an even shorter range. I can't imagine this working terribly well somehow. Most likely the "mesh" functionality will end up being something that looks good on the spec sheet but isn't actually practical - at least not for Bitcoin payments - and the entire thing will be dependent on the fixed access points to work properly.

I guess that would depend on population density. Though I wonder that since this is very low bandwidth communications, perhaps "dummy nodes" consisting of walletless transceivers couldn't be embedded everywhere from utility poles to business signs to mailboxes, etc.

Question: how many p2p transactions can be stored and forwarded for later? If you aren't near a dongle, and other users are creating transactions near you, I assume that each device queues all the tx up until one of them gets near a dongle and spews the info onto the internet. Is there a practical imitation on the number of stored transactions? This assumes that it is a lightweight client, but if it is a full node that would be a bit different too.

There would be a practical limit, but it's one that's hard to predict.  It depends upon the input transactions that the device has in local storage, because it can only make transactions based upon the unspent inputs that it has since last connect.  It's not practically possible for a disconnected device (light or otherwise) to be able to use the change from a previous transaction as an input in a new transaction because all other devices should require that the change transaction have 6 confirms or at least a copy of the block's merkle tree as evidence that it's a valid transaction and not a double spend.  Since the device is disconnected, there is no way for it to have that evidence even if some other device has already forwarded the transaction to the network on it's behalf.  In practice, such a device is going to have to keep a set of seperate transaction inputs of varied sizes in order to make multiple payments between online sessions.

I suspect that I know the tech being presented here, and if I'm correct, the video is likely understating the practical ranges.  I know that I'm guilty of speculation, but I suspect that the mesh tech alluded to is dash7.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DASH7

Note that Dash7 devices are inherently location aware, in a relative sense; i.e. they know where there are relative to other dash7 devices.  The customer location tracking features mentioned in the video are one of the encentives for vendors to adopt a set of 'dongles', which would (presumedly) be aware of their own positions in an absolute sense (GPS).

Also note that Dash7 devices can have theortical ranges up to 2km, which practially means about 1km; and that it's max data rate is 200kbps.  However, it cannot do both max range and max speed at the same time, so the video's downgrading of the noted ranges might be due to a concern of overpromising or it might be due to the intent of the card designers fixing the data rate at the max and otherwise living with whatever range remains.

Dash7 isn't good for data that streams or large files, but for mesh propogation of bitcoin data it's practially ideal.  Also the ISM band that DAsh7 uses (433Mhz) is a 32nd harmonic of that which NFC uses as a standard, so both techs can coexist on the same tranceiver and share much silicon, making such features cheaper to produce.

Didn't understand this.
AFAICT, this device cannot validate any transaction while offline. It would be a task to the gateway.
And why can't a bitcoincard A send a series of linked-by-change transactions to B, and then B uploads them all to his gateway?

/watching

An offline device can create and sign a transaction, it cannot validate it.  However, (in theory, don't know about this device yet) any disconnected device with local copies of it's inputs could also keep the merkle trees that show where those input transactions fit into the blockchain.  This is about as close to an offline validation as it likely possible.


First the 'gateway' is just another mesh radio connected to the Internet, there is no reason to expect that the gateway itself would be a bitcoin node.  A counter-party to a change based transaction needs to be able to see that the previous transaction fits into a block, otherwise the next transaction is indistingishable from a double spend attempt.  This would be possible if the counter-party were a connected full node & the prior transaction made it back to the internet by another path,but such an event cannot be assumed.

I see. It would require having all block headers, sort of what BitcoinJ does, wouldn't it?
I don't think such a small device would have such ability...


Why can't the gateway be a computer with a bitcoin node running?
And even if it isn't, if the entire chain of change-based transactions is provided to the counter-party, where's the issue? It would try to send them all at the same time to the network and only mark as confirmed once they are all in some block. AFAIK you can have an entire chain of dependent transactions confirmed at once in the same block, can't you?

