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121  Other / Meta / SQRL: revolutionizes web site login and authentication on: October 13, 2013, 09:31:10 PM
Have you guys looked into this proposal of using QR codes for secure and anonymous logins?  This was theorized by Steve Gibson and the original white paper can be found here

A short video describing SQRL can be viewed here: http://youtu.be/ZrQboo3pA10

This seems really interesting and I think a bitcoin address could be used as a user's master key.

A user wishing to log into a website will be prompted with the following:


Wishing to login to an online service where an “SQRL” code appears nearby:
  • The user launches their smartphone's SQRL app, and lets it see the QR code.
    (Or a smartphone / tablet user taps it.  Or a laptop / desktop user clicks on it.)
  • For verification, the SQRL app displays the domain name contained in the SQRL code.
  • After verifying the domain, the user permits the SQRL app to authenticate their identity.
  • Leaving the login information blank, the user clicks the “Log in” button... and is logged in.
    (A bit of page automation could even eliminate the need to click the “Log in” button.)

Even though it is THAT simple, it is FAR
more secure than any other login solution.
(We'll define exactly what “far more secure” means, below.)

What happened behind the scenes?
  • The QR code presented near the login prompt contains the URL of the authentication service for the site. The URL includes a securely generated long random number so that every presentation of the login page displays a different QR code. (In crypto circles this long random number is known as a “nonce.”)
  • The smartphone's SQRL authentication app cryptographically hashes the domain name of the site keyed by the user's master key to produce a site-specific public key pair.
  • The app cryptographically signs the entire URL contained in the QR code using the site-specific private key. Since the URL includes a secure long random number (the nonce), the signature is unique for that site and QR code.
  • The app issues a secure HTTPS POST query to the QR code's URL, which is the authentication service for the site. The POST provides the site-specific public key and the matching cryptographic signature of the QR code's URL.
  • The authenticating web site receives and acknowledges the POST query by returning a standard HTTP “200 OK” with no other content. The SQRL app acknowledges the successful submission of the user-signed QR code.
  • The authenticating site has the URL containing the nonce which came back from the login page via the user's smartphone. It also has a cryptographic signature of that URL, and the user's site-specific public key. It uses the public key to verify that the signature is valid for the URL. This confirms that the user who produced the signature used the private key corresponding to the public key. After verifying the signature, the authenticating site recognizes the now-authenticated user by their site-specific public key.


This simple and straightforward SQRL protocol
yields a surprising array of features and benefits:

Anonymous Identification & Authentication:
  • SQRL ID:  Visitors to a website are uniquely identified by an absolutely anonymous SQRL ID. Their “SQRL ID” is simply their public key, described above, a 256-bit number. The same visitor always presents the same ID every time they visit the same site. But no two visitors will ever have the same ID. Thus a single website can uniquely and anonymously identify every one of their visitors.
  • SQRL IDs are both user AND site specific: Although the same user always presents the same ID to the same site, they present an entirely different ID to every other site they visit. There is NO WAY TO ASSOCIATE the SQRL ID presented to one site with those presented to any other sites. In other words, there is absolutely no cross-site coupling of identity. Users are free to use their SQRL identity anywhere and everywhere because every site receives its own unique SQRL ID.
  • No annoying account creation: Suppose you wish to simply comment on a blog posting. Rather than going through the annoying process of “creating an account” to uniquely identify yourself to a new website (which such websites know causes them to lose valuable feedback traffic), you can login using your SQRL identity. If the site hasn't encountered your SQRL ID before, it might prompt you for a “handle name” to use for your postings. But either way, you immediately have an absolutely secure and unique identity on that system where no one can possibly impersonate you, and any time you ever return, you will be immediately and uniquely known. No account, no usernames or passwords. Nothing to remember or to forget. Your SQRL identity eliminates all of that.

