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11041  Economy / Speculation / Re: $500,000 per Bitcoin, baby. The math behind it. on: August 06, 2014, 10:17:09 AM
If BTC were to go to $500,000 in this era it would cause a catastrophic mining bubble:

   $500,000 x 25 = $12,500,000 per block = $75,000,000 per hour

   $75 million per hour would drive the mining to attempt to use 675 GW.  This is about 30% of all the power generated on the planet.

This seems wrong. The world electricity production 2008 was 20 181 TW according to wikipedia.

0.675 TW / 20181 TW = 0.003%

Quite a lot of energy but nowhere near world production Wink

That is TWh/year, not TW. Divide it by 365 day/year * 24 hour/day and his number was about right.
11042  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCN] Cryptonite | 1st mini-blockchain coin | M7 PoW | No Premine on: August 06, 2014, 08:59:12 AM
why did the bottom fall out on the price???

More supply than demand is always the only objectively correct answer.

But my opinion is that it was grossly overvalued for a coin that was only a few days old with major "growing pains" and I said so a few days ago.

There is also an overhang of one guy with over 500k coins mined from the beginning at very low cost (and whatever other ninja miners we don't know about)

I still think it is somewhat overvalued, but not too bad at this point. I'd be a buyer at 1500 given no further developments.



Do you think it goes back up in the long run, given the high supply?

I think there is some price where the supply can be absorbed by the market, if the coin continues to develop and begin to realize its potential for scalability, microtransactions, etc.  That is a big if, which is why the initial burst of buying was overly exuberant.

The supply is fixed in XCN but not in BTC. At a lower price the supply is less of an overhang.

If the price drops to something sustainable and then the coin begins to successfully develop, then the price should go back up.


11043  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCN] Cryptonite | 1st mini-blockchain coin | M7 PoW | No Premine on: August 06, 2014, 05:08:15 AM
why did the bottom fall out on the price???

More supply than demand is always the only objectively correct answer.

But my opinion is that it was grossly overvalued for a coin that was only a few days old with major "growing pains" and I said so a few days ago.

There is also an overhang of one guy with over 500k coins mined from the beginning at very low cost (and whatever other ninja miners we don't know about)

I still think it is somewhat overvalued, but not too bad at this point. I'd be a buyer at 1500 given no further developments.


11044  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCN] Cryptonite | 1st mini-blockchain coin | M7 PoW | No Premine on: August 06, 2014, 04:21:46 AM
uint256.h:16:19: fatal error: gmpxx.h: No such file or directoryIn file included                                   from cuda_mul.cu:48:0:
uint256.h:16:19: fatal error: gmpxx.h: No such file or directory

Install the development library for gmp. Exact instructions depend on your linux distribution.

11045  Economy / Speculation / Re: $500,000 per Bitcoin, baby. The math behind it. on: August 06, 2014, 02:02:19 AM
Sure some miners are better situated (cheaper power, cheaper cooling, better hardware, etc.) so they are more profitable than other miners.

You are assuming:
1. That supply of for example cheaper power (and other similar resources) is unlimited and instantly available
2. That supply of more efficient miners is unlmiited
3. That more efficient miners can be deployed instantly before even more efficient miners are developed.

All of these are false.

Looking at averages for the entire network is incorrect except in the static model where there are no constraints (time or quantity) on increasing capacity.

Sure in that toy model the most efficient miner just instantly scales up to cover the entire network and then the averages do apply.

This is also totally unrealistic.



11046  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: August 06, 2014, 12:32:02 AM
Miners tend to keep whatever coins they think will increase in value, and sell when they see the coin going sideways or down.  Botnet owners have little of no overhead, so they just dump like mad.  There is absolutely no positive aspect to having botnets on your coin.

1. I would like to see actual evidence of this as opposed to people just stating it. Is there any?

2. Not having a high cost structure would reduce, not increase the incentive to sell. The people who are most motivated to sell quickly are those with high operating costs (electricity, cloud mining, etc.). So this argument about botnet behavior is illogical in addition to unproven.



Re #2

Speaking for myself only, and note my name - when I get free coins on poloniex (via giveaway, trivia contest, etc), I sell them immediately if they have any aggregate value above, say, .005 BTC.  The exception would be if I had overwhelming evidence that the coin was rising in value.

