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Author Topic: Religious beliefs on bitcoin  (Read 22247 times)
neurobox
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June 01, 2013, 04:00:15 AM
 #461

That sounds like something that fell under Levitical law.

I'm not sure what the goal was there, but it was probably both to force the man to live with the outcome and stigma of his actions, and most importantly to make sure that the woman and child would be looked after in the ensuing struggle. The society was already patriarchal, so to phrase it in terms of the woman being in control might not have been as well received. That doesn't mean that anyone would necessarily force the issue if she was unwilling. Many of the laws around menstruation had the welcome effect of protecting women, but you might not guess from how they are phrased.

Divorce, for instance, was instituted by Moses because at the time men would marry, and remarry, and remarry, but the women were still considered "his." As Jesus put it, Moses allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts, but neither practice was ever the way it was meant to be from the beginning.

Our hearts are not wired for our present casual way of thinking about sex, intimacy and relationships. You can only know the joy of complete intimacy joined with complete commitment in two ways: ideal marriage, and an ideal relationship with God, who knows your heart more intimately than you do. One of these relationship is possible, the other is meant to be an image of the other, and can be, but it requires a Christlike degree of patience.

For now, we see through a glass darkly, but we know God is far more concerned with sustaining the eternal things within us than with the perishing things of the world.
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June 01, 2013, 04:06:38 AM
 #462

You believe a human lived inside a fish for 3 days at sea?

It was a mammal  Grin

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June 01, 2013, 04:14:08 AM
 #463

You believe a human lived inside a fish for 3 days at sea?

It was a mammal  Grin

Back up there.. Where's the verse that says he lived?

EDIT: We believe in a God powerful enough to raise people from the dead, even raise them up immortal. Living in a fish is nothing.
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June 01, 2013, 04:37:28 AM
 #464

Atheists are just as bad as religious people.

To say 'there is no God' is as bad as saying 'believe in my religion and follow my [insert your God here]'.

The only way to be is agnostic - 'I don't know and don't rightly care'...

"I don't know and I don't care" is the worst sin of all. Atheists are agnostics who wanted to know, and found out there is not only zero evidence for God's existence, there is no reason for him to exist in order for the universe and everything to come into being. Saying "I don't know, and don't care" is only a tiny step away from "I don't know, guess god did it."

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June 01, 2013, 04:54:24 AM
 #465

That sounds like something that fell under Levitical law.

I'm not sure what the goal was there, but it was probably both to force the man to live with the outcome and stigma of his actions, and most importantly to make sure that the woman and child would be looked after in the ensuing struggle. The society was already patriarchal, so to phrase it in terms of the woman being in control might not have been as well received. That doesn't mean that anyone would necessarily force the issue if she was unwilling. Many of the laws around menstruation had the welcome effect of protecting women, but you might not guess from how they are phrased.

Divorce, for instance, was instituted by Moses because at the time men would marry, and remarry, and remarry, but the women were still considered "his." As Jesus put it, Moses allowed it because of the hardness of their hearts, but neither practice was ever the way it was meant to be from the beginning.

So, what you're saying is, god couldn't give us absolute rules to follow, because he couldn't force us to follow actual moral guidelines, or didn't think that we would accept them, or didn't believe that the clerics and churches would be able to enforce them with an iron fist of absolute theology? And thus god didn't write down actual moral laws in the bible, but just sort of guidelines that were vague and palatable enough for us to accept? What other of god's biblical laws are not actual moral laws, but just palatable suggestions?

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June 01, 2013, 05:06:28 AM
 #466

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... Saying "I don't know, and don't care" is only a tiny step away from "I don't know, guess god did it."

That's ludicrous as well. Saying that God did something isn't an automatic copout, it's a queue to see how he did it. He made the sun come up and go down? Oh cool, how did he do it?

If you're Mohammed, apparently the sun sets in a pool of warm water. He knows, because he followed the sun to where it sets.

How did he heal a man's shrivelled arm, or chopped off arm, or cure leprosy or demonic oppression? Could it have something to do with the nature of the reality? Can that be explored? Yes and yes. Does it reveal something fundamental about his nature? Yes to that as well.

God isn't an end, but a beginning. Heaven will NOT be boring, by the way. If you think this universe has potential for adventure, just wait and see.

