I have five (5) 240V/30A circuits for rigs [All running off of 240V] and one 120V/20A circuit for the 48 port switch, router, modem and exhaust fan.

36,000 watts total available for rigs.  I've pushed it to max a couple of times.  Which ended up tripping the main breaker.  I actually had to turn off a few S3's to keep it going during the summer.  I've sold all of my rigs on eBay and waiting for S7's now.

Thanks...  I'll check it out!

Many are not upgrading.  Many are holding off because they don't see ROI in a decent time.  Also, to double the difficulty, the network hash rate would have to be doubled.  The present network hash rate at my writing is 456,465,126 GH/s [Per Bitcoin Wisdom].  If we were to double it with nothing but BITMAIN S7's, it would take 93,922 BITMAIN S7's.  It would also take 113,646,667 watts to power all of those S7's.  I'm not going to take the time to determine how many SP50's it would take or any other rigs the other "big boys" will be coming out with.  

If the big boys were to choose rolling out with a lot of hash power NOW (during fall and winter) they will only hurt themselves.  Especially, with price of bitcoin where it is presently.  It would be more advantageous for them to wait until late spring to roll out a lot of hardware - adding to the network hash rate.  The price of bitcoin will probably be higher in late spring and they can begin to put the squeeze on each other (big boys).  You heard me right, "...each other."  They would create a hash rate war between each other.  Which, in turn, would increase the amount of time for them to ROI even though their ROI was short [At one time] due to acquiring the rigs at cost.

So, yes, many miners in areas with higher electricity costs will want to upgrade their rigs to avoid losing money on electricity costs.  But this requires them shutting off their old rigs [Effectively taking hash power off the network and adding new hash rate].  It will take a LONG time to double the network hash rate and the difficulty in this manner.  So, existing miners upgrading will not likely double the difficulty.  Who else, besides BITMAIN, is rolling rigs out in large quantity and selling them to home miners and larger outfits?  If you say, Spondoolies, that is only one outfit and there won't be very many large farm miners investing in the price they will ask for the SP50.  Especially, if they ask for more than $35,000 for it.  SFard's isn't busting out efficient gear in large quantity.  The truth is, the home miners and large farms mostly have BITMAIN to depend on and that's about it.  If anyone is doing serious "upgrading," it would be "the big boys."  However, don't forget if they add too much they are in affect creating a hash rate war and it would be counter intuitive for them to do so at present price of bitcoin.



We all know the price of rigs get higher if the price of bitcoin increases at a rate faster than difficulty.  I'm counting on a bitcoin price peak.  That's when I sell my S7's on eBay at roughly the same price I paid for them and wait for the next generation rigs to see if it's worth getting back in the game or not.




You mis understand.  I'm saying "the big boys" would be competing against one another for market share if they begin to crank out a lot of hardware to add to their farm.  If that's not competition, I don't know what is.

Yes, to determine "ROI" is determine "...if I spend 3 btc, can I get 6 btc in less than 1 year by upgrading my rig?"  I say, "YES," if the price of bitcoin does what I hope it will do and after selling my rigs on eBay.  Also, I don't do my calculations in btc.  I do them in dollars.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, QuintLeo.

I'm always open minded and it's good to hear opinions from different sides of arguments.  I have to go to bed now.  As it is 4:41am for me and I can barely keep my eyes open.  I'll respond a bit more later.  Have a good evening or day [Depending on where you are].

Cheers

PS - I would agree their ROI takes less time because of obtaining their rigs at cost.  However, we also have to look at what action this breeds.  If one manufacturer did this, another would do the same for market share.  Which thereby would increase the amount of time it would take for ROI even though the price they paid was at cost.

The only way I see a manufacturer possibly obtaining significant market share is by over whelming force.  Meaning, they would have to more than double the network hash rate all by themselves in one big swoop all of a sudden.  That would take a LOT of capital and a LOT of power (electricity).

It makes more sense for the big boys at the moment to just replace old gear with new [more efficient] gear to increase revenue by decreasing power costs.  Getting into a hash rate war for market share will only increase the amount of time it takes to ROI on their equipment, even though it was at cost.

We must ask ourselves, "Would it be beneficial for the big players to get in a hash rate war if the price of bitcoin remains the same or not MORE than double at the time of the block halving?"

The price of bitcoin would have to at least double to see twice the difficulty we see now.  For it to be 3x of todays difficulty, the price of bitcoin would have to be 3x what it is today for it to be beneficial to the big boys after the block halving.

There comes a point in time where it is no longer wise to invest funds into more hash rate if the rate of return does not justify such actions.  Doing so will push out the home miner for a while but certainly not during the winter months.  I know I would keep several of my rigs just for the winter months.  So, if a hardware manufacturer that mines for themselves makes a move in a hash rate war, it will not be in the winter.  It will be in the spring or early summer.  Even then, there is much risk.  They will have to acknowledge they will not have as much return during the hash rate war.  They will have to acknowledge they will not have as much return on their investment during the winter months either.

Let's say they do increase the difficulty so high it pushes out other miners.  They did this while also diminishing their own returns for a little while.  What do you think the other miners [who were pushed out] would do if the price of bitcoin rises to a level high enough to offset the difficulty increase?  They will get back in!!!!!!!  Thereby diminishing the big boys returns once again.  Which would make them wonder if the investment they made for increasing their hash rate was really worth it.  They would have to continue investing more money into more rigs to increase their hash rate even more to push out the little guys.  Also, the big boys have each other to worry about as well to make them wonder if it was really worth the investment to increase their hash rate.

