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1581  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: June 22, 2012, 08:26:35 AM
I have decided to take a more active role in ensuring the stability of the PureMining traded price, by placing a bid of 1000 bonds at 0.3 BTC.

I do not commit to keeping it active forever, but I will make an effort not to change this bid without a week of prior notice.

If the bid gets executed I may replenish it at my discretion.

Hopefully this should prevent low-volume selling from drastically affecting the price, which could prevent the fear of a panic sell from fulfilling itself. Ideally, the bid needn't be executed at all - it would inspire enough confidence in the bond value that people will place their own higher bids.

Going forward I will consider using the bot I'm developing for POLY to act as a more active market maker for PureMining, offering tighter spreads for buyers and sellers. One problem is that GLBSE's fee structure makes it technically more difficult to be a market maker.
1582  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed? on: June 22, 2012, 07:40:53 AM
There is a preponderance of evidence of organofcorti's p2pool posts where he flat out says or implies p2pool is the least profitable pool.
Even if that's true, offering constructive criticism is not hating. Truly supporting something  is caring enough to try to improve it, nobody needs a yes man.

You are not a fan of p2pool either
I am a fan of p2pool, and I've spoken several times about its importance going forward.

, some of your remarks have been aimed at having p2pool users mine at other non-p2pool pools.
I don't recall ever asking/recommending p2pool miners to switch to a different pool, so this is purely your own speculation on what I might be aiming at.

A few remarks I did make about p2pool:
1. The reward system should be looked at to verify that it is truly hopping-proof, and not just "almost hopping-proof" like the naive variant of PPLNS.
2. Some of its suggested advantages are a bit exaggerated, at least at this point - the network isn't going to crumble tomorrow without p2pool.
3. The correct way to use p2pool is not by directly connecting to it, but with a PPS proxy.


You are not a fan of p2pool either, some of your remarks have been aimed at having p2pool users mine at other non-p2pool pools. A hater in support of another hater, I'm shocked.  Shocked
I guess we both must be in the pay of the Big Pool conglomerates then, huh.
[joke] Must be Deepbit. They're also clever enough to hide this connection by paying us to speak ill of the proportional method. [/joke]
1583  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed? on: June 22, 2012, 04:00:02 AM
@organofcorti Why do you work so hard to provide objective, actionable information to people who would rather bury their head in the sand?

Seriously though, check_status, your comment was completely out of line. OOC has empirically investigated many pools, in many cases he found inadequacies caused by negligence or malice of the operator.

There was a legitimate concern raised about p2pool functioning properly. I learned about it myself some time ago and run some calculations, hoping and expecting to find it well within the acceptable range. What I found was that it is within it, but not well within it.

OOC too was hoping to show how great p2pool is and that there is no problem despite the fear. What he found was that there is weak evidence suggesting a problem. What would you have him do? Hide the information? Lie about it? Or share it so that the relevant people can look into it and possibly fix it (whether it affects the rewards or just the displayed values)? Or even if it is in fact an insolvable problem, being open about it and giving people the chance to make their own decisions in full knowledge of the facts? In fact mechanically presenting the data despite his personal feelings about it is exemplary scientific integrity.

In my day job, whenever I find an inconsistency in our data, people are ecstatic because it means there is a bug that, when fixed, will improve our data considerably. I don't get put down for working hard to show how bad our data is. You should adopt the same mentality.
1584  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: The mining market balance on: June 22, 2012, 03:43:43 AM
Im not sure $\sum_{X=N}^{\infty}7200*0.999^X/(X+12)$ is an analogy that helps me explain it to someone who doesnt get it. I was rather hoping something involving nickels,  dice or playing cards Smiley

That said, you are assuming you know BFL production and sales rate and you assume its constant; that is the key factor. In reality we have no clue. We can only find out roughly, after the fact, once those machines start hashing. Moreover BFL can vary supply as they see fit. Start with a trickle and gradually increase it, constantly fooling its customers who are trying to guesstimate the speed at which hashrate will increase.
Right, it's not easy to decide how much to pay, but there is an equilibrium and whoever makes the best job estimating the future wins.