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... What other of god's biblical laws are not actual moral laws, but just palatable suggestions?
I've long held that those laws and customs were for a time, and they accomplished what they were there to do in history. Romans 8 describes best how moral law fits with Christianity,
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June 01, 2013, 05:13:40 AM
 #467

Indeed my christian friends mentioned the exact thing when I introduced them to bitcoin, and they were very excited about the system because of the bible's prediction of one currency and it seems destined to happen. Personally I think it's a great thing to get the religious motivated as they have a very large and widespread network and it's a great way to spread bitcoin to a larger audience.
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June 01, 2013, 07:18:15 AM
 #468

To say 'there is no God' is as bad as saying 'believe in my religion and follow my [insert your God here]'.
I'm sorry that your ability to use reason and epistemology has been crushed into non-existence. It must have been a horrible experience.
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June 01, 2013, 07:24:23 AM
 #469

Indeed my christian friends mentioned the exact thing when I introduced them to bitcoin, and they were very excited about the system because of the bible's prediction of one currency and it seems destined to happen. Personally I think it's a great thing to get the religious motivated as they have a very large and widespread network and it's a great way to spread bitcoin to a larger audience.

I like it!

Hashin fer Jesus - find a block fer God. Hallelujah! If you can get the moral majority to love Bitcoin you got it made. Throw in some apple pie and a baseball game and let's wrap this shit up!

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June 01, 2013, 12:40:10 PM
 #470

Atheists are just as bad as religious people.

To say 'there is no God' is as bad as saying 'believe in my religion and follow my [insert your God here]'.

The only way to be is agnostic - 'I don't know and don't rightly care'...
Agreed. Only sort of turned on its head. -ish
Acknowledging bald fallacy legitimizes consideration of it. Every time.
Both atheists and theists refer to external gods, Agnosticism is internal, psychological, deals with questions of knowability in terms of that argument.
This places the debate correctly, but does not entirely answer it.


When you are dealing with matters of eternity and infinity, parallel items are indistinguishable, but one realm containing another is not hard to visualize.

As a theist (I suppose), my God is, in a sense, internal as well as external. Everything is in Him, yet He is in me. I do not define him, but now I have begun to define myself as he sees me: I am in Christ, thus he sees only Christ in me. The multidimension/higher order/infinite/spiritual mechanics of this seem much more intricate and subtle, though. I suspect we don't have the language to fully convey it, even if we could begin to grasp it.

Science used to see the world in 4 humors and 4 elements, adding a fifth whenever it didn't jive. Our understanding has grown exponentially, from biology, to chemistry, to particle physics, to informational dimensions, to quantum physics, and it's only begun to get stranger and quarkier, leaving more questions than answers. I'm not against science, but sometimes I wonder if atheists (and their satanist protagonists) are. Why should it surprise anyone if we eventually discovered that the reality is orders of magnitude more organized than we though, but we can hardly tell from the present state of continual degradation that we see on earth? Were you to encounter counter-entropic evidence, it ought to cause you to question.

In closing, it's as much foolishness to say I don't know and I don't care as it is to declare what you cannot prove. (Yes, I know that goes both ways.)

I wouldn't want to follow a God that I can define, or who obeys my crude scientific assessments. I tried that before, and found something that is definitely not God. Don't test God, but ask him, and he'll convince you. He knows how to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elvOZm0d4H0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

To call science cruder than religion is to not visit the LHC.
To posit that the external universe is a He is to mistake the macro for the micro. You declare what you cannot prove, which is foolishness. If you cannot even begin to define reality as hod, you cannot follow it, you don't have any semblance on a grip on what to follow, besides some "sheep herder's social primer" to quote eloquence incarnate.

God is not outside the virtual reality if your mind. If I am wrong, I need evidence to tell me how.

Did you know that stem cells have been cloned? The religious implications of this from a LaVeyan standpoint are more approving than the Christian one.

Wit all my solidarities,
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June 01, 2013, 12:46:51 PM
 #471

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... Saying "I don't know, and don't care" is only a tiny step away from "I don't know, guess god did it."

That's ludicrous as well. Saying that God did something isn't an automatic copout, it's a queue to see how he did it. He made the sun come up and go down? Oh cool, how did he do it?

If you're Mohammed, apparently the sun sets in a pool of warm water. He knows, because he followed the sun to where it sets.

How did he heal a man's shrivelled arm, or chopped off arm, or cure leprosy or demonic oppression? Could it have something to do with the nature of the reality? Can that be explored? Yes and yes. Does it reveal something fundamental about his nature? Yes to that as well.

