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Can someone please send me an original copy of their Batch 1 order confirmation in word format ASAP? (August, 2013 version). Feel free to remove sensitive information.
I'd like to compare them.
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Hello,
If there's anyone with a Batch 1 spot for Hosted mining orders that don't feel will be able to pay or decided to go instead for actual shipped hardware, please let me know.
I'd like to take your spot in exchange for some BTC fee.
Please PM me to arrange details.
Thanks,
arorts
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Here's another lawyer that would consider taking a fee instead of a retainer if enough participants sign up. http://www.bakermarquart.com/attorneys/brian_kleinSomeone eloquent enough to speak the legal lingo might want to check him out to give him a quick call. Not sure what % he'd consider. Just in case.... |
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Nice, how did you create this cool chart? |
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A very obtuse reading of the law.
The key part is that a refund is required. Using FINCEN's guidance, Bitcoin is currency. It is therefore reasonable to demand payment of the refund in the currency that was tendered.
Not obtuse at all. USD are legal tender for all debts public and private. The Baby Jets were priced in USD and the delivery date was unknown but to be performed on best efforts basis and the future exchange rate of BTC is irrelevant to the contract unless there was a specific term that shifted it somehow like a put or call contract. Consequently, the FinCEN guidance and your reasoning from it is also flawed. Additionally, just look to the UCC to see how foreign currency payments are treated (3-107 or 4-214). If HF delivers Batch 1 Baby Jets in January then I think it will be very difficult to prove HF has not made best efforts relative to common industry practices to get the merchandise delivered. I thought it was in the TOS that refunds were to be in USD at the price of the Baby Jets or in BTC at the amount paid and at the discretion of the customer so long as there were enough other people on the wait list so there would not be unsold Baby Jets. But I am not aware of any screenshots or prints of the TOS so that returns the BTC exchange rate issue to irrelevance. Consequently, I think it will be very difficult to find an attorney to take this case and even more difficult to find one to take it on contingency because you will likely lose. Wow... someone who actually understands the legal system and contract law on Bitcointalk... and posts? It's a banner day here in Custom Hardware land! Ya'll should listen to him, he apparently has a firm grasp on reality. Oh, really?? Are you a lawyer or have become an HF shill?? You seem to be equally clueless of any legal shit as well. Why don't you just go back to the hole from where you delayed products for 6 months and constantly misled people. That's probably a better "firm grasp on reality." As I said before, "tender" o no "tender" shit does nothing from a currency validity standpoint per as the latest FinCEN guidance: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=391375.msg4215273#msg4215273This guidance was provided by the FinCEN a bit over "two weeks" ago, BTW if that magic time period resonates ;-) |
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If you ordered batch 1 you got an email confirmation. In this email it has the word "full" as in "full refund." Hashfast removes the word "full" from "full refund" which is not in their TOS.  They have changed the text of this confirmation mail later on. In later version, it only says If Buyer ordered one or more units of such Baby Jets, and Hashfast does not
deliver such units by that date, then Buyer may cancel the undelivered portion of
the order at Buyer's request and Hashfast will refund the payment for the units
that Buyer purchased but did not receive and canceled.
So they have (silently) removed the "full" part. Not sure exactly when this happened, though. Which is a stupid and useless move by HF because removing "full" from the wording DOESN'T do any shit. Refund = refund, refund is NO less than a refund. If anyone attempts to refund less than what was originally paid it should explicitly say so as part of a contractual agreement. DUH!! Can you imagine saying "I just fully got my Babyjet vs getting half a BabyJet. Did you fully book your cab? or just semi-book it?. Just remember to add "full" to any action or word you say, otherwise it means that you don't really mean it. LOL!!! Very stupid of you, HF. Shame on you! |
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We all paid different amounts by different means and at different times (and are thus subject to different TOS).
We all have different records of our transactions with HashFast so it is not really possible to put up a united front on getting full BTC refunds.
