Bitcoin Forum

For example, if I mislead someone into sending me a large amount of bitcoins (in the United States) would that be illegal?

If I did not force them to do anything, but they sent them anticipating me to send a product in return, but I never send it.

Would this be considered illegal considering no one would know whether the bitcoin address that received the bitcoins was my address?

if stealing makes u feel better and more complete on the inside by all means do it

A crime is a crime, be there evidence or not.

So the answer is yes.

You might be able to get away with it, but it would definitely be illegal.

Both are crimes.

In the MMO, you will probably get killed unless you are in a non-PVP server. Or banned if the other guy complains and a game master or admin thinks you committed the crime.

If you stole it from a MOB or NPC, maybe that's part of the game.

If you stole it from a player, that player or his guild or his friends may try to get it back. Depends on the rules of the MMO. Maybe you are a thief, or necromancer or whatever. Then the whole world hates you anyway.

In this forum, someone will attempt to dox you. Someone else may then attempt to hunt you down.

In the after life, if you believe in it, you will be damned for all eternity. Unless you confess and repent.

Not sure about the legal part if the law in the country did not clearly touch on crypto payment but one thing for sure it's definitely morally wrong.

Hmm. I see an interesting topic for debate by the OP especially on the anonymity of the address owner

In the US, if the item misappropriated has monetary value then it is a crime. For example, if the value of the sword is > $400-$1000 then in many states it would be considered grand larceny.

Probably Yes. If someone put an economic value in it, maybe because such sword was bought with real bucks (or even with BTC), this is a crime. I'm not sure if nobody put an economic value it this was also a crime, but maybe in some jurisdictions this is also a crime. Also if to steal such a sword you illegally access a computer/network/etc or abuse your access authorization this is another crime for which you will be held responsible.

Taking anything of value from someone else without their explicit consent is considered a crime under most jurisdictions on this planet.
Again, the answer is yes.

Value does not even have to necessarily be monetary, eg. the ashes from your grandmother may not have monetary value, but taking them from you will usually be punishable by law.

Good explanation and I 100% agree, the authority you answer to is irrelevant as that's not defined in "crime"

Ok OP, I've just completed transfer of your bitcoin from the copy of the wallet file I just found on your computer. Now you tell me if I stole it or not.

It's always a lot clearer for the victim.  ;)

I'd so love to see that case in court "NPC Necromancer vs. PC 1337Haxx0R". PC found guilty of holdup murder ;D

And that kids, is why we use ESCROW when dealing with complete strangers.

I think you're try to plan to steal BTC of something else with monetary value; so, I shall stop giving you legal help to avoid being held responsible of aiding someone to commit a crime.
Go earn legit BTC instead of trying to learn to be a scammer & thief.


+1.  ;D

Starting a new business?

It's technically illegal and immoral to steal from people. If you're starting a new theft business this is a good place to get your feet wet and try out new concepts. I would suggest you become a VIP member first. That seems to be the best way to block your identity. You can even stay on this forum after the theft and mock the people you stole from. Another good way to do it is move to Japan and go bankrupt. That will allow you to rent a posh apartment with your stolen money. The most profitable method so far has been to create a website, have everyone send you all their Bitcoins, announce that your hotwallet is stored online with a password like "qwerty"' then retire on the funds. Whatever you do stay away from Texas and never fly into JFK airport. Law enforcement seems to hang out in those locations.

LEOs already have their ways to check anonymized, encrypted email, with TOR, a VPN, etc. don't be so dumb to assume to be untraceable and smarter then LEOs. By the way you confirmed with your own's word you wanto to be a scammer & thief.

I dont know. Encrypted mail with firstname.lastname@mycompany.com would certainly give some clues no matter how good your hid your IP. If you 3 days after the "incident" brag about it in school, there might be someone giving someone else a tipp. If you suddently have a lot more money and start buying fancy stuff, people might start asking questions. If you want to be a scammer, noone will teach you.


It does not matter if you get caught or not. You allready know its wrong, why do you think you called it "stealing" in the first place? Because you know it is.


Realistically OP would probably get away with it depending on the amount in question. The only important question is what kind of person OP wants to be.

Lol i start to develop the same thinking as well. The more we brainstorm, the more ideas and methods are coming.

ask Pirateat40

He knows all about what's illegal...

