1. Not official, but most influential leader - Wiki:

2. I didn't say there was. That doesn't mean people won't arrive at that directive on their own, or based on the most common doctrinal texts.






You're talking about early Judaism, not present Jesusism:


This leaves most matters of justice to their natural consequences, the law of the land, etc. This is also why I don't go around trying to offend people that don't appreciate my position. I understand that I've not walked in your shoes, nor you in mine.

"Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her."

"...because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death."

No religion other than Islam kills those who leave it, no matter how you spin it. Ignoring the problem makes it worse.

"If they [Muslims] had gotten rid of the punishment for apostasy, Islam would not exist today"
 -Yusuf al-Qaradawi, head of the Muslim Brotherhood

If you see the world so objectively that there is no spirit or soul or super-anything, two things occur:
1. You decide that those who see more than you can measure are certifiable
2. You miss your only shot at encountering that which validates their testimony

Really the number one misunderstanding we have is simple. God as Christians know god is "supernatural" beyond any rationalization. They have to accept that, as there is no Christ without the resurrection and vise-versa. At first we can only take the gospel on faith alone. Some, having done so, have grown and encountered God in undeniable ways. One textbook Christian life might be mundane, another swimming in the miraculous. You only hear "self-deception," but in my experience it is the opposite.

This puts us in the difficult position of trying to explain these things to people that have not encountered either condition, and who won't unless they can admit they're imperfect like everyone else and give in to the grace that's being offered. The funny thing about sin is that you can't stop. It's a mystery, but trying to be perfect is like holding your breathe. Who among us is blameless?

If you want a religion that's all about controlling people, look at Islam. If you want one that you can define for yourself, look almost anywhere. Is it really so hard to suppose that one eternal soul could be born among men, and lay down his mortal life that others might have eternal life, even if they don't deserve it?

That's ludicrous as well. Saying that God did something isn't an automatic copout, it's a queue to see how he did it. He made the sun come up and go down? Oh cool, how did he do it?

If you're Mohammed, apparently the sun sets in a pool of warm water. He knows, because he followed the sun to where it sets.

How did he heal a man's shrivelled arm, or chopped off arm, or cure leprosy or demonic oppression? Could it have something to do with the nature of the reality? Can that be explored? Yes and yes. Does it reveal something fundamental about his nature? Yes to that as well.

God isn't an end, but a beginning. Heaven will NOT be boring, by the way. If you think this universe has potential for adventure, just wait and see.

I've long held that those laws and customs were for a time, and they accomplished what they were there to do in history. Romans 8 describes best how moral law fits with Christianity,

Back up there.. Where's the verse that says he lived?

EDIT: We believe in a God powerful enough to raise people from the dead, even raise them up immortal. Living in a fish is nothing.

That sounds like something that fell under Levitical law.

I'm not sure what the goal was there, but it was probably both to force the man to live with the outcome and stigma of his actions, and most importantly to make sure that the woman and child would be looked after in the ensuing struggle. The society was already patriarchal, so to phrase it in terms of the woman being in control might not have been as well received. That doesn't mean that anyone would necessarily force the issue if she was unwilling. Many of the laws around menstruation had the welcome effect of protecting women, but you might not guess from how they are phrased.

Divorce, for instance, was instituted by Moses because at the time men would marry, and remarry, and remarry, but the women were still considered "his." As Jesus put it, Moses allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts, but neither practice was ever the way it was meant to be from the beginning.

Our hearts are not wired for our present casual way of thinking about sex, intimacy and relationships. You can only know the joy of complete intimacy joined with complete commitment in two ways: ideal marriage, and an ideal relationship with God, who knows your heart more intimately than you do. One of these relationship is possible, the other is meant to be an image of the other, and can be, but it requires a Christlike degree of patience.

For now, we see through a glass darkly, but we know God is far more concerned with sustaining the eternal things within us than with the perishing things of the world.

If you go to the View menu, click on "Show Console" and then switch to the console tab, you might get more helpful information. Or you might not. I'm somewhat new too.

When you are dealing with matters of eternity and infinity, parallel items are indistinguishable, but one realm containing another is not hard to visualize.

