[BBR] Boolberry: Privacy and Security - Guaranteed Since 2014

[sonoIO]

I'm new in this thread, but I have been watching and investing in Monero for several months.

Now that I have studied Boolberry a bit, I am puzzled as to why the price of BBR is less than a tenth the price of XMR. There are actually a couple of features of BBR that I think have advantages over XMR. It seem to me that the prices probably should be closer to parity.

I guess it is a bit weird to ask this here, but is there something I'm missing that has led to this big price difference?

I might buy some BBR if I can wrap my wits around this discrepancy.

Just recently dga gave perspective to the relevant events regarding private GPU miner - which is putting instamine FUD to the rest.

Same rules apply to people bashing BBR. Tainting it because of christian developing a private miner?

I think they likely to be quite different. My last post estimated that roughly 2% of XMR coins were mined before the public miner was un-de-optimzied. What is corresponding percentage of BBR coins? Since the emission curve is reasonable I still don't think the number is that large (compared to absurdly instamined coins -- and shills for these coins on this thread you know who you are) but it still may be higher than XMR. Or perhaps not. I haven't really been following it so I don't know.

They're surprisingly similar in terms of %age.  The gap for the de-optimized miner vs a GPU miner was larger (20x gap vs 5x gap), but as we all know, it's easier to bring more GPUs to bear on mining unless you have a botnet.  Boolberry is currently around 5% mined, and it's had a public GPU miner for several weeks.  The timeline for the un-de-optimization can be read pretty clearly from the git commit history on bitmonero:

https://github.com/monero-project/bitmonero/commits/master/src/crypto/slow-hash.c

Block 1 was mined at 2014-04-18 10:49:53, and Noodle's first optimization was committed into the repository on May 7, but recall that those initial optimizations were still in the 5-10 h/s range.  The more significant one was May 21, and then the current-generation "hyper-optimized" miners came into play a week or so after that.

I think it's important to distinguish between "de-optimized" (which I'd say was the state before the May 21 commit) and "not yet optimized".  What Noodle got things to on May 21 was what a reasonable, sane person might think of as an implementation of CryptoNite.  The things that followed were architecture-specific optimizations, and we can have a separate fight about the degree to which devs should feel required to release vector-optimized code in a first release vs. letting the legions of optimizers handle it for them at the cost of some free coins.

This is around block 50,000 in the XMR blockchain.

mbk's GPU miner for Boolberry was released July 19:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=693118.msg7928171#msg7928171

This is around block 45,000 in the BBR blockchain.

That's frighteningly similar, all things considered.  I hadn't actually done that analysis before -- interesting.

I think it's worth differentiating "unfair" from "the @*ing dev cheated".  I'm not entirely sure why I feel so strongly about this, but I do -- I think it's because it destroys any trust I'd have in the developers, and when you're dealing with *money*, it's important to have a dev team you can trust -- otherwise, what else did they hide in the code that you haven't had a chance to find yet?

I'm pretty convinced that neither the XMR or Boolberry devs cheated in this way.  I'm also pretty convinced that the Bytecoin devs did:  that code was so de-optimized it was a joke, and I think that all of us who touched it concur.  But it's not the XMR team's fault that they inherited something sneaky in the code and acted to root it out.  And the BBR initial implementation was pretty well optimized -- the things that otila and wolf did on top of it take work and are beyond what "the average developer skilled in the art" (but not interesting in to-the-metal optimization) should be expected to do.

[smooth]

Until recently trolls was spreading FUD propaganda about BBR and private GPU miner, but dga gave the chronology of the events. So, it turnd out to be only a FUD.

It was not "FUD propaganda" to want to look at the number of coins mined before reasonable miners became public.

I was frankly surprised at the similarity because I remembered the amount of time the coins were in this situation being very different, however what I forgot is that BBR has two minute blocks and XMR has one minute blocks, so the number of blocks ended up being about the same (and the coins per block are likewise about the same).

I think it is a fair statement to say that both coins had a bit of growing pains that in an ideal world would have been avoided, but the net effect ended up being comparable.

[sonoIO]

Until recently trolls was spreading FUD propaganda about BBR and private GPU miner, but dga gave the chronology of the events. So, it turnd out to be only a FUD.

It was not "FUD propaganda" to want to look at the number of coins mined before reasonable miners became public.

I was frankly surprised at the similarity because I remembered the amount of time the coins were in this situation being very different, however what I forgot is that BBR has two minute blocks and XMR has one minute blocks, so the number of blocks ended up being about the same (and the coins per block are likewise about the same).