It is illegal. If you don't get caught in this world, you will be in the next. Whether you believe in local authority or the supreme authority is irrelevant.

The question you should ask yourself is, should I enjoy my temporal and earthly life on this planet in exchange for eternal damnation in the fires of hell? If you don't believe in hell, then you probably won't go there, but is that a chance you are willing to take?

Many crime cases remain unsolved. That does not make them not illegal.

Do you have a conscience? Or are you a cold blooded stealer? Still illegal.

Maybe you want to get into semantics, then you should look at the definition of the word: Illegal, or unlawful, is used to describe something that is prohibited or not authorized by law.

There is at least one authority where stealing bitcoins is illegal. And that one has jurisdiction over everything everywhere. That you may be an atheist only says you don't believe in it, not that it doesn't really exist. Everyone else seems to subscribe to one religion or another.

But for you, maybe you like a life of always looking behind your shoulder, and hoping that the cops aren't there, or that guy you stole bitcoins from isn't about to slit your throat. (Murder is illegal too, but maybe he can get away with it, then tumble your corpse two or three times and completely anonymize what's left, so no one can identify you.)

The best way to do that is to strip the skin from your fingers so there are no prints, rip out the teeth so there are no dental records, and feed your chopped up body parts to other cold blooded reptiles.

You engage with a written or verbal contract to exchange goods, either for money, or goods.

you break that contract, you are subject to being sued in court.

and you will lose.

illegal?  hmmm dont know, maybe criminal code would apply as stealing, but in the very least that's breach of contract under business law and you will get your ass handed to you.

If your body is never found, you might not be considered dead. But you'll still be missing.

The question I like to turn to is: who should bear the costs of law enforcement and prosecution.

If I am victimized by a scammer, are my neighbors obligated to pay the costs of investigating the crime, locating and apprehending the culprit, prosecuting, and then incarcerating him?  If so, does this mean that I have less incentive to protect my Bitcoin and to investigate those I have financial dealings with?  What if all the costs involved add up to more than the value involved - who should decide whether we call it quits on the investigation or not?

Is socialism really a fair way to handle this?

Is there a magic lamp we can rub that will bring forth a genie that will right all wrongs and triumph over evil?

It does not matter how many times you tumble stolen bitcoin, each additional time you tumble them will give you a very small incremental level of anonymity.

Regardless, your victim tracing the path of the bitcoin is not the most likely way you will get caught. You will likely get caught by various methods that you had communicated with him prior to him sending the now stolen bitcoin

The government should bear these costs. It is generally considered that a crime is considered a crime against society as even though someone stole from one person they could easily steal from several others in the future if they are not punished

The magic genie, and less incentive to protect oneself up front, then.

maybe it's not stealing but it would be some kind of fraud

wrong...thats WHY YOU DO NOT CONDUCT BUSINESS WITH COMPLETE STRANGERS!!!  ::)

In fact there is no sure way to collect evidence of such crime, so you might get away with it. And if you are big enough like MTGOX, then it becomes legal :D

Of course it is illegal. Duh. A theft is a theft whether its a virtual or physical good.

The problem is that it can be very hard to prove who did it. The issue you run into is jurisdiciton. Maybe you live in the US but your servers were in europe, so local cyber unit can't help you. Maybe the hacker was from china, so again the problem is jurisidiction. if they are able to identify the hacker, they can get an warrant for him through interpol, as you saw recently the US brought charges against chinese intelligence officers for hacking american computer systems.

So, you can go to the cops, but most of them are ill equipped to handle it, and the ones who are probably won't do much other than file a report unless it was a very large amount. For example, a theft like what happened at mt.gox, you gotta think that there is a global effort to identify the purp (or purps). Most likely someone like the FBI is investigating it. The high profile cases will get investigated, while the small cases will mostly be ignored.

Since the IRS has defined BTC as "property"...
Yes, it is stealing... and stealing a large amount of Crypto is Grand Larceny... and jail time.

The problem is that most thefts:

(a)  cannot be proved beyond a reasonable doubt

(b)  are claimed to be a "hack"

(c)  are structured as "bad investments"...
Like the mcxNOW $5 million Grand Larceny in 2013 by RealSolid.

For example...
The NXT AE has about $20,000,000 or more in "asset bubbles"...
Backed by nothing more than the promise to develop some software...
Not unlike 1000 Silicon Valley startups.