God isn't an end, but a beginning. Heaven will NOT be boring, by the way. If you think this universe has potential for adventure, just wait and see.

Quote
... What other of god's biblical laws are not actual moral laws, but just palatable suggestions?
I've long held that those laws and customs were for a time, and they accomplished what they were there to do in history. Romans 8 describes best how moral law fits with Christianity,
Its a cop out because youre using prejudiced terms, and quoting ancient fiction as though you had some way to verify it, despite it not meshing with any real world medical science aside from the secular mind over matter effect of the human animal.

Wit all my solidarities,
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June 01, 2013, 02:16:21 PM
 #472

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There is a difference because murder is a relative moral. I am still awaiting your absolute moral.
The difference is between the separation of the words kill and murder.

Sorry, we covered that. Your equivocation on "causing death" doesn't help you. It is translated as both and is the same commandment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou_shalt_not_kill


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You don't provide any evidence or argument but simply state a position.
Which is pretty much what you were doing, or perhaps I don't see your actual argument.

"Pretty much" what the difference is, is that I am providing evidence for my arguments. You are simply reiterated unsubstantiated opinions. The bible is proof of nothing.


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They are more commonly known as "laws" but yes, bad law is created every day and governments (and their citizens) allow it to happen for all kinds of reasons. Fortunately other clan/government groups decided other "morals," other law, should prevail.
So the strongest group decides?

Sometimes.


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I didn't think you'd give up this easily.
I didn't.

Simply typing a few words after my comments is not support of your argument.


The choice of papyrus as writing material was logical, and quite insignificant.

The choice of papyrus was insignificant? OK, I think we're done here. You're either being disingenuous or have no concept of how the bible came to exist in its current form. If you aren't aware, google "bible papyrus scraps" or some such and learn that the bible is really just ancient Mad Libs with scraps of faded paper. The debate over translations and missing parts have done nothing but splinter the overall faith. If 42,000 denominations arguing over who is "right" isn't significant problems then you would have no concept of what is significant.


It does condone a specific form of slavery, namely the payment of debts. The idea was if you could not conceivably pay a debt you owed someone you would work in order to cover part of it.

Religion at its finest: "the bible doesn't condone slavery, it simply condones slavery"
I don't need any argument here because you are arguing for my point. Thank you!

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June 01, 2013, 02:36:27 PM
 #473

You're not even listening to what I'm posting, I'm not saying he was a "bad" Christian, I'm saying he did not even believe in Christianity at all.

Evidence shows he was Christian whether you think he was "true" or not. He was a member of the Catholic church until his death, and neither of us will ever know if asked for forgiveness before death, which is all that's required to get right back into heaven's queue.

I agree there's plenty of cause for debate over his personal views on religion and I understand why religious folks would shun such a member of their camp. Perhaps you simply shouldn't have brought him up in the first place?

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June 01, 2013, 02:53:08 PM
 #474

To say 'there is no God' is as bad as saying 'believe in my religion and follow my [insert your God here]'.

Only if one doesn't care about the facts of mankind's shared reality.


The only way to be is agnostic - 'I don't know and don't rightly care'...

where "god" is defined as some non-specific creator...
theist: believes in god(s)
atheist: believes in no god(s)
gnostic: claims knowledge concerning the existence of god(s)
agnostic: claims no knowledge concerning the existence of god(s)

You are simply an apathetic agnostic atheist.


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June 01, 2013, 03:14:23 PM
 #475

Back up there.. Where's the verse that says he lived?
EDIT: We believe in a God powerful enough to raise people from the dead, even raise them up immortal. Living in a fish is nothing.

So you want us to choose which is more preposterous: Jonah lived in a fish for 3 days, or Jonah was dead in a fish for 3 days and then raised from the dead?

The bible is like a zombie apocalypse. Who knew 2000 years ago it was so easy to cure death? Left and right liches are popping up all over.

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June 01, 2013, 03:24:02 PM
Last edit: June 01, 2013, 05:10:25 PM by KeyserSoze
 #476

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... Saying "I don't know, and don't care" is only a tiny step away from "I don't know, guess god did it."

That's ludicrous as well.

I can't bear the irony...


Saying that God did something isn't an automatic copout

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com


Quote
... What other of god's biblical laws are not actual moral laws, but just palatable suggestions?
I've long held that those laws and customs were for a time, and they accomplished what they were there to do in history. Romans 8 describes best how moral law fits with Christianity,

It's nice you agree morals aren't absolute. Now if we can get you on a regimen of Promethazine we might make some progress on your remaining delusions.

