People will always want free money, that is in their nature, and I understand in some situations but you have to find the difference between the silly one and reasonable one.
For example, USA government is giving away money to people, that sort of makes sense, I think instead of giving money they should have actually do it reverse and pay everyone's debt, that would have been a lot better, and that way you would have to talk with less people, just the ones that are owed and you would pay more money in logic because people have a lot of debt, but you would at least get a discount compared to individuals who would do it one by one. Pay their rents, pay their bills, pay their mortgages, basically pay all the debt they have, when someone has zero debt, even if you do not give them any money at all, they would probably survive. But if you give them money, they would not be even capable of paying their debt fully and would still be at zero.
I believe you made a really great point! But that can be a totally different topic for discussion. That concerns more monetary vs. fiscal policies in relation to overall economy vs. targeted stimulus. For example in USA, yes, they just handle free money to everyone and did achieve a minor economic stimulus, but in China they didn't do that (even though Chinese economy was also not in the best shape after COVID-19 lockdowns early in the year), but instead what they did - they did very targeted stimulus. For example: entertainment industry (like theatres, cinemas, etc.)? - let it go bankrupt if it has to and cannot survive on its own - not a big deal; SMEs, BioTech, new Tech, and e-commerce? - support them and give super cheap loans, and all kinds of subsidies (especially to BioTech and MedTech - it's super crazy now here about this). Was that a good or bad decision in short-term? - As we see already it was a good one. Was it a good or bad decision in long-term? - We need to wait and see. But speaking about the option of debt repayment for people I see both the good side and bad side about that though. The good side is as you mentioned - people get a huge relief and can have normal life. The bad side - 1) people will not learn from their mistakes, so once you pay off their current debt, they will get new ones, and history will repeat, 2) I as an average American, might not have issues about my debt (no matter how big it is), and would rather get free money and invest in US stocks or Bitcoin (best option  ), if I am intelligent enough, and I could pay off even greater part of my own debt. And of course from conspirologist side - I would want to keep people indebted (modern slavery), would know that I get this money back anyways (since most people just go to waste that money by buying useless things), and add some dopamine to their minds so they will spend even more than what they received. So from that perspective, just handing free money is not the best, or nicest option, but it's the most optimal for society and for the ones above (I think, but my decision is by no mean is the final or the most correct one). |
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I thought those numbers were thrown randomly then the OP cited reference of the study.
Please edit the OP along with the reference you mentioned inside the thread, because some people don't go to page 2 and just straight up reply and ask for the reference for sure.
As for the 1%, even if knowing the actual number of that in the world population, that's already a lot of people and I don't think I would count on that.
Where are they right now? Probably not here in the forum so we'll never know. Probably they're still busy looking into their charts always.
Thank you for your recommendation! No way we would just randomly throw out some random numbers Unfortunately when I tried providing direct links to the researches with URL links to the papers, my comment got deleted by the moderators, so I am not sure what's the issue with that  But if you have any advise about how to edit that and not make people managing the thread delete it, I would really appreciate that and would surely edit the initial message. And the 1% is not from the total world population actually, it's from traders who trade. If you consider number of people who actually trade - that's pretty small number (less than 0.1% of total population (I assume)). And among them very few trade persistently. And among them it's like 1.6%... so the number is in fact pretty small, but yes it's not as small as 100-1000 people in the world. But I guess you are right - those 1.6% are not here, as they are busy with doing what they do better than the rest of the world and all of us here, so all we can do is just guess, and assume. What percentage of ppl who do this full time make a yearly profit on this? Thing is when crypto is down all year like few years ago, how did any of these traders make any money is what i want to know? Because if everything keeps going up... its like well its hard to lose if you only buy/sell the top coins.
I see your point, but I think even if everything keeps going up it's still pretty possible to lose a lot of money. Many many maaany people would short @ $20k, @ $21k, ..., @ $25k and now will short again. So just imagine how many of them are in losses who will be contributing to those stats. Also don't forget the ones who do earn in the growing market, but... they don't consider their fees, or some even don't know about them spreads, network fees, deposit/withdrawal fees, interest on margin accounts, interest on leveraged positions, and taxes (if there's someone here paying those on your crypto), and many other hidden things. When consider all - numbers are not that positive as people see in their terminal screen. Trading is not easy and statistics confirm the hard truth traders afraid to accept. Everyone wants to see themselves on the winning side but the practice and trading skills are not the same for all types of traders. Long term trading is the key to be on the green side while short terms traders burn their 1000th trading account with the hope of getting a big one day. Finding the 1% profitable traders is harder than finding 99% of losers  You are absolutely correct! But just to clarify - do you mean long-term trading, like as real trading (scalping, swing, hourly, weekly, etc.) or you mean investing? Because I think once you trade covers a long-enough time-period like years, it becomes very vague if it's trading or investing. Like, maybe I invest with 1-2y horizon based on hype, news, and short-term fundamentals. At the same time, someone might be buying in January 2020, and expecting to exit h/is/er position in Jan 2022 based on ultra-long-term tech analysis. These types of people are kind of hybrid between traders (with up to 1 month trading period) and investors (who typically expect to exit position within 5-10 years). |
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Good decision by the CEO though, yes I have said before the idea is really good, might be difficult to understand specially for average joe investors but as I/others dig deeper into the product itself it really has the potential to be a good financial product.