It's extremely likely these "assets" are deliberately structured as a "bad investment"...
Where eventually the SuperNet people will pay off 25%... and make off with the rest.

LIFE RULE #1

If anyone says:

"I have enough money" or "I'm doing it for the community/love/tech"... they are lying.

Don't matter what you playing with. Cash, car, currency. If you mislead someone and someone can prove that this is illegal.

lol no. its legal of course.  ;D



http://gifstumblr.com/images/forever-in-jail_498.gif

thats like saying:
if killing someone without witnesses or evidence makes killing them ok.. then you really need to see someone about them.

hurting anyone or causing anyone a loss, whether its death, financial or other is wrong and under common law unlawful... getting caught and or punished for it is a different story.

What kind of dumb shit are you?

If i come into your house, rape your mom, make you literally lick her shit off my dick and take all valuable goods, then leave without my trace of identity (i wear a mask ok? ). It doesnt matter what i did was a crime or not right? Because police cant prove its me that do it right?

DUMB fck were your mom gangbanged while carrying you?

Yeah, this is fraud which is illegal in the US.


Pretty much, yes.  Depending on the amount you may find it difficult to hide yourself adequately but the tools exist.


No, the legality still matters.  The presence of the law causes both the thief and law enforcement to expend more resources.

I hope your kidding. If your not trolling and its an honest question, then I really am scared for society. its called fraud at the very least and theft at best.. You have to be trolling...

its called fraud ie theft

"Is stealing ______ illegal?"


Seriously?

lol

I guess stealing anything that someone considers to have value is illegal. I'm pretty sure if you were stealing dog turds from someone's yard it wouldn't really be stealing as no one likely would see any value in dog shit.

Good question.  Off the top of my head: I feel some form of insurance would be in order.


Legally obligated? In almost all jurisdictions: yes, where "neighbour" is suitably broad.
Morally obligated? Not in my opinion although I suspect I'm in the minority.


Ah!  That's a rather ugly nest of moral hazards.


Highly subjective.  A yes (resp. no) answer almost defines one as being a collectivist (resp. individualist).


Does wiping out all sentient life on Earth count?  If not then probably "no".

It is not always possible to detect all scams ahead of time. As with any transaction, one of you needs to send the other either bitcoin or goods being purchased first. There will always be a risk to someone that the counter party will scam, there is no way around this. Even with escrow there is a chance that the escrow could scam.

Also if someone steals all of your money from you then how are you suppose to finance a criminal prosecution?

Bitcoins aren't really controlled by a central government and a lawsuit in American ground probably wouldn't turn out too well for the accuser, so we step into this subjective nature of morality.  If there were some sort of universal laws of morality, it would probably indicate that stealing is wrong, but what do I know. 

why is there any if or but about it

trendon shavers(BS&T) asked people for funds in exchange for profits.. which he later did not return.. he is now dealing with court cases.
sonny V (BFL) asked for funds in exchange for mining rigs.. which he did not deliver. he is now dealing with court cases.
mark karpeles(mtgox) accepted funds for people to trade on his unsecure website.. the funds have not be returned. he is now dealing with court cases
Ross Ulbricht(silkroad) accepted funds for people to trade on his drug dealing website. he is now dealing with court cases.

in short, just because your using bitcoins does not mean illegal activity is not illegal. drug use, theft, fraud, extortion, blackmail. its still illegal, just slightly harder to catch you

It doesn't matter if bitcoin is controlled by the government. It is still property. If someone steals you car (which is also not controlled by the government) they would be guilty of grand theft larceny. The same principle applies with stealing bitcoin.

..or easier! ?  ;)

No matter which way you try to smother it, A crime is still a crime. So beware of the crime. ::) :o 8)

I THOUGHT THATS WHY THERE WAS BITCOIN SO PEOPLE KAINT GET CAUGHT DOING SHADELESS STUFF?  ::)

he's right, crime is crime
and stealing is one kind of crime
and absolutely is illegal

maybe this topic is in the top 10 of the dumbest topics ever  :P

This is the dumbest question I have ever heard. Cant be serious. Same as, Is it ok for me to Kill someone if nobody ever finds out that I did it? wow.

'murica

Yes stealing property (bitcoin included) is illegal. Yes getting someone to give you property under false pretenses is illegal. It does not matter what the property that is being stolen is, as long as it has value it would be considered to be stealing

Stealing anything is illegal..  8) But is it punishable by law? Then its a big NO for you.