That's quite different from running a botnet. A botnet might not have a direct operating cost but you still have to put time and some money into it. Whatever you get out of a botnet, you worked for it.

I general I agree with rpietilla though. There is likely to be little difference in selling behavior as a function of operating cost. Small differences are possible but not that important.

11047  Economy / Speculation / Re: $500,000 per Bitcoin, baby. The math behind it. on: August 06, 2014, 12:00:06 AM
In your E.g., I need to buy something on eBay for BTC0.10 so I convert $60 to BTC0.10 to buy my good. If the seller than converts the Bitcoin he received for USD again there would be no price (or supply/demand) consequence.

Perhaps eBay get's more people buying BTC to hold for future purchases, but why? If I can buy in BTC and USD and I get paid by my employer in USD, what's the reason for me to transfer to BTC? It wouldn't be more convenient. It wouldn't guarantee me a better price.

Have to agree, eBay adding Bitcoin doesnt change much, only those having Bitcoin already might use it at eBay.

This is my thinking of Bitcoin adoption:

1. cheap ASIC mining hardware
2. cheap secure hardware wallets for average Joe
3. over 10% of Employess worldwide getting paid in Bitcoin

I think first step getting very close...

Mining is largely irrelevant at this stage. Even with cheap ASIC hardware the average Joe won't mine enough to care or matter.

Good hardware wallets and getting paid in BTC would both be a fairly big deal. #2 is starting to happen. #3 is not even in sight.


11048  Economy / Speculation / Re: $500,000 per Bitcoin, baby. The math behind it. on: August 05, 2014, 11:32:01 PM
It isn't a wash for the reason explained earlier. During the period of time of the transaction and potentially for some time thereafter (if the conversion back isn't immediate) there is additional demand for Bitcoins. There are only a fixed number of bitcoins (about 13 million now). Imagine using BTC for payment on eBay (and elsewhere) becomes so popular that there are 13 million of these transactions in progress at any given time, and the average size of such a transaction is 1 BTC. That would tie up every single Bitcoin in existence. Because people want Bitcoins for other reasons, in reality what would have to happen is the price of BTC goes up so the average transaction size (in BTC) goes down so the number of Bitcoins tied up in this way also goes down.

The net result of that transaction is neither increase or decrease. It's a wash!

In your E.g., I need to buy something on eBay for BTC0.10 so I convert $60 to BTC0.10 to buy my good. If the seller than converts the Bitcoin he received for USD again there would be no price (or supply/demand) consequence.

Perhaps eBay get's more people buying BTC to hold for future purchases, but why? If I can buy in BTC and USD and I get paid by my employer in USD, what's the reason for me to transfer to BTC? It wouldn't be more convenient. It wouldn't guarantee me a better price.

eBay BTC acceptance is good for greater adoption but that doesn't lead to "6 figure clouds" price per BTC (in USD.) There's no correlation.

There WOULD be correlation if the Winklevoss boys get there investment fund going.

You need Bitcoin in ebay before you can start dreaming on 6 figure clouds. Once Bitcoin is in ebay, then you are into something, because everyone and their mother uses ebay to buy things and they would rather use BTC than get raped by paypal fees.

How would BTC as a payment option via eBay increase the price per Bitcoin?

You have to hold them for at least a small amount of time to spend them. Worst case, they're purchased, transferred, then converted back to fiat in a matter of seconds. Still, that's a few bitcoin seconds removed from the market. Supply and demand.
11049  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCN] Cryptonite | 1st mini-blockchain coin | M7 PoW | No Premine on: August 05, 2014, 09:01:19 PM
this coin needs a relaunch, with a different/better name and different algorithm, maybe cryptonite algo from cryptonote coins.(since gpu there is 1:1 with cpu), as its pretty obvious that this coin has had a GPU miner/s from launch.
Similar to doomcoin only worse , at least with doom the released the GPU miners relatively soon and fairly to all people who read the forum and also on the main thread
these a$holes refuse to release the miner until what they have the 90% of the supply ?  Screw this coin lol.

I deleted my quote after reading that within 3 months, the coins mined at launch will only be 1% of the coin supply and within a year, less than 0.05% . So it's not really bad.

The first day's mining will be very close to 1% after 100 days, but the mining on this coin has been messed up for a week (and is still messed up, maybe messed up even more now). Who believes that the hash rate has naturally grown to 6 billion from less than half that over the past 1-2 days while the price has dropped by more than half?