I don't know why not.  Thus far the headers total about 16megs.


It can, it's just not a requirement.  It's unlikely that most gateways are going to be nodes.  More likley a couple hundred gateways port forwarding or ssh tunneling to one node.


No, you cannot.  The followuup transactions are not 'valid' for a block until the transaction prior to it is in a block.  I don't even think that they can propogate past the first full node until the first one is in a block.

Really? An address can't be credited and debited in the same block?
Why not? I mean, why impose such limitation?

(I think we're getting off-topic... I'll open another topic about this)

EDIT: Here it is: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86377.0

This is false. It happens fairly often in fact that someone sends to an address and then debits in the same block. The only restriction is that the transactions have to be chronologically ordered in the block (due to the way bitcoin blocks are processed)

Also: I saw bitcoincard, and the device is legit. It has only minor kinks that are easy to work out.

I'll avoid posting more as they're quite sensitive to exposing their secrets right now, but the device is really cool. I'm hopeful for it.

First off:
- It's tiny. Credit card sized and < 1 mm thick
- Low cost (cheap device)
- Low power (runs off solar)
- Theoretically it should be secure, but I need to know more of their setup first to be sure their implementation is secure. I'm guessing there may be a couple of vectors they haven't thought of yet, but with proper help they should resolve this.

For merchants, it's trivial and safe to allow Bitcoin payments from these. They also look pretty nifty.

I can imagine one day, Intersango giving away a basket of these for free branded with our logo (or something). They are really cheap and simple devices.

http://siliconangle.com/blog/2012/06/08/bitcoincard-puts-cryptocurrency-in-your-wallet-with-a-mycelium-smartcard/ (http://siliconangle.com/blog/2012/06/08/bitcoincard-puts-cryptocurrency-in-your-wallet-with-a-mycelium-smartcard/)
"The Bitcoincard moves bitcoin economic interaction offline, which significantly expands both turnover and the target audience. But, most importantly, it makes the clustered local growth of a new free economy possible. Everything starts from the small and mundane, from the things that we encounter on the street everyday. All we need to do is to try to live while using each others’ services directly, without the participation of outside agents such as the dollar, and everything will be smooth sailing."

New blog post:

BitcoinCard in Vienna Day 1: Coffee, missing ATM's, and some testing! (Pictures)

http://blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/8/bitcoincard-in-vienna-day-1-coffee-missing-atms-and-some-tes.html

Haven't read all pages in this post, but simply creating a faraday cage around your card (simple copper sleeve) would eliminate a store "snooping" on where you have been in the store, outside, etc. That is... until you go to purchase something.

Yeah it should have the option to turn the card off or at least the tracking off.  Yes simple cover sleeve to act as a Faraday cage would also be a good idea to protect the card.

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but if the cards can 'talk' wireless protocols, I suppose you could have a simple bridge-app on your phone to relay the data through the cellular network. Many people who have jailbroken iPhones and Android handsets would be familiar with this.

Nice product, by the way.

I suspect that this device is so far ahead of its time, that they will not be able to keep up with demand. I kinda hope they just license out the technology to anyone willing to market up-scaled versions and use the licensing fees to make the cheapest version possible for developing countries.

if they can build them for as cheap as they say these will be a real winner.

I want to wear one as a watch!

I have a question to people who think these are a winner.

The issue seems to be a social issue not a technological one. Do people prefer a secure dedicated device over a less secure mobile phone which offers a far superior featureset?

Random thoughts here:

- Devices are so low spec that it makes it difficult to implement any of the blockchain scalability optimisations that can be used for Electrum. Much of the processing is moved server side which assuming it ever did the volume that is mass usage, would be a serious problem.

- I’m not sure that the hardware on these devices can generate enough entropy. A friend (niekt0) told me that ECDSA (unlike other encryption schemes) requires entropy for each signing, not only for generating keys.