I think it is a fair statement to say that both coins had a bit of growing pains that in an ideal world would have been avoided, but the net effect ended up being comparable.

Didn't meant you, that is why edited the post. Darkota and few other fanboys were irritatingly loud about this

[jl777]

I'm new in this thread, but I have been watching and investing in Monero for several months.

Now that I have studied Boolberry a bit, I am puzzled as to why the price of BBR is less than a tenth the price of XMR. There are actually a couple of features of BBR that I think have advantages over XMR. It seem to me that the prices probably should be closer to parity.

I guess it is a bit weird to ask this here, but is there something I'm missing that has led to this big price difference?

I might buy some BBR if I can wrap my wits around this discrepancy.

network effect, XMR was first to get established, also rptiela BTC whale seems to have taken a personal interest in XMR

BBR is superior tech, but until XMR blockchain starts bloating to where it is an issue that cant be ignored, BBR could be in second place.

I view it as similar to when XCP came out and was trading at a big discount to MSC. They had better tech, but MSC was more established at least as far as how long they were out. It was just a matter of time before it flipped

James

[maxcan]

our coin was hurt much by cbuchner/pttx private GPU miner(now we have open source GPU, it was released just more than week ago)

to be fair, it's probably better that he sells them as they come. it's a constant damper on the price but we'd have no future at all if he decided to just hold whatever huge amount of coins he mined!

[sdersdf2]

I'm new in this thread, but I have been watching and investing in Monero for several months.

Now that I have studied Boolberry a bit, I am puzzled as to why the price of BBR is less than a tenth the price of XMR. There are actually a couple of features of BBR that I think have advantages over XMR. It seem to me that the prices probably should be closer to parity.

I guess it is a bit weird to ask this here, but is there something I'm missing that has led to this big price difference?

I might buy some BBR if I can wrap my wits around this discrepancy.

I'm wondering the same thing - I'm really surprised by what's happened to the price of BBR and the price ratio against XMR.

[slapper]

There is interest and it is growing. I bet quite a few have heard about the whitepaper/audit coming which should get this resounding ahead in the near future. XMR's so called network effect is transient. BBR's price has been deliberately suppressed. I watched polo trolls bragging about dumping BBR at these prices to appease their fellow trolls and masters  

XMR's propaganda against BBR has really hurt this coin undeservingly. It is almost like the camp wants to ensure that this coin gets obliterated while they can surely tolerate scam coins which are based on the Bitcoin protocol, thrive and have valuation even more than XMR or approaching XMR. dga's post was a real eye opener.

How many have ever questioned core team member NoodleDoodle selling the most amount of coins in the OTC thread since launch of BitMonero? His optimized miners never made it to github until several days later and yet the mindless Risto army slanders zoidberg.  

Shame on some of the "core team" and extended team members of XMR who have been spreading this vitriol/nonsense nonstop on the forums, reddit and other websites. Others just took the cue from them.

Those who are collecting BBRs are going to be extremely happy in the not so distant future. Frankly Monero was an awesome coin for me. It just got polluted due to bad apples who didn't know how to handle the most amazing gift since bitcoin. If it were a corporation, there would be a couple of poison pills who would have been cut off long time ago.

It is upto BBR really to innovate and lead. Rest assured the word is spreading and it will keep spreading.

[wenjiannin]

I'm new in this thread, but I have been watching and investing in Monero for several months.

Now that I have studied Boolberry a bit, I am puzzled as to why the price of BBR is less than a tenth the price of XMR. There are actually a couple of features of BBR that I think have advantages over XMR. It seem to me that the prices probably should be closer to parity.

I guess it is a bit weird to ask this here, but is there something I'm missing that has led to this big price difference?

I might buy some BBR if I can wrap my wits around this discrepancy.

As for my point of view there are reasons:
1. we have a lack of marketing compared with Monero
2. our coin was hurt much by cbuchner/pttx private GPU miner(now we have open source GPU, it was released just more than week ago)

and yes, Monero was launched first and after "revolution" it was lead by people who is well known here in bitcointalk, unlike crypto_zoidberg who was undoubtedly new person here

imho

I have been silently supporting the BBR, it is destined to be a brilliant day gas

[smooth]

XMR's propaganda against BBR has really hurt this coin undeservingly. It is almost like the camp wants to ensure that this coin gets obliterated while they can surely tolerate scam coins which are based on the Bitcoin protocol, thrive and have valuation even more than XMR or approaching XMR. dga's post was a real eye opener.