I don't think BFL has much reason to artificially limit supply, demand should be high enough as it is. If they wanted to do that they'd be better off investing in something with a smaller NRE in the first place.

As far as verbal analogies go, a dollar auction has some resemblance but the quantitative difference means not much of the intuition is transferred. A classic example of time-sensitivity is negotiation between two people dividing a pie, where the pie slowly rots/eaten away by someone else while they're arguing. They'd prefer to make some fair division early on rather than constantly making counter-proposals which will end up with each of them getting less.
1585  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: The mining market balance on: June 21, 2012, 07:22:43 PM
I think the stated problem is exaggerated. There is an equilibrium where the rig price is so close to the marginal cost that it's not profitable to reduce it further. This can work with 1 manufacturer but the more manufacturers, the more stable the equilibrium. Without fixing prices, no manufacturer can arbitrarily increase prices too much. The equilibrium also shouldn't be too sensitive to the BTC rate - doubling the rate won't cause the rig prices to double, as the difficulty will also increase so they won't generate twice as much revenue.

The healthiest way to converge to this equilibrium when there's just 1 manufacturer which is leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else, is to start by pricing it similar to the competition, and gradually decreasing the price. Based on their announcement BFL don't plan to do it responsibly in this way, which is a cause for some concern.

That said, I will support an initiative to develop an ASIC mining solution which is not by a company who tries to hide the fact that their target market is Bitcoin miners on one hand, or that plans to centrally do all the mining itself on the other.

Yes, this is true.  My question is, why should miners drive off a cliff if they know one is approaching?

Ive been looking for a good analogy to help explain this, like something in game theory, but I havent found anything. Its really a quite interesting situation by itself, and I cant believe its unique, but the closest analogy one Ive found, is the well known dollar auction; its quite different in many aspects, but the parallel is that in both cases, there is a large potential profit to be made, yet anyone participating in the game, even rational actors, are forced to behave in way that is irrational and leads to individual losses for everyone, except the seller who makes a windfall profit.

Now if everyone truly understood this, BFL would hardly sell anything. But the reality is that a lot, if not most potential customers dont fully understand this, and price/difficulty will be determined by those that understand this least. And heck, even if everyone understood it, there would be some willing to bet they were one of very few taking the risk and therefore think they will still come out on top. Seeing how many gamblers we have, thats probably a LOT of people Smiley.
There's a very simple game-theoretic model for this, and the key factor is time. Someone who buys a rig knows his profits will decline as more rigs are bought, but he hopes to make up for it in the time until this happens. This leads to a natural and steady decline in prices and increase in difficulty.

Let's assume that the current network hashrate is 12 TH/s and BFL starts churning out 1 TH/s rigs at a rate of 1 per day. After X days, there will be a total of X+12 TH/s, so let's assume the profit per day for a rig is 7200*0.999^X/(X+12) (the exponential factor is to account for reward halving etc.) Then a potential buyer at day N expects to receive $\sum_{X=N}^{\infty}7200*0.999^X/(X+12)$. That's a nonelementary expression but the first 10 values are 28410.8, 27810.8, 27257.5, 26744.2, 26265.7, 25817.5, 25396.1, 24998.4, 24622.1, 24265. So a buyer on day 0 can expect to get 28410.8 BTC out of the rig, so that's what he should pay for it, and that's more or less what BFL should charge for it; on the next day it should charge 27810.8 BTC, and so on.

