If they don't reinvest a great deal into this project, this thing is a total waste of time - this team needs to grow ALOT.
I absolutely, positively 101% agree. I bet Max and Olivier do, too. My biggest concern with this project remains that these two guys just completely took off on the XCR team (and highjacked their roadmap along the way) - this doesn't make me feel too secure about the idea that they love this project to the point that they would never leave again for another "open source project". I'm still skeptical that this team of two deserves SO MUCH credit when: 1) they didn't code much of XCR 2) all their hard work in XCR obviously didn't pay off
I have no idea what the true story is about what happened inside the Crypti team several weeks ago. I do know that lead Crypti dev Boris Povod has agreed to be an occasional Lisk consultant. It has been repeated multiple times by other top Crypti Foundation members that Lisk as a fork of Crypti now has their full support. Certainly there was a shock when Max and Olivier forked Crypti into Lisk, but I think saying those two "hijacked the Crypti roadmap along the way" is twisting the story a little yourself. Crypti still has the backing of a majority 62 million coins that have not been shifted over to Lisk, the continued primary loyalty of the original main lead code dev, a larger and more varied Crypti Foundation team than just "two guys", current presence on two exchanges and a fully up-and-running coin blockchain they have operated for almost two years and over 2 million blocks. Lisk has none of these things at the present time. Don't feel sorry for Crypti. You are welcome to go join Crypti in their journey forward if you wish to do so. If Crypti is strong, it can survive the departure of "only" two disloyal team members as the Crypti Foundation continues to execute its desired Crypti roadmap. I am pretty sure the official Feb 1 Crypti roadmap at the time of the Lisk fork did not include doing a second round of funding that would accumulate around a million dollars of new working capital by April 1. Go Max. Go Olivier. Keep on shaking it up. |
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+1 vote for putting 8% Devs share under a “scheduled release” contract.
Lisk core team doesn't tell you what to do with your share. Why the fuck you think you can tell them what to do with their share? ICO terms was clear. Take it or leave it. . The donations of BTC and XCR that have been made to Lisk are effectively gifts to Max and Olivier for which you have no right to expect anything in return. If you suddenly make them "not gifts" subject to "contracts" then you are suddenly opening up a HUGE legal Pandora's Box. We do not want to go there. Plus, I am no lawyer but it seems to me that a true legal contract is not possible here on any topic. Max is in Germany. Olivier is in the UK. Pretend for a minute they did sign a scheduled release contract and then dumped 8M Lisk on April 1 anyway. Now what? What court are you going to go to and adjudicate this so-called contact you want? The Court Of The Internet?Practically, what you want is a scheduled release "pledge". Max has said he is going to hold his Lisk for a long time. That is the pledge you are looking for. You have what you want! Now it is time to just sit back and watch Max's actions to see if he is a man of his word. |
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This thread is starting to feel like the endless NXT thread back in the day. Good times then, good vibes now!Code updated to include first week bonus and XCR fixed priced.
Nuna, thanks for this. I really think it was important to do and I'm glad you agree. It is hard enough keeping everybody on the same page about money matters here without giving them extra confusion with two sets of accounting ledgers with different rules and different bottom line satoshi prices. Thanks again.If you plan on holding long term, how about creating a contract that release a percentage of your LISK based on specific conditions? Some factors could be time and market cap.
Lisk is Max and Olivier's show. They know how they want to run Lisk and have put terms and conditions out for donors to read before letting go of their BTC. At this point, I personally think it is time to trust their plan and vision and not retroactively start putting extra chains and new conditions on them just because the numbers are getting big. They have not done one single thing to show they have any malicious intent whatsoever. You have given talented guys big resources so they can try to do something amazing. I say let's give them a chance to deliver for all of us. I'm not seeing that as big driver for demand, you need lot of dapps and publishers, therefore the lisk price should not be so high.
One betting dapp with a volume of 100 BTC a day will already create a huge demand. Now imagine 50 IoT dapps, 10 betting dapps, 30 social dapps, ... I'm sure the demand will be there. It will just take a few weeks/months to pick up. The dapps need to be coded first. Before that all is speculation.  I'm not following.. I saw the dapps we'll be capable to use the Bitcoin API, if so.. they can easily bypass Lisk as medium of exchange and use just BTC. Is this correct or dapps are forced use lisk as medium of exchange ? Already a very successful ico. Congrats to max True, it is kinda hard to believe that the ICO is already close to 2100 BTC donations even after excluding XCR donations. Congrats to Max & Oliver and the community as well!! Day
1&2
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| Donated BTC
801
43
131
109
190
106
63
69
113
174
314 |
Its their startup, they deserve it. Would you take all the billions from Mark Zuckerberg ?