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June 01, 2013, 03:31:39 PM
 #477

To say 'there is no God' is as bad as saying 'believe in my religion and follow my [insert your God here]'.

Only if one doesn't care about the facts of mankind's shared reality.

What "facts of mankind's shared reality"?  Religion? It's always been a part of civilized man -- that shared reality?  
What does "shared reality" have to say about god, pro or con?  Is the reality of god calculated by a democratic process?  If more men believed in god, would he be more real?
And why is this "reality," indisputably different for Ecstatics, accountants & Algerian criminals, somehow "common," and more -- "fact[ual]"?
Using words like "fact" is a bit wonky, unless you're absolutely sure nobody could disagree, and that's a nat'ral fact. Smiley
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June 01, 2013, 05:15:27 PM
 #478

To say 'there is no God' is as bad as saying 'believe in my religion and follow my [insert your God here]'.

Only if one doesn't care about the facts of mankind's shared reality.

What "facts of mankind's shared reality"?  Religion? It's always been a part of civilized man -- that shared reality?  
What does "shared reality" have to say about god, pro or con?  Is the reality of god calculated by a democratic process?  If more men believed in god, would he be more real?
And why is this "reality," indisputably different for Ecstatics, accountants & Algerian criminals, somehow "common," and more -- "fact[ual]"?
Using words like "fact" is a bit wonky, unless you're absolutely sure nobody could disagree, and that's a nat'ral fact. Smiley


All of this has been covered in the thread. Re-read it.
Religion certainly has not been shared commonly by civilized people, it has been shared uncommonly. Wiki the branches and denominations of people all over the world who simply want to say, "treat others as you wish to be treated," and then promptly ruin it with thousands of versions of "one true" preposterous dogma featuring a multitude of gods with oddly human qualities.

"Fact" is wonky, but this was covered earlier as well.

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June 01, 2013, 06:02:42 PM
 #479

To say 'there is no God' is as bad as saying 'believe in my religion and follow my [insert your God here]'.

Only if one doesn't care about the facts of mankind's shared reality.

What "facts of mankind's shared reality"?  Religion? It's always been a part of civilized man -- that shared reality?  
What does "shared reality" have to say about god, pro or con?  Is the reality of god calculated by a democratic process?  If more men believed in god, would he be more real?
And why is this "reality," indisputably different for Ecstatics, accountants & Algerian criminals, somehow "common," and more -- "fact[ual]"?
Using words like "fact" is a bit wonky, unless you're absolutely sure nobody could disagree, and that's a nat'ral fact. Smiley


All of this has been covered in the thread. Re-read it.
Religion certainly has not been shared commonly by civilized people, it has been shared uncommonly.

All civilizations had religions.  Not the same religion, merely a religion.  "Shared uncommonly"?  WTF is dat?  Learn to English.

Quote
Wiki the branches and denominations of people all over the world who simply want to say, "treat others as you wish to be treated," and then promptly ruin it with thousands of versions of "one true" preposterous dogma featuring a multitude of gods with oddly human qualities.

Wait, wait, what should i be looking up on wikip?  Try to pare thoughts down to one per sentence. 'k?  I'm just guessing here...  


You want me to wiki something about people wishing to say one thing but failing?  
You ascribe that failure to 'thousands of versions of "one true dogma"'.  
You go on to describe that dogma as being "preposterous" & "featuring a multitude of gods."  
The gods, in turn, you further describe as "possessing oddly human qualities."

Am i on the right track?  Now what should i wiki again?


Quote
"Fact" is wonky, but this was covered earlier as well.

No, it was not.  Why not give me a link? Wink

edit: tags
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June 01, 2013, 06:53:44 PM
 #480

I am seriously considering quitting this debate now, you have posited no evidence at all for your arguments, go on look for it, none! I'm also considering whether or not you are trolling me.

The only thing you posted _with evidence_ was a firm belief in empathy, and the neurological support for it, the link you posted to wikipedia only stated that there might be a link!

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Sorry, we covered that. Your equivocation on "causing death" doesn't help you. It is translated as both and is the same commandment.

ARE YOU SERIOUS! This is literally in the link you posted:

Quote
The imperative is against unlawful killing resulting in bloodguilt. The Hebrew Bible contains numerous prohibitions against unlawful killing, but also allows for justified killing in the context of warfare, capital punishment, and self-defense.

