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Anyone has any info on why Reddit blocked paid bitcoin gambling site advertising?
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We kind of went off the original topic here, which was are online casinos using bitcoin legal. We will actually soon be provably fair too, but that's not really the point. The Cereus scam, can be implemented in any poker site, provably fair or not. Revealing the cards on the table to certain players doesn't require any false generation of cards in a particular order. Kahwanake is the most shady jurisdiction of all, not recognized by any government. It is a total scam. That's why they were able to run such a corrupted organization. There is no control in Kahwanake as long as you pay their fees. The only place that is worse than Kahwanake is Costa Rica. Most players believe that there are actual licenses and control over there. But there aren't. You just incorporate a dummy corporation and you are good to go. That's the reason many countries in Europe closed their markets for non-EU gambling companies. So they could filter the potentially shady jurisdictions and companies. 5 years ago you could launch an online casino and noone would ask you a single question. You could have all the payment methods, service US players, have a stable bank. Nowadays without a proper license you can't even get a bank account, let alone payment processing. The offshore gambling businesses are either dieing slowly or moving to controlled jurisdictions with licensing. Good examples for that are bodog - who is slowly leaving Kawhanake and moving to Europe & Asia, many of the Curacao operations are moving to Malta or Isle of Man, PokerStars moved to Isle of Man and so on. My point is online gambling becomes more and more regulated on a daily basis, and it won't pass the bitcoin casinos and it is coming rather sooner than later in my opinion.
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Hi Mem,
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And the giant online casinos could care less about being provably fair. It's only us smaller single owner / operator types who have to have a provably fair system.
They might care about it though, if they save on licensing costs, if they don't have to pay someone to be gambling audited or compliant. But only if it is not required. Their industry requires it though, and competitors will be quick to complain to the authorities against online casinos that do not have proper documents or audited fairness standards, no matter how provably fair it is.
You are correct. They could care less about it. From another point of view though, they are much more proven to be fair compared to the provably fair casinos, as they get audited on an hourly basis, and all the software is tested to be fair in laboratories. As a matter of fact, all of the certified lab software providers are directly linked to the governing jurisdictions, such as Malta, UK, Alderney, etc. Every single bet is instantly logged in the governing authority servers. If there is a slightest chance that it is not fair, the casino directly loses its license. So on top of that, why would they bother implementing a provably fair system... Disagree completely, "tested to be fair in laboratories", I think you are picturing it a litle too much fairy tale. In practice everything happens more lax then you imagine.. Example? Absolute Poker was licensed by a respectable gaming commission. Didn't stop them from cheating the players for massive amounts through software hacks ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cereus_Poker_Network) Provably Fair is a big innovation, it may never see adaption by the industry which I understand, but it's perfectly in line with the values any decent bitcoin casino deems worthy. And at the moment a LOT of bitcoin players appreciate and prefer it above anything else. I still see no reason why any serious Bitcoin Casino would not make their casino Provably fair and I would strongly recommend against playing on any casino that is not. On your earlier remark of not being able to compete with the giant players if they adopt bitcoin in the near future, I again have to disagree somewhat. (Although of course it would be very heavy competition) - The chance they will offer the ability to gamble completely using bitcoin (not just converting your bitcoin to fiat) is very improbable. - Most bitcoin casinos offer custom made software, that is completely unique to that casino. Regular casinos generally offer the same cookie cutter 10-year old roulette flash games over and over, with little creativity and completely dependent of their game licensees. Many of the bitcoin casinos right now, don't be mistaken, CAN compete on software today. There are currently over 350 different casino software providers in the world, accounting for probably 8-10000 different games. Saying "Regular casinos generally offer the same cookie cutter 10-year old roulette flash games over and over" is a nonsense. And how is your casino war game unique or different from ours for example? The graphics might be, but after all its the same standard casino game that everyone else has... It's the same game logic, the same user experience, the same house edge, etc. Cereus wasn't rigging the RNG, it was allowing employees to play against their players with an option to view