I don't think miners deserve 80% of the block reward, I don't think their contribution is worth 4X that of Masternodes. Not even close.
Fuck that ! I not sure you got any idea how much time, effort and hard cash DRK miners go through keeping up with and optimising mining software, buying and optimizing GPU's, buying power supplies, mobo's, extraction fans and RAM finding CPU's hardrives paying power bill's just so we get to PAY these bills, PAY 20% to idle node owners and in the end get a few DRK to invest for possible gain OR loss. we do it couse we like mining and we like the coin but like being told by someone as your self in the community we don't deserve the coin we get to keep ,, Na mate you need to get real well that's my bit there's plenty more but i don't want to fuck the thread up arguing with that crap any more. Uh huh, mining is such hard work.  I've mined DRK from 15 minutes after I heard about it, and I still mine it. By all means go mine something else, I'll keep mining DRK. What have you done with all that DRK you have been mining? Sold it for BTC/fiat probably. Otherwise you'd be running a Masternode, eh? Justify your usefulness please, or go away. Get lost i'v been mining Dark for about 6 months and what has not been cashed in to pay mining bills is still in my nice new DRK wallet you presumptuous CAPITOL **** Are you going to try and convince me that miners deserve 4X the block reward of Masternodes or just call me asterisks? |
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Darkcoins come into existence thru mining. And only thru mining.
Evan Duffield and team, and the whole Masternode concept had nothing to do with it? Just miners? The miners share a few of their new found coins with the masternodes.
Mining is not only about maintaining the blockchain.
Even if there are no transactions for days, it doesn't matter. If there are NO transactions for days, then THAT'S the state of blockchain that has to be integrated and shared for everybody to accept.
A single old Celeron can do all that. The amount of transactions (low or high or whatever) has nothing to do with the validity of mining. It just is what is.  What does that even mean? We have Petahashes of POW miners mining for Bitcoin because more and more people want to go after fewer and fewer coins, while technology combined with free market competition creates innovation. (faster and faster machines, which in turn make the coins even more scarcer and scarcer... which is key for value creation in the first place.)
Fulfilling a market need is the key to value, not throwing money at GPU manufacturers. If we only had masternodes... we would basically take darkcoin out of the most insane innovation cycle we have seen in the last decades. (If only servers had the innovation that miners have, lol  , but how are they going to have innovation without competition? Just masternode holders sitting on their piles of coins is not something that is very "competitive") So, the key concepts to not forget are: competition creates innovation which in turn creates scarcity (value). Ergo mining. I'm not actually proposing doing away with miners, but please explain to me what great innovations have come about through chasing pointless hashpower? The Darkcoin developers provide innovation, a bunch of people running up electricity bills in the hope of a quick buck do not. |
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The ideas I see amount to forming a private cartel for the dozen or so vocal members of the community, fundamentally changing the way a coin works to the detriment of the general user and betraying the philosophical principals of crypto in general.
And I see a bunch of people, who should be ashamed of themselves, agreeing with it.
I agree with you. Proof of Work is not just waste of energy, it is also the Proof that transactions really happened. I always assumed that Darkcoin was going to make the public ledger into an anonymous ledger (not readable by outsiders), but certainly not to make it totally disappear?!?. That would be disastrous. If we only had masternodes, and no POW, I am not sure that the integrity of who owns which coins can be guaranteed AT ALL. As I keep saying, you don't need 100GH worth of GPU's to maintain a simple blockchain with a few transactions per minute, or even a few thousand. Nobody is talking about doing away with the blockchain, we're debating (or at least I am  ) whether the contribution of miners is really worth 4X more than the contribution of Masternodes to Darkcoin. I don't think it is. |
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I don't think miners deserve 80% of the block reward, I don't think their contribution is worth 4X that of Masternodes. Not even close.
Fuck that ! I not sure you got any idea how much time, effort and hard cash DRK miners go through keeping up with and optimising mining software, buying and optimizing GPU's, buying power supplies, mobo's, extraction fans and RAM finding CPU's hardrives paying power bill's just so we get to PAY these bills, PAY 20% to idle node owners and in the end get a few DRK to invest for possible gain OR loss. we do it couse we like mining and we like the coin but like being told by someone as your self in the community we don't deserve the coin we get to keep ,, Na mate you need to get real well that's my bit there's plenty more but i don't want to fuck the thread up arguing with that crap any more. Uh huh, mining is such hard work. I've mined DRK from 15 minutes after I heard about it, and I still mine it. By all means go mine something else, I'll keep mining DRK. What have you done with all that DRK you have been mining? Sold it for BTC/fiat probably. Otherwise you'd be running a Masternode, eh? Justify your usefulness please, or go away. |
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Also, it's easier to fork a coin with 100% PoS as well.