I absolutely agree that Lisk is the startup brainchild of Max and Olivier. If they had not forked Crypti into Lisk, the whole version 0.5.5 sidechain / dapp codebase would be just about dead and buried by now. Instead Lisk now has a real shot at breaking into the top level of all cryptocoins. What they did took guts and hard work under great personal stress.
For the risk they have taken and effort they made, they absolutely deserve the level of rewards they have set aside from themselves. They have effectively created a start-up company and given 85% ownership of it to people other than themselves in their first round of financing. Of the 15% ownership they have set aside, they have committed to giving 7% of it away to others to further the Lisk cause and keep only 8% total ownership to split between themselves for a total of 4% total ownership of Lisk each.
You call this greedy? You are crazy. To use an English phrase, Max and Olivier have "given away the store". Most typical tech startups drop the owners to a 4-5% ownership level after FIVE rounds of funding, not the first one. For example, read Lemkin's comment in this post:
https://www.quora.com/How-did-Mark-Zuckerberg-manage-to-own-25-of-Facebook
And just for fun:
http://whoownsfacebook.com/
Yes, the Lisk numbers are getting large. But don't criticize Max and Olivier for keeping 4% personal compensation. That only shows ignorance on the part of the critic on how ICOs/IPOs work, not greed on the part of guys we should be body-surfing across our Lisk community mosh pit in celebration of both their generosity and their wild success so far.
I'm not understanding how will you monetize all those crypti, 36M crypti it's a really large amount to sell. Or are them yours from the crypti project and this is a nice way to convert them in something better, lisk in this case without make it clear.... Accepting Crypti in exchange for Lisk is a polite gesture to the XCR donors who originally funded the 0.5.5 code base forked from Crypti by Max and Olivier. It allows these XCR donors to continue to participate in (and reap the rewards from) the continuing development of what their funding started.
To da moon for us all!
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Cograts guys..also if the crowdasales willl finish today...this is a big success!!  Nope. The Lisk ICO rolls onward for another two weeks. my bad english..i know will finish in 2 weeks...my intent is to say that if the last day was today is a success too! Yes! Agreed!
MILESTONE REACHED:
OVER 2000 ACTUAL BTC DONATED SO FAR...
LISK MARKET CAP $1.3M & CASH DEVELOPMENT FUND $800K+
TWO WEEKS LEFT TO GO...(500 or more BTC over the next two weeks will create a $1M+ cash fund for Lisk code and eco development !!! LISK IS GOING PLACES !!!) |
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Cograts guys..also if the crowdasales willl finish today...this is a big success!! Nope. The Lisk ICO rolls onward for another two weeks. |
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- snip -
I agree. I think it's only "good" for all the people who asking every 10 posts, what the current price is. Maybe It's possible to add "some math" into the script, so it will show nearly the same as your sheet? Two changes would go a long way (1) use a constant 13 BTC per 1M XCR as the conversion factor instead of the current market price for Crypti; (2) applying a 15% escalation factor for the first 1350 BTC collected, and 10% escalation factor on BTC collected thereafter. This mod could be changed to 5% in the third week and 0% in the last week. Nuno, Max - you OK with such mods? |
