Is Bitcoin for “Fake Rich”?

[teosanru]

What is wealth?  

The landowners were rich.  The land was real wealth.  Also, wealth is slaves.  Slaves cultivate the land, and landowners get rich.

Then loan capital appeared.  Gold has become valuable.  Derivatives for gold, such as promissory notes, emerged.  The bill is very handy if you are traveling.  

The financial elite gradually began to dominate the landlords.  Then industrial capital arose.  The capitalists began to compete with the financiers.  There were stocks, bonds ... Slavery was abolished.  The landlords finally lost power.  

In the XXI century, IT technologies have developed.  The problem arose of the redistribution of wealth from capitalists and financiers to IT specialists.  One of the instruments for this redistribution of wealth is Bitcoin.  

Many IT pros in the 21st century have become millionaires thanks to bitcoin.

Actually if you see all the assets that you have mentioned were tangibles. Even a stock is tangible as indirectly there are the net assets that you get of the company working to appreciate it's price. Derivatives derive their price from these stocks and bonds only. But Bitcoin has no physical asset below it. The antminers or hardwares mining Bitcoin cannot be said to be bitcoin's infrastructure. Therefore to be honest it is merely a line of code. But yes coming to fiat too it's also a sentence promised by the government. So yes it's difficult to draw a direct comparison between both the things. But this does not makes you fake rich. As long as the line of code can be sold in the market at price this high you have no problems at all and same is the case with the fiat money. And if you are so naive to say that governments can fall easily and make your fiat useless there are equal chances of bitcoin pricing falling down to $1000 again.

[1715460370]

1715460370

[1715460370]

1715460370

[1715460370]

1715460370

[1715460370]

1715460370

[Vishnu.Reang]

What a load of BS from the OP? Iphone and Tesla cost more, because they offer the best quality. Instead of an iPhone, you can always go for a phone with similar specs from Xiaomi, which will cost around 80% less than the Apple product. But it won't give you the same quality as that of iPhone. Also, you can go for Nissan Leaf instead of Tesla Model 3. But again, it won't give you the same range or battery life. So these products are not overpriced. Rather, they are fairly priced and people are ready to buy them at these prices. Same is the case with BTC as well.

[Smartprofit]

What is wealth?  

The landowners were rich.  The land was real wealth.  Also, wealth is slaves.  Slaves cultivate the land, and landowners get rich.  

Then loan capital appeared.  Gold has become valuable.  Derivatives for gold, such as promissory notes, emerged.  The bill is very handy if you are traveling.

You made great points! I tend to agree to the most part, however, I believe with the emergence of financial elite, the history might not have been exactly as you described. Even the largest industrialists were financed by banks and investors (i.e. financial elite). Even during the WWII war, Hitler was financed by elites. With tech millionaires, same - they obtain capital from VCs who in turn have LPs in the form of banks, insurance companies, large funds, etc. - thus also, either directly or indirectly financed by elites. You cut their cheap capital flow and they all will die together with their "unicorns". And that's just the surface fin elites, and we didn't even discuss the Fed, BIS, IMF, WB, SWIFT, and those supranational ones who exist above and beyond the state's reach.

Yes, everything I've written is a simplified version of what's really going on. 

For example, most modern landowners in Great Britain are families with lineages dating back to the time of William the Conqueror.  This is a testament to how slowly the change of elites in the world is. 

Landowners, financiers and industrialists rule the world at the same time.  They interact very closely with each other. 

Nevertheless, each stage of technological development gives new people a chance to become members of the global elite. 

Early Bitcoin holders also have this chance.

[Josefjix]

This post is sponsored by an anti-Bitcoin evangelist who thinks bringing in pseudoscience crap would bite off a true Bitcoiner... there are instances given in too many journals by different scholars around the world about the possibility of the internet being shut down which is close not happening.. The Europeans are investing heavily in the stability of cellular network globally, if there are some imaginary apocalyptic humans to dominate the universe by shutting the technological advancement  consider it void already.. 

Imagine how you could use bitcoin easily by just accessing an internet available device, no third party approval unlike the centralised banking system which is even more targeted by such destroyers... 

[iamsheikhadil]

I disagree with you completely.

iPhones, Tesla might be overpriced "products" which the middle class might buy just to feel that he will be "rich" but bitcoin isn't a product, it's a currency itself.

There might come a time when something unnatural might happen causing no phone, internet and electricity but I don't see that coming for the next couple of centuries!

When that time comes, all bitcoin will have been mined long before that. And probably, human species will also go extinct. So who cares when that happens, everything will be destroyed let alone fiat or Bitcoin!