Of course the offered model is extremely simplified but it demonstrates the point. Additional factors such as differing skills and opportunities among potential buyers, uncertainty regarding delivery times, and a bit of irrationality for good measure just enhance the possibility of a stable equilibrium.
1586  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Shardcoin - A Blockchain Partitioning / Sharding proposal on: June 21, 2012, 07:36:40 AM
If mining all shards is mandatory, then the shards aren't offering any real benefit.  Rather, the only benefit is that non-miners can function with no block chain or a subset of the block chain.
Can you explain? I'm not an expert on MM but the way I see it everyone will have all the block headers of all shards, and Merkle branches of special transactions that have to do with MM. If there's a reorg they know about it from the block headers. They don't need to store all transactions of all shards.

Mining a chain requires a comprehensive and conclusive ability to validate transactions on the chain. One cannot mine a chain with just the headers (unless they are getting them from somewhere else e.g. centralized pool mining).   So, to merge mine all shards, one must be tracking them all - negating the benefit of separating them.
Does a Bitcoin node merged-mining Namecoin need to know all Namecoin transactions? I was under the impression that no, he needs only to know the Namecoin block header, and to include a Bitcoin transaction acknowledging it. If that's true, then a miner of a shard doesn't need to know all transactions of other shards to MM them.
1587  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Shardcoin - A Blockchain Partitioning / Sharding proposal on: June 21, 2012, 03:55:08 AM
If mining all shards is mandatory, then the shards aren't offering any real benefit.  Rather, the only benefit is that non-miners can function with no block chain or a subset of the block chain.
Can you explain? I'm not an expert on MM but the way I see it everyone will have all the block headers of all shards, and Merkle branches of special transactions that have to do with MM. If there's a reorg they know about it from the block headers. They don't need to store all transactions of all shards.
1588  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: June 21, 2012, 03:48:03 AM
I think there should be a required amount of time to hold the bonds if someone pre-orders them.  Otherwise they might just resell the at your IPO and you would then be in competition with the preordered bonds and the new ones you are releasing.
There is no way to enforce this. I've added a clause saying this is not an intended use case.

I will issue 5000 more bonds early next week.

The price will be somewhat lower than the last issue, to account for hardware advances and the increase in the BTC exchange rate, both of which mean that more hashrate can be bought per bitcoin.

I wonder if you already paid your current bond holders enough on dividends, so they don't go into loss when you will be pushing market price down while issuing more of these bonds at lower price. I don't hold any of these bonds, just curious.  Grin
I make an effort to preserve investor value, but there is absolutely no guarantee that the bond will produce a net profit over its lifetime. The market conditions change and the bond price will adapt, whether I'm issuing new bonds or not.

I'm handling this in the fairest way I know and it's impossible to please everyone. If I price it too high I may end up stuck with bonds nobody wants to buy (and lowering the price then would be even more problematic). If I announce a new price without any waiting period there will be resentment among people who have recently bought for higher. By being vague I'm giving people an opportunity to reassess their evaluation and act accordingly - but those people can end up unpleasantly surprised if the issue price turns out to be higher than they expected.

Two important events have happened since the last issue: BTC appreciation to the $6.5 level, and BFL's announcement of their planned ASIC pricing - which should be taken with a good serving of salt, but is still edible.

Anyway, to more directly answer your question - the total coupons paid per bond so far is 0.076534754 BTC (not including errors and compensation). So whether this is a profit or loss really depends on how long one has held the bond and how much he paid for it. The highest price the bonds were offered by me (correcting for compensation) is 0.4 BTC.

It also depends if you're looking at the profit of holding bonds compared to holding BTC or holding USD. Compared to USD I think it will be a profit for everyone who bought from me. BTC price affects the difficulty which affects the BTC price of a mining bond, so the position of holding a mining bond is positive but still lower than directly holding BTC, so people should expect not to profit as much from a BTC rally as if they were holding BTC.
1589  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Shardcoin - A Blockchain Partitioning / Sharding proposal on: June 21, 2012, 03:09:09 AM
You also split the miners hashing power which makes each shard less safe.
Merged mining.

Anyone could make a new shard.
With my proposal all shards have to recognize each other, so someone can't single-sidedly start a shard.