- I’ve seen an addon device for mobile phones that allows secure key signing to be possible via an attached USB or similar device. The functionality for a mobile phone is far more advanced that these low spec devices.

- Even if dedicated devices are more secure, mobile phones have more popular adoption. For small amounts of spending cash, their security is adequate. For larger amounts, larger devices or services are fine.

Have you seen the specs? I'm not sure what processing you are referring to?


It is difficult to believe that these can work independently without docking at some point to dump data and build a new wallet.


That's why I think these are ideal for developing nations. They will not only appreciate them more, but will find more creative ways to use Bitcoin.

Usually different persons have different needs.

And while talking generally, at least initially the easier the tech, the better (remember iphone 1 couldn't even receive an MMS!).

I too think this device will have the greatest success with developing nations where people can't offer a smartphone.

It's not a problem for bitcoinspinner, which pretty much does the same thing for an android smartphone.  It would take some significant adoption rates before the server side was heavily loaded even for a low end server instance, and it's not like that can't be scaled up if the market is there.  I wouldn't expect that transfers from a bitcoincard are going to be free, they aren't for bitcoinspinner.


Not quite correct, as all signing is a reproducable process by necessity.  Also, any amount of entrophy can be aquired early, over a period of time, or by the wireless radio receiver by tuning to an off channel and digitizing the background noise.  There is no need for a radndome number generator because the digital receiver acrtually is one.


I'm sure that some future users will go that route, or simply buy smartphones with this kind of hardware included in the phone.


Mobile phones do, but smartphone not so much.  Not yet anyway.  Still, I want a dozen even though I have a smartphone.  I use my smartphones for a great many things, many of which are terriblely insecure.  Hardening my smartphone so that it could do any kind of mobile payments secure enough to keep any significant balance would be an inconvience in so many other ways.  If the devices are cheap enough, they have value as a secondary value storage device, even if they spend most of their time in my safe.  The mesh texting functions also make them independently valuable to myself to keep in touch with my kids when we are in public but separated from line of sight.  I could put some without any balance in the back pockets of my toddlers, so that I could vector track them with a smartphone app should they get loose in a crowd.  I could give one to each of my older kids so that I could keep tabs on them while they wander the Mall or the craft fair, and do so far cheaper than it would cost me to pay for a cell phone & service.  Cheaper even than a set of Family Radio Service handsets, and less publicly annoying.  I could give them away to my pre-teen daughter's click of friends as a texting toy, if they are cheap enough.

That's just my own, very real, use case.  I can think of a dozen other use cases off the top of my head, not the least of which is as an actual payments device for people who are 1) to poor or 2) too cheap to buy a smartphone (such as the third world bitcoin user model mentioned by others) or 3) those who actually do own a smartphone but are either beyond their effective 3G service range or 4) desire to have a backup method should their smartphone be physically stolen or 5) pwned or 6) busted or 7) simply a dead battery.  And then there are those who like to go camping beyond the range of their cell service and 8) the camp store accepts bitcoins but doesn't have wifi.

Again, it depends upon the cost of the device.  If they cost under $2 each to  procure, I'll buy a dozen & one  or two hardware gateway dongles jsut for the location & texting features.  The bitcoin fuctions are just a bonus.

I don't think you get it. BitcoinSpinner / Electrum are fine on a smartphone and the scalability optimisations can be applied. Also entropy can be generated.

These devices are REALLY low spec. They are very very simple devices to simply sign a tx and hold a single key. In fact they are so small that it's tough keeping a bitcoin tx in memory.

Why kind of storage do these cards have? Or how long are the card to card transactions/messages stored?

Since every message/transaction is send to everyone in the network (because the network doesn't notice that a message reached the receiver) there must be huge amounts of data after a few days/weeks (like the blockchain).

Are there any specific details about how they are planning to prevent spamming/flooding?