cards. So this is not a valid argument. "Disagree completely, "tested to be fair in laboratories", I think you are picturing it a litle too much fairy tale. In practice everything happens more lax then you imagine.." I am speaking out of practice (12 years experience in online gambling). It is so stressful to get an RNG or a game certified to be fair that you can't imagine. Every single game is being tested with various tests, such as Chi-Square Tests, Serial Correlation Test, Poisson Distribution Test, Frequency Test, Diehard tests, and so on. After the tests are complete, the system is hooked up to the central server and the code is being checked every month for discrepancies. There are no speculations or child play there. To get a casino with about 50 games certified will cost you around $70,000 and ~ 5 months of testing in the lab. On a side note related to that, how many of the casinos here are tested with these tests? They might be provably fair, but what if their RNGs are biased or inconsistent in their generation? I've spoken to a few other operators on this forum who didn't even understand how to random generate properly and what technology to use and were and currently are running games. So how safe are the players? Now regarding competition if it goes mainstream. Even out of the operational costs, most of the sites around here will close. How many will be able to afford a 100k license, a 70k lab test, and 5-10k a month in just licensing fees and taxes. And where will the players prefer to play? In a casino that has a license and is secure and controlled by a serious authority, or in a one that doesn't. So how exactly will you remain competitive? (not trying to bash you, just being realistic) |
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Disagree completely, "tested to be fair in laboratories", I think you are picturing it a litle too much fairy tale. In practice everything happens more lax then you imagine.. Example? Absolute Poker was licensed by a respectable gaming commission. Didn't stop them from cheating the players for massive amounts through software hacks ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cereus_Poker_Network) Well, I frankly think little of most of these gaming commissions. Particularly the Kahnawake Gaming Commission, which resisted suspending these clowns for far too long. However, the software hacks were not related to the deal. The deal could have been (and as far as I know was) perfectly fair. The problem was insiders had access to information (like other player's hole cards) that they could exploit to cheat. Similarly, even without insider access, players can collude by sharing hole card information. In that case, as well, the RNG dealing the cards would be perfectly fair. But players would be obtaining an unfair (and against the rules) advantage by cheating. +1 |
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And the giant online casinos could care less about being provably fair. It's only us smaller single owner / operator types who have to have a provably fair system.
They might care about it though, if they save on licensing costs, if they don't have to pay someone to be gambling audited or compliant. But only if it is not required. Their industry requires it though, and competitors will be quick to complain to the authorities against online casinos that do not have proper documents or audited fairness standards, no matter how provably fair it is.
You are correct. They could care less about it. From another point of view though, they are much more proven to be fair compared to the provably fair casinos, as they get audited on an hourly basis, and all the software is tested to be fair in laboratories. As a matter of fact, all of the certified lab software providers are directly linked to the governing jurisdictions, such as Malta, UK, Alderney, etc. Every single bet is instantly logged in the governing authority servers. If there is a slightest chance that it is not fair, the casino directly loses its license. So on top of that, why would they bother implementing a provably fair system... |
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Yes. It will happen the same way as it happened in the dotcom era. Smaller establishments will die, larger ones will takeover. Except that now there is a major threat for us. *In the case* bitcoin goes heavily into mainstream within the next 2-3 years, I don't see any of us compete with billion dollar establishments with thousands of people staff, such as pokerstars, bwin.party, ladbrokes and others. Right now a lot of the big companies are looking at btc as a gambling payment method due to the ease of use, NO transaction fees (processors usually charge 4-5%) and no chargebacks (a good 2-3% of any real money online casino right now). So even if it doesn't go mainstream, large gambling companies still have a very good use of it, and they consider it already. There have been many talks on the latest igaming shows about bitcoin. The only thing stopping them right now is the volatility of bitcoin. It still seems too insecure for the larger establishments. Otherwise it is a no brainer. You have 200mln a year revenue. 8% of that ~ 16mln goes into processing costs. You have this FREE, instant, secure option to save this 16mln and turn them into profit...You don't need much of a brain to see how it will benefit your business.