[NavI_027]

iPhones, Tesla might be overpriced "products" which the middle class might buy just to feel that he will be "rich" but bitcoin isn't a product, it's a currency itself.

Indeed, sometimes people having an Iphone or things with signature brands like Gucci etc. etc. is just a product of social media pressure. Some people tend to push themselves going on what's hot despite of inability to sustain such things — being social climber at its finest.

But in the case of bitcoin, you are not considered social climber when you have one simply because you are investing. Imagine, you can be a trader even having a small capital only. Nice, isn't it? Thus, Financial Literate is a much better term for you .

There might come a time when something unnatural might happen causing no phone, internet and electricity but I don't see that coming for the next couple of centuries!

That's right lol. Mankind is not that dumb anymore. We can fix it. The only problem with us is that we are doing damage on this planet even though we are aware of it so I hope we will realize in the future what we done wrong before its too late.

[bits4books]

There is indeed some truth in this because as everyone understands (even if they deny it on the surface, but inside they know for sure that this is so) that without relying on the same "fiat money", any cryptocurrency is just useless numbers that cost less than nothing.
everyone wants wealth in fiat money - dollars, euros - from cryptocurrencies, but they do not want to use cryptocurrencies as a measure of price in itself. no one wants to go to a restaurant and pay a conditional 0.2eth for dinner - they want to go to a restaurant and pay $ 100 for dinner, but through eth conversion.
People themselves have come up with a gasket between themselves and fiat money and believe that this is the real future and independence - but they do not want to understand that such actions simply kill what the cryptocurrency really is. and at the same time, they do not forget to say and write everywhere that fiat money is evil, that banks are evil, that the state that prints money is also evil.
And it's both very funny and very sad. Tragicomedy as it is.

Wow! I have nothing to add to your point. Very deep, very correct and very to the point. Nobody ever will say that Bill Gates is #2-3 in Forbes because he got 1,000,000 Bitcoins, but only because he got X billions of Dollars. So nobody will say Apple is finally 10,500,000 Bitcoins worth company (for example), but only "it's finally a Trillion Dollars company". That's the end of story where the true power is, despite USD being inflated, overprinted, etc. - when the time comes, the "elites" will replace it with something they need (even if it's Bitcoin), but not anything not that - is not for "real rich", but probably for "fake rich" to play around until the time permits.

But still - you can not call BTC "fake wealth". It's like calling an Apple stockholder a beggar just because he's holding Apple stock instead of dollars.
The state in which the cryptocurrency now is the same shares of Apple or IBM just in a different form.
But at the same time, when switching to the" natural "value of the cryptocurrency, it will also not be called" fake wealth " because it will already be a full - fledged means of payment. Quite a subtle and slippery question, in general.

[as.exchange]

Actually if you see all the assets that you have mentioned were tangibles. Even a stock is tangible as indirectly there are the net assets that you get of the company working to appreciate it's price. Derivatives derive their price from these stocks and bonds only. But Bitcoin has no physical asset below it. The antminers or hardwares mining Bitcoin cannot be said to be bitcoin's infrastructure. Therefore to be honest it is merely a line of code. But yes coming to fiat too it's also a sentence promised by the government. So yes it's difficult to draw a direct comparison between both the things. But this does not makes you fake rich. As long as the line of code can be sold in the market at price this high you have no problems at all and same is the case with the fiat money. And if you are so naive to say that governments can fall easily and make your fiat useless there are equal chances of bitcoin pricing falling down to $1000 again.

I think great point! In such manner, we might come to a point when air would be also sold and traded, just like the "line of code" (Bitcoin) is traded now. World changes, and assets might also change. Yet, some of them survived wars, revolutions, government falldowns, epidemics, etc. for thousands of years, while some just emerged in the past 10 years, and we already all know will not exist after the next 10-50 years once quantum computers become a daily reality of every common person.

What a load of BS from the OP? Iphone and Tesla cost more, because they offer the best quality. Instead of an iPhone, you can always go for a phone with similar specs from Xiaomi, which will cost around 80% less than the Apple product. But it won't give you the same quality as that of iPhone. Also, you can go for Nissan Leaf instead of Tesla Model 3. But again, it won't give you the same range or battery life. So these products are not overpriced. Rather, they are fairly priced and people are ready to buy them at these prices. Same is the case with BTC as well.

Do you really believe ipone and tesla offer the best quality Think again ...

Yes, everything I've written is a simplified version of what's really going on. 

For example, most modern landowners in Great Britain are families with lineages dating back to the time of William the Conqueror.  This is a testament to how slowly the change of elites in the world is. 

Landowners, financiers and industrialists rule the world at the same time.  They interact very closely with each other. 