The whole is based on the trusted servers. If the owner of a server (or a hacked server) sends false informations people can get scammed easily since the card has no other way to check the blockchain. Or does it take serveral servers to confirm a incoming transaction? So the risk could be minimized.

how flexible is it?  how easy is it to break?  water proof?  Will it Blend?

I'm planning on pre-ordering 5-10 when they first come out.
Once I like the first batch, I'll show it off and get some people interested and try to gather some pre-orders so I can buy bulk of ~250-500.


http://blog.bitinstant.com/storage/Screen%20Shot%202012-06-06%20at%201.17.00%20PM.png

I wish I could buy some too. Before reading this thread, to me it looked more like a scam. Fancy video, not much info, tried to contact them - no reply, only a Bitcoin address to send the money. Once they show up here on the forum and give some real contact details, I might be interested to invest some real buck. Also, nodes at shopping malls is good idea, but what about other locations? Think cars (precicely trucks).

Is a sleeve like that possible? I thought cages had to be grounded to be effective?

I dunno, but my US passport card came with a foil wrapper that they recommended be left on all the time while in my wallet, so presumably they know whether it should work or not.

Nope, but that's a very common misconception.

IAMAED (I am an electronics designer)

Have you read our blog? blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/6/19/our-discovery-in-vienna-the-bitcoin-card.html

Let me know if you change your mind after reading it  :)

If the secure dedicated device is as small as a credit card, why not both?

Most people currently carry around a wallet and a cell phone, adding one extra card into a wallet isn't a very high cost to incur for the potential benefits the device could provide.

Add in low cost for the device and I can't imagine why anyone would feel there is any necessity to choose one over another.

If it's as cheap as they say I'll buy at least one even if I almost never use it.  It would be worth the ~$20 just to be able to pull it out and show people some cool future tech.

Exactly.  I expect to still use my mobile phone wallet almost all the time.  But as a showpiece of tech, this is definitely something cool to show.  I'll be getting one.

I had this misconception too. So, these governments forcing their subjects to use RFID passports and ID cards are basically forcing them to give up their personal details to any random stranger with appropriate equipment that passes close by...
Isn't there anything these governments subjects may do to protect their privacy, other than not bearing such cards (what's not always an option)?

Nope a sleeve like that is not possible...?
or
Nope cages don't have to be grounded to be effective?

hehe, good point julz.

Yeah he's right a Faraday cage does have to be earthed (it's a long time since I studied :P ) but some kind of sleeve may be possible maybe if the sleeve had a potential difference (possibly by a solar-cell and battery) it would help to block the Tx/Rx of the card (again it's a long time since I studied). 

A Faraday cage only needs to be grounded when you want to use it to protect the contents from high voltage. No ground is needed for a foil wrap to reflect radio waves.

This only works to a point.  If the frequency of the device is shorter than the resonant wavelength of the foil wrapper, it can just resonate the single right through.  Unplug your microwave, put your cell phone into it, and call your cell  phone and you will see what I mean.

If I'm surrounded by metal that is hit by lightning, it doesn't matter if this metal is grounded or not as no matter which two points of my cage I touch these two points will never expose me to high voltage as the cage's resistance is by many magnitudes lower than my body's and thus the electrons would not want to flow through me but rather through the metal - grounded or not.

That's true, as it has much to do with 'skin effect'.  Still, that has almost zero bearing on the question of radio waves penetrating a thin metal sleave.

not sure if anyone asked, are these waterproof?

This would fit no? :D
http://www.p2i.com/ (http://www.p2i.com/)

Maybe the Bitcoincard people should work with The Freedom Box Foundation - (http://www.freedomboxfoundation.org/goals/index.en.html) to have them act as gateway nodes.  I think it would fit with foundations ideology to help the bitcoin network propagate?

judging from what i've seen i would guess yes, the final product can be waterproof - maybe not for deep-diving but it would survive a shower.

the development prototypes have some holes, though so i would not try it with them.

It only needs to be able to survive a washing machine & dryer.