Stealing anything is illegal. I dont understand how you can doubt this.

Bumped for posterity ;D

I respectfully disagree on this one. That's almost what I say all the time, and you can look up my post history. But maybe I'm the exception.

Are you a troll?

FBI caught Silk Road and many others, who were using these techniques, so there is always some risk of getting caught.

In fact using all that results in a truckload of extra charges in addition to fraud, and those caught will go to jail until all Bitcoins have been mined, LOL

BTC is money, so if u scam someone to send u money, of course its illegal.
how old are u 12 ?

You'll have to ask BFL

Stealing anything is illegal, even bitcoins, if: 1) there is a law; 2) if someone makes a valid claim against someone who stole the bitcoins.

Stealing anything is wrong. Maybe it is not illegal. But it is wrong. The things that make it illegal are as listed in the first paragraph above, and repeated here:
1. If there is a law against it;
2. If someone makes a valid claim that someone else has stolen his bitcoins, thereby depriving him of his property unlawfully.

:)

what if you steal a thieves' bitcoins, like the people that stole from Silk Road

morality, legality on that?    :)

LET'S DO THIS! LOL  ;D  >>> STORM THE CASTLE!!! WEEEEEE
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/13/1271173556471/Robin-Hood-Errol-Flynn-002.jpg

This would still be illegal. The reason or person that you steal from does not matter in the eyes of the law, although stealing certain high amounts or stealing from certain people can be treated more harshly.

The fact that bitcoin is fungible means that you cannot determine if the bitcoin that was stolen from SR is the "same" bitcoin that you stole from the thief

Only if you get caught and reported i guess.

Just trade for them, using bitcointalk as a moral compass is a bit funny. If you do/dont based on law rather than knowing what is wrong/right then that is a bigger issue :D

I think Beliathon believes 'property' is an invalid concept. I wonder if he or she will be contributing to this thread?

You really cannot use robin-hood economics to justify breaking the law. The court system does not accept this and although it may be an unpopular decision, you would be found guilty if caught

Illegal is unlawful. For something to be illegal it has to be specified in written law. Most countries don't have a policy on bitcoin, so stealing it isn't illegal.

It depends.
It would have to go to court:
The court would have to get the evidence. You shouldn't do it, that's all.

If you don't get caught, you deserve everything you steal. ;)

Stealing isn't always illegal, see cyprus bank haircut case.
Stealing bitcoins isn't always illegal, it's legal when it's based on a court order.
Stealing is just morally wrong because the term 'to steal' is used to describe 'bad manner'.

No.

But the Bitcoin community will fuck you hard if you do.

Even in some places where btc is deemed as commodity not currency, it's still a crime to steal.

Yes it is. PS; You will also go to hell if u dont ask for forgiveness!  :-* :-*

Stealing in any circumstances is not legal. This risk of getting caught is not worth it.

~but i'm robin hood bitches !   ;D   lol

This is one of the major factors which is driving away the average person from using Bitcoins. If Bitcoins can be stolen from places like Mt Gox and Sheep Marketplace, then they can be stolen from just anyone else, despite whatever precautions they take.

If Bitcoins can be stolen from places like Mt Gox and Sheep Marketplace that didn't take all possible precautions ... that somehow means that no matter what precautions you take you can't keep them secure?

I'm not following that.

I think your question is " Can the fact that I stole bitcoins be proven?"

Well, that statement just sucked 50 IQ points off everyone.

Most countries don't have a policy on tiddlywinks, either. However, stealing a kid's tiddlywinks is still theft. Punishable by law. As is stealing Bitcoins. Whether or not specifically addressed by proper name in the text of the law.

No one will investigate the theft of Diablo 3 gold or WoW gold. In fact, even Blizzard support  will not do anything, not to mention the police. So yes, in most countries(which did not recognize  Bitcoin as currency or property), stealing bitcoins isn't illegal...

Theft of any tangible property is illegal. Period.

'Splain me why Trendon Shavers owes the feds several million dollars?

I've not read Blizzard's TOS. Never had a reason to. I rather imagine that they state that 'the user acknowledges that any 'theft' of in-game currency is not a theft of any property of the user'. Hell, the TOS may even state that all in-game assets are the property of Blizzard.