Low adoption rate.
There can be a direct upgrade path from the current Bitcoin.
1590  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Shardcoin - A Blockchain Partitioning / Sharding proposal on: June 20, 2012, 06:44:21 PM
If the shards are designed in advance to recognize each other, you don't need to mess with exchange rates and finding someone to trade with you.

All you need is a modification that new coins can be created in a shard, if there is a transaction that destroys coins in another shard and encodes information about the receiving shard and address. So to send coins from shard 1 to shard 2 you destroy them on shard 1, and broadcast a transaction on shard 2 where the input is a reference to the transaction from shard 1, together with its entire Merkle branch.

Nodes will need the entire blockchain of their shard, as well as block headers of all shards, and Merkle branches of every transaction from another shard to theirs. So instead of all transactions, they need (1/N) of transactions plus branches of (1/N) of the transactions. If a transaction is 500B and a Merkle branch is 1.5KB this can be an improvement even without N too large. But they also need N times the block headers.

All shards will be merge-mined with each other.

As a further optimization, instead of all block headers you could have headers of only X% of the shards. Then to send a transaction you need to find someone in the target shard which has the headers for the source shard.

I think I like this idea. And I wonder if the above ideas can be integrated into a more seamless way to shard the blockchain.

Another idea: Maybe it will be good to recommend to people to choose a shard based on geographical location. So local transactions can be done with the least latency and without crossing shards.
1591  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: June 20, 2012, 05:37:57 PM
I've been asked about bulk/presale discounts. I'm not a fan of these things but I guess it couldn't hurt if done modestly and openly. So here are the terms:

1. Out of the 5000 bonds currently issued, up to 3000 are elligible for preordering.
2. Preorder must be at least 500 bonds.
3. Discount will be 2%. The actual price will be determined and disclosed when the bonds are offered publicly.
4. Preordered bonds will start to be delivered after bonds are publicly put on sale.
5. The preorder agreement isn't binding for either party. The buyer can cancel the order if he's unhappy with the price or for any other reason. I can also back out of the deal, but will only do that with a good reason.
6. If more bonds are preordered than available, buyers will be put on a waiting list. Bonds will be offered to buyers who are still interested in the order they requested the preorder.
7. Preordering is done under the understanding that the bonds will not be immediately resold.
8. Preorder request can be done by either posting in this thread or sending a PM.
1592  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Idea: age verification by university quiz on: June 20, 2012, 04:40:04 PM
Question #1 is a trick question. It's Fermat's little theorem and it was stated by Fermat, but its first known proof is by Euler. I say this after looking it up, but I did pretty good from memory - "Hm, Euler or Fermat? Hey, isn't this thing called Fermat's little theorem? But wait, didn't Fermat have a notorious habit not to prove anything?"

Question #3 is wrong. There are many polynomials whose set of roots equals the set of eigenvalues of a matrix. And you can't sidestep this by saying "by multiplicity" because the algebraic multiplicity can be different from the geometric multiplicity.

Anyway, I don't know how serious you are with this, but these days kids know more than their parents (and more generally age explains only a tiny fraction of the variance in knowledge between people), so trying to deduce age based on knowledge is futile. Basically only people who have recently studied a relevant course have better than average chance at a solution.
1593  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: June 20, 2012, 03:47:38 PM
I will issue 5000 more bonds early next week.