I was thinking more along the lines of taking ladders and a truck around town to super-glue them to tops of things.

What about South America?

If it will survive the washing machine, it will do fine on the top of a vending machine.

"Later tonight, mysterious Bitcoin Nodes HIDDEN in YOUR neighborhood, and how you can stop cyber terrorism"

Is there any news on timetables for release dates yet?

They plan on being at CES in Vegas in Jan to launch the card, but not sure how that timeline is progressing.

Im gonna see one of the developers this weekend when he comes to NY to visit us.

Any timetables on release dates or any news?

http://asia.cnet.com/mastercard-rolls-out-credit-card-with-display-and-keypad-62219392.htm

Come on! We want our card! :D

Holy crap, I didn't even think about setting up my own local mesh network by just gluing/hiding these things around town. Since they're solar, I don't have to worry about power... that is awesome!

Sorry to ruin your bitcoin dreams, but bitcoincard.org is down. I smell another crashed bitcoin startup.

lol their website is currently unavailable, and you think the hole project has been abandoned?

your over reacting to the smallest thing :P

if I was bitcoincard, I'd wait a few years b4 releasing, to let the bitcoin user base grow. You only get to be new and hot for a few days, might as well make it count.

I also think it needs more development.

the project is definitely not abandoned, i am working on a part of it right now.

the website should not be down i will check with the people responsible

I'll be with them in China in 2 weeks, will get an update. Project is still in the works

Well, I gues it was just over-promoted too soon. Just like the bitinstant debit card :P. The video on the website was talking about solar powered P2P mesh network for bitcoin payments - the cryptoanarchist wet dream. We even saw a pictures of real product on the forum. However, hype started to fall over time, website went down, no updates on forum... You have to admit it looked like just another fallen bitcoin startup. I'm glad that project development continues and wish you best luck.

That wasn't planned...that what my stupid 3am post 3 day programming binge leak lol

I guess some (all?) of us would appreciate a new ETA, even in the range of months. That would be better than standing in the dark.

I'm assuming it hasn't changed from showing off the first prototype at an expo in January, with production to follow?

See below


Not sure, and I have no affiliation with this project whatsoever besides for being friends with Tom who I met on this project.

However, I mentioned earlier, Ill be in China next week with a few of the Bitcoincard people...Ill inquire within!

I have a meeting with them in Vienna next week. Relax, it takes time to develop cool stuff.

if you are in vienna in that week be sure to come over to our Block reward halving party then :)

https://plus.google.com/events/ca8ra2id54se3tr3occ6bhhva50

Perfect timing, I'll be there. Let's hope that the ghost of Satoshi also thinks that the halving should be Wednesday evening  ;)

You guys should forsure meetup!

Jan, meet Andreas, Andreas meet Jan...my two favorite non-Americans  ;D

really? lol!

Ya lol

Blog post about it: blog.bitinstant.com/blog/2012/8/23/the-press-and-the-paycard.html

I'll try to be there too, I'm now in the process of moving to Vienna.

envy!

+1

So, is any new info?

Hardware practically done, test units are in the office, just working on finishing the software and simplifying the UI. Hope to ship by end of the year, or early next year. Due to battery limitations (technology not there yet) the always-on mesh part will not work in the first versions of it, so radio will only be on and transmit when the card is on. We will probably implement full mesh when better battery technology comes out (carbon, or nanotube). You can see pictures of the device as it is now on http://www.mycelium.com

I've seen pictures, nice.
Since the battery is the problem you can think of an additional card only for the cell.
I have a wallet pocket knife Victorinox
http://www.victorinox.com/ch/product/Swiss-Army-Knives/Category/SwissCards/SwissCard-VX-Colors/0.7107.841
After a period I no longer imagine life without it, no matter that it is thick.
Of course, smaller is more beautiful.

Have you ever wondered about the price?

wow,interesting
isn't there an oficial thread of this new card?

