Is stealing bitcoins illegal?

[ChuckBuck]

Why wouldn't stealing bitcoins not be illegal?

It's money like any other form of currency.  Stealing money is illegal, no matter the means or how, so stealing Bitcoins is illegal as well.

[Schleicher]

In germany it would not be theft, since bitcoins are not 'things' (physical objects).
Instead it would be fraud / hacking / sabotage or something similar.

[raganius]

Well, who cares about Laws, anyway?

It is enough to know that this would be a harmful act to decide not to engage in acting this way.



We do not need anyone to create stupid laws that tell us what to do or not to do. As long as you respect others' Life, Liberty and Property you know you are doing the right thing.


 

[BADecker]

All "wrongdoing" is unlawful if the harmed/damaged person files a complaint. If the complaint is upheld in court, then the wrongdoing becomes illegal, even if it wasn't illegal before.

[sobitcoin]

Alright, since the general consensus is that stealing bitcoins is illegal.
If I discontinue the use of communication with said person (from a way that can be linked back to my IP address) and continue the conversation on an anonymized, encrypted email, with TOR, a VPN, and tails, and then execute said plan, law enforcement would have no way to prove that it was me who committed the crime and I would not be held accountable due to lack of evidence that it was me, correct?

I hope whoever you are fucking over holds you personally accountable for the worth of every dollar.  People like you need to dissapear.

[blossbloss]

This slightly different use case has probably been discussed here before, but I think it also belongs in this thread.

I struggle with what it means to own private keys.  I think we just "know" the private keys.  Anyone who knows the private key has complete access to the associated bitcoin.  So if I try some obscure brainwallet phrase and discover a long unattended address with BTC, is this the same kind of theft as the OP's fraud use case?

Since we can't communicate a warning shot to the person who set up a bad brainwallet passphrase, how can any be sure that the private keys have not been lost due to bad memory/security proceedures?  That might be the same thing as finding a $20 bill in the middle of Central Park in NYC. Untraceable owner and no confidence that the authorities can get the money to the rightful owner.  Most people would treat it as a windfall, and no one would consider it theft.  I think this last point depends on the amount of money found -- if you found a satchel of $100,000 cash, taking it to the authorities would make sense.

But back to the question of "knowing" vs. "owning" private keys.  Can there be clear delineation of how to interpret this?

[Robtc91]

Pretty obvious answer... right? 

[malaimult]

Alright, since the general consensus is that stealing bitcoins is illegal.
If I discontinue the use of communication with said person (from a way that can be linked back to my IP address) and continue the conversation on an anonymized, encrypted email, with TOR, a VPN, and tails, and then execute said plan, law enforcement would have no way to prove that it was me who committed the crime and I would not be held accountable due to lack of evidence that it was me, correct?

I hope whoever you are fucking over holds you personally accountable for the worth of every dollar.  People like you need to dissapear.

Well he does bring up a very good point. If you are dealing with someone who is anonymous to you then you should assume that he is anonymous overall and should take the associated precautions when trading with such person

[sobitcoin]

Alright, since the general consensus is that stealing bitcoins is illegal.
If I discontinue the use of communication with said person (from a way that can be linked back to my IP address) and continue the conversation on an anonymized, encrypted email, with TOR, a VPN, and tails, and then execute said plan, law enforcement would have no way to prove that it was me who committed the crime and I would not be held accountable due to lack of evidence that it was me, correct?

I hope whoever you are fucking over holds you personally accountable for the worth of every dollar.  People like you need to dissapear.

Well he does bring up a very good point. If you are dealing with someone who is anonymous to you then you should assume that he is anonymous overall and should take the associated precautions when trading with such person

Absolutely, everyone should do their research, and the people who don't, get scammed.  That being said I have no love for someone who makes profit solely based on fucking people from the community over.   It's dumb.  If you want to make some money on the black market get someone who's in the BS industry you're in, better yet, give a shot at starting a legitimate website or business.  Preying on innocent people as a source of revenue is bitch work, nothing more.

[exoton]

This slightly different use case has probably been discussed here before, but I think it also belongs in this thread.