If Cedivad, actually sues and wins his case, it will not, by any means, guaranty that anyone else will win their slightly different cases.
But one thing seems to be clear: the end of October delivery date was never a possibility and was actually fraudulent false advertising that affects us all equally.
The damage that that false advertising has cost us is the amount of BTC that we have lost from getting our machines delivered in January (hopefully) rather than October, and can easily be computed(*) (once we know for sure how fast the machines are, and when the actual delivery occurs).
I suggest that we get together to sue HashFast for that amount (plus punitive damages?).
Cedivad, what does your lawyer think of that?
(*) I estimate the amount lost due to late delivery to be around 22BTC, assuming overclocking to 500GH/s and an early January delivery.
It's not like there were a million TOS versions. The vast majority of all Batch 1 orders should basically correspond to the same TOS. In any case, all TOS indicate refund of payment, NOT partial refunds of payments or USD conversion crap. |
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I thought it was in the TOS that refunds were to be in USD at the price of the Baby Jets or in BTC at the amount paid and at the discretion of the customer so long as there were enough other people on the wait list so there would not be unsold Baby Jets. But I am not aware of any screenshots or prints of the TOS so that returns the BTC exchange rate issue to irrelevance.
Consequently, I think it will be very difficult to find an attorney to take this case and even more difficult to find one to take it on contingency because you will likely lose.
Are you a HF shill?? You sound like having a loser mindset otherwise.. Anyhow, don't think. READ the TOS: NO USD exchange and no "subject to people wait list" bullshit either. |
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A very obtuse reading of the law.
The key part is that a refund is required. Using FINCEN's guidance, Bitcoin is currency. It is therefore reasonable to demand payment of the refund in the currency that was tendered.
There was a related ruling earlier this year where Coinlab's was ordered to deliver BTC as they had contracted rather than returning cash as they had tried to do.
Nothing is open and shut in Bitcoin at this stage. But there is an argument on both sides.
Currency also does not equal cash. FinCEN also said that virtual currencies are NOT legal tender. The Coinlab case is different as a contractual obligation is, and should be, enforced as written. The fact that it currently might not be legal tender does NOT interrupt its EQUIVALENCE to currency!. Do listen to the director of FInCEN acknowledging Bitcoin status back in November irrespective of "tenderness": "....A convertible virtual currency either has an equivalent value in real currency, or ACTS as a SUBSTITUTE for real currency. In other words, it IS a virtual currency that CAN be exchanged for REAL currency...." In other words, we don't give a shit if it's "legal" tender or not. If HF is TAKING currency from us, for applicable refunds, HF needs to refund 100% of that currency to us. Anyhow, leave that to a lawyer and let's not waste time believing we are lawyers. The People of The United States of America vs. Hashfast. Let the lawsuit begin!! Can someone please post online a TEXT version of both the OLD email confirmation (with full refund text) and old TOS to show to judges the multiple violations HF is liable for? |
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Now since the only payment option is in BTC Will I get the same ammount of BTC back should you fail to deliver by December 31st?
Orders are taken in BTC, in the unlikely event we get to refunds they will be given in BTC. That's a big promise. A btc rate of $100 is not the same as $150 in 2 months time. What a smoke screen promise. If HashFast is *using* the pre-order money, refunds of any kind (BTC or current $ value) are out of the question -- you can't refund money that is already spent. If HashFast is *not using* the pre-order money, why is it being locked in until next year? Can HashFast make a statement on how pre-order money will be used? Just so we all are all ABSOLUTELY clear: how HF used of any funding is NOT our fucking problem!! HF, Refund 100% of the payment (which was done in BTC)!! |
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Unfortunately he doesn't state that it will be the same amount as you paid though. That goes without saying: he's actually confirming that ORDERS are taken on BTC (unless you did some kind of USD wire transfer or such) and since those orders were PAID on BTC and he isn't referring to any USD exchange crap and the REFUND applies to 100% of that PAYMENT just as the TOS state, then the refund applies to 100% of the BTC order. Anything else is FRAUD and DECEIT. End of debate. Do man up, Simon/HF and do as you promised!!  |
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The terms say the refunds will be in the currency in which they were paid... which seems straight forward... but then they amended it later to say at the exchange rate in USD... so they will give you the initial USD purchase price in BTC.