No official threads yet. We are trying to keep the price as low as possible (lower than other hardware wallets)

This claims that the Bitcoin communication will take place through radio waves !!! Am I reading it right ?

By the way, is cardreaderfactory.com offering something similar ?

That is right. Bitcoincard is designed to be used without an internet connection. I don't know anything about cardreaderfactory.

interesting
any price aproximation?

Yes  ;)

Is not it the fact that military permission is required to use radio waves in commercial purpose ?

Moreover, after the last hack, it seems Satoshi ordered something from cardreaderfactory.com using satoshin@gmx.com and as per their website they are a card designing firm doing something related to Bitcoin. I assume, Satoshi wanted to spread the usage of Bitcoin beyond internet too...

Military permission? Never heard of that one. There are certain frequencies free-to-use for everyone (within limitations). If other frequencies are used, one can get (= pay for) licences at the regulating body. Just like they paid those insane amounts to buy UMTS mobile internet frequency licences..

It is widely assumed that satoshi hat nothing to do with that mail/order at all. Some random person entered his mailaddress in an order for fun. It wouldn't make sense for satoshi to use his public mailaddress, as the company would know his shipping address too then.

Ente

That's right. It uses the open/free frequency spectrum, and only sends short bursts of data to transmit transactions, instead of a steady connection.

but what is that price aprox?

 :)


Only see this one currently available for purchase, but that should give you some idea I would think.

http://www.bitcointrezor.com/ $119

Yes, aiming for way less than that. But not final yet, since we aren't completely finished with everything.

and there is an aprox date when we may see something?

Best we can guess is around end of this year, or early next year.

It would be nice if I could receive e-mails about bitcoincard.
Do you have a newsletter?

No. We just make announcements here and Reddit, and on our mycelium.com website.

I'm sure you will hear of it on all channels when this nice little gadget gets released.

What frequency will you use? There are differences between countries about ISM.

868 or 915 MHz, depending on the jurisdiction.

any ETA for the launch?

Will this still require the use of gateways / re-transmitters?

     http://bitcoincard.org/earth/

I'm in a dense area in a highrise. I might be able to reach quite a number of people.

I love this project but get creeped the hell out by the consumer tracking "features" in this video:

http://bitcoincard.org/

I'm assuming we could always get one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Identity-Stronghold-Blocking-Secure-Sleeve/dp/B00886N6YA

But I would prefer to support the mycelium network and not have to mostly shield the card.
sigh...

inBitweTrust:
Also, do you shield your mobile phone? You can be tracked by Bluetooth/WiFi/cellular.

There is a difference between a device which is designed to feed specific information to marketers like credit cards and this and a cell phone which feeds information to emergency respondents when needed or the NSA.

But yes , sometimes I do shield my phone too....unfortunately, most of the time one cannot as the purpose of it is to receive messages and call continuously.

I suppose the benefit of this is you can swap them out and create multiple persona's like a burner cell phone though. It will be interesting to see how quickly marketers pressure mycelium to either get their real identity or remove the ability for multiple identities in a card like how google is trying to clean out the pseudonym's from its database and "encourage" users to use their real identities.

Good to know these features won't be incorporated in version 1 ... that's the version I will buy several of. The rest of it is not needed as I can text message and email from my cell phone just fine.

They could offer discounts to people that use a "signing" address from their wallet. That may be a "feature" to be added for those that want it. You would be surprised what people would do to save a few bucks.

This looks fantastic! I want one too :-)

Really great to find this project alive!

I think the card's thickness is not that important. I'd be satisfied even if it's 5x times thicker than conventional credit cards.

Is it possible to use this card as a standalone bitcoin payment device (so no additional wallet required for basic payment)? That would be huge.

Still hoping for end of this year or early the next.



Yes, however the first version will not be able to do full mesh networks. The tiny battery is not strong enough to keep it running and retransmitting all day, so it will only transmit and receive transactions when it's on.