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I'm doing something, I call it dice-mining, using my dice-miner. It works on many pools like the satoshi-dice-miner with direct blockchain access, the coinroll-miner with api, the primedice-miner, and the latest is the just-dice-miner with javascript enhancement.
Makes bitcoins per click, depending on internet connection speed, as opposed to waiting for either share dividends every other week, or waiting for your vaporware pre-order gigahash mining rig that hasn't arrived yet.
I'm currently hashing at about 0.1 BTC per day. You can even pick the percentage of finding the next block.
But beware, someone lost 100 BTC this way. You have to set it correctly.
LOL Dabs  If all miners were like you... it would have been a beautiful world. |
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Yes, this is what I am saying. "In Holland". It doesn't mean you are equally legal in the rest of the world. It only means you are legal in Holland. Also fyi, there is a law coming up soon which will regulate online gambling, and I know your stance right now is that it is legal as bitcoin is not considered money, therefore not gambling, but we will see how it will play out after the law passes. http://www.tax-news.com/news/Netherlands_Eyes_20_Online_Gambling_Tax____60889.htmlfirst, this law is aimed at foreign market and I am dutch. Second, the dutch parliament has stated that bitcoin meets only 2 of the 4 criteria with which the law defines money and thus no financial licenses are needed for exchange, securities, financial services and gaming. This has been an explicit statement in Dutch parliament and as gambling is defined as playing for money, these new laws wont apply to bitcoin poker This could be correct for the Netherlands, but it doesn't open your road for other countries where the laws might be different just because you are based in a jurisdiction where it is legal. Anyways. Other opinions are welcome |
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Yes, this is what I am saying. "In Holland". It doesn't mean you are equally legal in the rest of the world. It only means you are legal in Holland. Also fyi, there is a law coming up soon which will regulate online gambling, and I know your stance right now is that it is legal as bitcoin is not considered money, therefore not gambling, but we will see how it will play out after the law passes. http://www.tax-news.com/news/Netherlands_Eyes_20_Online_Gambling_Tax____60889.html |
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The main issue is if bitcoins can be qualified as 'money by other means'. To give a comparision: in Vegas, people are not playing with real cash, but with chips and these chips are regarded as money by other means, making it gambling.
What you should look for is a country which specificly states that bitcoin isn't money and therefor none of the monetary rules apply (including gambling, securities and exchange). A decent example is The Netherlands...
This doesn't really help from a jurisdictional standpoint though. It only avoids the need of a gambling license. He will still have to comply with the laws of each country from which he takes players. |
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As Bitcoin is (relatively) cheap and as it is not (relatively) as fast growing as Apple (was), it is not difficult to do predictions.
First, it is down, and it will for some time. If you have experience at FOREX or stock market, you should know that summer is generally slow. Accept it, there will be no "Bitcoin hits 10,000" till at least September.
Second, Bitcoin does have fundamentals, you know, all those supply-demand balance things. And at its peak it was overpriced.
Third, number of Bitcoin awared people is going up (3 out of 15 according to my personal surwey among people with University diploma), and either is the number of stores that accept Bitcoin (1 of what? a million?). So there is a huge promice for it going up, unless you-know-who interferes. So it will fall to either 60 (50% drop) or 30+ (62% drop) and go up, either slow, or - if something happens that makes people feel uncomfortable holding "real" money (Cyprus ver. 2.0) - fast.
Nothing to worry about. Imho.
I agree. There is huge promise and future in it. It will take it's time though. |
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Instead of schilling for bitoomba in such a ridiculous manner (already saw a few threads), why don't you just introduce it to the forum with a full thread with information?