Nevertheless, each stage of technological development gives new people a chance to become members of the global elite. 

Early Bitcoin holders also have this chance.

You purposely right in a way to make me agree with all your points? Because I agree with this as well. And yes, early BTC holders also have a chance to become the next elites deeply rooted in the global economy, but... that depends on 1) whether they are capable enough to rally make that transmission - from "tech freaks trading hype-priced lines of codes" to "financial elites affecting global politics and economy", and 2) whether the old elites permit them to do so... recently SEC and other institutionalised watchdogs had shown an increasing efficiency in taking down those "ex-crypto - to-be elites millionaire". And the case with Ant Group in China showed that the financial elites won't give up their spots so easily even to "traditional / non-crypto" tech oligarchs.

This post is sponsored by an anti-Bitcoin evangelist who thinks bringing in pseudoscience crap would bite off a true Bitcoiner... there are instances given in too many journals by different scholars around the world about the possibility of the internet being shut down which is close not happening.. The Europeans are investing heavily in the stability of cellular network globally, if there are some imaginary apocalyptic humans to dominate the universe by shutting the technological advancement  consider it void already.. 

Imagine how you could use bitcoin easily by just accessing an internet available device, no third party approval unlike the centralised banking system which is even more targeted by such destroyers... 

Could you please point out specifically who would sponsor such post, and we would get in touch with them directly? And I believe you either didn't read the post and all comments well, or you "see the words, but don't get the meaning" thats why you are making such accusations.

I disagree with you completely.

iPhones, Tesla might be overpriced "products" which the middle class might buy just to feel that he will be "rich" but bitcoin isn't a product, it's a currency itself.

There might come a time when something unnatural might happen causing no phone, internet and electricity but I don't see that coming for the next couple of centuries!

When that time comes, all bitcoin will have been mined long before that. And probably, human species will also go extinct. So who cares when that happens, everything will be destroyed let alone fiat or Bitcoin!

Yes, your last sentence is exactly to the point! However, don't forget the tech side of BTC and the fact that once quantum computers become a part of regular daily life - yours, mine and anyone's BTC will be useless peace of code, as it was in the first few days when it was created. But fiat, will remain... gold will remain... factories will remain... land will remain.

Why consider scenarios like this? Obviously, for the normal functioning of some things in the world, a certain level of comfort and development is required. For example, in the event of a war, the development of a person stops, I am talking about the development of personality first of all. Thus, both bitcoin and the dollar need certain conditions in which they will exist. If these conditions are changed, as you propose, it is obvious that things existing in this environment will change.

Loved your comment! Very great point which wasn't mentioned by anyone before. For anything - fiat, gold, iPhone, Tesla, watches, Bitcoin - whatever, - appropriate conditions must exist in order to function as they should and in order to be of any value. But over time, the environments have changed many times, and conditions too - some assets, or "things" remained unchanged for thousands of years. Others came, became popular, attracted attention and just to make some people earn a lot of money on the expense of late-comers. Of course, I am not claiming BTC is one of them for sure, but yet it could be... only time will show and we can get back to this post after 50-100 years to see what happened and how changed

But in the case of bitcoin, you are not considered social climber when you have one simply because you are investing. Imagine, you can be a trader even having a small capital only. Nice, isn't it? Thus, Financial Literate is a much better term for you .

Aren't you? You should try telling your old friends whom you didn't see for a long time, or who are super far from BTC/crypto/tech/finance that you are BTC-holder since 20XX and you will see the difference. BTC might have not been created for that purpose (or it was - idk; just don't tend to easily believe to what is written or spoken by some people), but as you can see in 2018 and now in the end of 2020, it is happening.

But still - you can not call BTC "fake wealth". It's like calling an Apple stockholder a beggar just because he's holding Apple stock instead of dollars.
The state in which the cryptocurrency now is the same shares of Apple or IBM just in a different form.
But at the same time, when switching to the" natural "value of the cryptocurrency, it will also not be called" fake wealth " because it will already be a full - fledged means of payment. Quite a subtle and slippery question, in general.

Great point! But Apple's shareholders they don't own a share of iPhone and don't call themselves "iPhone evangelists" (imagine if they would ). They own a company with real production facilities, with real brand (yes Bitcoin is establishing its brand now with the help of community), if something goes wrong - they can get all Apple's assets and infrastructure and liquidate it via bankruptcy procedures and get cash, but when you will be able to hold a quantum-powered phone in your pocket, like any other person having iPhone now, whom we all can go to sue and ask for asset liquidation and repayments?.. Furthermore, as a regular BTC-holder you barely know how you can individually affect the network or make any change, but if you are a minority shareholder of Apple - you can do quite a lot of things actually. But yes, depending on personal beliefs, philosophy, pre-set of norms we follow, and willingness to expand or direct own thinking towards specific ideas, such question as the one posted here is a very slippery question.