It creeps me out too, but there is nothing you can do if you have a device that transmits radio, and someone else uses a radio scanner that scans for unique signals. It doesn't matter if that radio is our Bitcoincard, your cell phone, your Bluetooth device, or even an NFC chip in your credit card. Best you can do is not associate your real identity with the number associated with your radio (like you don't associate your bitcoin addresses with your identity). I don't know if we are even still planning this feature, since the video was made over two years ago, and A LOT has changed since then, both in bitcoin and with our device (which looks nothing like the one in the video, check out mycelium.com), but if this technology is pretty much inevitable, anyway, then I'd rather it be us that controls what comes out eventually (we're very much against government snooping, as you can probably tell by the features were already have, and plan to implement, into our app).

These cards will be generic bitcoin wallets, sold by PC hardware retailers, not credit cards issued by banks. Your real identity won't be associated with it, and I don't think there is even a place to enter such information. So there is no amount of pressuring that can be done to make us add what we physically have no way of adding. I would be more worried about merchants tracking you by facial recognition software, than by how many anonymous random numbered radios hang out in which isle.


Initially, no. You would either need another card to send payments to, or a merchant would use a web connected dongle to receive payments. In the future we are considering adding NFC, which would let you send and receive transactions from the card to any NFC enabled device, like a phone. However, we are not entirely set on that. Our goal is to make these things as cheap as possible and be usable with the least amount of infrastructure (electricity and web access), and not necessarily as usable and feature full as possible. We want people to use bitcoin in third world countries where those things are unavailable, and in corrupt totalitarian countries where bitcoin may be severely restricted.

This is real ??
Or just a planning ?

Rassah I agree that imsi catchers are an issue for privacy but I don't agree that this card has to have the same problems. If I pay with it in a store, the store can assign it a customer id and regardless of me giving my name or not, it now can track me through the shop for all eternity as customer #42, link that to photos and eventlually retroactively to my name if ever I give it, only if the card keeps its ID. If the card identifies differently every day and the wallet is an HD wallet, I don't see such issues.

Sure, to prevent certain kinds of DOS attacks, you can't allow to change the ID at any speed, but once per day would be nice for the merchant, as it could still track overall user movements in his shop but it would also be nice for the user as it has some privacy when coming back tomorrow.

Dmitry, your website says this project started back in 2008 as a text messaging system. Is that still going to be a feature? Could you use it to send uninterruptible messages? It would be really cool if you could. Since I live in a densely populated tech savvy area I anticipate many users being near me at any time. Will this work like the typical mesh network topology with each node relaying data for the network or will it simply be a device used to transfer from you to a register? As the release draws near will you start accepting preorders?

This is a big thread and I didn't read all of it. Sorry if my questions have already been addressed.

Next imagine unicorns vomiting rainbow waterfall faucets of bitcoins right into your Primedice deposit address!

Will this thing be unidentifiable from outside?
What I mean is, does each single device have a unique ID? I don't want my movement be tracked which is why I currently cannot use mobile bitcoin payments T_T... This device might change that but only it it does not have a unique ID that can be identified wirelessly

I would hope that having a unique ID would be optional and that it can be changed easily.

Aswan, cbeast: I don't think there will be any ID assigned to card other then your Bitcoin Address, which can be changed.

I hope it's true. I am not only talking about a hardware ID but also an ID that depends on the cards software (something like MAC Addresses maybe?)

I am looking forward to getting all the information about the products once it's revealed. I'm rly excited :P

Not in the first version. Since there won't be an always on mesh connection, text messaging wouldn't work. We will probably add it once we boost the battery power to be on all day.


One we get a mesh version out, it will be a true mesh. First version will only transfer from you to register or another card.



Not sure. Probably not. We needed to raise money for Entropy to be able to make it (mostly developed and funded by the devs), while the Bitcoincard is the main company product that is getting developed no matter what. We will probably appreciate commitments from resellers and such to get an idea for how many to make in the first batch run.