Yes.

If the state does not recognize that Bitcoin is the property, then???
I'm pretty sure that if your Bitcoins are stolen in China, the Chinese authorities will not seek criminal. So it isn't illegal...

Or I invented an even better example:
Drugs are illegal almost everywhere. So if someone steal your drugs, it isn't illegal. Because it will be not punishable by law. Because no one go to the police with a statement: "My drugs are stolen"  :D

Is the rare mmo sword being stolen or ninja'd?

If the sword is being ninja'd then the games loot mechanics might come into question, and whether or not it's a guild and there was a pre-existing agreement. Or if it was a disagreement in a PUG.

As a former wow player, I'm not sure how one would outright steal the loot.

Maybe in Everquest though?

WoW and most games in general do not apply here. Read their TOS, its not your property you are just allowed to play with it, thus it can never be stolen from you. Thats why they can ban you for selling gold.

ahhhhhh gotcha.

so the question is if you have access via a private key to a spot on the blockchain, is the balance on that spot considered property?

What the hell is wrong with this OP ???
Are you serious? ::)

It is technically true that you do not own bitcoin and in fact noone owns bitcoins. We are -in the terminology- just allowed to "play" with them because we "own" certain private keys.
The interesting (philosophical) question is whether someone can rightfully claim exclusive ownership over certain information.
I think this is covered by law in most countries regardless. In germany this would probably fall under §202a StGB the so called "Hacker paragraph". Its basically electronically trespassing. The law just requires that you are not allowed the access the information/data by me and I secured it/them in a reasonable way.
Whether or not this would eventually end in front of a judge is something completely different.

Hey dumb fck , might as well use North Korean as your example.

Your analogy about drugs speak volume about your intelligence.

What if bitcoins are stolen without hack? For example "Random generator" bug(like was https://bitcoin.org/en/alert/2013-08-11-android )  or if two people use same phrase for generate bitcoin address via "brainwallet".

Not sure if "guessing the same seed for a brainwallet" counts as "overcome the accessrestriction". I am no lawyer but it think both of these would fall under "sucks to be you". Bugs are (assumed to be) not intentional and brainwallets that can easily be guess are no "accressrestriction".

Is there any known ruling about stolen bitcoin in any country?

Stealing shit is illegal too.

You are a comple and nasty individual to think andact through such an act. I have reported you to the moderators. I hope one day you gain some humility for your fellow man. How very dare you.

Correctly guessing the passphriase to a brainwallet is on very shaky grounds however it likely not illegal. Since the controller of the private key is the defacto owner of the bitcoin controlled by the private key, since the person guessing brain wallets would control the private key they would be the owner of the bitcoin they move out of the brainwallet.

I think the moderators would not be bothered about somebody asking hypothetical questions in this forum. :)

Is this an actual topic of discussion?

It is a crime, and one that is hard to prove and trace.  I am not sure if anybody has been brought to justice yet for stealing bitcoins.

Actual Prosecution rarely happens

Well, maybe this user was speaking hypothetically, still you are right. If the idea comes the the head, another one could make it real. Stealing Bitcoins may be some sort of a "perfect crime"..

I've had some stolen.
fucks.

Perfect crime doesn't exist; instead, we have sloppy investigations.

I'm absolutely fascinated that people like you exist.  Tell me about your parents.   Were they cussing, drinking, smoking parents who were physically abusive to you?   Do you think maybe you were born with some portions of your brain turned off (aka psycopath / no ability for empathy, etc) ?  

What is it that results in a human being like you?  

Are you aware that most of the world struggles with severe pain, both emotionally, physically, and otherwise because people like you exist?  Wars, tortures, bloodshed, death, sadness, starvation, and misery originates with people who think ... like you.   There are people around the world have to dedicate their entire lives to helping those that people like you hurt.  

What is it that goes on inside the mind of someone like yourself, when you realize that you are the personification of everything most people are disgusted by, in human nature?

Just curious.

-B-

You are a thief and a criminal.  Yes it is stealing and a felony if it is a large enough amount, depends on the state.  If they can catch you, thats another story.  If they cant catch 800k coins stolen from mt gox, I doubt you will get in trouble.

Is a crime illegal?

Of course it's illegal & it's a crime . even if they won't catch you
now depends on your ethics & conscience .