A week's mining will be about 7% after 100 days, not 1%, and who knows how long it will be until there is anything resembling a level playing field.

11050  Economy / Speculation / Re: $500,000 per Bitcoin, baby. The math behind it. on: August 05, 2014, 08:53:20 PM
You need Bitcoin in ebay before you can start dreaming on 6 figure clouds. Once Bitcoin is in ebay, then you are into something, because everyone and their mother uses ebay to buy things and they would rather use BTC than get raped by paypal fees.

How would BTC as a payment option via eBay increase the price per Bitcoin?

You have to hold them for at least a small amount of time to spend them. Worst case, they're purchased, transferred, then converted back to fiat in a matter of seconds. Still, that's a few bitcoin seconds removed from the market. Supply and demand.

Laziness and convenience would increase holding much more than that. If you get $30 worth of BTC for an item on ebay you probably just hold it, especially if there are plenty of places to spend BTC. You are probably not going to worry about exchange rate risk on $30. Ebay traders are not miners.

11051  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [BBR] Boolberry: Privacy and Security - Guaranteed[Bittrex/Poloniex]GPU Released on: August 05, 2014, 08:45:29 PM
You can see smooth posted earlier in this thread although not sure why he wanted Christian to keep the miner private.

I don't want him to keep the miner private. I have no position on the matter at all. It's his business, entirely. 

I do think it is better for a coin to try to level the playing field on mining to some extent, which is why we created open source GPU miner bounties early on for XMR. The nv bounty produced results and although the ati miner didn't, we got lucky in that claymore released his miner. It is not open source but at least it is public (with a small fee). Not ideal, but better than private.

So if you are asking me if I think it would be better for BBR if he released his miner, the answer is yes (and it would have been even better had he released it much earlier). However, I have no say in that and neither does anyone else.



11052  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [BBR] Boolberry: Privacy and Security - Guaranteed[Bittrex/Poloniex]GPU Released on: August 05, 2014, 12:30:31 PM
how exactly did the open source GPU miner help the coin's valuation? right, it didn't.

You can't know that. Or more specifically you can't know what difference it could have made earlier.

The process of a coin getting any kind of following early on is one that depends a lot on bringing in miners. When there is zero else you can do with the coin (not even speculate on it much because the trading market hasn't developed), the potential audience is all miners.  And if most miners can't compete you naturally lose a big part of your potential early audience.

From the point of view of growing a community around a coin, 1000 or 5000 small miners is much better than a few big ones, especially big ones who are just going to move on to their next opportunity to rip through a new coin once they are done with this one.

Not that any of this is your responsibility though. It isn't your coin, and you owe the people trying to develop it nothing. You can and should do what you want and whatever makes you the most money.
11053  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: August 05, 2014, 12:18:32 PM
Miners tend to keep whatever coins they think will increase in value, and sell when they see the coin going sideways or down.  Botnet owners have little of no overhead, so they just dump like mad.  There is absolutely no positive aspect to having botnets on your coin.

1. I would like to see actual evidence of this as opposed to people just stating it. Is there any?

2. Not having a high cost structure would reduce, not increase the incentive to sell. The people who are most motivated to sell quickly are those with high operating costs (electricity, cloud mining, etc.). So this argument about botnet behavior is illogical in addition to unproven.



#1  Most botnets originate in broke, Eastern Euro areas where money now is more important to them than a speculative instrument in the future.

#2  If you receive something completely for free with no overhead, you personally value it less than if you had to actually work to obtain it.

1. I guess. But how long can they be broke if they're supposedly making so much money mining with no overhead?

2. It is work to run a botnet. I don't know the details of what tasks running a botnet entails but it has to be a naturally competitive market. If it is too easy then other people get into it and it becomes more work to successfully compete.



11054  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCN] Cryptonite | 1st mini-blockchain coin | M7 PoW | No Premine on: August 05, 2014, 11:55:59 AM
but the coin will not be relaunched, nor will the developer's design decisions be revisited.  Perhaps we can let the market take it from here?

You don't know that. I'd definitely fork it, toss the PoW and relaunch it myself if I weren't already busy with other things. If someone else wants to do it, it may happen.

It would actually be a bad bet to say this coin won't be forked. Whether those inevitable forks get any success is hard to say. Launch problems definitely help forks, but it is a question of degree.


