If you are so out of place at the demonstrations I would suspect that it probably shows.  In that case, it may be somewhat better to _not_ make a big deal about Bitcoin.  If people sense that you are considering them universally stupid and backward, they very well could have some non-positive perceptions of you as well and may not be as receptive to considering and exploring Bitcoin as they could be.

It is, of course, a free country (for now) and you can do as you like.  I'm just saying as a practical matter it might be a better strategy to pay some attention to selecting the messenger as well as the message for a target audience in promoting Bitcoin.  I do hope that you balance your desire have Bitcoin promoted successfully with your other priorities.

I should have said 'changing the color of some poker chips'. 

Thanks for the heads-up on this forum.  It was good enough news to provoke me into gobbling up some more BTC.

Hi All,

I, and I think others, are not really satisfied with sending new users to the faucet.  I feel that this might cause new users more confusion then help in some ways.  I think that sending them there is pretty much universally accepted as a temporary thing to have something for the weekend.

I spent half the weekend hacking out a prototype system to try to illustrate some ideas I have about system design.  We've had some discussions on the IRC channel, but it's hard to describe things that way, so I instead just tried to hack out a demo.

-----

The thing I'm working on is hoped to be a pretty usable 'new user' walk-through of the following:

 - user understands loosely the terms 'address' and 'wallet' and the basic principles of keeping them safe.

 - user selects his/her wallet solution seeing the back-to-back comparison.  Option to select a pre-funded wallet for speedy progress.

 - user selects something to spend BTC on and actually does it.  Hopefully marvels at how easy it is.

 - Done.  Finished.  User has no more use for the system and the system has no more use for the user.

All services are provided by third parties.  The system simply shows the options back-to-back and makes some non-biased comments about them.  I feel that the best way to learn something is to need to make some decisions.  The system is designed to help the user make informed choices.

-----

I feel that it is very important to show no sign of bias to any vendor, or indication of data collection (and, of course, do none...the world is already too full of data collection...trust me on that!)

I've got things working so that a single URL (printed on a hand-out and with a QR) will take the user through a progressive set of 4 pages.  The system simply knows the user by the 'hash' which is unique per hand-out (card or flyer), and keeps track of what phases the user has been through.  No need for cookies, logins, passwords, etc.  Very simple.

-----

Another design feature is that some significant effort has been put into considering the 'donor' part of the equation.  Not least of which because I am one

As  doner, I would like to contribute to (say) #occupywallstreet.  This system gently suggests that the recipient contribute some of the funds he/she was just given to a set of organizations selected by doners via a poll.  Thus, the doner can get hopefully some fraction of his funding to an organization of his/her choice, but help get new Bitcoin users on-line in the process.

I envision a 'campaign' page with a live real-time graphics showing the funds donated pool, and the recipient progress, the pass-thru donation rate, etc.  In this way:

 - donations can be solicited during a campaign and on an as-needed basis.

 - doners can have some real confidence that their funds are being used appropriately.  They can watch it happening in real-time.

------

A big source of debate has been whether to pass out 'pre-loaded' hand-outs with funding, or do the funding of new users in real time.  I prefer the latter for several reasons:

 - it allows the user to select his/her wallet solution.
 - it allows much more generious funding to recipients as only the handouts being used need to be funded.
 - it allows many more hand-outs to be distributed, and the distribution broken up amongst semi-non-trusted distributors.
 - it fits in with my thoughts on 'real time use graphics' to hopefully prop up doner interest and involvement.
 - I think it would actually be easier to do than not.

I would like it if someone could volenteer to print up and pass out cards, and 1/2 an hour later be on the street doing so.

I believe that only a small fraction of the handouts will ever be acted upon, but that it will be difficult to predict the use rate.  While hand-out accounts could be retracted eventually, quite a bit of funding could be tied up for some period of time (It would be nice if the card could be used successfully weeks or months after it was issued.)

------

I have also put some thought into management of the 'hash lists'.  Compromise of these could lose funds, and they need to be handed out to 'distributors/printers' in the heat of battle.

------

I'm not a web designer and have very limited experience with web application frameworks.  The system I've hacked out is quick-n-dirty to put it mildly.  It is just to illustrate flow.  Most of the important things are not done, and, for example, I just used a pickle instead of a real database.

I've got it running on my machine at home and have set up my firewall to redirect to it.  If anyone is interested please PM me and I'll give a test hash to try out.  Or the source code to run locally (but again, I caution that it is just a few hours of hacking and is totally throw-away.)

Here is the '/help' output if would help illustrate anything (I used random 'two_word' variation of 'hashes' because I think it would be more user friendly and good enough for the purpose of this project the project stands in my mind.)