Also the final decision to file for a patent is clever I might say, because yeah it could be abuse or misuse by others. But by having a patent, everyone should follow the rule of law here that could benefits us and the financial market in the long run.
Thank you very much for your appreciation! It is highly valuable to the CEO, and to us as the entire team!  And don't worry - we are preparing a good video explainer about the product, which should explain clearly what TVS is, how it works, and how everyone can benefit from it. Especially it will be useful to the ones who bought BTC at ATHs and still wants to benefit from upside by protecting the downside. Besides that, we will be hosting webinars in 2021 where anyone around the world will be able to speak with CEO directly and ask any questions you might have. Furthermore, apart from that, in 2021Q1 we will be launching 2 types of products: 1) something you all know about and use very frequently, but at 0 cost (literally) with us without any kind of hidden fees or something, and 2) more innovative financial products that were never offered by anyone else, yet, they are much easier to understand for people without the deep financial background. So stay tuned, and I promise you that you will be surprised Your personal support, and support of the Community and your opinions are #1 priority for all of us here at as.exchange, so if you will have any kinds of questions, recommendations or feedback, feel free to reach to us at any time! |
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After DeFi then we would might see another kind of trend which comes next to it. ICO-IEO-DeFi-  These kind of trend wouldn't really be ending yet there would be always something new that would come out. DeFi isn't dead and so as with those ICO projects that still continuing to launch almost everyday but as expected where most of these things were just completely trash and useless. This is why we should really be careful into our investment decisions. You are very right. Unfortunately, both ICO and DeFi were good ideas and new models. But for ICOs it took almost a year or so to abuse this model. Then same happened with IEOs within months. And now with DeFis in less than 3 months already nobody with IQ of at least an average person, nobody takes them seriously. I am also pretty sure there will be new models and DeFi will be the same thing as ICO is now (or it is already is?). But the majority of smart and intelligent people won't buy into that anymore. If you wanna do public fundraising - go through traditional routes such as crowdfunding, crowdinvesting, etc. via regulated platforms that have established social proof over time. And anyone doing those things ICO->IEO->DeFi->new kind of scam, will be perceived as someone trying to do another HYIP but in crypto "souse"... Yet, there are billions of people who still don't know Bitcoin and DeFi especially, and with the hype around BTC, there will be new comers for sure who will be falling in those traps. That's why we decided never to create any kind of own token, do any ico, defi or something |
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All you explained here are true, except the solution itself. No one can change the system by revolution or overnight, neither we shouldn’t wish for it at all. The humankind examined all kind of revolution and reforms in last two centuries and almost all were failed.
Your simple solution is practiced many times and as you predicted truly, it will fail. Because the participators in this movement have to “scarify something” in order to “support some believes”.
The change must be gradual and must have benefit for participants and not punishment (something like early Bitcoin adapters). That’s why I told before: we need a “game theory” in which even evils prefer to chose good option. We must put these mechanisms in practice.
We, the “possess-less” people, must create our alternate “realm” and our alternate “value system”. We do not need to be a part of this system in order to get system resources, because “WE ARE the system”. We can form our system and impact on real world.
Of course in early days no one take us serious, and actually it is a very good chance for us to survive (like Bitcoin in its first 2-3 years), because they do not try to destroy us. Meanwhile we grow and educate our population and fed and bold our “core values”.
The system in which no one can cheat and everyone prefer to act like a good actor – something like Bitcoin hash puzzle solving which everyone prefer to follow rules and find new blocks, instead of wasting energy for cheating old blocks-.
Bitcoin could make these changes in world but it failed because it based on a flawed game theory. The point of power of Bitcoin was/is Proof of Work, and simultaneously the weakest part of Bitcoin – in sense of fairness - is PoW as well, since it couldn't achieve the motto “One CPU, one vote”. Because of its design it ended up in “Who has money, can make more money”. Who has money to buy mining machine and pay for electricity can mine new coins. Who has money can buy many Bitcoins, can manipulate market, create fake waves and endless pump/dump cycles and still riches getting richer and poor getting poorer.
The idea of “decentralization” is a crucial feature of any system wishes to work “fairly”. Bitcoin has a level of decentralization which is not enough to work fairly and just. So we need an alternate “crypto-value” and its proper system (game theory, monetary system, technical architecture, etc). Why I didn’t say we need alternate political regime or alternate ideology or system of thought? Because they are not what we -ordinary people- are facing every day in our day to day life. Instead Bitcoin could be what we face every day. It is about “money” and “personal wealth” -which gives us power to fulfill our needs, whether physical or mental-.