Its illegal, Because BTC is worth irl money.

I am sick of such discussions.

Let's say you are in a country where Bitcoin is ilegal, and you steal Bitcoin... is stealing ilegal Bitcoins ilegal?

yes it's called fraud
now crawl back under the stone you came from

Jesus Christ and all Mother of The Holys is this REALLY a 6 page thread? Yes stealing bitcoins is illegal through fraud. Which is the "wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain."

Seriously, do kids not have access to a dictionary or Google these days FFS?!?!

There are a lot of people that are like this, it is just that many are not as open about it. It happens enough so that the market for anti theft devices and security for inventory slippage is very large.

To answer IsaacDestruction's question, not necessarily. It is very well possible that your execution of this would somehow leak your identity. It would be possible that you somehow have some setting mid-configured and your IP address and identity would leak or your VPN is not as anon as they advertise themselves to be. If this were to happen then law enforcement would probably be additionally harsh in bringing charges against you as you had taken steps to hide your identity to avoid prosecution.   

its called fraud ie theft

Stealing anything at all, irrespective of value, is illegal.

illegal! and also harm other people! remember your sins! :P

Eat more paint chips and think harder to come up with something easier

well it looks like a crime but it needs to be proven and stuck to the person, and it is hard since bitcoin address is hard to be related to the person

Since you've made this post there's not pre-meditation, sounds like you're planning to do this, which would also likely make it illegal and increase the penalty.

What country do you live and what are you trying to sell?

If stealing in your country is illegal, then yes. Stealing is stealing no matter what you steal.

you cant steal magic internet money. so its ok i guess.

If you did that with fiat money would it be illegal? If the answer is yes, then it is illegal. Simple as that.

Isn't this just plain and simple fraud?

Both parties agreed to swap goods/services for bitcoin, except you didn't send the goods and accepted the bitcoin.

Quite a large sum of existing bitcoins are stolen, so wouldn't it be a crime to accept bitcoins in the first place?  :-X

But bitcoins don't actually exist as such, but as spaces in a ledger with a transaction history. Or am I mistaken?

It is not actually possible to "steal" bitcoin as bitcoin is fungible and do not physically exist. The same logic goes for accepting bitcoin that can be traced back to "stolen" bitcoin.

What is illegal is the act of hacking a computer/some kind of account that contains a person's private keys. This is somewhat of a different crime, however generally will have similar, if not worse consequences

Well, if someone has his wallet on a usb pendrive, don't they exist physically throught that usb pendrive?

No. Only the private keys would be stored on the USB drive. The private keys are what allow the inputs that have been sent to the BTC address to be spent. There would be no "balance" on the USB drive. This is a very difficult concept for many people to grasp and is very different from how traditional banking/assets works

U can try, but g-d will probably take over and forbid it

You cannot steal bitcoin as they do not actually exist in reality. You can only steal data that controls bitcoin

i think word "stealing" explains it all
theft is theft, no matter what you are stealing, its a crime

Well, there are sometimes other factors and sometimes people have differing opinions on what theft is, ie with copywrite theft.

RIAA have warped the kiddies minds... now they can't tell difference between filesharing and stealing, since RIAA insist filesharing is stealing and everybody with an ounce of common sense knows it isn't. So moving any data now looks like filesharing. To be a theft, the use of the data has to be denied of the owner. All the rest are IP or copyright violations, and method of obtaining may be the greater crime than possession.

So, you do anything to anybody else's bitcoins that denies them the future use of those bitcoins, it's theft.

Just to spell it out, this is a crime. Crimes draw cops. Interactions with cops have a nonzero chance of you being shot dead.

It depend on every country's regulation

At my country, Bitcoin isn't being notice yet
so my goverment still doesn't make any regulation regarding bitcoin.
   
Therefore , stealing bitcoin is legal

But my conscience says, illegal

I doubt it...

Laws against theft in general, do not need to specifically mention bitcoin in order to protect it. Does the law have to be amended for every new iPhone that comes out in order to make stealing it illegal? No.

If you built a picnic table out of wood grown on your own land, and had some reasonable proof that you did so (Photo etc) and it was stolen, would it need a special law to legally recognise that picnic table before you could report it stolen? No.

It's obviously a crime as you have stolen someone elses property (even though it's digital), but whether the police would be able to do anything about it is another matter.