I struggle with what it means to own private keys.  I think we just "know" the private keys.  Anyone who knows the private key has complete access to the associated bitcoin.  So if I try some obscure brainwallet phrase and discover a long unattended address with BTC, is this the same kind of theft as the OP's fraud use case?

Since we can't communicate a warning shot to the person who set up a bad brainwallet passphrase, how can any be sure that the private keys have not been lost due to bad memory/security proceedures?  That might be the same thing as finding a $20 bill in the middle of Central Park in NYC. Untraceable owner and no confidence that the authorities can get the money to the rightful owner.  Most people would treat it as a windfall, and no one would consider it theft.  I think this last point depends on the amount of money found -- if you found a satchel of $100,000 cash, taking it to the authorities would make sense.

But back to the question of "knowing" vs. "owning" private keys.  Can there be clear delineation of how to interpret this?

I am not sure how exactly to define how someone can "own" a private key. I would however say that it would generally be considered to be 'stealing" bitcoin in the event that you use some kind of exploit to learn what someone else's private key is

[cyberpinoy]

yes if you can steal them it is illegal, as per the views of US government right now and a lot of other countries Bitcoins are property and whenever you seize property that does not belong to you thru actions of theft it is illegal and punishable by law. if the value of the theft is over 1000 dollars in most cases it is upgraded to a felony charge and can get maximum sentancing. so if you steal as little as 3 BTC you have committed a felony in the eyes of American law

[sandykho47]

Stealing is ilegal
I don't care how you do it, but stealing is a big crime

Even no law regulate about bitcoin, you must know already stealing is crime & ilegal
Don't forget your sins 

[raganius]

This slightly different use case has probably been discussed here before, but I think it also belongs in this thread.

I struggle with what it means to own private keys.  I think we just "know" the private keys.  Anyone who knows the private key has complete access to the associated bitcoin.  So if I try some obscure brainwallet phrase and discover a long unattended address with BTC, is this the same kind of theft as the OP's fraud use case?

Since we can't communicate a warning shot to the person who set up a bad brainwallet passphrase, how can any be sure that the private keys have not been lost due to bad memory/security proceedures?  That might be the same thing as finding a $20 bill in the middle of Central Park in NYC. Untraceable owner and no confidence that the authorities can get the money to the rightful owner.  Most people would treat it as a windfall, and no one would consider it theft.  I think this last point depends on the amount of money found -- if you found a satchel of $100,000 cash, taking it to the authorities would make sense.

But back to the question of "knowing" vs. "owning" private keys.  Can there be clear delineation of how to interpret this?

I am not sure how exactly to define how someone can "own" a private key. I would however say that it would generally be considered to be 'stealing" bitcoin in the event that you use some kind of exploit to learn what someone else's private key is

Well, at least it is a "moral question". As someone said above, discovering someone else's private key would be more or less like finding someone else's money:

There's the possibility that the rightfull owner had lost (does not know anymore) that private key (in the case of the found money, it was a "lost money"), and as a consequence the bitcoins would have been lost anyway: in this situation, as it would be "impossible" to find the owner, I believe "recovering" the coins to the ownership of the "person finder" is acceptable.

But there's also the possibility that the "original rightful owner" still has knowledge of the private key (maybe it's someone else's cold storage). In this case, it would be totally wrong to steal the bitcoins from that "found" address. (for the example of the found money, it could be a "hidden treasure").

As it can be very hard to discern the situation (if it was lost or hidden money) the person who eventually collides with someone else's address will be in a moral dillema situation.... But, anyway, key collisions are virtually impossible to happen, fortunately...

[exoton]

This slightly different use case has probably been discussed here before, but I think it also belongs in this thread.

I struggle with what it means to own private keys.  I think we just "know" the private keys.  Anyone who knows the private key has complete access to the associated bitcoin.  So if I try some obscure brainwallet phrase and discover a long unattended address with BTC, is this the same kind of theft as the OP's fraud use case?