The “money” is our credit in the current society, whereas the real credit must be something else. The solution is to make, the money works in another context. That is, the way of earning money and its indication must be re-defined.
People (including you and me) always seeking for money, because we like the independence and power of having it. This strive for money had no beginning and will have no end and we will continue it forever.
So, what about defining a new kind of money (or better named “credit”), that you need to do some “good act” in order to have eligibility to earn that money?
Some can discuss and argue about “who” and “how” recognize “good act” vs “bad act” and this is another story which has proper answer as well. In short, I can address it, by referring to “justness” and “fairness” in a “real” decentralized system. But for now just imagine we have a perfect (or almost perfect) system that can evaluate your work (what ever work you do daily) and returns a number as usefulness index. The usefulness index represents the fact that how much useful was your job for society, or even better how much useful was your job for whole glob – since we have just one earth and we have to consider the fact that “someones benefit can be someone else lost”-. The system results your 8 hour day job in this new “value system” worth X amount of money, so you earn X coins today. In this system you prefer to follow rule as possible as in order to get higher rate. We have assumed system works enough good and evaluates your job fairly. You can not cheat system in order to earn more money, so you will decide to follow rules and act like a good actor. Not only you but all other investigate the trade-off and decide to act like a good actor.
It is what we were looking for, isn’t? In this system, we will have the rich guys who helped the world more than others. s/he is proud of her/his achievement, s/he is rich and explicitly helped to improve the life of others. It is a win, win, win game. The world is winner. The money supporter community is winner, and the individual person who earned the coins is winner.
One critical question is “Can we have this -almost perfect- evaluating system?”. Since I am a practical philosopher and a technical thinker, my answer is yes. Definitely we have all the technology and tools we need for establishing this realm.
Well the gradual change is not possible I believe. It's like with cancer - you either put all forces to kill it quickly, or you wait and hope for gradual recovery while the cancer kills you slowly (by sucking up you into the system in our case). But under both conditions - with rapid change, people will fail as I described, and moreover, they will maintain old mentality, thus will just reconstruct the old system with new (hopefully at least this will change) elements. If the change is slow - it will suck people into the system, or the ones who can really resist will die over time (because single human's life is not enough to make such changes), or they will be noticed by the system-owners and be arrested or something else. But yes, you have a great idea that " we need a “game theory” in which even evils prefer to chose good option. We must put these mechanisms in practice.". I would say that is not achievable, but I do believe that anything is achievable in this world. Thus, if you or someone could make that, I guess that person would be forever in the memory of humanity and be the greatest among the greatest among the ones who changed the world (as opposed to bshit spoken in public by billionaires). Bitcoin could make these changes in world but it failed because it based on a flawed game theory. The point of power of Bitcoin was/is Proof of Work, and simultaneously the weakest part of Bitcoin – in sense of fairness - is PoW as well, since it couldn't achieve the motto “One CPU, one vote”. Because of its design it ended up in “Who has money, can make more money”. Who has money to buy mining machine and pay for electricity can mine new coins. Who has money can buy many Bitcoins, can manipulate market, create fake waves and endless pump/dump cycles and still riches getting richer and poor getting poorer.
Your point about Bitcoin is really great! That's the system that was started for the good purpose and ended up being another speculative asset played around by the "wanna be rich" and occasionally ripped off by the large BTC and/or fiat owners. Isn't that a reason to call it a tool for "fake rich" also, who use it with the hope to uplift their own social status, since we are all clear that its not used as it was designed to be used (at least among the majority)? And I think the idea of decentralization is good, but, as long as there's a living system - be it human organized system, monetary system or something else - there's going to be decreasing entropy, thus increasing centralization over time. Only as system energy declines (i.e. system dies), entropy and decentralization will increase. This is partially the reason why I wouldn't agree with you that purely new monetary tool would solve the problem. With old brains (thoughts), but new tools, people will end up gaming any system and eventually even one single individual will either find benefit to cheat the system, or entirely out of craziness (as you said there are possible tools to motivate even bad actors to act good by benefiting them) will try to revenge against the new decentralized system and fill find supporters with enough brainwashing power, thus just again - increasing centralization. And the new system with "credit" for good acts, instead of money, I believe was implemented once or twice in several places in the world (once was in some Russian village, and once elsewhere - I forgot where, but can find and share the link if you want). Though it was not entirely same with what you refer to, that was a test-society without money as we know it. However, based on conspiracy theories (I wasn't there so cannot confirm it's true or not ), but the experiment was forcibly stopped by local authorities, because it was too good and successful that it was threatening state sovereignty and pose a thread to the governors. So if that's the truth behind, I guess that tells a lot that such thing will find it very very hard to be implemented in real life, until we, as humans will abandon our common thinking, beliefs, history, norms, and systems, and by the time we do so - we probably stop to be humans as we used to be / created to be... |
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I think you misunderstood what I've said.