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 Here is the source code, all commented for easy understanding: <snip> crontab -e */10 * * * * /usr/bin/php /var/www/html/lisk/index.php Awesome! Added it to the OP. This is a great API programming effort and looks awesome. However, there are some problems in the logic and the algorithm used has some serious flaws. Plus, I would argue it is not even a good idea to display it in its current form. Overall, the Lisk price in the graphic is being underestimated by a little over 15% and that error will grow slightly over the next two weeks as more and more "effective" BTC are "handed out" as early participation bonuses. Currently this amount stands at a little over 252 BTC and climbing. These must be included in the Lisk price even though they were never actually collected. These "imaginary" 252 BTC are effectively a legitimate marketing expense that has made this ICO more successful than it otherwise would have been.Nuno acknowledges he is not counting these early participation bonuses, since there is no place he can go with an API and get real data on how much has been handed out. Also, his code also shows that he is using the current market price of Crypti instead of the constant 13 BTC per 1M XCR actually being used. How big are these discrepancies? As I write this, he says 1 Lisk = 2625 satoshi = 0.01069 USD; my spreadsheet is showing 1 Lisk = 3024 satoshi = 0.01235 USD. Compare for yourself: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Q2MJ25_bK5Yi60FYohYCUEkujUtL5c0P1dOdlDMPMBI/edit#gid=1360974801I would argue my spreadsheet numbers are a "better" number to use. However, my spreadsheets aren't perfect either. I only update them manually a couple of times per day instead of instantly via an API. Plus, the 1350 total BTC I am showing as being gathered at the 15% bounus is a close but approximate figure that I will update when Max releases the official figure. If Lisk is going to have ("inflationary") early participation bonuses and constant Crypti exchange factors as official Lisk policy, these MUST be included in the Lisk price. I think the correct way to look at the difference here is that nuno is showing us where the Lisk price would be if it were based only on tangibles, pure market forces and actual BTC collected. My spreadsheet number is the number with all the free marketing goodies included that were added in to increase participation in the ICO - goodies that have worked as intended and beyond! Ultimately Lisk price is about belief. I have argued in an earlier post that the early participation bonus and Crypti bonus are fair ways of valuing community enthusiasm and the existing codebase, and that the spreadsheet number is a fair starting exchange price for Lisk after the ICO at an exchange. If we revert to "no, the value of Lisk is only in the actually collected BTC and nothing more", then expect to take a significant price hit when we go to the exchanges. If you don't continually hammer home that the Lisk bonuses are a fair part of the Lisk price that have made this a more successful ICO, then those bonuses will not be reflected (ie, "paid for") in the eventual Lisk market price.Bottom line: Nuno's graphic - as it is now - is gonna cost Lisk money. We would be better off without it. |
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At their site they stated the following in the FAQ:
"It's not possible to specify that beforehand. We collect as many BTC and XCR as possible by our ICO participants and will equally distribute 85,000,000 LISK with the launch of our network at the end of March. Once the ICO is over we can calculate the exact price for one LISK."
Does it means that I won't receive the amount of LISKs proportial to my ICO investement ? So it will be the same investing 0.1 BTC or 1 BTC or 10 BTC ?
It means that if you donate X bitcoins at any point of the ICO, then at the end of the ICO you will be issued an amount of Lisk that is worth X bitcoins. |
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Major Chinese Exchanges: China Huobi (very big major exchange, 3M BTC daily - English link at https://www.huobi.com/?lang=en ) China OkCoin (very big major exchange, 3M BTC daily - English link at https://www.okcoin.com/) Other Chinese Exchanges: China 42 BTC China Bit Pioneer China BTC China China BTC Trade China BTC100 China BTer China China Bitcoin China Fire Currency China FxBTC China GoxBTC China RMBTB Hong Kong Exchanges: Hong Kong Asia Nexgen Hong Kong BitFinex Hong Kong Crypto-Trade.com |
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What prices people expect to see on this one?