You haven't been paying attention. There has been no XMR propaganda against BBR. We have always said that BBR is a legitimately innovative coin that stands apart from the other cryptonote clones. We don't always agree on the technical specifics of some of the changes but that takes nothing away from the effort that has gone into developing them.

How many have ever questioned core team member NoodleDoodle selling the most amount of coins in the OTC thread since launch of BitMonero? His optimized miners never made it to github until several days later and yet the mindless Risto army slanders zoidberg.  

Good theory, except that NoodleDoodle wasn't even a team member at the time. He discovered the first issue on his own, as an independent miner, and made us aware of it. If he were a scammer he would have just kept that to himself I guess, but instead he worked with us to get it released and that collaboration led to him becoming part of the team. To be clear though, the official team was not really announced or even fully defined until Missives #1 which came a month or so later.

Shame on some of the "core team" and extended team members of XMR who have been spreading this vitriol/nonsense nonstop on the forums, reddit and other websites. Others just took the cue from them.

You are confused and misinformed. There has been no vitriol from the core team about BBR (as opposed to say BCN, where I would say any criticism has been well deserved, but opinions might differ).

[smooth]

Good theory, except that NoodleDoodle wasn't even a team member at the time. He discovered the first issue on his own, as an independent miner, and made us aware of it. If he were a scammer he would have just kept that to himself I guess, but instead he worked with us to get it released and that collaboration led to him becoming part of the team. To be clear though, the official team was not really announced or even fully defined until Missives #1 which came a month or so later.

Please forgive the reply to myself but I would rather quote and correct here rather than edit and be accused of some kind of cover up or deception.

After checking my notes, ND was indeed part of the original team (though as I said the team wasn't really defined as such), and my recollection was incorrect. He wasn't quite as active in some of the early discussions, but he was definitely a part of it. Still, if his intention was to scam he would have just kept his discovery to himself. He didn't. Instead he released his discovery and continued to work on further miner improvements for public release.

This is clearly off topic for BBR and I apologize for polluting the thread with it, but there seems to be a bit of XMR hate here. Guys, work on building your own coin (and indeed borrowing good ideas from one another), not trying to succeed by tearing down another one. That's what we do.

[jd1959]

Every coin with mining has inflation and the problem is that none of these new coins (including BBR, XMR, and virtually every single other altcoin if not all of them) has absolutely no use outside speculation so no population of natural buyers. The miners can either hold (i.e. speculation) or sell, but who are they going to sell to? Only other speculators.

Comments about "too much inflation" and miners "dumping" such are missing the mark. As long as there is mining in any amount whatsoever and as long as there are miners who are not full-out speculators who want to hold all of their coins forever, there are natural sellers (miners) and no natural buyers. That imbalance will cause the price to tend to go down unless speculators want to buy enough to push it up, or at least hold it up.

+1

I believe that multipool miners are the problem for all Alts, every coin they mine is instantly sold  on the market. They are the only interested in instant profit, not long term innovation and cultural / currency revolution.

Combine that with instamine + POS and you create a whirlpool sucking everybody down.

Hopefully BBR will mature into the real world economy........and create demand that isn't pure speculation. Call me a bag holder but what I've mined I still hold.....not only BBR.

And yes I'll donate to devs if they request it for further advancements, so far they have delivered the goods

[cbuchner1]

our coin was hurt much by cbuchner/pttx private GPU miner(now we have open source GPU, it was released just more than week ago)

to be fair, it's probably better that he sells them as they come. it's a constant damper on the price but we'd have no future at all if he decided to just hold whatever huge amount of coins he mined!

We were a team of four, and only two of us had the knowledge to run AWS farms. I never rented any AWS servers myself (surprise?)

We sold off the majority of what we mined to cover operating costs, to limit risk and to secure profits - making us no different from any
most other miners.

Our big scale farming operations are now pretty much shut down due to lack of profitability. Some of us still do home mining with 750 Ti's or other gear.

I still hold 15000 BBR as a long term investment.

[smooth]

We sold off the majority of what we mined to cover operating costs, to limit risk and to secure profits - making us no different from any
most other miners.

There is a widely held perception that small miners don't sell off the majority of what they mine. I have no idea if it is true, but it explains a lot of the disapproval and suspicion of large miners be they farms, botnets, etc.