People who are not rich like the people you mentioned is not trying to be cool or call themselves rich in an instant, but just took a step closer to make their own fortune like what everyone of us wants. Now, those crazy rich people that are buying stock and real estate properties is just normal, I mean it is their way to be rich, some or them don't like Bitcoin and cryptocurrency that's why they stick to their own plan.
Furthermore, Bitcoin has more potential to give anyone profits in the long run, remember, buying Bitcoin is not just to look cool, but to be something more better than a guy who's not doing anything with his life.
So you mean that Bitcoin is an investment asset of just another type of group of people then? Like someone prefers "white", and someone prefers "black"? - If that's the case (please correct me if I am wrong), it can be used as a supportive argument for my statement I guess. The "old rich" can be called "real rich" in the current moment, because measurement of their wealth existed for thousands of years. Bitcoin on the contrary emerged just recently and didn't obtain time-proven track record yet. Therefore, it is partially for "fake rich" as serves for another group of people to transit to the global elites (if they permit). And in the future, yes - maybe the Bitcoiners will be considered as "cool/advanced/real rech" and fiat-ones as outdated dinosaurs. But do we believe that the deeply rooted socio-financial-technological system that has established itself over thousands of years can be that easily overthrown before the Bitcoin dies with the emergence of quantum computing? Besides, there were other points I made in other comments regarding the pros vs. cons of BTC in the established system among the established elites. Which code you're discussing?. Is it wallet id for sure ? or possibly you're thinking about the satoshi as the code.
When you purchase bitcoin, you gather some number called a satoshi, so it's not the code. It is genuine cash.
At any rate, you're rich as long as you hold your speculation.
Counterfeit rich can be considered for the individuals who put their all cash in bitcoin to begin dreaming of getting wealthy in nights.
Yet, things never happen that way. It relies upon us how we deal with our speculation to get rich.
What is Bitcoin itself then, or the Satoshis - aren't those numbers / digital codes? And I guess those whom you describe who put all savings in BTC are the worst ones they aren't even that smart as the ones who pretend to be rich to join the "elites club". What can you say? The fact is that the situation in the world has developed in such a way that values have really changed and many who would like to make a profit are now forced to change their vision and do things that previously seemed absurd. But what's next for us? As for finance, I believe that sooner or later the dollar will lose value and because of this, many may suffer. Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies have given us the opportunity to improve our financial position and BTC may well be a new asset in the market on a par with gold. Here I want to note that BTC in this case represents both blockchain technology and digital assets themselves, which is value. In any case, changes await us and I hope that for the better.
Great words, but humanity had shown itself pretty well over the past decades and history... people never change, but tend to get worse. Therefore, as we say "hope for the best, prepare for the worst" I discover it not so clear in case you're abhorring the btc clients or as it were the fake wealthy individuals since you said that btc will gotten to be futile once the time will come that there will be no web and electricity but didn’t you knew that not all that who utilize btc are bragging that they wealthy . There are destitute clients that are humble and will be humble no matter how much they pick up from the btc they have and there are moreover wealthy individuals that are contributing in btc and on the off chance that these individuals brag will you still discover that hostile.
You are correct, however, what is the percentage of those people you describe?.. There are few people around the world who know about Bitcoin. Even less people actually understand it. Even less people understand the technology and philosophy behind. And even less are "in" not for the sake of quick profits. From my experience, I would say you are mentioning exceptions, who do exist, but are very rare overall. |
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The remaining 1% of traders that really make hell of money from trading are rich whales who can easily manipulates the market to make their own gains, they hardly end up in losses, their huge funds or assets is their true power
Nah, not always. You can check the story of LTCM ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Term_Capital_Management), Lehman Brothers ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehman_Brothers), and there are others as well - they were the whales of the whales. While also you can check Takashi Kotegawa ( https://www.worldtopinvestors.com/takashi-kotegawa-investor-profile/). So whales are not the smartest people in the world We all have chance. Speaking of opportunity cost, i will spend more time on the safe bonds which will yield 3% in less than one hour and this is the reason why i don't spend much time on trading in the first place.
Was is it worth that?
I guess you are right but i just dont see it as something nice because they usually dont talk about the moment of profit making but their loss.
Well there are different kinds of bonds though, there are high-yields, junk bonds (some people made fortunes trading those), and other fixed-income products (but most of them are not accessible to common retail traders actually, that's why few times I mentioned that I think those 1% might have access to something what common people cannot access?). I'm sure there are both kinds of people - someone who will be showing off with their profit making ability and saying they are so smart, and others who will be talking about their losses and saying it's just this only time they got unfortunate. But I think there will be more people showing off their profits though. Exactly and I agree with you.