Anonymous Identification & Authentication:
  • Identification vs Authentication:  SQRL-enabled websites have only your unique SQRL ID to disclose, and it is useful only to that single site since every users SQRL ID is automatically unique for every site they visit. There need not be any username or password for sites to have compromised, lost or stolen. Your SQRL ID does not authenticate your identity, it only identifies you to that single website. Authentication requires the SQRL smartphone app to cryptographically sign a long random number and return it with your SQRL ID (your public key). Thus, even if a hacker were to obtain your stored SQRL ID, it is useless for impersonating you—even to that one site—because the private key required to create the signature never leaves your smartphone.
  • No keyboard interaction:  Imagine that you want to login to a computer at an unsafe location such as a library or a hotel. With SQRL, your login occurs without entering any personal credential information into the computer. You provide no username or password that might be captured by a keystroke logger or resident malware. The website issues an “SQRL authentication challenge” in the form of a unique SQRL graphic code. If you have an SQRL smartphone app, it takes up the challenge and sends the website a unique challenge response that can only have come from you. The website then logs you in when you click “Log in” under the still-empty login form. From the standpoint of that computer—and anything it might contain that's attempting to spy on you—you are magically logged in without your credentials ever appearing or passing through. Your smartphone's SQRL application saw the site's SQRL code, instantly identified you to the site, and provided cryptographic proof that the person who just clicked the “Log in” button . . . is you.
  • No “shared secrets” with websites:  Six-digit time-based authenticators are based upon a cryptographic secret known only (we hope) to your smartphone and the authenticating website. This allows the website and your phone to agree upon which six-digits will be shown at any time. While this has the benefit of always changing, it repeats the username and password problem of needing to always be kept secret . . . which websites continuously demonstrate is beyond them. (And remember, the employees of those websites do have access to your credentials.) Also like passwords, because they are not truly secure, you must employ a separate and unique authentication sequence for every website you use. If this were to become popular and widespread, you would soon be scrolling through hundreds of six-digit numbers to find the right one.
  • Out-of-band authentication:  In the context of an untrusted computer, we mentioned above how website visitors were almost magically logged in without touching the computer's keyboard. This is one aspect of an important security principle known as “out of band.” The principle is that it is generally more secure not to send all aspects of a secure communication through a single channel because the security of that channel may be compromised. Entering your username, password, and one-time password all through the same keyboard is worrisome “all in band” authentication. Difficult though it might be to compromise the security of any single channel, it is vastly more difficult to simultaneously compromise two very different forms of communication. Since SQRL uses a smartphone's connection to the internet, perhaps even a cellular carrier, it avoids reusing most or all of the local computer's channel. Authentication often occurs completely “out of band”, and thus invisible to any intruder monitoring the computer's communications.
  • No third-party involvement:  In this era of pervasive government surveillance and US NSA coercion, who is going to trust any third-party with their identity? Other identity systems and solutions attempt to “federate” trust by creating a role for themselves as a third party with whom you establish a separate trust relationship. Then the authenticating website asks that third party to verify your identity on your behalf. It would be one thing if there were no alternative. But this page, and the pages that follow, demonstrate that secure and practical anonymous identification can use an entirely first-party protocol while delivering extreme ease of use.

Secure and practical anonymous identity
authentication can use a first-party protocol
while delivering extreme ease of use.

The LACK of third-party involvement
  • The use of a third-party “middleman” transfers much of the responsibility for the management of your online identity to an external facility. In an era of secret national security letters compelling the disclosure of whatever the government desires, that's a serious liability (as mentioned above), but it can also be a significant benefit: If your smartphone escapes from your control, you need only tell the third-party to cancel the phone's authentication authority and you're immediately protected from malicious use of your smartphone's identity assertion.
  • This SQRL system concentrates ALL authentication authority into the smartphone. The benefit is that no one else has the keys to your online identity.  No one.  But the liability is that YOU are then absolutely responsible for maintaining the security of your online identity.
Ultimately, someone has to be responsible for your identity.
Should it be you, or someone else?

This is a serious issue that needed to be addressed.  Our solution is to provide the user with a conceptually simple set of tools to dramatically ease the burden of assuming and managing this responsibility. As subsequent pages detail, the system provides extensive cloning, backup, local password protection and reset capability.

Hold on a second . . .  We send the website a signed bunch of gibberish?  That's it?
Yes.  And that's exactly the point.  SQRL provides absolutely anonymous identity authentication (IA). Users are identified only by a random “opaque token” and each unique combination of user and website creates a unique identity token. Thus, every user presents a unique identity to every website they visit. It is up to the user and the website to then (optionally) bind the user's unique SQRL identity to a real-world account on the website.