Well if it becomes very successful, I think we could get prices close to ETH's price like $1, $2 or even $5 per Lisk. Things will be pretty interesting for Lisk once it launches officially so investing into the ICO might be the smart choice now. Since JavaScript is a very popular programming language, it could make Lisk move forward to new heights. Call me a cynic, but my personal opinion is the Ethereum price explosion is due to the recent Chinese government capital controls to prevent the flow of money out of China. Everybody in China is expecting an official devaluation of the yuan in the near future. This means you either sit around and watch your savings get clobbered or you move them out of China into some other asset. Cryptocurrency exchange is one of the current scams to get the money across the Chinese border electronically. See: http://www.coindesk.com/china-wanxiang-blockchain-50-million-fund/http://allcoinsnews.com/2015/10/20/ethereum-sees-growing-china-interest-focuses-on-four-major-rd-areas/There is no fundamental reason for Ethereum to be pushing $10, just as there is no fundamental reason for the current insane housing market in Vancouver, Canada: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-29/pretty-freaking-nuts-vancouver-home-sells-735000-above-asking-pricehttp://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-04/ridiculous-joke-abandoned-rotting-vancouver-house-listed-72-millionIt's all about getting on the Chinese money laundering gravy train. So while I am all for serious JavaScript code development in Lisk, in reality getting Lisk on many Chinese exchanges rapidly and going to meetings with businessmen in Hong Kong and Shanghai are the quickest way to reach $5 per Lisk. Lisk QQ Group: 377193016
Chinese Name for Lisk: 应用链, means "Chain of Dapps"All you guys out there wanting a clawback of some of these juicy donations you see piling up:
Stop trying to enrich yourselves and start demanding instead that the Lisk Foundation use some of the "extra" funds to establish an official full-time dedicated Chinese outreach branch.The main goal of Lisk Chinese outreach should be to get us listed on Huobi and OKCoin as soon as possible. |
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Ooooh the irony... Talk about Centralization of the Lisk Decentralized Application & Sidechain Platform  What's the irony here? I honestly don't get it. In my example, the OtherLisk coin is far more centralized (with one central dev and zero additional social / consulting outreach funds) than Lisk (with two devs and and additional $84K to draw in additional people). Besides, comparing the centralization levels of a software development team with the decentralized software product they create is comparing apples to oranges. Also, before you change the subject - do you really think the 1% founder reward OtherLisk your propose sounds better than Lisk itself after the analysis above? |
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maybe you can increase the first day bonus from 200,000 to 2,000,000....as they always say, your customer is your most important asset.
Donors are not customers. People who will put dapps on Lisk sidechains are the customers here. Donors will not make a profit during this ICO. Donors are not SUPPOSED to make money during this ICO. The point of donating to Lisk was to put a big pile of resources in the hands of Max and Olivier so they could improve Lisk beyond Crypti 0.5.5 and make Lisk THE major player in sidechains and dapps. Now that resources are being put in their hands to accomplish the goal you originally donated for, you suddenly want to take some of those resources OUT of their hands just because it is becoming a BIG pile of resources? That's greed talking. Get a grip on yourself. Stick to the original reason why you made the donation to Lisk. Profit comes later, as the Lisk code versions go past 0.5.5 and the open market rewards increasing capabilities in Lisk by increasing its value on the exchanges. |
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8,000,000 LISK for the Lisk core team.
The Lisk core team will receive 8,000,000 LISK
I hope that amount of 8,000,000 for core team also decrease when BTC ICO deposit increase (?) Everybody sees money on the table from a successful ICO and now want to grab a bigger piece of the unexpectedly big pie. These large sums we are receiving give the founders MUCH more capability and motivation to improve Lisk in the future and see its market cap grow by doubling over and over. Giving the guys in the driver's seat of Lisk this chance is MUCH more important than bumping up the donor's holdings by a paltry 14% today, only to see future growth stunted and perhaps not even double once. Look beyond your greed. Control your jealousy. Trust the guys who have put this together and give them some resources and room to run this Lisk ball down the field for a major score in the future. |
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Crypti Platform is MIT license, so anyone can clone it, call it something else, then start another ICO... perhaps it'll be a better ICO if investors get 99% instead of 85%