- / - info about 'operationbitcoin'.
- /help - this message.
- /reload - reload class objects.
- /die - try to shut down server.
- /{campaign} - e.g., /ows info about campaign (funds, stats, etc.)
- /{campaign}/{hash} - e.g., /ows/bird_rock.
- /{campaign}/{hash}/info - info about user.
- /{campaign}/{hash}/[0123] - user's {n}th page.
- /{campaign}/{hash}/reset - demo-only...wipes user from db.

I've no idea what the future of this variant of solution is.  I hope some of the ideas are adopted by this (operationbitcoin.org) project.  If not, I may or may not continue to pursue it.  Although I would learn a lot of things I would like to know (about implementing web-apps and such) by continuing dev work here, I've a short attention span which is not conducive to operating long running projects.

To the folks who've been participating in the philosophical discussions an this thread:

I'm a socialist.  One thing I expect that socialist and libertarians would agree with is that I am NOT a socialist.  I'm fine with that.

I've read all of your comments to me and to one another.  I have agreement with some of the statements, disagreement with some, respect for some arguments, and not so much for others.

I've appreciated enlightening conversations and hope we can get back to them sometime.  For now I am planning to bow out and focus on trying to get Bitcoin known to as many people as possible no matter who they are.  I think that we all recognize that the protests are a good opportunity to do this.

Let me just weigh in as an unabashed socialist if I may...


And Bitcoin is going to end corruption?  Pipe dream.  Our current monetary systems have a level of entrenched corruption which is difficult to break out of.  The (second) best I am hoping for in Bitcoin is that it provides some lubricant to make the break-out possible.

I mostly fear a 'one world' control structure/currency system, or one in a more blatant form than we have today (demonstrating that socialists can be as wacko-conspiracy-minded as anyone and probably breaking some myths about the preferences of socialists.)  The first best I am hoping for is that Bitcoin or a descendant provides a viable alternative if and when a one-world currency as presented as the only answer to our problems.

BTW, I like capitalism very much.  It's obvious that it is the only engine with the power to keep a modest sized society comfortable and well fed.  Even the communist Chinese figured that one out, and I doubt that it's utility has gone past many of the protesters.  My bet is that they are angry at exactly the corruption that WiseOldOwl is SHOUTING about.


Mussolini had a term for that.  Fascism.  And who better would know?  I personally feel that we (in the US) are much farther down _that_ road than a lot of people imagine, and the road ahead has been paved at this time.


Greed is baked into our DNA...if it were not, we would not be here (which a lot of my ilk seem to have trouble accepting.)  But so is fear.

Bitcoin appeals to me because it could be forcible taken from everyone by a simple majority (with some padding) via a software update.  This could provide the 'FEAR' necessary to keep abuse of the system to a tolerable level.  In this way, even _I_ have some reservations about the 're-distributitative' nature of Bitcoin.  The 'have-not's could rape the 'have's so fast and so hard their heads would spin, and for no particularly fair reason other than that they can.  I'm surprised that it is so popular amongst some of you folks (but maybe that is because I don't really understand anachro-capitalism as well as I should...I read a bit about it the other day.  It's kind of fascinating actually and does not seem to be exactly what I thought it was.)


The more that wealth and power accumulates to a small fraction of the population, the more some of you people carry on about 'socialism' and 're-distribution.'  Handy for the small fraction of people with all the poker chips.  Funny that.  We don't even have universal health care for Christ's sake!  Forgive me if I question some of you folks's powers of analysis and resistance to propaganda (but I'm not expecting that you will )  While everything is something of a gradation, I'd say that Sweden is socialist while he US is more fascist.

At the risk of offending miners...

Seems to me that mining is something of a sideshow and and a system engineering problem who's solution does not matter very much as long as it works.  But I would suspect that Satoshi would have been aware of the possibilities for solving the chosen proof-of-work problem and put at least some consideration into it.  The evolution from CPU -> GPU -> ASIC overlayed with the rate of inflation seems to me to be yet another impressive (and probably non-accidental) happenstance.

I have some wonder about what will happen as ASICs come on-line and how that will occur, but don't understand things well enough to decide whether I have concern or not.  It does seem to me that a lot of the problems that could crop up should attackers gain the upper hand at such a juncture could be addressed by the 'sledgehammer' approach of addressing them in code.

The flyer looks pretty good in my opinion.

I wish it made some mention of open source as I feel that this property lends great credibility to the project.

One of the reasons I am cautiously optimistic about the Bitcoin system is that it has by now been analysed to some level of detail by some competent scientists and engineers, and (amazingly) no glaring showstoppers seem to have jumped out.  At least not any that I am aware of.