For example, Amazon's account management might have an option to associate a logged in user with their Amazon SQRL identity. So Amazon would present a unique SQRL code on the account management page. The user simply snaps it with their smartphone's SQRL app and now Amazon can add their SQRL ID to their account. From now on, the user can login to Amazon anywhere with vastly improved security just that easily.

And it would probably work the other way around too: Amazon's login page would present traditional login fields and a SQRL code on the side. An existing Amazon user who is establishing their SQRL identity snaps the SQRL code with their new smartphone app and Amazon replies that it does not recognize the user. If they wish to create a new account, they may do so here, or if they are an existing user, please use traditional login one last time to associate their new SQRL identity with their existing Amazon account.

Defending against the dark forces
Why we prominently display the domain name BEFORE authenticating:  The smartphone has no way of knowing the website the user is visiting. It only receives the domain contained in the QR code displayed by that page. In the "Evil Website" attack (also discussed on the attacks page), a malicious website pretends to offer an SQRL login for itself (www.we-are-evil.com), but instead it obtains and displays a login QR code from some other domain (www.amazon.com) where an SQRL user may be known. The SQRL app always identifies and authenticates its user to the domain contained within the (human unreadable) QR code. So an unwitting user, who didn't know the domain they were authenticating to, would be logging themselves into a session initiated and controlled by the Evil Website, thus allowing the Evil Website to impersonate them.

Note that even in this instance, none of the user's login credentials ever become known to the Evil Website. The Evil Website only gets a spontaneously logged-in session (though that's clearly not a good thing!)

This risk can be easily thwarted, however, simply by having the user's smartphone first prominently display the domain name it will authenticate to only if the user first gives it permission. The user knows they are visiting “www.we-are-evil.com.” So if their phone asks for permission to login to “www.amazon.com” they just say no.

Trusting the app: Though it should go without saying, it's better to say it: Until SQRL support is moved into the underlying smartphone OS, and is then curated perhaps more carefully, users will be responsible for choosing and installing an SQRL client into their smartphones. As the SQRL system gains in popularity, it is foreseeable that malicious developers might create malicious applications to steal their users' credentials. This is not a problem that's in any way unique to SQRL. Any sort of identity or password manager needs to be carefully vetted before it is entrusted with important information. The standard advice here is to stick with the herd and go with the solution that's been most thoroughly examined, checked out, and proven.


Three Ways to Go . . . smartphone optional:
(And we solve the XKCD problem above!) Although the original inspiration for the development of this system was a smartphone scanning a QR code on a website's login page, a small addition to that model enables two more significant modes of operation: Simply make the QR code image also a clickable link to the same URL that's encoded into the QR code. This yields three ways to login:
  • Scan the code with a smartphone:  Using the model described above, a user's smartphone scans the QR code appearing on a website's login page and the user is logged into that site.
  • TAP THE CODE on a smartphone:  To login to a website ON the smartphone, when the visual SQRL code is also a URL-style link (using sqrl:// as the scheme) the SQRL app installed in the smartphone will receive that link and securely log the user into the site on the phone.
  • Click the code on a desktop or laptop screen:  To use the SQRL system on any desktop or laptop system, a desktop SQRL application would be installed and would register itself to receive sqrl:// links. (This is similar to the way an email program registers to receive mailto: links.) This allows the same solution to be used by users on their desktop that they are using on their smartphones. When any website offers an SQRL code the user just clicks on the code with their mouse cursor and the locally installed SQRL app will pop-up, prompt for their SQRL password, confirm the domain, and then log them in.