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The Hebrew verb רצח (r-ṣ-ḥ, also transliterated retzach, ratzákh, ratsakh etc.) has a wider range of meanings, generally describing destructive activity, including meanings "to break, to dash to pieces" as well as "to slay, kill, murder".

According to the Priestly Code of the Book of Numbers, killing anyone outside the context of war with a weapon, or in unarmed combat, is considered retzach,[2] even if the killing is accidental.[3] The Bible never uses the word retzach in conjunction with war.[4][5]

The act of slaying itself, regardless of questions of bloodguilt, is expressed with the verb n-k-h "to strike, smite, hit, beat, slay, kill". This verb is used of both an Egyptian slaying an Israelite slave and of Moses slaying the Egyptian in retaliation in Exodus 2:11-12. The Covenant Code and Holiness Code both prescribe the death penalty for people that commit n-k-h.[6][7]

Another verb meaning "to kill, slay, murder, destroy, ruin" is h-r-g, used of Cain slaying Abel in Genesis 4:8. When Cain is driven into exile, complaining that "every one that findeth me shall slay me" in Genesis 4:14, he uses the same verb.

Quote
"Pretty much" what the difference is, is that I am providing evidence for my arguments. You are simply reiterated unsubstantiated opinions. The bible is proof of nothing.
Show where you have given evidence, and I have not.
The most frustrating thing is your comment at the end

Quote
The bible is proof of nothing
I haven't used the bible as proof for something, despite the fact it is proof.

It's really funny though, you just posted something without making an actual argument, you just stated what you believe.




Quote
Quote
They are more commonly known as "laws" but yes, bad law is created every day and governments (and their citizens) allow it to happen for all kinds of reasons. Fortunately other clan/government groups decided other "morals," other law, should prevail.
Quote
So the strongest group decides?

Quote
Sometimes.

When then?

Quote
Simply typing a few words after my comments is not support of your argument.
Neither is it for me, then neither is it for you.


Quote
The choice of papyrus was insignificant? OK, I think we're done here. You're either being disingenuous or have no concept of how the bible came to exist in its current form. If you aren't aware, google "bible papyrus scraps" or some such and learn that the bible is really just ancient Mad Libs with scraps of faded paper. The debate over translations and missing parts have done nothing but splinter the overall faith. If 42,000 denominations arguing over who is "right" isn't significant problems then you would have no concept of what is significant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Testament_papyri

Quote
The New Testament has been preserved in more than 5,800 Greek manuscripts, 10,000 Latin manuscripts and 9,300 manuscripts in various other ancient languages including Syriac, Slavic, Ethiopic and Armenian.


Perhaps you are unfamiliar with how this works, but here goes: When a book is first created, many copies are made, then as these copies wear out due to the nature of the material, new copies are made. Sometimes, small errors may enter if the scribe is not particularly diligent, however the changes are normally so small and un-noticeable that they are easily identified.

Quote
Quote
It does condone a specific form of slavery, namely the payment of debts. The idea was if you could not conceivably pay a debt you owed someone you would work in order to cover part of it.

Quote
Religion at its finest: "the bible doesn't condone slavery, it simply condones slavery"
I don't need any argument here because you are arguing for my point. Thank you!
I'm saying you're using slavery as a buzz word, the modern conception of slavery, that is man-stealing, was forbidden by death.

However, in the payment of debts, slavery was allowed, it's not that complicated really. This form of slavery is not immoral, and even your empathetical system should have no problem with it. This sytem is much better than simply putting the debtor to death.

Quote
I think it is plainly spelled out in the bible passages I have already posted, among others. The central thrust is to give everything you have away and "give no thought to the morrow" while following Jesus' teachings. Here's more bible teachings greed is causing you to ignore:
All the verses you quote are warning not to serve wealth, not to make wealth your master, and not to make wealth your treasure. The protestant work ethic naturally leads to wealth, but if that is your goal in life, only your wealth you have missed the boat.


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There is no excuse for forcing a woman to marry her rapist. None.
Well, actually there is.

In biblical times if you were no longer a virgin, in fact raped, you basically had no chance of getting married. This is to assure that the woman doesn't just fall off the face of the earth. This does not force women to live with the rapist, only for the rapist to provide for her, this happening was common. By marrying the woman she has all the protections of a married woman.


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