I guess they are those traders who earn a profit using their huger capital to gain continuously in the market. Manipulating the price isn't easy I guess, but if you are one of those whales that has a huge capital, maybe you can.
Another factor that possible to consider as a remaining 1% of traders is those who are experts in trading and building up their fund just to survive in trading and gain profit. But who are they? That question we did not know because as far as I know, most traders are newbies lurking and seeking money on the internet.
You forgot to add "most traders are newbies lurking and seeking money on the internet, and end up selling trading courses or VIP signals and using that profit claim they are pro-traders and reinforce the cycle" not at all, we can say that those 1% are those people who are not afraid to take step in the game , they are not afraid to take risk and willing to lose in order for them to gain in the future, even we are not whales , still we can have that opportunity and use that to grow our asset.
Great point! And the people like Takashi Kotegawa (there are others also) are great example of that. Start at the level same or lower than most people in this Community, and end up being an individual trading more than a lot of funds in the world. Yes. Remaining lowkey would be the best thing while watching everyone who's also happy with them.
Yes, and not necessarily happy with them. "Big brother is watching" - so can also be a reason for them to stay lowkey given the fact how much most of us love to pay taxes from crypto Good luck with that plan. That's a good initiative if you have plans for that. I'm actually not a good educator so basically, you can start with it and sharing ideas with us about that topic.
It is for sure that when a topic like that comes out, there will be people who will be eyeing it. As the usual quote about money talks, they're there to listen.
Thank you for that! You will be among the first ones whom we gonna invite for those courses/lessons/videos when we make them available It's at our core to help all people around the world to have the same opportunity and knowledge in the advanced financial areas as the common "financial elites", because when more people know about it - we are more equal and have same chances to benefit from it (no, we are not communists though to make everyone equal ). |
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Again, with the above I don't mean project/company-based channels and groups (such as Binance, FTX, etc.) as those usually by default are very targeted if they do have real members. I mean general/news/topic-based/analytical/etc. channels and groups.
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that number is almost accurate lol  I think you know better about this. I would love to know/discuss what aspect that you consider as a good point that enough to make you advertise on those telegram groups. or do you use any tools to help your research about targeted telegram group? or do you have a list of good telegram groups? wait, you supposed to be the one who gets the answers. I am sorry. Haha, yeah that number is pretty accurate Well, I have been using TG for over 6-7 years by now, and have seen very different sides of it from all types of content and groups that can be possibly imagined, so yes I do know what I am talking about. And after all these years, there's 0 ENG-based groups that I would consider "high quality + original content + throughout analysis". In RUS language there are couple of them... very few, but still can find them. But in ENG it's quite disappointing. As for research tools there aren't that many actually, but here are few good tips on how to see a good vs. bad group/channel: 1. check the statistics of the channel here: https://tgstat.com/ (there are other tools too, but they mostly do same thing with nearly same accuracy) 2. if it shows a red mark that group uses unethical marketing - you can skip that channel (it means too many bots there) 3. if you passed 2., you can see the number of post views if it's spiking anywhere or shows irregular behaviours which would mean either actual marketing activity, or purchases of fake views and "members" 4. you check the long-term trend and you can observe either a natural growth, either those spikes I mentioned earlier 5. most reliable channels will have also groups where you can see activity of the users (don't know yet if they are real though) 6. if there's no group supporting the channel - skip it, as they don't want to show low real userbase 7. check the engagement rate (also can see on that website I shared), but be careful as this can be faked too (if admin of the channel is smart enough) 8. check where the channel was mentioned before - if it was mentioned in high quality channels / groups - it was either paid marketing, or the content was really great that someone referred to them; but be careful as most of the times channel owners maintain multiple other related channels to scam more people on ads and to do cross-marketing (so you need to check those in the same way you were checking this one in steps 1-8. 9. if the channel had good real marketing, has a group for the followers, had a natural growth in followers, has a good engagement rate, there's a good chance you found something not too bad already 10. finally check the activity of the group - it's the best indicator after all (yes it can be faked too - there's a software to fake this via bots that can be customized in bulk to make it look like real users, but few admins know about this), if the group is really talking about something meaningful, has a "family" / "friendly" environment among members where people know each other (at least some), respect the admin and closely follow channel updates and discussions - here you go - you probably found either a good channel with a group, or very smart scamy admin From my experience, 90% of channels will be filtered out before step 10, and the last 9.9999999999999999...9% will be filtered out on step 10 exactly where sometimes you will see group members discussing some bshit, or talking nonsence, or posting spamy content / links / images (I earned XXXXXX $$$ thank you admin, my lord etc ), and with ENG - probably none will be left. Not sure about other languages though. |
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Good point cause 80% of all the newly created are hype base and this is the expanse where every crypto traders need to have knowledge not only to read the chart/candle but also have the awareness of the perfect investment in the which is not hype base.