Practical Considerations:
  • Open & free, as it should be:  The component techniques and technologies employed by this solution are all well known, well tested, well understood, unencumbered by patents, and exist in the public domain. The entire system can be readily assembled from 100% open source algorithms, packages and libraries.
  • The chicken & egg problem:  There was a time before the Internet, when people asked: If there are no high-quality websites no one will use the Internet; and if no one is using the Internet no one will bother creating high-quality websites. Somehow it happened anyway. We hope and expect that SQRL login will be like that. Once we have established the required interoperability standards, people WILL create free smartphone SQRL clients—probably many. And as websites begin to offer SQRL login as a side-by-side alternative to the traditional username and password, SQRL popularity will grow. Why would anyone NOT use it when it's free, perfect, and just works? Users will want it because it immediately eliminates the most annoying aspect of the Internet. Website visitors will demand it and websites will soon see that they are losing visitors by not offering the instantaneous SQRL option. Now that we have such a terrific egg, it's difficult to see what's going to keep it from hatching, surviving, and growing.
  • NSA & NIST-free cryptography:  The recommended implementation of this system leverages several unique characteristics of well-known cryptographer Dr. Daniel J. Bernstein's (DJB) carefully designed twisted Edward's curve digital signature algorithm (EdDSA). In his extensive and complete papers (linked herein) Bernstein explains the detailed derivation and properties of his “25519” elliptic curve. Importantly, there are no mysterious constants or “magic numbers” of unknown provenance. Dan has a long and well-known history of fighting for cryptographic freedom. In 1995, while a student at the University of California, Berkeley, Dan brought a lawsuit against the United States (represented by the EFF) challenging the restrictions on the export of cryptography . . . because he wanted to publish a paper and associated source code of this “Snuffle” encryption system. The ruling in the case declared software as protected speech under the First Amendment, and national restrictions on encryption software were overturned. (He won.) Please see the Detailed Crypto Architecture page for full detail and discussion.

The following pages continue to describe this SQRL system:
122  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] on: October 11, 2013, 12:21:09 AM
Did I read that right?  That Ken said he would be able to deploy his miners for these color coins?  There is a reason why we can't use current ASICs to mine for litecoins and other altcoins, and end up resorting to GPU mining.   Are these Fast Hash machines about to break this rule?  I'd like to see an elaboration of this idea that you can use this technology to mine for other coins.. I've never heard of this before!

Colored coins don't need dedicated miners - it uses the normal bitcoin network....

killerstorm

Quote
OK, a bit of history: There were several implementation attempts by different people, but (as far as I know) the only one which has decentralized market as a goal is called BitcoinX. It is like the mainstream of colored coins.

People who started it wanted to create an organization of some sort, but it didn't work very well, and basically I was the only permanent team member.

So I worked on it on and off for about a year. (Since September of 2012, when I made the first prototype.)

Until July of 2013 I treated it like a gig, but then I noticed that BitcoinX isn't going anywhere (lead developer of WebcoinX which was supposed to take over development sort of disappeared), but there is a demand for this technology, but nobody is doing it right.

So since July it is, like, my main occupation.

Still, progress have been slower than I expected: I wasn't able to recruit more people, and I had to split my attention between two projects: WebcoinX and NGCCC.

(In retrospect, I should have focused on NGCCC. My hope was that we can quickly make a WebcoinX demo which will help to popularize colored coins, but it looks like colored coins need a robust implementation more than they need popularization. On the other hand, I previously had some bad experience with ArmoryX.)

So the currently status: we are working on it, it is slower than expected, but there is hope that something will be available this month.

Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, sponsors are willing to provide 200 BTC to fund development, so that's not a problem.

Quote
More details about status:

    I've recently written an article about the theory of colored coins, it summarizes how it works on the low level, but with a dry language. I also plan to write an article about practical aspects of it, like color definitions/asset definitions, trade, issuance and so on. Meanwhile, all this information is available in bitcoinX group archives, but you have to dig to find it.

    NGCCC: We have coloredcoinlib and CCoinDemo prototype, but this prototype isn't adequate, and I'm currently designing a new core. You can see preview here. Working version will be available in a couple of days.

    WebcoinX: The plan was to implement a demo first, and to improve it to make it work on mainnet second. Demo is almost complete, but there was no development in last couple of weeks. [url-https://trello.com/b/n4qoNDDI/webcoinx]Here's TODO list[/url]
123  Economy / Securities / Re: [BOUNTY] Colored Coins Development T-Shirt Fundraiser on: October 11, 2013, 12:13:03 AM
killerstorm

Quote
OK, a bit of history: There were several implementation attempts by different people, but (as far as I know) the only one which has decentralized market as a goal is called BitcoinX. It is like the mainstream of colored coins.