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I'm now doing this too Starting posts: 324 Address: 1Diaz9Nhs8d8GEXcwTJQKDkwzKj34UH2r4 First payment is on July 24th I've made just over 250 posts since adding my signature in, can I get a payment today?  You would have to wait till the cycle ends. |
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Also Russia is not a good example as online gambling is heavily illegal over there.
Russia does not recognize virtual currency as money or even tangible asset, therefore running Bitcoin-only casino in Russia is the same as running non-commercial gambling site like pokerth.com (which is legal of course). Tell this to the Russian government... I can bet my house they won't care, if they see a roulette table on your site or a slot machine, they will shut you down like 1 2 3. Online casinos are illegal in Russia as well as land-based casinos, except for one particular territory, which is supposed to be the next Las Vegas, but hasn't been built yet. There have already been numerous takedowns with arrests and prison sentences. Goldfishka is a good example of such a case. There is even a casino blacklist, where most online casinos land eventually and are being blocked by the ISPs. The system in Russia doesn't really work the way many of you would imagine. To run an online casino there you need to pay "security" to influent underground people (vory v zakone) and they expect it, who can secure you the government to not touch you and let you operate. This style of operations accounts for the whole СНГ. You might try to run "rogue" today, but what will happen when they knock on your door tomorrow? Without paying the appropriate amounts, you have no chance of success in Russia, you might even get killed. In Europe it depends on the country: France, Italy, Bulgaria, Spain, Germany - These countries have their own licenses, which an online casino or a sportsbook must have in order to operate and not end up in a legal battle with the particular Government. UK - this is the only place where outside licensing is recognized, but only if it is from another EU state. A Curacao or Kahwanake license for example is not recognized. Netherlands, Romania, and the rest are all either in the process of legalizing it with their own particular licenses or consider doing it. They are still considered grey area by many large operators. (might have missed a country or two, but you get the picture) China - Online gambling is illegal, and most of the activity is ran through the Triad networks of agents on street level. Canada - BC has it's own license. The rest of Canada can be ran with a Kahwanake license. USA - Until 2006 online gambling was considered grey area. Then the UIGEA was introduced, which outlawed the payment methods used for online gambling. However the gambling activity by itself remained intact. In 2011, DOJ released an opinion that the Wire Act as well as UIGEA are mostly set towards sports betting. This opened up a whole avenue for land-casino to legalize online casinos and poker. A federal bill won't pass anytime soon, not in the next 2-3 years (my opinion), however many States have introduced their own legislature controlling it, such as Delaware, Washington, NJ, Nevada, Illinois, New York. In some it is legal in others it is illegal. Other states are in the process. It doesn't matter where you are incorporated, you need to comply with the laws of the Governments of the countries from which you accept players. What is gambling by definition?Gambling is the wagering of money or something of material value (referred to as "the stakes") on an event with an uncertain outcome with the primary intent of winning additional money and/or material goods. Gambling thus requires three elements be present: consideration, chance and prize. Where does bitcoin stand and why all the "bitcoin isn't a currency and therefore it is legal" talks are irrelevant:
At current timing bitcoin is undefined by any government. They still wonder what exactly they should do with it and how should they tax it and regulate it. "Is it a bird, is it a plane, or a superman???" However, the moment bitcoin is fully legalized, it will either be considered "money" or "something of material value" (commodity). In either case, any online casino that accepts bitcoin payments (including us) will fall under the same rules and regulations as any standard online casino. It will need to comply with the particular laws of each government it operates in, or fall in the "illegal" sector. On top of that ALL Governments are well known for arrests, court cases and hefty fines and backtaxes. A good reference would be the sportingbet and partygaming and of course pokerstars settlements with the US, sportingbet paying backtaxes in Spain, partygaming CEO currently being indicted in France for backtaxes for before it was regulated and the list goes on and on. Consider the bitcoin gambling business a grey area, which will eventually be regulated. The SD and StrikeSapphire owners get this quite well and that is why they don't accept any US players. On our end we have made the decision to accept US players and we know the future complications involved. Note: Consider this a personal opinion. |
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