Thanks for answering. It sounds like it will be a great product. I can't wait to try one. Maybe think about offering a trade in option for people that order the first version so they can trade up to the great new features as they're released.

Got some answers. The radio will not have any identifying numbers, like a MAC, but the first version of the device will not support HD, using the same address for all transactions like the old Mycelium Wallet used to do. You can still change the address manually though, and at least you won't be tracked by your radio.

I like your imagination.  I look forward to the mccorvicard.

Any update? It's almost Q2 of new year.

This tech is getting seriously dated. It won't be much longer before it doesn't even matter anymore.  And old android smartphone & a gotenna transceiver and this tech would be irrelevant.

This is what I'm waiting for, shold have it anyday now.
http://www.coindesk.com/coinjar-swipe-bitcoin-debit-cards-now-available-to-the-public/

I haven't agreed with you much in the past MoonShadow but have to admit you nailed this one.






https://youtube.com/watch?v=hr0rDW5j1KU (https://youtube.com/watch?v=hr0rDW5j1KU)

The tech is mostly not even here yet, actually. Thats why it took so long to build this. Cutting edge tech companies would sign a contract with us, then go out of business, and we'd have to spend 2 months looking for a replacement and redesigning the hardware.

Right now the cards are fully functional. I had one to show at the Miami Bitcoin Conference a few months back. It's fully flexible (board, screen, battery), dirt proof, and water resistant. Has connectors to charge and transmit data, and a radio to do the same. Also has actual working buttons. And despite this, it is still only as thin as a credit card. It would have been ready for production and sale last month, but we discovered that if you flex it too much the gold leads connecting the CPU can cross and short out, so we have had to move the CPU to the other side, and that means redesign the board connections, order more prototypes from the factory, and do more vigorous testing. We hope to get prototypes in around June or so. In the mean time, we also got a $150,000 grant for "innovative hardware" or something, to redesign the UI and make it completely intuitive out-of-the-box. So, if all goes well and all the testing comes back with good results, we may be able to get production going by the end of this fall. Tiny things can cause huge delays with these things.

I'd be interested to see a prototype.

You'd have to show up at a conference in Europe that Mycelium attends. There aren't any prototypes in US unfortunately.

Please share a link to a video meanwhile.

I hope this doesn't end up being MatthewNWrightWare.

https://i.imgur.com/Fctcs.jpg

There is ample evidence that the smartphone Bitcoin wallet is much easier and cheaper to deploy, but the card could be easier to use.

The marketplace decides these things.

can i have one for free

Damn, I was close to forgetting him finally. :)

lol. did you make a bet with him back then?

nahhh  had nothing at gox. :)
  ahh  it wasnt gox bet - it was a pirate bet.....  still no bets with him.

Exactly. With a qr code many things can become a "bitcoin card" The same way that credit cards are coming to phones as well.

I have actually followed this for quite a while now. When are you guys attending a conference next in Europe?

..would already be quite a stretch ;-)

Ente

I want one for me too.

ahaa i forgot that, that was so good

Matt was one of the reasons I got into Bitcoin in the first place. I registered here as CornedBeefHash years ago and got into several lengthy conversations with him. He really was into Bitcoin big time. His trolling and stupid shit like BitTalk.TV, the Christmas Special, fucking with Goat and fucking with Theymos kept me coming back for more. I would accidentally learn a little more each time I came here to see what happy horseshit he was up to today. I ended up mining and saving and making money because of him.

BTW: doesn't Bitcoincard remind you a little of the Ellet vaporware that Matt started? Friggin hilarious.

People think that because they made a video about a unicorn, they actually made a unicorn.  lol - these guys are hilarious.  And so are the jokers who give them any money.

Any updates?

They renamed it "The Ellet" and it's available in this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=85931.0

There still is no "Ellet" it's still all talk as it has been for some time now.

In the words of the immortal George Bernard Shaw, "By Jove! I think he's got it"