I don't trade often cause i don't like spending much time on trading but i surprised some traders usually complain they only make losses whereas in the knowledge they lack.
True, and I forgot to mention such thing as "opportunity cost" like - okay you earned your 5% in active trading by spending 12 hours/day, but you could earn 3% (for example) with some safe bonds and with 0hrs. spent of your efforts. Was it really worth that? And yes, sometimes get overconfident just because they get lucky for a specific period of time and they think it's their skill... and when the reality shows them that they know nothing about trading, they say they just got unlucky I Don't understand what do you mean in 1%. Many trader brake in crypto market but many Newbie join for trading. Trading is risky way but many people make huge profits.
The fact that you mention that many people leave and come-in just prove some of the points listed - that most of the people are not even able to stay for a long enough time. But those 1% are the ones who do stay in the trading for many many years. |
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What a load of BS? So you are saying that if you can't use an asset for purchasing groceries, or to pay student loan, you will not consider it as a real asset? Let me ask you when was the last time you used gold for these purposes. According to your definition, all those who are holding considerable amounts of gold are not "real rich" and their wealth is all fake. I can't agree with that definition.
You really think you can't use gold for that? you can definitely try, and then you can come back here to post video as a proof of what happened (if you survive after you show you got real gold ) |
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For what I did when I do trade in different platform exchange is that I applied Technical analysis, watching the resistance from time to time,
and sometimes hold or day trade. Aside from this methods, I looked up also in the volume and for the buy support. Due to in this way I could have a chance to earn in the future, just be patient only.
May I know please for how long you have been trading like that, and how much you earned net of spreads, trading fees, inflation, etc.? And even better if you could share Sharpe Ratio, Beta, Treynor, alpha, stdev, max drawdown, return range, median, etc. - then we could see how profitable that actually was |
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I think DeFi was like dead-born child of ICOs packaged in a new fancy and attractive pink box. Yes, it surely benefited some, yes it surely will benefit some people to come in the future, but this technology got abused even faster than ICOs at a time, therefore, there's gonna be super limited adoption from mainstream and it will continue to live on its own as some people still in 2020 are trying to do ICOs/IEOs/TGEs/and those kinds of things.
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I would have loved to continue the discussion on Tesla if you weren't comparing apples with oranges. You gave a list of ICE cars comparing them with Tesla. "Green" is not a trend but a necessity for a sustainable future and for the future generations to not face climate disasters. We are just doing our part.
The time when Bitcoin was revolutionary on an individual basis has long gone. Now is the time for slow and steady adoption and establishment of products on top of Bitcoin. Unfortunately, most of the work and focus is on financial derivative products on top of Bitcoin. Bitcoin itself has become a trader's darling for those who wish to day-trade crypto. This doesn't really feel anything like the revolution it was supposed to be. Yet, hope is alive that it will still make a difference.
I do know about the difference between ICEs vs EVs cars, but still from consumer side as an end-user, people will compare features, prices and ultimately ROI for their purchase, and Tesla by no mean had superior ROI from consumer perspective. As for "Green", and Bitcoin, I think that's the issue with both of them. They both started for the good purpose (I hope, as I cannot be speaking for real motivation of those who did ), but both ended up being abused. So now both the " Green" is not that " Green" anymore, and Bitcoin is not what is was supposed to be. Defending derivatives (since we are in that space ), they actually same with hammer - can be used for good, or for bad. Derivatives are commonly lead to greater market efficiency, to greater asset sensitivity to all changes, allow for different types of trades which were not possible before, and ultimately can be leading the underlying asset price formation (as opposed to inefficient markets where asset leads the price of derivatives). But it's another topic, so I think we shouldn't continue on that here |
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If BTC is for "Fake rich" then it could not prosper till now. So how can BTC reach this position? There is indeed some speculation but it's not all over. In this platform, some people are not honest and some are always trying to make a profit illegally but the maximum of the users are real from usage. All over the fact is people should have to know it well how to use it.
May I know please when was the last time you went to buy groceries or new phone with Bitcoin? Or maybe to repay mortgage or student debt with Bitcoin? Or to purchase or do some M&A deals using Bitcoin? Or even see US GAAP or IFRS to issue standards to keep accounting in BTC? Until this and many many other things happen, BTC is hard to be called a measure of "real rich" unless those with fiat or real assets and means of "old" capital. |
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I will even say more that all these super-rich people from the top ten richest people on the planet do not keep all their funds in the form of Fiat cash or in Bank deposits, but keep the bulk of their capital in the form of shares or shares in their business. Recently, the mass media slipped information about Elon Musk who does not have his own money and he constantly borrows it from others for living and food, so all this talk about fake wealth is both true and false.