People who started it wanted to create an organization of some sort, but it didn't work very well, and basically I was the only permanent team member.

So I worked on it on and off for about a year. (Since September of 2012, when I made the first prototype.)

Until July of 2013 I treated it like a gig, but then I noticed that BitcoinX isn't going anywhere (lead developer of WebcoinX which was supposed to take over development sort of disappeared), but there is a demand for this technology, but nobody is doing it right.

So since July it is, like, my main occupation.

Still, progress have been slower than I expected: I wasn't able to recruit more people, and I had to split my attention between two projects: WebcoinX and NGCCC.

(In retrospect, I should have focused on NGCCC. My hope was that we can quickly make a WebcoinX demo which will help to popularize colored coins, but it looks like colored coins need a robust implementation more than they need popularization. On the other hand, I previously had some bad experience with ArmoryX.)

So the currently status: we are working on it, it is slower than expected, but there is hope that something will be available this month.

Also, as I mentioned elsewhere, sponsors are willing to provide 200 BTC to fund development, so that's not a problem.

Quote
More details about status:

    I've recently written an article about the theory of colored coins, it summarizes how it works on the low level, but with a dry language. I also plan to write an article about practical aspects of it, like color definitions/asset definitions, trade, issuance and so on. Meanwhile, all this information is available in bitcoinX group archives, but you have to dig to find it.

    NGCCC: We have coloredcoinlib and CCoinDemo prototype, but this prototype isn't adequate, and I'm currently designing a new core. You can see preview here. Working version will be available in a couple of days.

    WebcoinX: The plan was to implement a demo first, and to improve it to make it work on mainnet second. Demo is almost complete, but there was no development in last couple of weeks. [url-https://trello.com/b/n4qoNDDI/webcoinx]Here's TODO list[/url]
124  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] on: October 09, 2013, 11:19:38 PM
what about this?

someone already created ActiveMining_Test. It's still Beta and runs testnet, but looks promising.

Heh that was me who created that a few weeks ago.

BitcoinX is not yet ready.

I'm trying to organize a t shirt sale and all profit going towards the dev team.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=308085.0
125  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] on: October 09, 2013, 01:01:43 AM
for none US, are you willing to hand over your info to Weexchange which is in USA, in there FAQ, they are required by law to have your detail to do some exchanges, but others service dont require, but reality right now, bitfunder wants you to hand over your info, so therefore your info can be accessed by gov too,  thats what i believe and feel.

vote if we should migrate to havelock, 796 looks unproffessional, had hard time understanding how stocks listed there, kinda messy.

i vote havelock

I vote Havelock or 796. Any platform to trade on at this point would be great.

Why?  Have we not learned that a central point of failure is NOT a good idea by now?  The only answer is colored coins or direct shares.

Take a look at this regarding Havelock:

We have discussed with our lawyers our situation and options for us to proceed in setting up Havelock as a long-term viable enterprise.  We are now pursuing these options, but cannot provide a firm time frame as of now.  We were hoping that we could be more specific but this is all the information we can provide at this time.

It is inevitable that Havelock and every other exchange will eventually follow suit
126  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] on: October 09, 2013, 12:47:44 AM
I have sent a message to 796.com about setting up ActiveMining there.  This could be a stop gap solution until we could do a colored coin client or an Alt coin solution.

nice, please keep us informed.

ken, do you have funds stashed away to help along development of colored coins?
127  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] on: October 09, 2013, 12:41:34 AM
Ken have you considered this?

click: Colored Coins

+1

Enough is enough, it is time to get serious about supporting development of colored coins
128  Economy / Securities / Re: UKYO - Can US Members collect divs or "transfer" assets after 11/1? on: October 09, 2013, 12:39:59 AM
I'm starting to think the best way to respond to this farce is to trust someone outside the US to deal with my shares as a proxy.

Sucks, but what else are you going to do? Take a 50%+ loss?

Enough is enough, it is time to get serious about supporting development of colored coins
129  Economy / Securities / [BOUNTY] Colored Coins Development T-Shirt Fundraiser on: October 09, 2013, 12:33:13 AM
Repost from a reddit thread:

Quote
After the recent Bitfunder news it has become quite clear that central exchanges are not viable.