I'd stick an "immediately" in there. In 5-10 years, all police may have computing resources for deep blockchain analysis, and be able to "clear up" old theft and fraud reports with a couple of mouse clicks. Should the jurisdiction they are in be letting the department keep a proportion of the fine or court award against the thief or fraudster, you become a cash cow to be milked.

As far as I know according to IRS bitcoin should treated as property. If it's property then stealing it is a crime.

I guess stealing bitcoins would have been a crime even before the IRS recognized it as property.
Stealing is stealing, after all.

Of course it's illegal.  It's a federal offence to steal something of value.

This will probably be much more difficult they you imply, especially for smaller amounts.

It is very difficult to know when a transaction is sending bitcoin to another person or just a transfer to yourself (plus if you properly use change addresses, almost every transaction will include one transfer to yourself).

Even if stolen bitcoin is transferred directly to an exchange, it is possible that the exchange could go out of business sometime between now and 10 years from now, leaving behind no records, so even if it is determined that an address associated with stolen bitcoin belongs to a specific exchange (who verified someone's identity) it may not be possible to determine who exactly was behind the transaction

Theft is theft, there are no two ways about it. No different to someone hacking into a bank and transferring small amounts out of different accounts without being noticed.

not being noticed doesn't make it not illegal

Yes stealing bitcoin in this construction is illegal.

Why wouldn't stealing bitcoins not be illegal?

It's money like any other form of currency.  Stealing money is illegal, no matter the means or how, so stealing Bitcoins is illegal as well.

In germany it would not be theft, since bitcoins are not 'things' (physical objects).
Instead it would be fraud / hacking / sabotage or something similar.

Well, who cares about Laws, anyway?

It is enough to know that this would be a harmful act to decide not to engage in acting this way.

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2ibg3a0.jpg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muHg86Mys7I)

We do not need anyone to create stupid laws that tell us what to do or not to do. As long as you respect others' Life, Liberty and Property you know you are doing the right thing.


 ;)

All "wrongdoing" is unlawful if the harmed/damaged person files a complaint. If the complaint is upheld in court, then the wrongdoing becomes illegal, even if it wasn't illegal before.

:)

I hope whoever you are fucking over holds you personally accountable for the worth of every dollar.  People like you need to dissapear.

This slightly different use case has probably been discussed here before, but I think it also belongs in this thread.

I struggle with what it means to own private keys.  I think we just "know" the private keys.  Anyone who knows the private key has complete access to the associated bitcoin.  So if I try some obscure brainwallet phrase and discover a long unattended address with BTC, is this the same kind of theft as the OP's fraud use case?

Since we can't communicate a warning shot to the person who set up a bad brainwallet passphrase, how can any be sure that the private keys have not been lost due to bad memory/security proceedures?  That might be the same thing as finding a $20 bill in the middle of Central Park in NYC. Untraceable owner and no confidence that the authorities can get the money to the rightful owner.  Most people would treat it as a windfall, and no one would consider it theft.  I think this last point depends on the amount of money found -- if you found a satchel of $100,000 cash, taking it to the authorities would make sense.

But back to the question of "knowing" vs. "owning" private keys.  Can there be clear delineation of how to interpret this?

Pretty obvious answer... right?  ???

Well he does bring up a very good point. If you are dealing with someone who is anonymous to you then you should assume that he is anonymous overall and should take the associated precautions when trading with such person

Absolutely, everyone should do their research, and the people who don't, get scammed.  That being said I have no love for someone who makes profit solely based on fucking people from the community over.   It's dumb.  If you want to make some money on the black market get someone who's in the BS industry you're in, better yet, give a shot at starting a legitimate website or business.  Preying on innocent people as a source of revenue is bitch work, nothing more.

I am not sure how exactly to define how someone can "own" a private key. I would however say that it would generally be considered to be 'stealing" bitcoin in the event that you use some kind of exploit to learn what someone else's private key is

yes if you can steal them it is illegal, as per the views of US government right now and a lot of other countries Bitcoins are property and whenever you seize property that does not belong to you thru actions of theft it is illegal and punishable by law. if the value of the theft is over 1000 dollars in most cases it is upgraded to a felony charge and can get maximum sentancing. so if you steal as little as 3 BTC you have committed a felony in the eyes of American law :)

Stealing is ilegal
I don't care how you do it, but stealing is a big crime

Even no law regulate about bitcoin, you must know already stealing is crime & ilegal
Don't forget your sins  >:(

Well, at least it is a "moral question". As someone said above, discovering someone else's private key would be more or less like finding someone else's money:

There's the possibility that the rightfull owner had lost (does not know anymore) that private key (in the case of the found money, it was a "lost money"), and as a consequence the bitcoins would have been lost anyway: in this situation, as it would be "impossible" to find the owner, I believe "recovering" the coins to the ownership of the "person finder" is acceptable.