That's a great point! From such perspective both the top50-500 in Forbes can be considered as "fake rich", but what differentiates them from other common people is that they know how to manage leverage for own benefit, while the average person falls into the debt trap and rarely succeeds to get out of it by getting addicted to the "cheap money needle". But actually, there's a theory (not sure how true that is) that the really powerful ones and elites who control most of the assets and money are not even in Forbes, or at least not the tops ones there. But it will exist? As long as there are bitcoin nodes running and preserving the ledger, your assets will completely safe.
And do you think that it is plausible that the internet will just disappear for an extended period of time while billions of people have already come to rely on it, and hundreds of millions make a living off of it? Please.
I'm still confused as what exactly you mean by the "fake rich". Are the Winklevoss twins a part of the "fake rich" because they weren't as elite before BTC rallied? No, they are still two very high net worth individuals.
And even old wealth is flocking towards BTC right now, just look at the amount of institutional demand.
Well yes it can exist (or not - depending on severity of the assumed scenario), but in such case why would people need Bitcoin in that world? As for Winklevoss twins, well it depends on their asset composition. If they hold most of assets in crypto, I wouldn't consider them that rich. One day things might turn out to be in such case that state would completely ban non-state-backed cryptos (yes, another post-apocalyptic scenario, but we saw that in China for example already), and what will happen to their wealth? What if states around the globe coordinate to fight against uncontrolled money supply and take expropriate all BTC from people? - This is not that impossible as it happened with gold before. At that time all fiat-based elites ones will remain where they were, all asset-ones also, all crypto-based elites will vanish... As for old wealth flocking in BTC, - well yes and no. Yes - it is happening, no - we don't know the reasons for that, and the history showed that they do take opportunities to speculate on hypes (and even Goldman Sachs did before), thus we can't really call it that "old money is flooding to crypto", at least not yet. However, the poor (not literally poor) ones want to show off, want to get hot girls, want to get attention from rich guys, want to show they also belong to the elite class. So what they can do? – They pretend to be rich / from higher social class.
As the others mentioned before, they are not Bitcoin's problem. Indeed Bitcoin emerged for realizing “Financial sovereignty”. Although nowadays it looks like it failed on its mission, but this is another story for another day.
I want address the “fake” rich problem by a philosophical point of view.
In ancient Greece civilization there were two kind of people, freemen and slaves. Whereas slaves have to be involved in the painful labor and life to satisfy their masters needs and their bodily needs, the free men have time to do the “heroic action”. The action by which excellence produces beautiful deeds. One could distinguish oneself from others, because of what “action” he did and not because of what he has in possession.
The “heroic action” is what we are missed in our civilization -since we are modern slaves-. So we pretend to be freeman by possession and not by doing “action”.
We have to act, particularly “heroic action”.
Yes, in the modern world there is little room for feats and beautiful deeds.
Man creates new smartphones and computers. However, don't computers and smartphones change the mind and psyche of people?
People can learn by imitating more successful people by adopting certain behaviors from them. However, modern people do not admire other people, but new iPhones. And they don't learn from humans, but from computers. As a result, humans themselves become androids. Information and information flows are the most important thing in the modern world.
There is no place for feats and beauty in the modern world.
I cannot disagree with you guys. In the modern world, you either " eat, or be eaten". And us, learning from computers, phones, books are de facto controlled by the ones who produce those and feed their ideas into those computers, books and phones. And your social circle of mostly less intelligent people (since most of us (but not all) will think we are the smartest in our own group), will be fed by others other ideas which will circulate in this social circle thus reinforcing those ideas which were injected by others. This creates a closed loop which is hard to escape from. As for Bitcoin - yes, it wasn't created as a mean to be "fake rich". But to make simple analogy what I mean is: Bitcoin is a hammer, you can use it to build your own house (real wealth), or you can keep it and collect other hammers. But the real wealth is in the hands of the ones who control that hammer and the means to produce it (iron and wood if you wish) and can take it away from you any moment, or ban you from using it. Those controlling means of production (hammer and wood) controlled it for thousands of years and didn't change. It's just now they allow you to use it, and smart ones will use hammer to build houses, sell them and transit to owners of hammer and wood. The ones who keep collecting hammers will be out of the game when the music stops playing. This is what I meant as "fake rich" There is no place for feats and beauty in the modern world.
Right now, it looks like true, but there are solutions too.
What we need is a new paradigm, in which people are respectable, because of their believes and their “acts” of making life easier for others, we need a “practical altruism”. Something beyond just pure morality. A game theory in which everyone has to do the right act in order to make benefit themselves. A system in which even evil can not do bad things. Of course bad doers always can do the bad but the cost of bad must be far higher than doing good. Right now “we have” the necessities for this system and game theory and “we have to” do that as well.
Only in this system can we can hope survive the humankind, whereas in modern history and modern governments (less than 200 years comparing all our thousands years of history) we ruined most of our natural resources and environment and humanity.