[iamsheikhadil]

How's quantum computer can actually destroy Bitcoin or blockchain lmao? They are vastly two different products. One is a public ledger, and other is technology. Even though, what you are saying makes little sense, but you are referring to a future which is many many decades after of. So, it doesn't matter at all with respect to today. If needed, Bitcoin will also get replaced by something better in future.

Also, aren't you being contradictory when you say that there will be a calamity when all internet and phones and everything will be destroyed, but at the same time land, fiat will remain still? Lmao. When internet, phones and everything gets destroyed, so gets destroyed land, money and even human species.

[teosanru]

Actually if you see all the assets that you have mentioned were tangibles. Even a stock is tangible as indirectly there are the net assets that you get of the company working to appreciate it's price. Derivatives derive their price from these stocks and bonds only. But Bitcoin has no physical asset below it. The antminers or hardwares mining Bitcoin cannot be said to be bitcoin's infrastructure. Therefore to be honest it is merely a line of code. But yes coming to fiat too it's also a sentence promised by the government. So yes it's difficult to draw a direct comparison between both the things. But this does not makes you fake rich. As long as the line of code can be sold in the market at price this high you have no problems at all and same is the case with the fiat money. And if you are so naive to say that governments can fall easily and make your fiat useless there are equal chances of bitcoin pricing falling down to $1000 again.

I think great point! In such manner, we might come to a point when air would be also sold and traded, just like the "line of code" (Bitcoin) is traded now. World changes, and assets might also change. Yet, some of them survived wars, revolutions, government falldowns, epidemics, etc. for thousands of years, while some just emerged in the past 10 years, and we already all know will not exist after the next 10-50 years once quantum computers become a daily reality of every common person.


~Snip~

You actually are absolutely right. I don't know if that was sarcasm or what but I feel air and water might also get listed soon on Commodities exchanges if the scarcity of both so remains and increases. I Mean if you see the commodities exchange something very basic which started like a utility like power too is being traded on exchanges so what's the problem with air and water? Once we reach a time where you have to pay for it you might see Air and water derivatives getting listed on exchanges for sure. But yes talking about Bitcoin obviously you are right that we might see quantum computers which could end bitcoin but are you going to hold your cryptos for so long? I mean let's be pretty honest. No one plans to hold it for the next 30-40 years what I am trying to say is that if something has value and demand which is likely to sustain until next 5-7 years there is no harm in speculating on such a thing for time less than that.

[as.exchange]

How's quantum computer can actually destroy Bitcoin or blockchain lmao? They are vastly two different products. One is a public ledger, and other is technology. Even though, what you are saying makes little sense, but you are referring to a future which is many many decades after of. So, it doesn't matter at all with respect to today. If needed, Bitcoin will also get replaced by something better in future.

Also, aren't you being contradictory when you say that there will be a calamity when all internet and phones and everything will be destroyed, but at the same time land, fiat will remain still? Lmao. When internet, phones and everything gets destroyed, so gets destroyed land, money and even human species.

"How's quantum computer can actually destroy Bitcoin or blockchain lmao?" - Seriously?.. I assume you having a Full Member rank here do understand how DLT works, and what are the potential effects of new type of computing, such as quantum can have on it. As for the decades in order for such technology to come into effect, please do check the latest news from IBM, Google, and the Chinese firms' developments in this area. It's gonna be within our lifetime when we will see actual quantum computers in work (maybe not in your pocket like a phone yet), and then you could tell me what is the effect But don't forget, people in 40s-50s also were saying that thousands of years will pass before everyone in the world could have a personal portable computer at home... Less than 100 years passed and you have it in your pocket to check IG, TW, etc.


I am not sure how you see the connection between the destruction of tech, and land at the same time. But I guess we just have different understand of the potential situation which was described.

You actually are absolutely right. I don't know if that was sarcasm or what but I feel air and water might also get listed soon on Commodities exchanges if the scarcity of both so remains and increases. I Mean if you see the commodities exchange something very basic which started like a utility like power too is being traded on exchanges so what's the problem with air and water? Once we reach a time where you have to pay for it you might see Air and water derivatives getting listed on exchanges for sure. But yes talking about Bitcoin obviously you are right that we might see quantum computers which could end bitcoin but are you going to hold your cryptos for so long? I mean let's be pretty honest. No one plans to hold it for the next 30-40 years what I am trying to say is that if something has value and demand which is likely to sustain until next 5-7 years there is no harm in speculating on such a thing for time less than that.