The price will be somewhat lower than the last issue, to account for hardware advances and the increase in the BTC exchange rate, both of which mean that more hashrate can be bought per bitcoin.
1594  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Doubts about Merging and PrivKeys... on: June 20, 2012, 08:58:52 AM
1) I guess that this "internally", stands for services such as mtgox. How do they work?... I send money to an external wallet and then they are sent to a bigest wallet and "internally" assigned to my user? So no further transaction occurs in the blockchain until my user pretends to send them out to another address? If so, any hacking could mess transaction reccords loosing Bitcoin traceabillity...?
eWallets keep a database of how much they owe to each user. When a user wants to transfer funds to another user, they just update the balances rather than make a Bitcoin transaction.
1595  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: Doubts about Merging and PrivKeys... on: June 20, 2012, 04:34:47 AM
1. You can have a transaction with multiple inputs and outputs. I don't think you'd get much in the long term, since the load on the blockchain is proportional to the transaction data size. But if you do the transfers internally rather than with Bitcoin transactions, you can avoid them being on the blockchain at all.
2. AFAIK the scripting language allows a transaction to be valid only after block X.
3. With bitcoind they're stored in wallet.dat. If you're making a custom solution you can store them wherever you want. Ideally you'd have multisignature addresses, and put most coins in a cold wallet.
4. If a user gets the private key he can forever spend any coins in the corresponding address. Depending on what you are trying to do, multisignature transactions can help.
1596  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed? on: June 20, 2012, 04:27:24 AM
@Smoovious: I think it's the other way around. A centralized pool should have more latency than solo because first the pool needs to learn about the block, then it has to long-poll you. When solo mining you just need to learn about the block.

If I understand this right, you're talking about stale shares, not orphans. If I find a block on p2pool, but my bitcoind is only connected to 8 peers, it might take a while for the block I found to propagate through the network. Meanwhile Deepbit finds a block and sends it to 1000 different nodes all at once, orphaning my block.
Well, if a stale share happens to be a block, it is technically an orphan block, so this is still an increase in the orphan rate, depending on how you count it (maybe orphan blocks which are known to be orphaned when the pool receives them are not counted). What we care about here is the total rewards of the pool, not how they are distributed internally.
1597  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: wikileaks "Bitcoins cannot be easily tracked back to you" WTF?? on: June 20, 2012, 03:47:02 AM
It's not easy to to figure out which addresses belong to a given person. Case in point, I don't think it was ever done.

Bitcoins are ultimately untraceable provided the users cares to not reuse any of his addresses.
That's not true. The main problem isn't reusing addresses, it's merging outputs.

Correct.

See here for a tool that computes the list of addresses
that can be proved to belong to the same person:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=88584.msg975907#msg975907
Cool. "Proven" should be taken with a grain of salt, as advanced Bitcoin usage (such as oblivious mixing) can involve transactions with multiple inputs which do not belong to the same person.
1598  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed? on: June 20, 2012, 03:43:51 AM
@Smoovious: I think it's the other way around. A centralized pool should have more latency than solo because first the pool needs to learn about the block, then it has to long-poll you. When solo mining you just need to learn about the block.
1599  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: Recover New Addresses on: June 19, 2012, 06:59:57 PM
The wallet should have those addresses in its buffer. Which means that if you click on "generate new address", the new addresses you'll get are the ones you had before. What they won't have is the label, which you can add.

Do note however that change addresses, generated when you send bitcoins, also count towards the 100 addresses buffer.

You should be able to see the coins in your balance and spend them even without re-generating the addresses.

I've never actually tried this before so reports on your progress will be welcome.

And I've heard that if you have someone's private key, then you can spend their bitcoins.  I have my private key and my public keys.  How do I access them?
Some of the dev versions of bitcoind can import and export keys.

Since you know the private key, the easiest thing to do is import them to a wallet at blockchain.info
They're already in his wallet, no need to import anything.
1600  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: NPW 5.1 p2Pool - bad luck or flawed? on: June 19, 2012, 05:39:36 PM
10:1 likelihood ratio? Isn't it 20:1?
According to http://p2pool.info/luck/, 3851 PH were calculated but 3491 PH worth of blocks were found. Assuming difficulty = 1.6M this means 560.4 blocks expected and 508 blocks found. So the likelihood ratio between poisson distributions with mean 560.4 and 508 for 508 found is (508/560.4)^508*exp(560.4-508) ~ 12.5.
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