The problem is, if right now, one of the evils (supposing a few evils are governing the world) dreamed to stop bad doing and start to good doing, immediately the other bad doers swallow him. As a result, the world is a place of constant conflict and fight between the forces of evil and worst evils.
We -slaves- have no place in this fight. In fact we are the material and victims of this war. We are supporter of this wrong pillar of economy and culture, when we buy their products. we reproducing this social order when we “show off” our possessions, and finally we remain slave and force our child be slave as well if we do not “acting”. The act by which we will create our new political organization.
I am not a dreamer, and I am pretty sure we have all the tools we need, in order to achieve human prosperity.
You depict the current system pretty well, but I personally really don't see it changing. Even Bitcoin was created for good of people, but it ended up where we are now. And as the time goes - it will get only worse. I wish and really hope you to be correct that we do have all the tools and what is needed to change the system and achieve human prosperity, but I don't think it is the case now... It could be a simple solution for example - arrange a day X around the globe and raise and awaken to fight the old slave-owners, but this is what is likely to happen. Imagine we crate a simple sign-up and watch time website. People will sign-up for sure. There will be people thinking it's fake and will forget about this. There will be people thinking that "oh, my pizza delivery on that day is more important", "oh, I didn't finish my work assignment, so f*ck the Day X", "I have a date with a pretty girl, - definitely more important than some freaks doing some day x". In the end, for sure there will be some people who will try to raise and fight, but they all will get arrested, and some of them will try to cooperate with the police to get some materialistic benefits by turning in their friends whom they know actually went to "fight". And all this will end pretty quickly... It's an poisoned cycle - to change a system, you need resources, to get resources, you need to become part of system, and by the time you become part of it, you enjoy those resources so much that you don't wanna change anything, because you know well that if you do anything - your resources and nice lifestyle and safety will be taken away from you... P.S. really love to see all you guys sharing such deep ideas and thoughts on this topic. Really didn't expect that it will attract such smart people! |
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Based on the discussion above I wonder how do you think guys: 1) Aren't there any of those 1.6% of top traders here on BitcoinTalk? Since I assumed they also would be replying and sharing their thoughts, but for now as we all see it's mostly assumptions of the rest - 98.4% of traders For sure they are here, they could be at any rank of account but if they choose not to join the discussion. They want to remain silent and lowkey. Good point, probably "big money loves silence"? 2) How do you think, could that success be partially explained by the use of those traders of derivatives? Since it's known that derivatives do create significant returns at less risk, but the problem is that the majority of people even don't understand those derivatives, structured products, etc., so among the ones who do understand, a small group can benefit from that. Do you think this could be a reason?
Probably it's because many are still not aware and lack knowledge about derivatives. And if there's someone who knows it, he won't share it unless someone asks for it. I see your point. Probably you are correct about this also. Then we could be the ones helping "the average Joe" to get the skills which is typically possessed by the financial elites. Might be good point for ads for us next year (not self-promotion) |
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Same goes for me on where majority of people i've known do really ask me out about crypto or bitcoin generally on how i do make easy money with it without even thinking
that these things do came from all hard work.
I did rather give them some site on telling the basics and pointing out that this isnt an easy money scheme that you can get rich overnight.
Im always reminding them about the risk of losing money instead on making some gains.Managing risk is important because if you dont consider this then
expect for unfortunate things to happen.
Really happy to see such people! That indeed shows that there are some people left on this planet who are not crazy greedy and try to rip off everyone around. I guess this gives a hope that at least some of the Community Members are indeed good people, as opposed to the "get rich and cheat everyone around"-to the core in traditional finance and currently DeFi/ex-ICO. |
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It’s so easy to increase the number of telegram group nowadays. The admin usually used cctip or bot to make their group/channel looks big. Before you try their service, better to ask their group insight and stats first. IMO, AMA is the most profitable thing for bounty/airdrop abusers now. 3 points that should be known about this kind of activity: 1. Scam project would never care about the quality of the group, only numbers matter. 2. The admin will get paid expensively. 3. They will pick fake members who have the best question during AMA to get more money. Usually best question will be rewarded by the project. I joined several telegram group from several crypto projects. I saw those kind of people everyday, asking if they can send the team an AMA proposal Yes, you are correct. But you are a little wrong about the pricing - to increase number of TG group is super cheap. Also there are spam services, which are also cheap. This will ultimately fake all numbers, including post views, etc. and lure users into it. And then the admins would message projects for marketing in their group/channel. That's the typical business model which 99.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999% of groups follow. Yes the number is that bad |
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Guys, whoever recommends here some signal/alert/etc. groups and even writes names or numbers, I can assure you - they are all scams!
So to save time of other members, don't check any. There's no single legit group on this planet that does that and actually benefits someone! Irrespective of the subject - crypto, stocks, FOREX, or something else - this thing DOES NOT EXIST in the world. So if one of the readers falls into one of those traps or scams, well, - it's natural selection. You have been warned!
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