Nope, I wasn't sarcastic at all. Because as you probably know - there are already futures on water https://www.cmegroup.com/trading/equity-index/us-index/nasdaq-veles-california-water-futures.html And yes, with such development: "securitized energy" -> "securitized line of code" -> "securitized water" -> "securitized air" could well be the next step (btw we securitize value - entirely new concept (not self-promotion)). Actually, we, internally had a concept long-time ago about new financial products that could emerge in the future also, and actually as you mentioned - scarcity and global demand & essential need for this "asset" can be good characteristics for the potential securitization. So if you want to predict what might come next, you could take a look at Maslow's Pyramid and try to imagine what constitutes different levels of the pyramid (water, air, food, are parts Psychological Needs for example, and almost all have been securitized by now) you could potentially predict what might be securitized next. But as for BTC you are absolutely right. Most of the people won't hold it for that long, no matter how loud they scream that they will HODL it forever. Being a human creates, even if they buy BTC today @ around $23,000, they will be happily screaming and selling if/when BTC reaches $100k or $1m. So yes, for sure there's no harm in speculating such things, same as with Tulips in 1637 

[AndySt]

But still - you can not call BTC "fake wealth". It's like calling an Apple stockholder a beggar just because he's holding Apple stock instead of dollars.
The state in which the cryptocurrency now is the same shares of Apple or IBM just in a different form.
But at the same time, when switching to the" natural "value of the cryptocurrency, it will also not be called" fake wealth " because it will already be a full - fledged means of payment. Quite a subtle and slippery question, in general.

I will even say more that all these super-rich people from the top ten richest people on the planet do not keep all their funds in the form of Fiat cash or in Bank deposits, but keep the bulk of their capital in the form of shares or shares in their business. Recently, the mass media slipped information about Elon Musk who does not have his own money and he constantly borrows it from others for living and food, so all this talk about fake wealth is both true and false.

[magneto]

What is gonna happen once the post-apocalyptic scenarios come true? When/if there will be no electricity, computers, phones, etc.? People will value no US Dollar backed by state promise to pay off debt… your decentralized piece of code will not exist anymore (I do know about some offline-friendly cryptocurrencies)… only gold or natural resources will become valuable again.

But it will exist? As long as there are bitcoin nodes running and preserving the ledger, your assets will completely safe.

And do you think that it is plausible that the internet will just disappear for an extended period of time while billions of people have already come to rely on it, and hundreds of millions make a living off of it? Please.

While I do know many “Bitcoin evangelists” will probably hate me for the words above, but don’t you think that Bitcoin intentionally or unintentionally became the new asset for the “fake rich”?

I'm still confused as what exactly you mean by the "fake rich". Are the Winklevoss twins a part of the "fake rich" because they weren't as elite before BTC rallied? No, they are still two very high net worth individuals.

And even old wealth is flocking towards BTC right now, just look at the amount of institutional demand.

[oventu]

However, the poor (not literally poor) ones want to show off, want to get hot girls, want to get attention from rich guys, want to show they also belong to the elite class. So what they can do? – They pretend to be rich / from higher social class.

As the others mentioned before, they are not Bitcoin's problem. Indeed Bitcoin emerged for realizing “Financial sovereignty”. Although nowadays it looks like it failed on its mission, but this is another story for another day.

I want address the “fake” rich problem by a philosophical point of view.
In ancient Greece civilization there were two kind of people, freemen and slaves. Whereas slaves have to be involved in the painful labor and life to satisfy their masters needs and their bodily needs, the free men have time to do the “heroic action”. The action by which excellence produces beautiful deeds. One could distinguish oneself from others, because of what “action” he did and not because of what he has in possession.
The “heroic action” is what we are missed in our civilization -since we are modern slaves-. So we pretend to be freeman by possession and not by doing “action”.
We have to act, particularly “heroic action”.

[Smartprofit]

However, the poor (not literally poor) ones want to show off, want to get hot girls, want to get attention from rich guys, want to show they also belong to the elite class. So what they can do? – They pretend to be rich / from higher social class.

As the others mentioned before, they are not Bitcoin's problem. Indeed Bitcoin emerged for realizing “Financial sovereignty”. Although nowadays it looks like it failed on its mission, but this is another story for another day.

I want address the “fake” rich problem by a philosophical point of view.
In ancient Greece civilization there were two kind of people, freemen and slaves. Whereas slaves have to be involved in the painful labor and life to satisfy their masters needs and their bodily needs, the free men have time to do the “heroic action”. The action by which excellence produces beautiful deeds. One could distinguish oneself from others, because of what “action” he did and not because of what he has in possession.
The “heroic action” is what we are missed in our civilization -since we are modern slaves-. So we pretend to be freeman by possession and not by doing “action”.
We have to act, particularly “heroic action”.