As a theist (I suppose), my God is, in a sense, internal as well as external. Everything is in Him, yet He is in me. I do not define him, but now I have begun to define myself as he sees me: I am in Christ, thus he sees only Christ in me. The multidimension/higher order/infinite/spiritual mechanics of this seem much more intricate and subtle, though. I suspect we don't have the language to fully convey it, even if we could begin to grasp it.

Science used to see the world in 4 humors and 4 elements, adding a fifth whenever it didn't jive. Our understanding has grown exponentially, from biology, to chemistry, to particle physics, to informational dimensions, to quantum physics, and it's only begun to get stranger and quarkier, leaving more questions than answers. I'm not against science, but sometimes I wonder if atheists (and their satanist protagonists) are. Why should it surprise anyone if we eventually discovered that the reality is orders of magnitude more organized than we though, but we can hardly tell from the present state of continual degradation that we see on earth? Were you to encounter counter-entropic evidence, it ought to cause you to question.

In closing, it's as much foolishness to say I don't know and I don't care as it is to declare what you cannot prove. (Yes, I know that goes both ways.)

I wouldn't want to follow a God that I can define, or who obeys my crude scientific assessments. I tried that before, and found something that is definitely not God. Don't test God, but ask him, and he'll convince you. He knows how to.

Not how I see it, but fair enough, you kinda had to be there. I'm confident that if I could write a long enough book I could demonstrate just how seemingly logical of a progression it was. That stuff is a lie, but also just real enough to be incredibly dangerous.

ktttn, I'll prayerfully ponder whether there's anything more I can say or do to express the deepest sense of truth and joy I've found in Christ, hoping to maybe somehow kindle your hope.  AB&C are the textbook hangups for satanists, but you're likewise one of the least abrasive and most grounded ones I've encountered.  Not to flatter, but its true. And I'm no intellectual rockstar (you should meet my pastor), just walked enough hot coals to appreciate the soothing water I find holding me up as I walk with my saviour. Also I find nothing patriarchal in that I am a part of the bride of Christ.

I seriously don't have time to get into what's wrong with every single sentence you just wrote, but they don't jive with what makes me tick.

I was a post-atheist, progressive, Taoist, channelling, divining, manifesting OOB junky and was delivered in one day. With no pressure from anyone, just a crack in the door when I let Jesus in. I dropped every worthless thing at his feet, and he changed my heart for the better that day, thank God. I had been a wreck. That trash was destroying me, and you know what led me to it all? Indiscriminate curiosity and that drive to see behind the veil. God has an answer to that. The enemy answers it with a million ego-inflating lies, and it leads to ruin. That's my truth. If I said differently, I'd be lying, pretending, trying to fit in. I can't do that.

a) Jesus was a He, and most fathers are.
b) I'll talk about him in the way that he revealed himself. Sorry, no cheating.
c) I'm claiming matter of factly that I am utterly convinced of what God has done, and you'd need a pretty whacked conspiracy theory or two to explain away any one case. Of course that isn't going to convince you. It's foolishness.

EDIT: Also, goodnight.

Planting seeds is pretty special.


I hope you don't think that was my point. You certainly can't say I've ignored you

Perhaps you're even too sharp for me. Frankly, I'm exhausted.


Oh goodness, no. Even the premise is off, there. I've been around the block, I'd never go back, and I've yet to hear a new idea here.

If I'm dogmatic, it's because I'm convinced. If I'm religious, it's a byproduct of that.


Lest we get into a game of verbal battleship citing gnostic texts and satanic bibles that each of us may or may not have read, I'm happy to just say "No, thanks."

I'm still not sure what you think it is I'm rejecting...? God can be presented in a reasonable and scholarly way, and declared in the most foolish. Both are effective and both serve his purposes.

Man shall not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of God..

There are many things we can learn, many blessings he has for those who seek. Again, these are not necessary for salvation, just perks for the walk, but that's what it is for me now: Walking with God, by the spirit, not striving, yet being taught, praying, trusting, and He is faithful, even with the small things. I've lost track of how many times he has answered the prayers of my heart in ways I could not expect or imagine were possible, other times he has done exactly what he has shown me he would do, and shown his timing to be so immaculate that it leaves no doubt. I've witnessed the impossible, and seen the unseen, It's my every day life, but does it not sound like foolishness?

All this even though I spent (wasted?) a decade questioning whether there was a god, or who was behind the curtain. Ask him. He'll show you. That's all I've got.

Touche indeed.