Let's explore your thinking here in more depth. So we've got Lisk, run by Max and Olivier (LiskHQ and Karmacoma). Ten days into its very-successful-so-far ICO, Lisk has an effective market cap of $1.2M - check the spreadsheets. In the driver's seat of Lisk are two guys who are setting up a Lisk Foundation to fund further development of Lisk after ICO. They are setting aside 15% of the market cap or 1.2M * 0.15 = $180,000 which is supposed to fund and incentivize additional efforts to improve Lisk beyond the $721K development fund. This 15% gets split into two parts. They are splitting 8% of the market cap to themselves as founder rewards, so they are each getting founder-reward Lisk currently worth $1.2M * 0.04 = $48,000 each. They are also setting aside 7% of the market cap tworth $1.2M * 0.07 = $84,000 to give to others as bounties and consulting fees after Lisk launch. And we've got OtherLisk, run by Blockchainr. Ten days into its very-successful-so-far ICO, OtherLisk has an effective market cap of $1.2M - check the spreadsheets. In the driver's seat of OtherLisk is one guy who is generously limiting his founder reward to 1% for starting OtherLisk, so the other investors in Otherlisk can increase their holdings in this coin by only 14% compared to Lisk. Blockchainr is thus limiting his own personal founder reward to $1.2M * 0.01 = $12,000. Blockchainr is also setting aside zero OtherLisk and thus $0 to give to others as bounties and consulting fees after OtherLisk launch. After Lisk launch, if Max and Olivier work hard to double the market value of Lisk, then their founder's reward holdings will go up to $96,000 each. Thus they BOTH have an personal bonus incentive of $48,000 to work hard and double the market value of Lisk. In addition to the $720K dev budget, they also have an extra $84,000 in resources they can spend on social bonuses and consultants to double Lisk market cap and achieve their $48K bonus. After OtherLisk launch, if Blockchainr works hard to double the market value of OtherLisk, then his founder's reward holdings will go up to $24,000. Thus he has an personal bonus incentive of $12,000 to work hard and double the market value of OtherLisk. Except for the $720K dev budget, Blockchainr has no other money he can spend on social bonuses and consultants to double OtherLisk market cap and achieve his $12K bonus. So...be honest. Which coin will probably get more donations , Lisk or OtherLisk? Who will have more motivation to put in the (identical) amount of hard work required to double the market value of Lisk/OtherLisk: Max& Olivier, or Blockchainr? Who has more resources available to double the market value of Lisk/OtherLisk: Max& Olivier, or Blockchainr? Are 14% greater coin holdings by donors of OtherLisk enough compensation for them to accept having only one core dev (instead of two), who is four times less motivated than his Lisk rivals, and has no additional social / consulting funds at his disposal to further promote Otherlisk? |
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So, BTC value of investors share does NOT change. However, the BTC value of the 8,000,000 Lisk for Devs share has gone up from $0 to $250,000
Investors have seriously got the short hand of the stick in this ICO.
Question I'd have for you is ... do you believe devs of a coin should be compensated for their work? If yes, how much do you think they should make? Right now every Lisk owner has $0. Nobody has sold a coin that doesn't exist yet. But let's say the devs share is worth $250K when the market opens. Okay, so the two devs make 125K (assuming they sell immediately, btc price remain stable). Or basically what a good programmer makes in a year or so. Maybe it's just me, but I'd rather devs make their money in an upfront manner by stating how much coin they are getting, vs the other way devs usually make their money (pre-mines, instamines, ICO manipulation). Nobody should fool themselves into thinking devs do this for fun, or they don't try to make money from their endeavor. The simple fact remains, if devs for a coin are active, ICO funds are used to market/develop a coin, everyone usually wins.... devs + investors (well, until whales do their pump/dump thing, but that is later on). Max and Olivier have done a hell of a lot of work already in putting together a social structure and a software tool structure for Lisk. They deserve good pay for that good work. Period. And I for one do not mind their being highly incentivized to get rich if Lisk demand goes up drastically. My Lisk holdings will go up by the same percentage factor as theirs after the end of the ICO and coin launch. |
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You could 'theoretically' end up owning only 1 LISK per BTC if there's enough money invested!!  You couldn't actually, as there is only 15 million BTC in circulation and the ICO has 85 million Lisk. Theoretically. I stand corrected... theoretically!  I love theoretical discussions. One always learns much at the edges of the possible. In a perfect world, all current BTC owners would donate all their BTC to buy Lisk in the next 16 days. This 15M BTC would "buy" 85M Lisk. So every person that donated 1 BTC would get 85/15 = 5.66 Lisk. Each Lisk would then have a satoshi value of 100,000,000 / 5.66 = 17.667 million satoshi. In this scenario a single Lisk would have a value in USD of (17.667M / 100.000M) * 422 USD / BTC = $74.55 . I dream of this day. From the daily totals so far, we are going to have to really pick up the donation pace to hit the above scenario: Day
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| Donated BTC
801
44
132
109
190
107
63
69
113
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LISK DONATIONS BY DAYDay
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3
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| Donated BTC
801
44
132
109
190
107
63
69
113
| Donated XCR
23.75
1.39
0.56
2.70
0.45
0.36
0.41
5.60
0.28
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Days "end" at 23:59 UTC. Because of delay in ICO launch, days 1 and 2 are combined and represent approximately the first 36 hours of donations. BTC donations are rounded off in table above. Actual totals at the end of day 10 were 1628.27 BTC and 35.5 XCR (counted as an additional 461.5 BTC equivalent).17 days to go!
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At last. Somebody more optimistic about Lisk than I am.
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