Since we can't communicate a warning shot to the person who set up a bad brainwallet passphrase, how can any be sure that the private keys have not been lost due to bad memory/security proceedures?  That might be the same thing as finding a $20 bill in the middle of Central Park in NYC. Untraceable owner and no confidence that the authorities can get the money to the rightful owner.  Most people would treat it as a windfall, and no one would consider it theft.  I think this last point depends on the amount of money found -- if you found a satchel of $100,000 cash, taking it to the authorities would make sense.

But back to the question of "knowing" vs. "owning" private keys.  Can there be clear delineation of how to interpret this?

I am not sure how exactly to define how someone can "own" a private key. I would however say that it would generally be considered to be 'stealing" bitcoin in the event that you use some kind of exploit to learn what someone else's private key is

Well, at least it is a "moral question". As someone said above, discovering someone else's private key would be more or less like finding someone else's money:

There's the possibility that the rightfull owner had lost (does not know anymore) that private key (in the case of the found money, it was a "lost money"), and as a consequence the bitcoins would have been lost anyway: in this situation, as it would be "impossible" to find the owner, I believe "recovering" the coins to the ownership of the "person finder" is acceptable.

But there's also the possibility that the "original rightful owner" still has knowledge of the private key (maybe it's someone else's cold storage). In this case, it would be totally wrong to steal the bitcoins from that "found" address. (for the example of the found money, it could be a "hidden treasure").

As it can be very hard to discern the situation (if it was lost or hidden money) the person who eventually collides with someone else's address will be in a moral dillema situation.... But, anyway, key collisions are virtually impossible to happen, fortunately...

There are big differences between finding a few hundred dollar bills on the street and "finding" someone's private keys that control bitcoin. On one hand finding cash means that no matter what you do with it, the "real" owner will not be able to realize it's spending power.

With bitcoin on the other hand, it is possible for two people to "know" the private keys but only person took actions to have something of value caused to be sent to the corresponding public key

[junglist.massive]

For example, if I mislead someone into sending me a large amount of bitcoins (in the United States) would that be illegal?

If I did not force them to do anything, but they sent them anticipating me to send a product in return, but I never send it.

Would this be considered illegal considering no one would know whether the bitcoin address that received the bitcoins was my address?

No matter what you steal you are thief. But in Bitcoin only way to proove that this is your btc is to be owner of private key

[mlferro]

for me this is 100% illegal !!! and a huge lack of respect!

[botany]

yes if you can steal them it is illegal, as per the views of US government right now and a lot of other countries Bitcoins are property and whenever you seize property that does not belong to you thru actions of theft it is illegal and punishable by law. if the value of the theft is over 1000 dollars in most cases it is upgraded to a felony charge and can get maximum sentancing. so if you steal as little as 3 BTC you have committed a felony in the eyes of American law

That is interesting.
I didn't know that there was a threshold for the amount stolen to decide the severity of the crime.
In my country, I don't think that the quantity involved has an impact on the punishment for the crime.

[freedomno1]

For example, if I mislead someone into sending me a large amount of bitcoins (in the United States) would that be illegal?

If I did not force them to do anything, but they sent them anticipating me to send a product in return, but I never send it.

Would this be considered illegal considering no one would know whether the bitcoin address that received the bitcoins was my address?

Yes it is illegal,

Thinking of Trendon Shavers and Pirateat40 when referencing this case, good old Trendon is now paying for his crimes of running a ponzi scheme for investors and then running with the funds, and making a mess here.

[Divinespark]

If you think you won't eventually be traced to your btc address, you are smoking dope
Honesty pays, don't be a jerk

[elephantas1]

For example, if I mislead someone into sending me a large amount of bitcoins (in the United States) would that be illegal?

If I did not force them to do anything, but they sent them anticipating me to send a product in return, but I never send it.

Would this be considered illegal considering no one would know whether the bitcoin address that received the bitcoins was my address?

Yes it is illegal,

Thinking of Trendon Shavers and Pirateat40 when referencing this case, good old Trendon is now paying for his crimes of running a ponzi scheme for investors and then running with the funds, and making a mess here.

isnt it not real money and everything that is done with it cant be illegal?