So... while the initial wording seemed pretty clear that they would return the exact funds... they changed it when BTC went ballistic.
Why don't you post a copy of the original TOS instead of just making a claim? Amend?? Amend my a$$. Nowhere in the TOS for Batch 1 does it say they'd use any USD exchange rate for BTC refunds...If you are talking about that recent email today, that's not a TOS. That's just a last minute, play-dumb email that can never replace the original TOS. |
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I ordered from this company because of the full btc refund guarantee.
your reasoning doesnt matter. there are no BTCs to gather. and not enough $-funds to buy BTC at this price level. so no BTC refunds, if you like it or not. They already said MPP chips were already ordered and were different than batch #2.
of course those chips are already ordered, anything else would be bad news. but those chips will arrive early february at best i guess and are limited in numbers. you cant just decide to get 800% MPP instead of 400%. learn to deal with realities. Yeah, except no. It's not our f*ing problem what HF did with the money we paid or if they have that money or not or if there are any exchange rate fluctuations since then. You get exactly the amount and currency you paid (either BTC thru Bitpay or USD transfer). |
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3PM PST (GMT-8), DECEMBER 27TH, 2013
Dear Customers,
Our apologies for not communicating more often these past days. We have been going all-out on production in order to ship Batch 1 units by December 31.
We have enough GN chips in hand for all Batch 1 orders. We also have enough hardware (boxes, cooling systems, power supplies, etc.) on hand for all batch 1 orders.
We are in the final stages of production. Our initial modules (Rev 0) had reliability issues due to the PCB layout (Printed Circuit Boards). We received Rev 2 PCBs this morning and they are currently being assembled.
We expect these rev2 PCBs to work well, and to begin bulk production and be on track to ship batch 1 orders December 31.
The remaining steps (assembling the modules into the Sierra or Baby Jet chassis, packaging and shipping) are quick and generally very predictable process.
Please know we are doing everything possible to get you your orders as soon as we can.
We will update you with our progress as it happens. Stay tuned to Twitter and our HashFast Blog for the most up to date news.
Many Thanks & Happy Holidays,
The HashFast Team Interesting.. the West coast got an email before we did here in phili... are they printing out the packets and 'shipping' them? .....like how long does it take to bulk email less then 500 emails? I don't think anyone gives a shit about whether it's in bulk of 500 or 150 emails. What's more important is that that email mentions ship by December 31 when in fact the TOS is based on DELIVERY, not shipping. HF is probably playing dumb but we'll remind them of their own terms.... |
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It was UPS, but from recent news it looks like that they will be using Fedex. (and by delivery i'm afraid that the EXWORK thing on the TOS allows them to deliver to Fedex by the 31th).
@ninjarobot, they are closing every stream of information because it's their biggest strength. Keeping you at the dark allows them to have more margin of movement and not saying other lies publicly will just help them (just let gateway/hf_cl do the dirty job for you).
I just hope that you will testify what john told you when you went to visit them if we arrive to that point...
Dude, could you please stop spreading/smearing your own BS? ExWorks means that the seller won't incur on any import costs or any other additional transportation costs or logistics obligation after the seller ships. That's it. We are not supposed to pick up the items at their facilities either, which is sometimes associated to ExWorks (that's the reason we provided a shipping address). Period. Then does delivery mean at my door? or does ExWorks mean they have delivered when they give it do the shipping company? YOUR DOOR of course! :-) It has never been otherwise and it will never be otherwise. We are not freight, cargo or shipping companies. So forgive these forum people for all their BS and confusion: they like to overcomplicate the simplest shit in the world. |
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It was UPS, but from recent news it looks like that they will be using Fedex. (and by delivery i'm afraid that the EXWORK thing on the TOS allows them to deliver to Fedex by the 31th).