Yes, in the modern world there is little room for feats and beautiful deeds. 

Man creates new smartphones and computers.  However, don't computers and smartphones change the mind and psyche of people? 

People can learn by imitating more successful people by adopting certain behaviors from them.  However, modern people do not admire other people, but new iPhones.  And they don't learn from humans, but from computers.  As a result, humans themselves become androids.  Information and information flows are the most important thing in the modern world. 

There is no place for feats and beauty in the modern world.

[oventu]

However, the poor (not literally poor) ones want to show off, want to get hot girls, want to get attention from rich guys, want to show they also belong to the elite class. So what they can do? – They pretend to be rich / from higher social class.

As the others mentioned before, they are not Bitcoin's problem. Indeed Bitcoin emerged for realizing “Financial sovereignty”. Although nowadays it looks like it failed on its mission, but this is another story for another day.

I want address the “fake” rich problem by a philosophical point of view.
In ancient Greece civilization there were two kind of people, freemen and slaves. Whereas slaves have to be involved in the painful labor and life to satisfy their masters needs and their bodily needs, the free men have time to do the “heroic action”. The action by which excellence produces beautiful deeds. One could distinguish oneself from others, because of what “action” he did and not because of what he has in possession.
The “heroic action” is what we are missed in our civilization -since we are modern slaves-. So we pretend to be freeman by possession and not by doing “action”.
We have to act, particularly “heroic action”.

Yes, in the modern world there is little room for feats and beautiful deeds. 

Man creates new smartphones and computers.  However, don't computers and smartphones change the mind and psyche of people? 

People can learn by imitating more successful people by adopting certain behaviors from them.  However, modern people do not admire other people, but new iPhones.  And they don't learn from humans, but from computers.  As a result, humans themselves become androids.  Information and information flows are the most important thing in the modern world. 

There is no place for feats and beauty in the modern world.

There is no place for feats and beauty in the modern world.
Right now, it looks like true, but there are solutions too.
What we need is a new paradigm, in which people are respectable, because of their believes and their “acts” of making life easier for others, we need a “practical altruism”. Something beyond just pure morality. A game theory in which everyone has to do the right act in order to make benefit themselves. A system in which even evil can not do bad things. Of course bad doers always can do the bad but the cost of bad must be far higher than doing good. Right now “we have” the necessities for this system and game theory and “we have to” do that as well.
Only in this system can we can hope survive the humankind, whereas in modern history and modern governments (less than 200 years comparing all our thousands years of history) we ruined most of our natural resources and environment and humanity.
The problem is, if right now, one of the evils (supposing a few evils are governing the world) dreamed to stop bad doing and start to good doing, immediately the other bad doers swallow him. As a result, the world is a place of constant conflict and fight between the forces of evil and worst evils.
We -slaves- have no place in this fight. In fact we are the material and victims of this war. We are supporter of this wrong pillar of economy and culture, when we buy their products. we reproducing this social order when we “show off” our possessions, and finally we remain slave and force our child be slave as well if we do not “acting”. The act by which we will create our new political organization.
I am not a dreamer, and I am pretty sure we have all the tools we need, in order to achieve human prosperity.

[Swopon]

If BTC is for "Fake rich" then it could not prosper till now. So how can BTC reach this position? There is indeed some speculation but it's not all over. In this platform, some people are not honest and some are always trying to make a profit illegally but the maximum of the users are real from usage. All over the fact is people should have to know it well how to use it.

[amishmanish]

--

Yes, "nuoveau riche" is a great concept, but I didn’t refer to those ones. Those are typically already rich somehow, and are from lower social classes. Whom I referred to by “fake rich” are the ones who want to be "nuoveau riche", but are actually not, thus copy their attributes, without possessing the same wealth.

As for the Tesla - First Tesla Roadster was nearly same with Lotus Elise in design, but 2 times more expensive, was ½ seconds faster from 0 to 100 Km/h than Lotus. At the same time people could purchase Ferrari F430 Scuderia @ $187k, with 3.6s from 0 to 100 and way better design; could purchase Aston Martin DB9 @ $155k with 3.5s from 0 to 100, had great design, and had all the tech features for showing off; there were also same priced Porshe 911 Turbo, Audi R8 Quattro FSI, and in 2010 there appeared Chevrolet Camaro Callaway, Chevrolet Camaro SLP ZL575, Chevrolet Camaro Hennessey HPE700, Ford Mustang Shelby GT GeigerCars, and some others – all priced cheaper than Tesla Roadster, with way better design, mostly better interior, nearly all faster, and some of them with all the fancy tech.