But there's also the possibility that the "original rightful owner" still has knowledge of the private key (maybe it's someone else's cold storage). In this case, it would be totally wrong to steal the bitcoins from that "found" address. (for the example of the found money, it could be a "hidden treasure").

As it can be very hard to discern the situation (if it was lost or hidden money) the person who eventually collides with someone else's address will be in a moral dillema situation.... But, anyway, key collisions are virtually impossible to happen, fortunately...

There are big differences between finding a few hundred dollar bills on the street and "finding" someone's private keys that control bitcoin. On one hand finding cash means that no matter what you do with it, the "real" owner will not be able to realize it's spending power.

With bitcoin on the other hand, it is possible for two people to "know" the private keys but only person took actions to have something of value caused to be sent to the corresponding public key

No matter what you steal you are thief. But in Bitcoin only way to proove that this is your btc is to be owner of private key

for me this is 100% illegal !!! and a huge lack of respect!

Stealing is ilegal so stealing bitcoin is ilegal too
And stealing is worng & bad thing too

And top of that, that mean you can't gain by yourself

That is interesting.
I didn't know that there was a threshold for the amount stolen to decide the severity of the crime.
In my country, I don't think that the quantity involved has an impact on the punishment for the crime.

Yes it is illegal,

Thinking of Trendon Shavers and Pirateat40 when referencing this case, good old Trendon is now paying for his crimes of running a ponzi scheme for investors and then running with the funds, and making a mess here.

If you think you won't eventually be traced to your btc address, you are smoking dope
Honesty pays, don't be a jerk

isnt it not real money and everything that is done with it cant be illegal?

Sure, tell that to the SEC they will have a nice seat waiting for you in the hall ^^
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/complaints/2013/comp-pr2013-132.pdf

This Court has jurisdiction over this action pursuant to Sections 20 and 22 of the
Securities Act of 1933 (“Securities Act”) [15 U.S.C. §§ 77t and 77v] and Sections 21and 27 of
the Exchange Act of 1934 (“Exchange Act”) [15 U.S.C. §§ 78u and 78aa].

7. Venue is proper in this district under Section 22(a) of the Securities Act and
Section 27 of the Exchange Act [15 U.S.C. §§ 77v(a) and 78aa] because Defendants may be
found in and are inhabitants of McKinney, Texas; and because certain of the acts, practices,
transactions and courses of business alleged herein occurred within the Eastern District of Texas

I could not explain differently about stealing , in general, to be legal.

In almost all jurisdiction exists some threshold on the amount stolen to calibrate the sentencing terms. Relative big amounts get harsher terms while relative small amounts get lesser terms. You know stealing 100$ to a Bill Gates type is not the same as robbing him of 100$ million.

Most of the bitcoin theft happens electronically by hackers, which makes it almost impossible to trace.
Even if a site like Mtgox, shuts down, then they can just say that the coins were compromised by a hacker, and there is almost no way to prove that they are responsible for it.

With got at least there is some level of evidence that attackers were stealing coins from them. With a site like gox it is somewhat possible to trace who got/took what as there are records of who requested what withdrawals so they should be able to determine who was overpaid/was able to over withdraw (I think that many people who receive extra from gox did so unknowingly)

You need to remember that the common denominator is that stealing any amount of anything valuable is going to be a crime. The only difference is in the penalty

There is got to be intent and with btc theft... It's done by hackers with malware and exploits etc it's like walking around with a burglary kit and "testing" windows to see if they're locked.
There is no innocently stumbled across btc being found. Unless OP was merely alluding to the 6.4 btc someone grabbed out of my computer with a total exploit I had to wipe my HD to get rid of, then yeah... Giving it back is the right thing to do.

Thefts of things far less tangible and fungible than bitcoin, such as virtual items from MMPORGs have been prosecuted.