@ninjarobot, they are closing every stream of information because it's their biggest strength. Keeping you at the dark allows them to have more margin of movement and not saying other lies publicly will just help them (just let gateway/hf_cl do the dirty job for you).
I just hope that you will testify what john told you when you went to visit them if we arrive to that point...
Dude, could you please stop spreading/smearing your own BS? ExWorks means that the seller won't incur on any import costs or any other additional transportation costs or logistics obligation after the seller ships. That's it. We are not supposed to pick up the items at their facilities either, which is sometimes associated to ExWorks (that's the reason we provided a shipping address). Period. |
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Remember, it's "delivery by Dec 31". We've already passed the point of possible delivery for a lot of people, i.e. International customers.
It's a tough row to hoe, but they can still make it for most of the planet if they ship in the next couple days. Express out of Montreal in time to catch the PM flights over the Atlantic ... North America and Europe easily, even if shipping Saturday. Most of Asia too. Major cities in other places probably as well. Not cheap, but possible. I'd expect that covers 90% or more of their orders. Delivery as far as HashFast is concerned is delivering it to the courier to bring to you. The terms were EX WORKS, so once the goods are loaded up on the FedEx/DHL/UPS truck, HashFast's obligations have ended. There's a whole bunch of other scummy stuff in the (multiple versions of the) ToS, but that is pretty standard. It really isn't HashFast's fault if your unit gets stuck in customs in Upper-Tzatzikistan for an extra week. Now the two month delay from October to now is another story, but that's pretty well covered here... HAHAHA. BS. We don't give a f*ck if they start touring BJ's around the country. It's based on actual DELIVERY. Not based on stupid product "truck load" crap. No need to bend over before the party ends. |
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I dont see any refunds happening.
- First of all there wont be BTC refunds. You may sue them and maybe you will be successfull. But initially there wont be any BTC refunds after the 31th.
- So the only option thats left would be to take US$ refunds. But why should any resonable person do so?
A babyjet was around 5000$ if i remember correctly. Thats about 8 BTC right now. So you have got the choice, take 5000$/8BTC now or accept the babyjet and additional MPP.
I think its pretty obvious that the babyjet+mpp will be worth more than 8 BTC easily. So nobody will opt for the US$ refund, period.
Only if you paid them $5K (in USD). I didn't. I don't know about you but I paid in BTC so refunds by nature are done in same quantity and amount they took so not I'm not worried about it irrespective of what the f*k HF does with those BTC, which is not our problem. Does the MPP state ROI in USD? No. it's also in BTC so stop jerking off mentally cause USD refunds don't make sense. :p That'd be total fraud right there getting filed with the Attorney General right away!!! |
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Where are these guys.. They've been silent.
Trying their best to get units out that will probably die or catch fire in 11 days (just after their 10 day warranty period) so they don't have to refund batch 1 customers. Well, they don't have to refund ALL batch 1 customers. Just what's not delivered on time IF customer request it. But it's better to hold shipping until they can deliver a QUALITY product. Otherwise, they don't want to deliver a both late and failing product! At this points is way better for them to take the hit with whatever refunds are necessary so that at least Batch 2 people can get a nice product and they can place orders again in the future after the learnings of this phase. The worst shit HF wants is to fail on both ends. The don't want to repeat Butterfly Labs story !! Rebuilding REPUTATION is KING. Rushing shitty products is NOT. |
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We were screwed one month ago. today we are totally fucked. for gods sake just ship them as is. I dont even care if the raspi is working at this point. We are losing the chance to roi every day, literally.
NO!! We don't want crapy BS miners that fail!. We want a real fully functioning product that can stay up!! No need to get crap that needs to be RMA'd! and reduces ROI anyway! |
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