If somehow the concept that the Bitcoin system is open source and has had a not insignificant amount of scrutiny by many diverse parties, I think that would be a good addition and worth trying to shoe-horn in.

'group displays of social posturing' have probably a better track record of effecting change than shifting bits around.  But more and more the two are working in conjunction with one another which I see as a welcome thing.  Do you really know enough of the participants of the Occupy-x protests to belittle the entire group?  I don't, and I don't have a easy access to the mainstream media to help me understand these people.  One of these days I'll go find out for myself.

The amount of stupid on this forum?  I think that you've missed the point of SA and/or gotten the terms 'annoy' and 'amuse' mixed up.  Not that I am an authority on SA, but it seems unlikely to me that they would bend over backward to come here just to be annoyed.

Personally I rather like it that people can lock their threads.  It helps identify who the people who cannot defend their positions and are thus not worth wasting time over in the future.  (And the fact that it annoys SA goons is kind of amusing.)

It's quite possible that Bitcoin is low enough on the radar that something like this could work, especially if things are fast moving and editing effort is lite.  I'm sure it would make it on Youtube though, and going viral and/or making the rounds on the Internet-based media is becoming fairly high-value.

Judging by footage of the women who got hit, it does not seem that one has to do much to 'piss off' the officer ranks of the cops to pepper-spray you.  It will be quite fascinating to see how and if the sub-officer ranks of the paramilitaries are brought in-line as things progress.  I wonder how long before the break out the heat gun anti-personnel toys they've been puttering around with over the last decade?

As I left winger, a liberal, and something of a socialist, lemme clue you in about how I and a lot of my friends feel.


Anyone can see that 'communism' has little or nothing going for it.  Anyone using the term is almost certainly an brainwashed FoxNews/KochParty simpletons.


I'm going to skip commenting about this at this time and say only that you've indeed identified some things to be mindful of.

But if anyone interprets 'obsolete the fed' as 'pro-wall street' it is likely that it is because we are suspicious that 'wall street money' can and does corrupt political organizations.  Just as does 'Soros money' or whatever.

I think that one of the best ways to avoid being taken seriously is to look like a clown and a buffoon irrespective of whether the shoe fits.  One of the biggest advantages we have is that we are, in fact, 'right' and that a lot of people will support us for that reason, but probably fewer if we are blatantly obnoxious.

I also think that if one is outgunned than it is neither wise nor effective to stand at the top of the hill with a big red target painted on your chest and yelling at the top of your lungs that you are going to decimate.  I favor more subtle attacks and believe that they will be more effective.  If we are seen as provoking a fight, nobody (myself included) is going to be real shocked if we find one.

I strongly suspect that Bitcoin has been noticed by 'the enemies' by virtue of the partial foiling of the financial isolation of wikileaks and occupywallstreet (among other things.)  I think the Bitcoin community should be brainstorming about possible modes of retribution and how best to counter any that may come up.  Painting the community as consisting primarily of dangerous wackos and self-serving scammers is a rather obvious mode of attack (in part because, in my humble opinion, there is an element of truth here) and the less that sticks the better.

I am in favor of being on the attack which is why this project has my support.  But I do believe that we have some significant handicaps and need to be clever and thoughtful about tactics.

(I agree with the 'obsolete the fed' text, BTW.  To me it implies simply that the fed is no longer necessary...thus setting aside the argument about whether it was useful in the first place.  The supporters of keeping the Federal Reserve will be put into a position of explaining why is still necessary in light of other hopefully more preferred sources of monetary management.)

I like the landing page, and both version of the card.

I also like both of the terms 'peer-to-peer' and 'open source' ('open source' means more to me personally, but I suspect that that is not typical.)  Both of these terms should, in my opinion, be slotted for possible inclusion on the hand-out at some point as time and space allows.

I am in favor of neglecting to get into a discussion of anonymity simply because it is to technical and to much of a can of worms for new users.  (I'm glad this has not come up as an issue yet.)

I also like the terms 'non debt-based' and 'non inflationary', but those suffer from the same issues of complexity and technicality as 'anonymous'.

Thank you evoorhees et-al.

I'm not in favor of 'sugar coating' any text.  I am, however, sensitive to the issue of displaying to much bluster and making a bad first impression in that way.

I think that you nailed it in terms of piquing people's interest being a key.  Being able to demonstrate a real utility (like working around the PayPal block) is a great way to do this.  Giving people an easy way to actually contribute themselves and get somewhat familiar with Bitcoin in the process is even better.

Using Bitcoin to bypass the PayPal block is in fact a direct assault, a significant victory, and happily also something with is 100% appropriate under the theory that we have a 'free' country.  I am confident that this action will speak louder than any slogans to a lot of the more clued in people.