Thus from the actual end-user perspective (average Joe who doesn’t care about the “green trend”) Tesla was significantly inferior car from unknown manufacturer. But it’s not the car-discussion topic, thus let’s not take community’s attention toward cards, but happy to discuss in DM if you wish, or on dedicated thread if there’s any.

I would have loved to continue the discussion on Tesla if you weren't comparing apples with oranges. You gave a list of ICE cars comparing them with Tesla. "Green" is not a trend but a necessity for a sustainable future and for the future generations to not face climate disasters. We are just doing our part.

And you are absolutely correct about Bitcoin – for the ones who truly understand what it is what it is, it’s really revolutionary. However, I think there are very few of those. Majority in it are for gains only, as you could see even from the comments above. Therefore, I think you are actually correct, but for very small group of people, while the majority, unfortunately are not like that.

The time when Bitcoin was revolutionary on an individual basis has long gone. Now is the time for slow and steady adoption and establishment of products on top of Bitcoin. Unfortunately, most of the work and focus is on financial derivative products on top of Bitcoin. Bitcoin itself has become a trader's darling for those who wish to day-trade crypto. This doesn't really feel anything like the revolution it was supposed to be. Yet, hope is alive that it will still make a difference.

[as.exchange]

I will even say more that all these super-rich people from the top ten richest people on the planet do not keep all their funds in the form of Fiat cash or in Bank deposits, but keep the bulk of their capital in the form of shares or shares in their business. Recently, the mass media slipped information about Elon Musk who does not have his own money and he constantly borrows it from others for living and food, so all this talk about fake wealth is both true and false.

That's a great point! From such perspective both the top50-500 in Forbes can be considered as "fake rich", but what differentiates them from other common people is that they know how to manage leverage for own benefit, while the average person falls into the debt trap and rarely succeeds to get out of it by getting addicted to the "cheap money needle". But actually, there's a theory (not sure how true that is) that the really powerful ones and elites who control most of the assets and money are not even in Forbes, or at least not the tops ones there.

But it will exist? As long as there are bitcoin nodes running and preserving the ledger, your assets will completely safe.

And do you think that it is plausible that the internet will just disappear for an extended period of time while billions of people have already come to rely on it, and hundreds of millions make a living off of it? Please.

I'm still confused as what exactly you mean by the "fake rich". Are the Winklevoss twins a part of the "fake rich" because they weren't as elite before BTC rallied? No, they are still two very high net worth individuals.

And even old wealth is flocking towards BTC right now, just look at the amount of institutional demand.

Well yes it can exist (or not - depending on severity of the assumed scenario), but in such case why would people need Bitcoin in that world?

As for Winklevoss twins, well it depends on their asset composition. If they hold most of assets in crypto, I wouldn't consider them that rich. One day things might turn out to be in such case that state would completely ban non-state-backed cryptos (yes, another post-apocalyptic scenario, but we saw that in China for example already), and what will happen to their wealth? What if states around the globe coordinate to fight against uncontrolled money supply and take expropriate all BTC from people? - This is not that impossible as it happened with gold before. At that time all fiat-based elites ones will remain where they were, all asset-ones also, all crypto-based elites will vanish...

As for old wealth flocking in BTC, - well yes and no. Yes - it is happening, no - we don't know the reasons for that, and the history showed that they do take opportunities to speculate on hypes (and even Goldman Sachs did before), thus we can't really call it that "old money is flooding to crypto", at least not yet.

However, the poor (not literally poor) ones want to show off, want to get hot girls, want to get attention from rich guys, want to show they also belong to the elite class. So what they can do? – They pretend to be rich / from higher social class.

As the others mentioned before, they are not Bitcoin's problem. Indeed Bitcoin emerged for realizing “Financial sovereignty”. Although nowadays it looks like it failed on its mission, but this is another story for another day.

I want address the “fake” rich problem by a philosophical point of view.
In ancient Greece civilization there were two kind of people, freemen and slaves. Whereas slaves have to be involved in the painful labor and life to satisfy their masters needs and their bodily needs, the free men have time to do the “heroic action”. The action by which excellence produces beautiful deeds. One could distinguish oneself from others, because of what “action” he did and not because of what he has in possession.
The “heroic action” is what we are missed in our civilization -since we are modern slaves-. So we pretend to be freeman by possession and not by doing “action”.
We have to act, particularly “heroic action”.

Yes, in the modern world there is little room for feats and beautiful deeds. 

Man creates new smartphones and computers.  However, don't computers and smartphones change the mind and psyche of people? 