How would you know this? Proof of Service != Proof of Stake. The whole point of the MN network is fast comms between them, which is what's going to make InstanTX possible. It's what makes Darksend possible. I'm seeing no way to fork anything without purchasing a million DRK to deploy another 1000 Masternodes. And we're all happy that's just not feasible, right? |
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The ideas I see amount to forming a private cartel for the dozen or so vocal members of the community, fundamentally changing the way a coin works to the detriment of the general user and betraying the philosophical principals of crypto in general.
And I see a bunch of people, who should be ashamed of themselves, agreeing with it.
Bollocks. The 'general user' doesn't care and the what principles of crypto are you talking about exactly? That miners have some god-given right to the cosmic money hose? My proposal is that we have Masternodes running p2pool nodes and miners mine on the Masternode network and nowhere else. Solves the 51% threat, eliminates the need for 'enforcing' MN service fees, and ensures decentralisation. 50/50 split between MNs and miners, with miners who leave a balance on the MNP2pool earning a pro-rata cut of the MN reward as well, and meaning that as long as the total MNP2pool node balance is >1000DRK, the MN op can take out some or all of his initial 1000DRK and set up further MNs... I don't think miners deserve 80% of the block reward, I don't think their contribution is worth 4X that of Masternodes. Not even close. Yes it's the miners, and its still the miners. See how well transactions are relayed without them.
An old Celeron could process all the transactions on the DRK network (and probably all the transactions on the BTC network too) and relay them without breaking a sweat. Go look at the block explorer, explain to me why we need 100GH of compute power to fling half a dozen numbers a minute about. |
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Why not have p2pool nodes become integrated with the masternodes. Yet another service provided by your friendly neighborhood masternode. Evan's thinking of increasing rewards for masternodes right? Let's pass a percentage of the rewards on to those who will use their nodes for hosting p2pool nodes. And then another percentage to incentivize miners to mine on them. Miners somehow get a higher reward for mining p2pool nodes.
I don't know; this makes sense in my head but honestly, I'm not sure it's even possible. Thoughts?
I like the way you think! Weigh in here: https://darkcointalk.org/threads/development-update-oct-1-2014.2561/ |
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Crikey, logged into Bitfinex to pick up some more DRK and noticed they're now trading terahashes. Did some crude math but it didn't look very tempting. Bought another hundred DRK instead. |
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... CPU ... There's always a chance I'll solve a block.
Sure. Totally... :-p This isn't about solving blocks. Its about distributing the network hash rate. EXACTLY !!!! The blocks are just the bonus :-D May be I am wrong about this, but I think it doesn't really matter. The "51% attack" is about having >50% of the network hash rate. A few (let alone virtual) CPU cores here and there don't really matter. They start to solve the block but effectively never finish it and thus they never actually have any effect on the blockchain. They do not mine any blocks, they are only trying to find the solution (and their work gets flushed when somebody else finds it before them). Wild luck doesn't count here (unless you are hoping for the block reward as a lottery), because you would need a series of wild lucks in an externally defined time frame (solve several blocks in a row until the >50% entity looses it's adventage). Things change a bit if everyone mines on p2pool... |
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"Such Dark"
"Darkcoin. Privacy matters."
"Bitcoin - 2009. almost anonymous. almost instant.
Darkcoin - 2013. Anonymous. Instant."
Darkcoin. InstantX Privacy. |
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Precisely. LTC was, and is, a scam.
But, much like dogecoin, it proves to us that the fundamentals of how a crypto might work, as outlined by satoshi, are, in fact, not anywhere near as delicate as he thought.
Doge: Zero diff coin of infinite inflation has more market cap than we do, none of the users have any damn clue how it works or how fundamentally horrible it is, and it brings absolutely nothing to the table.
Lite: Calling yourself silver is all it takes to snatch up hundreds of millions in stupid peoples' money. Algo that is the 100% opposite of what it claims to be, nobody is smart enough to notice, brings nothing to the table.
Great summary Camo It seems like we need a catchphrase to attract the masses. "E Pluribus Obscurum" sounds nice and the translations too, but can Latin appeal to the general public as well as the pure genius of "Such wow" or "The silver to Bitcoin's gold"? What about, "Naughty, but nice!" edit: full credit to Salman Rushdie. |
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E Pluribus Obscurum, I say...
Google Translate's reaction is equally obscure. "Somewhat Obscure." Is it not sure how to translate it? Or is that the translation? Obscure it is...
I like, "Among many we are hidden."  |
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new drk 3d rendering  Nice work! |
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so "dummy" question:
can we run mining over masternodes and cut out the miners all together ?
Is that technically possible ?
Not the miners, no, still need them, but if MNs acted as p2pool nodes and p2pool mining was enforced, we'd get rid of the 51% attack, ensure decentralisation, and have perfect MN payment compliance without any need for 'enforcement.' |
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Was someone working on DRK integration?