Bitcoin is drastically out gunned on every front and a significant underdog.  It seems far-fetched that we are going to vanquish the fed and the banks and I personally see no real win in stating that...I mostly see it painting a 'laugh at me' target on us to be honest.  (I actually think that we could 'win by default' at the end of the day, but that is much to nuanced to build a slogan around.)

I've been following the IRC channel and am satisfied that honest people are working diligently and effectively toward the goal of this project...and on a pretty tight schedule.  Thus, I've followed up with the remainder of my pledge which was another 25 BTC (and again, a bit of change.)

This post is just some thoughts on what I think could be an effective UI, probably for future incarnations (or what I am taking the liberty of calling 'campaigns') due to limited time.

First, a list of things which, as a user, I would consider turn-offs.

 - appearance of preference for an organization (commercial, political, etc.)
 - need to give personal info.
 - appearance of data mining (cookies, redirects, etc.)

Next, a concern.

 - I like the QR code, and the 'extreme' one that someone posted was pretty cool but I did not like the redirect though.  I do have some concern that if it is 'to easy', people will visit the site in the heat of battle from their phone (which is exactly what I did today when the 'extreme QR' was published.)  I think it would be generally better if the user visited later, from home, when they are relaxing and more likely to be in front of a laptop or workstation.  This so they could focus on the material, take notes, bring up extra browser windows, etc.  All things that would help get a handle on Bitcoin from a starting point.

Next, a 'tour'.
It would be nice if the system remembered where the user was in the tour.  As best I understand things, this could be accomplished without cookies in the case were a unique, per-user URL is published.

====
First screen - Some text like:
====

"We are going to give you actual bitcoin from a pool donated by current users for the purpose of introducing new users to the system.  We believe that Bitcoin is revolutionary in many ways and has the potential to have a positive impact in many parts of the world.  The more users, the more possible this becomes and that is a major goal of this project.

This is real Bitcoin money (albeit not a whole lot.)  It can be converted to USD, EU, RMB, etc, etc using a number of exchange services.  Some of the doners obtained the BTC from exchanges using USD, EU, etc.  Others ran 'mining rigs' to obtain it.

The amount of money we will give you is based on the size of the pool and the number of recipients.  It may vary, and more may be issued to you at a future time.  The only thing required to accept this money is an address which is unique for you.  This address is associated with a secret key which needs to be protected.  There are several ways to obtain such an address:

  - Wallet Service  (a third-party service maintains your address/secret key on-line.)  In some cases, we can obtain this wallet in real time on your behalf for ease of use.
    - instawallet
    - btccinch
    - operationbitcoin.org (yup, us.)
    - whatever

  - Own Lite Client (In this case your secret key is maintained locally.  Not available yet.)

  - Own Full Client  (You may install the client software on your own machine.  In this case, you hold your own private key and participate in supporting transactions in the network, but it is more effort to figure things out.)

  - Have address.  Send funds to this:

=====
Second screen - Some text like this:
=====

"Now, what can you do with your money?  The goal of this page is to demonstrate the ease and flexibility of sending arbitrary amounts of money to different people or groups.  We will help dig up an address and encourage you to excersize the transfer methods of the wallet solution you have chosen.

  - Donate some or all of it to a cause of your choice.  Here are some options that we can think of:

    - occupywallstreet: <address>
    - wikileaks: <address>

  - Donate back to the pool from where these funds were drawn: <address>

  - Give it away at random:

   - last user who went through this: <address>
   - n-th user who went through this: <n in box> <address appears>
 
  - send it to this address: <box for address>

  - do nothing with it...I'll figure it out later.

Note that it is possible for someone to send you funds, or that we will make an adjustment when this campaign is finished.  You may wish to attach your address to a service like

   - bitcoinnotify
   - whatever

so you can be alerted if this happens.

====

OK, I'm tired of this now.  Basically warnings about not trusting people, where to get further info, etc, etc.

One more thing.  I like the way Google technical references and bitcoinity have expandable sections for further descriptions.  I find this very usable, and possibly nice for something as complex as trying to describe Bitcoin to a new user.

Fixed.

That statement has some element of accuracy.  I'm among the sponsors of this effort, a socialist (as much as anything), and hope that a lot of others share my resentment of 'Wall Street' and become involved in trying to make some changes.

I suspect that my political leanings are in the minority however, and have zero ties to anyone on a political level.  I think that 'revolutionary Communists' are at least highly endangered if not extinct.  I've never seen one in the wild.

I don't think anyone here failed to realize that Andrew_Bitcoiner is starting to freak out a little bit.  If it's any consolation, Andrew, many's a slip twixt the cup and the lip.  You can start to panic in earnest if this things seems to be going anywhere in a few days.