The whole concept of central security exchanges is counter intuitive to the bitcoin philosophy entirely.

COLORED COINS
is the answer. The closest thing to any implementation I have found is BITCOINX.

So how can those of us who are not programmers help? I propose we start a bounty campaign. Instead of just asking for donations I think a better way to gather funding for a development team would be through a tshirt sale such as TEESPRING.

All profit can go towards funding a bounty to a dev team.

Is there any interest in this? A shirt should be created that does not only cater to those interested in bitcoin denominated securities but rather bitcoin as a whole in order to garner wider support. Perhaps something related to DPR - or perhaps a very nicely designed general bitcoin shirt?

I am willing to invest $300 towards T-Shirts right now and start directly selling shirts for BTC if there is enough interest. I direly need help with a graphics designer for the design.

I did a quick run through teespring with a sample image and for a high quality shirt - selling 100 shirts @ $25 would profit $1.400.

Thoughts?

You can read more about colored coins from COINDESK

If you want to donate now to the BitcoinX team here is there DONATION PAGE

BitcoinX Dev Team: you guys frequent here?  How far along are you and how can non-programmers help?
130  Economy / Marketplace / Re: If you are a US citizen you basically can go F yourself - BTCT and now Bitfunder on: October 08, 2013, 11:55:48 PM
Anyone know what kind of verification is required?

I have family outside of the US that I can transfer shares to!

Guys, we seriously need to get on top of colored coins implementation.
131  Economy / Securities / Re: Identity proxy services on: October 08, 2013, 11:47:03 PM
VPNs are cheap.

You will also need some fake ids
132  Economy / Securities / Re: [ActiveMining] The Official Active Mining Discussion Thread [Self-Moderated] on: October 08, 2013, 11:38:00 PM
This is just sad.

I put a good amount of an investment into activemining - knowing it was going to be a very long term investment.  now it looks like we will have to sell at a massive loss just to move shares to yet another exchange that hopefully will allow activemining to list (and not potentially close down sometime in the future).

Color Coins - where are you!
133  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: 1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX on: October 07, 2013, 11:08:18 PM

-100 for quoting O'Reilly.

World Health Organisation:

Global Deaths:

Tobacco           5.1 million
Alcohol             2.25 million
Illegal Drugs      250,000


LOL - quoting o'reillly as a source!?  hilarious!
134  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware on: September 12, 2013, 02:07:34 AM
Soo...still no word on any verification if refund requests went through properly...?
135  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware on: September 11, 2013, 12:13:49 AM
Steamboat... you really need to make an announcement.  There is absolutely at least 10k worth of chips refund requests as when I was doing the google doc it was nearly complete.

136  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware on: September 04, 2013, 04:45:56 PM
The service fee has been reduced to 5%, which seems fair.  Thanks for the update.

Still curious to hear about assembly, parts and shipping.

Seems fair?  This is absolute bullshit.  Steamboat already made 10% on each chip order.  Why does he deserve another 5% for essentially filling out a refund form from Yifu.  Granted he will have to deal with all the paperwork but that was what he signed up for when he organized this group buy - total control.

Why was every other group buy organizer able to provide a 100% chip refund?

This is absolutely outrageous.

Another 5%?  What the fuck are you smoking?  He's refunding 95% of your purchase price.  That's 100% of the chip cost PLUS around 50% of his surcharge.  That means he's ONLY keeping 50% of his surcharge, or around 5% of your total cost.  How can you be a miner and be this bad at math?  Maybe a mutual fund would be better for you, no?

I redacted my statement a few posts later, maybe YOU should learn to read and stop posting your holier than though non constructive posts.

Was probably posted while I was posting, I left it up for a bit.  

My post is not "holier than though".  I'm just tired of people getting so worked up about all of this.  Everyone and their mother has been told to "not invest more than you can lose" in bitcoin.  Mining is doubling down on risk.  It's a risky business.  I feel like there is a core of mature, level headed individuals in these threads and a bunch of screaming harpies.  If everyone would gather all of the info before grabbing pitchforks and shouting about how "unfair" life is, everything would go smoother.  All of this other noise just makes it harder to sort out what's really happening.

