The idea is good. It's particularly appealing for people running bitcoin services.

It is not impossible to tax bitcoins. The fact that they are traceable will make them taxable, unfortunately.

Nice feature.

I don't think they are the same person.
BCEmporium has shown in another topic to be of the same nationality I am (Brazilian), and, as expected, I find it easy to understand what he writes, while Baron writing is very weird to me.

+1

Baron didn't even know what the blockchain is.
It wouldn't surprise me if he thought that bitcoin transfers are 100% untraceable.

I wasn't "odding out" UK system in particular, it's just that I don't see anything reasonable in coercively imposed legal systems.

You might be right there. I'm not sure I would have taken such risk either.

My main point of disagreement is that you seem to be attacking him for having tried to make things right, while I think that, if he's proven correct, he should be applauded. If not, then it was a bad mistake, but not as serious as fraud/robbery if he returns the funds. After all, there's no agreement of "withdraw anytime" when we send him the money.
I think people deserve recognition for helping innocents, and so far that's what it seems MtGox did in this particular case...

Oh boy....

Yes, and agree with most that you said in this last post, it's a dangerous thing for MtGox. I said in another post that I thought MtGox actions were probably precipitated.
I hope he's sure the account really was stolen, and I'd like to see why he's that certain.

The thing here is, suppose that the allegedly victim is himself a scammer, like in your examples. Then there should be evidence somewhere that the scammer did sell BTC to Baron as he claims.

It's way too precipitated of your part too accusing MtGox of robbery.

Are you suggesting we don't know bitcoin is not under the control of state mafias?
That's the whole point of BTC, not to be easily controllable by governments... why do you think it's P2P in the first place?

And I see no reason why there can't be refunds in a business not controlled by governments. This whole story here may prove you wrong.

By the way, here you are again with this disgusting behavior of blaming the victims instead of the actual criminals. "Open your eyes or your eaten". Everyone has the right to have his eyes as much closed as they will, nobody has the right to steal from them.


Elucidate me. Why, just by operating free of state chains, a market operator that's apparently trying to solve a robbery issue immediately becomes a robber himself, according to you?


Maybe because he doesn't want to send a big "Fuck you" to his clients and want to help them? Specially if he has strong evidence that there was not such negotiation between Baron and the thief.
By the way, it was not just a scam, an account of his own site seems to have been robbed.


I can't be sure, that's why I've been asking for evidence since the beginning.
It's quite clear though that Baron contradicts himself in some of his posts, not to mention the difference in reputation between him and MtGox, what makes me have more trust on the latter "a priori".

True, it's not his business, he didn't need to do anything at all, yet he had something called morals and tried to stop this thief. And your action? You call him a scammer:


No, it doesn't make him a scammer.

Are you even aware that MtGox lost thousand of dollars to paypal scammers in the past? That's why he switched to LR that you criticize so much.


How can you be so sure Baron bought anything? He doesn't even remember the name of the guy who sold him more than $3000 worth of coins? No logs, no nothing?

By the way, @MtGox, another thing you could do is to check how fast was this transaction performed. I mean, if the guy transferred the ~3000 coins right after having done the login into the stolen account, it'd be difficult to believe that he would had already found a buyer in a matter of seconds/minutes. And, if nothing can be found on IRC logs proving that such transaction did indeed occurred, Baron runs out of alibis. Remember somebody here has all IRC logs...

Oh sure, I had forgotten that. Thanks. Will edit my other post.

It would be a better thing to do, but for that to be possible, his software should be able of doing this selective blocking. I'm not sure it is.

This is true, now that bitcoin-central code is open, somebody who masters Ruby on Rail could implement a PagSeguro plugin. Quite easier than implementing the whole exchange. And if you don't want to host the exchange yourself, I think David would accept to perform BRL trades in bitcoin-central.net, specially because PagSeguro can be entirely automated.

Finally some useful information about the whole story.

My suggestions on how this could be sorted out:

- "Victim" extracts some of the private keys from the addresses used to fund these supposedly 3 MtGox addresses that funded Baron's addresses.
- These private keys are used to sign some random strings.
- MtGox does the same with his 3 addresses that funded Baron address.
- MtGox proves that access to his site which made such withdraw were not performed by Victim. This is the most tricky part. Maybe by using his logs, crossing IPs etc. If the account suffered a dictionary attack that should be easy to show.

@Baron,

If you keep "not remembering" the details of your transaction on IRC it remains difficult to trust you. As an alibi, you may want to talk with the guy there who just said he has all the logs from IRC and try to get the logs which show your transactions.

----

There something weird though. According to what I read here, it took 3 days for Baron address to get fully funded. How come a thief who just happened to get somebody's password waits 3 days to get everything out of the account?
A possible answer to this is that the thief was afraid of transferring all bitcoins to an address of his and then tried to sell them for LR, and sold them to Baron, what would make him innocent. But, still, if Baron wanted all bitcoins, and the thief definitely wanted to steal the most as possible, why didn't Baron buy everything at once?
EDIT: MtGox withdraw limits...
Again, Baron, look for the logs on IRC. This could prove your innocence.


I'm starting to think MtGox action, even if motivated by noble intentions, was too precipitated. If I ran a bitcoin bank and somebody came by saying that somebody else got his password and stole him, I don't think I would take radical actions like freezing somebody's funds unless I can be very sure that the withdraws were not performed by the true owner of the account. But how do you prove such a thing, if the allegedly thief had the correct password?

Oh please, I can't stand this kind of thinking, "fuck the stupid victim, he deserved it!".
Stop blaming the victims, blame the criminals!

If he doesn't then people's trust on him could decrease, mine included. I don't know if he could be accused of crime, particularly if he returns the frozen funds, since, as people noted on this thread, there are no terms of service on MtGox.


I don't think it must be avoided at all costs. I think, for ex., that those Chinese folks on the video I linked you above acted better than police and courts would.
I am not saying courts have no purpose! Better make it clear before people misinterpret me. Take a look at my messages in this topic, I even suggest how a voluntary arbitrator service for this kind of accusations could work, in order to make everything more transparent and efficient.

So what that victims claim to be dumber? If A fraud a contract he has with B while B respects it, A is the criminal and period. It's pretty much black & white in this case, there's nothing to "equilibrate" there.
There's absolutely nothing wrong in trying to search surreal profits in short periods of time through voluntary means, as you suggested in one of your posts. There's obviously something wrong in not respecting a contract.

And I repeat that, if he manages to prove that he really caught a criminal, I will applaud him.