[rentahash]

I believe if someone make an effort and prepare procedure for easy adding BBR miner software to BAMT, could attract many miners as well ...
After that wild keccak algorithm should be added to nicehash.com (dynamic sell hash algorithms) and help to rise BBR very soon.

correct me if I m wrong...

[crypto_zoidberg]

our coin was hurt much by cbuchner/pttx private GPU miner(now we have open source GPU, it was released just more than week ago)

to be fair, it's probably better that he sells them as they come. it's a constant damper on the price but we'd have no future at all if he decided to just hold whatever huge amount of coins he mined!

We were a team of four, and only two of us had the knowledge to run AWS farms. I never rented any AWS servers myself (surprise?)

We sold off the majority of what we mined to cover operating costs, to limit risk and to secure profits - making us no different from any
most other miners.

Our big scale farming operations are now pretty much shut down due to lack of profitability. Some of us still do home mining with 750 Ti's or other gear.

I still hold 15000 BBR as a long term investment.

Yeah.... And you still have not released your miner

[stellarman]

XMR's propaganda against BBR has really hurt this coin undeservingly. It is almost like the camp wants to ensure that this coin gets obliterated while they can surely tolerate scam coins which are based on the Bitcoin protocol, thrive and have valuation even more than XMR or approaching XMR. dga's post was a real eye opener.

You haven't been paying attention. There has been no XMR propaganda against BBR. We have always said that BBR is a legitimately innovative coin that stands apart from the other cryptonote clones. We don't always agree on the technical specifics of some of the changes but that takes nothing away from the effort that has gone into developing them.

Shame on some of the "core team" and extended team members of XMR who have been spreading this vitriol/nonsense nonstop on the forums, reddit and other websites. Others just took the cue from them.

You are confused and misinformed. There has been no vitriol from the core team about BBR (as opposed to say BCN, where I would say any criticism has been well deserved, but opinions might differ).

Smooth speaks the truth here. I have read much of the XMR main thread over the past 3 month, and I can tell you that there is very little BBR-bashing there. I hope that I would find the same here regarding XMR.

Thanks to everyone who answered my question up-thread. This gives me a pretty good idea of some of the factors and forces that are at play here.

In the end, I still have a good impression of BBR technology and the future of coin. So I will be arranging my finances and looking for a good point at which to buy BBR.

[darlidada]

our coin was hurt much by cbuchner/pttx private GPU miner(now we have open source GPU, it was released just more than week ago)

to be fair, it's probably better that he sells them as they come. it's a constant damper on the price but we'd have no future at all if he decided to just hold whatever huge amount of coins he mined!

We were a team of four, and only two of us had the knowledge to run AWS farms. I never rented any AWS servers myself (surprise?)

We sold off the majority of what we mined to cover operating costs, to limit risk and to secure profits - making us no different from any
most other miners.

Our big scale farming operations are now pretty much shut down due to lack of profitability. Some of us still do home mining with 750 Ti's or other gear.

I still hold 15000 BBR as a long term investment.

Are you gonna release the miner or are you waiting for the price to rebound ? FWIW I am just asking a question, I'm not asking you to do it. You do what you want to do. I'd just like to know so I can act accordingly.

[Lordoftherigs]

CoinWarz added Boolberry to their voting list.

The site compares the mining profitability of many coins.

You can vote once per hour.

http://www.coinwarz.com/voting

Great possibility to attract attention of average miner.

Vote vote vote !!!

[cbuchner1]

2. our coin was hurt much by cbuchner/pttx private GPU miner(now we have open source GPU, it was released just more than week ago)

how exactly did the open source GPU miner help the coin's valuation? right, it didn't.

[smooth]

how exactly did the open source GPU miner help the coin's valuation? right, it didn't.

You can't know that. Or more specifically you can't know what difference it could have made earlier.

The process of a coin getting any kind of following early on is one that depends a lot on bringing in miners. When there is zero else you can do with the coin (not even speculate on it much because the trading market hasn't developed), the potential audience is all miners.  And if most miners can't compete you naturally lose a big part of your potential early audience.

From the point of view of growing a community around a coin, 1000 or 5000 small miners is much better than a few big ones, especially big ones who are just going to move on to their next opportunity to rip through a new coin once they are done with this one.

Not that any of this is your responsibility though. It isn't your coin, and you owe the people trying to develop it nothing. You can and should do what you want and whatever makes you the most money.