No, was posted yesterday.  You seem just quick to go off on your recent rants - you are no better than everyone whining.  You are basically whining about the whiners and is essentially the same thing you hate.  
137  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware on: September 04, 2013, 03:37:27 PM
The service fee has been reduced to 5%, which seems fair.  Thanks for the update.

Still curious to hear about assembly, parts and shipping.

Seems fair?  This is absolute bullshit.  Steamboat already made 10% on each chip order.  Why does he deserve another 5% for essentially filling out a refund form from Yifu.  Granted he will have to deal with all the paperwork but that was what he signed up for when he organized this group buy - total control.

Why was every other group buy organizer able to provide a 100% chip refund?

This is absolutely outrageous.

Another 5%?  What the fuck are you smoking?  He's refunding 95% of your purchase price.  That's 100% of the chip cost PLUS around 50% of his surcharge.  That means he's ONLY keeping 50% of his surcharge, or around 5% of your total cost.  How can you be a miner and be this bad at math?  Maybe a mutual fund would be better for you, no?

I redacted my statement a few posts later, maybe YOU should learn to read and stop posting your holier than though non constructive posts.
138  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware on: September 04, 2013, 05:44:05 AM
Can anyone elaborate on how to go about this bit of the form?

Code:
Verification signature *
Please sign the following message with the sending address, and paste the output below. Do not include the quotes in the message. "I am hereby requesting refund of payment for my purchase of Avalon ASIC chips from forum member Steamboat"

Remember when you used your address to sign a message to steamboat?  You do the same thing.

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/3898/how-does-sign-message-work

139  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware on: September 04, 2013, 05:37:04 AM
The service fee has been reduced to 5%, which seems fair.  Thanks for the update.

Still curious to hear about assembly, parts and shipping.

Seems fair?  This is absolute bullshit.  Steamboat already made 10% on each chip order.  Why does he deserve another 5% for essentially filling out a refund form from Yifu.  Granted he will have to deal with all the paperwork but that was what he signed up for when he organized this group buy - total control.

Why was every other group buy organizer able to provide a 100% chip refund?

This is absolutely outrageous.

Totally not fair, in the first place you shouldn't mark up 10% and add another 5% if other group buy can give 100% refund. Next time you know who to sign up for group buy.

Zefir has shown some extreme professionalism, that will definitely stick with me.

Anyone know if Zefir had a markup?

EDIT: confirmed, he had a 9.9% markup and refunded it 100% - I would like to know why steamboat is unwilling to do a 100% refund.
140  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Liquid Synergy Designs Inc. -ASIC mining hardware on: September 04, 2013, 05:07:06 AM
The service fee has been reduced to 5%, which seems fair.  Thanks for the update.

Still curious to hear about assembly, parts and shipping.

Seems fair?  This is absolute bullshit.  Steamboat already made 10% on each chip order.  Why does he deserve another 5% for essentially filling out a refund form from Yifu.  Granted he will have to deal with all the paperwork but that was what he signed up for when he organized this group buy - total control.

Why was every other group buy organizer able to provide a 100% chip refund?

This is absolutely outrageous.

Not sure where the additional 5% talk is coming from...it's quite clearly spelled out in the update. It reads like half of the 10% markup is being refunded, so does this still sound like a bad deal when he is trying to operate a business in the real world and has put in unknown quantities of time and money into arranging the hosting and assembly? None of us really have a good idea of the financials on this, there quite possibly are costs that cannot be recovered at this point. So steamboat and crew should all go to the poor house because you want to recover 100% of your Investment. For god's sake there were people a few pages back saying we should get an injunction on his funds because he hasn't posted in the thread for a few days. As well as the (baseless) attacks on his character and intentions, trolls were all up in here talking about how there was a deadline from Yifu for Wednesday, when this was not the case at all. I feel like he deserves the 5% just for putting up with you twats. /rant off

Good point, didn't think about it in terms of getting 5% of the markup back.  As for the rest of your post, please don't associate me with being unreasonable/troll of others.  I have literally said zilch about any of this other than gather lists of people wanting a refund when steamboat was not talking.  But then again, didn't each other group buy organizer also refund their markup (not sure if they had a markup)?
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