My guess is anyone wanting to fork is waiting for things to clear out. with all due respect to catia's hard work, there are things still left to do with this coin.

That's what merging is for. If you change nothing but the proof of work, merging will be trivial, and could even be automated.



I am no coder but when you say replace PoW - wud Cryptonight work on this? I guess mini block chain from this along with bloated blockchain of Cryptonight = win!

Any of them would work. Replacing the PoW on a coin is, in terms of code changes, just not a big deal. They all have advantages and disadvantages though.

11055  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency on: August 05, 2014, 11:44:25 AM
1. We had a lot of fun giving a Git Crash Course last week Wednesday, and it was well received by all despite some technical issues with the sound. To that end, we've decided to launch a regular "Monero Fireside Chat" session as a way of both introducing the occasional new feature even before its announcement in the Monero Missives, and as an ongoing developer technical resource. We aren't sure of the frequency we'll do these, so we'll announce them as they're planned. Our first one will be this Friday, August 8th, 2014, at 9:00 EST (note: EST, not EDT) which is 14:00 UTC and 16:00 UTC +2 (aka FOST - fluffypony and othe standard time).

For US participants, this is Friday at:

10 am EDT
9 am CDT,
8 am MDT
7 am PDT

Alaska and Hawaii you can figure it out on your own.


11056  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: rpietila Altcoin Observer on: August 05, 2014, 11:31:21 AM
Miners tend to keep whatever coins they think will increase in value, and sell when they see the coin going sideways or down.  Botnet owners have little of no overhead, so they just dump like mad.  There is absolutely no positive aspect to having botnets on your coin.

1. I would like to see actual evidence of this as opposed to people just stating it. Is there any?

2. Not having a high cost structure would reduce, not increase the incentive to sell. The people who are most motivated to sell quickly are those with high operating costs (electricity, cloud mining, etc.). So this argument about botnet behavior is illogical in addition to unproven.

11057  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCN] Cryptonite | 1st mini-blockchain coin | M7 PoW | No Premine on: August 05, 2014, 09:25:50 AM
I'm trying to send using cryptonited, but I get this error:
error: {"code":-3,"message":"Invalid amount, too short"}
cryptonited sendtoaddress CS7BStDpSWvixRS99T3Twp9zQUBaA9mqKG 10

You have to put a decimal point and a whole bunch of zeros (keep adding them until it works -- you will get different error messages) and the letters ep at the end. I have no idea why.

11058  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][XCN] Cryptonite | 1st mini-blockchain coin | M7 PoW | No Premine on: August 05, 2014, 08:52:43 AM
but the coin will not be relaunched, nor will the developer's design decisions be revisited.  Perhaps we can let the market take it from here?

You don't know that. I'd definitely fork it, toss the PoW and relaunch it myself if I weren't already busy with other things. If someone else wants to do it, it may happen.

It would actually be a bad bet to say this coin won't be forked. Whether those inevitable forks get any success is hard to say. Launch problems definitely help forks, but it is a question of degree.


My guess is anyone wanting to fork is waiting for things to clear out. with all due respect to catia's hard work, there are things still left to do with this coin.

That's what merging is for. If you change nothing but the proof of work, merging will be trivial, and could even be automated.


11059  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [BBR] Boolberry: Privacy and Security - Guaranteed[Bittrex/Poloniex]GPU Released on: August 05, 2014, 08:48:37 AM
We sold off the majority of what we mined to cover operating costs, to limit risk and to secure profits - making us no different from any
most other miners.

There is a widely held perception that small miners don't sell off the majority of what they mine. I have no idea if it is true, but it explains a lot of the disapproval and suspicion of large miners be they farms, botnets, etc.


11060  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [XMR] Monero - A secure, private, untraceable cryptocurrency on: August 05, 2014, 08:24:41 AM
I'm using latest daemon for 50 days already. And thats 3rd time when blockchain is corrupted. Always after restart of PC and/or after daemon was offline for some hours.

PS: Wish I knew what is the common thing between dota and monero :S


Probably daemon crashing when you shutting down PC, try to run "exit" in a daemon CLI before restart.
Well, last night the PC has crashed... nothing I can do about it once a month its crashing. Probably running daemon which uses 3GB ram is the reason Sad

Run a RAM test. Replace the bad module if that's what it is. Bad RAM would definitely explain corruption of your blockchain.

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