It's been talked about here: https://darkcointalk.org/threads/open-bazaar-integration.2045/and it's on the wanted list here: https://darkcointalk.org/threads/call-for-devs-software-adoption.2195/Looks like not much is happening. Perhaps we need a bounty to get things rolling, dunno how mature OB beta code is at this point though. And apparently it would be easy to search&replace BTC with DRK in the code, but then we'd miss out the original network, so it would be better to add support for another coin which is much more complicated. And, there's perhaps something else that has to be done wrt multi-sigs, but I didn't quite understand what it was. Nothing much actually needs doing. OB doesn't process transactions at all, that side is left entirely up to the buyer/seller and their arbiter of choice if they want one. Since DRK does multisig exactly the same way BTC does, buyers/sellers can choose to use DRK, no problems. All DRK might lack is a wallet with an easy to use multisig GUI built in. I've shown how that can be done, and I expect Electrum-DRK to have such a thing relatively shortly. Failing that anyone can use my truly beautiful and only slightly flaky multisig demo apps if they want to! Great for making super-secure multi-key private wallets too. |
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Everyone else who has it (all two or three of them, lol), won't release it, and I don't know that because I trust them, I know that because for each of the testers, I have leverage, and while I may not trust the farmer himself, I trust that because of his wealth and farm size that he is a rational actor. The deal we have, I created with a single major goal in mind: As long as the miner is financially beneficial to me, it is equally so to him. I made it mathematically impossible for me to benefit from it while he doesn't, or worse, loses out. Because of this, I only need to trust he is a rational actor to come to the conclusion he will continue to pay me as well as keep the miner to himself. Obviously, ceasing payment would backfire hard as I would release the miner, causing his extra profit to disappear, and publishing the miner himself would be completely irrational.
I'm not a greedy moron that goes around selling it to any stranger with money - and it's probable that any others are at least as careful, if not more, than I. So, leaks are out of the question, the likelihood of them being small enough to round down to zero.
Well, my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle. |
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Point is, there is no reason to fund an optimized miner when it already is being done privately, it'll be leaked eventually.
I hear that you just have to unroll the loops in the keccak module. Eh Wolf0? |
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My 2 duffs for development priorities:
1. Leave the MN payment formula as it is right now. No need for tampering it...
2. Provide strong IP obfuscation - or TOR-merging, so that DRK is usable for "fund Snowden" type of stuff. If DRK doesn't do it, clones will. "We have DarkSend plus IP obf".
3. Find a way (or outsource) a solution to get back to MN payments at a protocol level, without workarounds and without forking.
4. Wallet stuff / visual improvements.
5. Instant TXs
(some could be worked in parallel)
Enforce p2pool. With Masternodes as p2pool nodes. No more bad pools, no more 51% attack, guaranteed decentralisation. But keep the MNs behind the planned IP obfuscation? Would need to be it's own protocol/fabric. You'd still need somewhere to point your miner in the absence of an IP address, true - but the mining software could use something like a magnet link, which is just a hash of the node ID(s). MNs will have identifying 'tokens' instead of IP's as far as the wider net is concerned, use those? I was thinking, why make it specific? Just point at the whole noisy fog and let the MNs sort it out. No more mining pools at all. Just mine into the MN cloud and poof, coins come back. You'd need some way of automagically connecting miners to their nearest (lowest ping) MasterPoolNode (MPN), but yeah that shouldn't be too hard for the Duffinator. |
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My 2 duffs for development priorities:
1. Leave the MN payment formula as it is right now. No need for tampering it...
2. Provide strong IP obfuscation - or TOR-merging, so that DRK is usable for "fund Snowden" type of stuff. If DRK doesn't do it, clones will. "We have DarkSend plus IP obf".
3. Find a way (or outsource) a solution to get back to MN payments at a protocol level, without workarounds and without forking.
4. Wallet stuff / visual improvements.
5. Instant TXs
(some could be worked in parallel)
Enforce p2pool. With Masternodes as p2pool nodes. No more bad pools, no more 51% attack, guaranteed decentralisation. But keep the MNs behind the planned IP obfuscation? Would need to be it's own protocol/fabric. You'd still need somewhere to point your miner in the absence of an IP address, true - but the mining software could use something like a magnet link, which is just a hash of the node ID(s). MNs will have identifying 'tokens' instead of IP's as far as the wider net is concerned, use those? |
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Enforce p2pool. With Masternodes as p2pool nodes. No more bad pools, no more 51% attack, guaranteed decentralisation.
Can I make an ordinary pool and then forward my hashrate to p2pool masquarading as an individual? If yes, it can be bypassed. The MN payments can't be bypassed that way as the p2pool node makes them, not the individual miner (or farm.) |
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