People can learn by imitating more successful people by adopting certain behaviors from them.  However, modern people do not admire other people, but new iPhones.  And they don't learn from humans, but from computers.  As a result, humans themselves become androids.  Information and information flows are the most important thing in the modern world. 

There is no place for feats and beauty in the modern world.

I cannot disagree with you guys. In the modern world, you either "eat, or be eaten". And us, learning from computers, phones, books are de facto controlled by the ones who produce those and feed their ideas into those computers, books and phones. And your social circle of mostly less intelligent people (since most of us (but not all) will think we are the smartest in our own group), will be fed by others other ideas which will circulate in this social circle thus reinforcing those ideas which were injected by others. This creates a closed loop which is hard to escape from.

As for Bitcoin - yes, it wasn't created as a mean to be "fake rich". But to make simple analogy what I mean is: Bitcoin is a hammer, you can use it to build your own house (real wealth), or you can keep it and collect other hammers. But the real wealth is in the hands of the ones who control that hammer and the means to produce it (iron and wood if you wish) and can take it away from you any moment, or ban you from using it. Those controlling means of production (hammer and wood) controlled it for thousands of years and didn't change. It's just now they allow you to use it, and smart ones will use hammer to build houses, sell them and transit to owners of hammer and wood. The ones who keep collecting hammers will be out of the game when the music stops playing.

This is what I meant as "fake rich"

There is no place for feats and beauty in the modern world.
Right now, it looks like true, but there are solutions too.
What we need is a new paradigm, in which people are respectable, because of their believes and their “acts” of making life easier for others, we need a “practical altruism”. Something beyond just pure morality. A game theory in which everyone has to do the right act in order to make benefit themselves. A system in which even evil can not do bad things. Of course bad doers always can do the bad but the cost of bad must be far higher than doing good. Right now “we have” the necessities for this system and game theory and “we have to” do that as well.
Only in this system can we can hope survive the humankind, whereas in modern history and modern governments (less than 200 years comparing all our thousands years of history) we ruined most of our natural resources and environment and humanity.
The problem is, if right now, one of the evils (supposing a few evils are governing the world) dreamed to stop bad doing and start to good doing, immediately the other bad doers swallow him. As a result, the world is a place of constant conflict and fight between the forces of evil and worst evils.
We -slaves- have no place in this fight. In fact we are the material and victims of this war. We are supporter of this wrong pillar of economy and culture, when we buy their products. we reproducing this social order when we “show off” our possessions, and finally we remain slave and force our child be slave as well if we do not “acting”. The act by which we will create our new political organization.
I am not a dreamer, and I am pretty sure we have all the tools we need, in order to achieve human prosperity.

You depict the current system pretty well, but I personally really don't see it changing. Even Bitcoin was created for good of people, but it ended up where we are now. And as the time goes - it will get only worse. I wish and really hope you to be correct that we do have all the tools and what is needed to change the system and achieve human prosperity, but I don't think it is the case now...

It could be a simple solution for example - arrange a day X around the globe and raise and awaken to fight the old slave-owners, but this is what is likely to happen. Imagine we crate a simple sign-up and watch time website. People will sign-up for sure. There will be people thinking it's fake and will forget about this. There will be people thinking that "oh, my pizza delivery on that day is more important", "oh, I didn't finish my work assignment, so f*ck the Day X", "I have a date with a pretty girl, - definitely more important than some freaks doing some day x". In the end, for sure there will be some people who will try to raise and fight, but they all will get arrested, and some of them will try to cooperate with the police to get some materialistic benefits by turning in their friends whom they know actually went to "fight". And all this will end pretty quickly... It's an poisoned cycle - to change a system, you need resources, to get resources, you need to become part of system, and by the time you become part of it, you enjoy those resources so much that you don't wanna change anything, because you know well that if you do anything - your resources and nice lifestyle and safety will be taken away from you...



P.S. really love to see all you guys sharing such deep ideas and thoughts on this topic. Really didn't expect that it will attract such smart people!

[as.exchange]

If BTC is for "Fake rich" then it could not prosper till now. So how can BTC reach this position? There is indeed some speculation but it's not all over. In this platform, some people are not honest and some are always trying to make a profit illegally but the maximum of the users are real from usage. All over the fact is people should have to know it well how to use it.

May I know please when was the last time you went to buy groceries or new phone with Bitcoin? Or maybe to repay mortgage or student debt with Bitcoin? Or to purchase or do some M&A deals using Bitcoin? Or even see US GAAP or IFRS to issue standards to keep accounting in BTC? Until this and many many other things happen, BTC is hard to be called a measure of "real rich" unless those with fiat or real assets and means of "old" capital.