No, but you'll notice that the very prophecies that they so despised were still recorded and preserved as such for your contemporary reading pleasure. The system of review and "checksums" that the scribes were subject to in preserving the material did not leave room for editorial except to add figures to aid pronunciation as the languages developed. You might be fascinated to learn of the incredible amount of pressure they were under to keep accurate reproductions.

They form encapsulated packets of divine inspiration, sealed and hashed, as it were, in a blockchain of widely published scripture.

Also, IMHO, any divine inspiration should be checked against Jesus own words.

"Da Jewz blew it?" I quoted Romans 11 just to highlight the more sublime aspects of it. I didn't write it.

Salvation came to the Jews first, the elect among them who would believe. The elders rejected Jesus because of pride, at least most did. And we're back to Nicodemus.

All of this was called in advance, in the verses I showed you from Isaiah. If you want to dispute that, fine, but I'm about done for today.


Good point, but killing false prophets was the law. Their killing of the prophets that criticised them was a hidden shame that God has reacted to. Strongly.

Read my previous post. God did exactly what He said he would do.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." - Jesus

No, that IS the answer. Preaching = anecdotal = foolishness > wisdom of man.

If I must spell it out, I'm at your service.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The gospel means redemption to those who believe it, but is completely unnecessary foolishness to those who see no need for redemption, don't see their sin (despite the law), or even equate themselves with God,

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

Refers to Isaiah, written before Christ, "Therefore once more I will astound these people with wonder upon wonder; the wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will vanish."

The context is of God lecturing the religious:

The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught."

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

For all the astonishing things God had done for the Hebrew people, they loved their traditions and ego-boosting positions more than Him. He'd rather pour himself out among those who would be grateful.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

The stumblingblock refers again to Isaiah, which Jesus adds to here: [43] "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. [44] Anyone who falls on this stone will be broken to pieces; anyone on whom it falls will be crushed." - Mat 21:43-44 NIV

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men." Corinthians, 18-25, KJV.

This leads us to the doctrine of election, referred to with great consistency in the NT, which is too often mangled by the likes of Westboro as though we weren't on the hook to preach to "every creature."



EDIT: It is tedious, isn't it? If I miss a point it's not avoidance, just either missed it or don't have the time.

You seem to have been asserting that Almighty God don't Need no Stinkin' Scrolls. Well no, and he doesn't "need" anyone or anything either. Is he not also free to chose sovereignly which way to go about something, or should he check with you first, to make sure it's what you're expecting?

Without a written record, any testimony of God is strictly anecdotal, and can be dismissed as foolishness. Even that which was written was dismissed when it was inconvenient. There are times and places for both.

"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."


That's not quite what I said, is it?


Brain exercise: How could something eternal be seen in the temporal?
IMHO, Spirit is exactly that duality which can make the leap, so to speak.

Can it be done?

You said it yourself, you are predisposed to that conclusion in my case, because I will not validate your mundane concept of deity.

"My satanism redefines deity into something so radically mundane as to render sacredness itself common. Of course, I maintain that this redefinition is needed for any valid discussion of god to be more than a creepy, overmedicated set of empty quotes and salesmanship of snipehunting gear."

If nothing can ever possibly be sacred to you, then we can only miscommunicate. Let it be.


MORE:

He can show himself at will. He does it all the time. You suppose he's doing it wrongly, or inadequately, on the premise that you understand the very role of mankind in eternity better than he does.

You also seem to enshrine faith beyond any religious person I've known... Faith itself  is not what saves you. Jesus is. It requires a leap of faith to trust that his forgiveness is for you and that his resurrection can be yours.


Faith was not a concept in the Aramaic. The word was one with Faithfulness, as in "trust in one who proves faithful." Atheists frequent the term as though it were a free, logical wildcard with which to make fools of us. It's insincere and doesn't lend itself to logical argument.

EDIT "So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal."

Those "old fogies" just somehow miraculously happened to be the ones capable of accurately preserving those statements for millennia. How many civilisations on Earth have even lasted that long, let alone tested and approved prophetic documents?

Would you prefer that God strictly speak through plagues, partings and major events, while you try to decipher what he wants from them?

The red sea story could be said to foreshadow Christ, so could all the hebrew feasts, but none were so direct a prophecy as Isaiah gave. It also makes the point that one person, plus God, can change all of history to follow.