So, the big boys have a LOT to think about if they wish to increase their hash rate exponentially.  It could very well back fire on them.  However, it may be a risk they are willing to take if they have enough capital sitting by for the long rainy days that will occur from such action.  Their return on investment would take much longer from such action.  If they add more hash rate after an increase in bitcoin price to push out miners who got back in the game, it would only mean more capital spent and more equipment to be concerned about making ROI.

There is definitely much to take into consideration by the big boys if they wish to get into a hash rate war.

No, I honestly don't think the difficulty will drop.  It WILL rise.  I'm only counting on the price of bitcoin to rise exponentially come spring time.  It's counter intuitive for the big boys to get into a hash rate war at present price of bitcoin.  It's more productive for them to replace old gear with new gear without raising the difficulty exponentially at the moment [In my opinion].  

So yes, I expect the difficulty to go up to approximately 70 billion by December and 90 billion by spring next year.  But I'm also expecting the price of bitcoin to rise with the difficulty, however, a delayed rise along with it.  The price of bitcoin [Percentage wise] will not rise the same amount at the same time.  There will be a delay in the rise of bitcoin price until the spring.  I expect a significant rise in price in June [Just before the block halving].  If I don't see that significant rise in June, it's time for plan B or C.  If we do have significant rise, it's probably time to sell the rigs on eBay at very close to the same price as what I paid for them.  Why close to the same?  Because BITMAIN will have the price of the S7 much higher at that point in time if the price of bitcoin is significantly higher in proportion to the difficulty.  

It's just a gamble I'm making.  I'm not going all out with my money.  As I'm using money to invest in things other than bitcoin (E-Cigs).  I'm only gambling with a portion of available funds.  There are always risks in investments.  Some more than others.  Usually, more risk means more returns if it pans out.  I always say, when gambling, "Never invest what you're not willing to lose and never invest more than 10% of your bankroll into a game." Also, "Never have all your eggs in one basket."

I would be willing to bet that BITMAIN and other big players will have a new rig waiting just for what I'm talking about with the rise in bitcoin price in June.  It would be foolish for us to think they won't.  That's where I believe the mining side of bitcoin will get very competitive for a while.  That's when I believe will be the best time to sell my rigs or just before it.  It depends on the price of bitcoin at the time.

Built in my recreation room downstairs just for home mining:



ALL of this gear is gone now awaiting S7's:  [That is black spray paint on the wall inside the mining closet.  It was as good of a place as any at the time to do some painting].  Five (5) 240V/30A circuits provide power for the Five (5) 240V/30A PDU's.  Two of the PDU's are mounted to the ceiling joists out of the picture.  Don't mind the orange 10/2 wire hanging down.  That's another 240V/30A line I was running that was not completed yet at the time of the photograph.  I had more hardware (S5's) that were put into use on the left side that were not set up yet at the time of the photo.

As you can see... I already have the 220V to 240V outlets with PDU's and I have several Corsair Platinum 860 watt PSU's.  What you don't see in this photo are the 19 IBM 2880W PSU's.  Four of the IBM 2880W PSU's were being used for the 15 SP20's.  The rest are out of the picture.  So, I'm not spending any extra money on outlets, wiring for outlets, PDU's, PSU's, ethernet cords or PCI-e cords.  I already have the peripherals.  I only need the rigs.

The 14,400 CFM exhaust fan is plenty for my present needs of getting the heat out.



This photo was taken during the initial setup of the hardware.  I'm adding it only to show the size of the mining closet inside:

I saw the same thing in my calculations as well.  However, I'm going to take a bit of a gamble.  I have my thoughts about the difficulty between now and the block halving that I do not wish to share here.  I also have my thoughts about bitcoin price in the spring and about a month out from the block halving.  The power costs per GH/s is not as high as it used to be on previous rigs.  I'm actually paying for the power out of pocket and holding on to the bitcoin mined.  There's a chance I might sell the rigs one month away from the block halving.  I won't know until that time.  I will get money back when the rigs are sold on eBay.  How much?  Who knows...  I only want to be in position if we have another pump like we did November of 2014.  

If bitcoin price rises, so does the price of the rigs.  I could potential sell the rigs at the same price (used), if not more, on eBay if that scenario works out.  It's all about timing in my opinion.  The next ten months will be very interesting indeed for bitcoin and for mining.  I had to have "something" in the game.  I might lose a little or I might make a lot after selling bitcoin mined later down the road and selling the rigs at a potentially higher price on eBay.  Who knows?  Only time and a little luck will tell us.  Depending on difficulty, I may buy 14 more S7's in December to be prepared for the spring.

I have my thoughts about price of bitcoin and difficulty, just as I'm sure you have your own.  As for who's will be correct as time passes???  Only time will tell.  Some might say, "Buy bitcoin instead of rigs."  I'm a gambler.  I'm going to try to mine the same amount of btc I would have bought and sell the rigs for a little extra profit once I'm finished.  That's the plan anyway.  You can try to sway others to avoid what I'm doing.  That's fine.  I don't mine.  It's a little late to sway me; as I have already purchased 9 of them.  You might sway me from purchasing 14 more in December.  Only time will tell.  I'm open minded.

Yes, they did say that.

I wish I would not have hesitated myself and just ordered on the first day.  However, I waited until the 9th of September.  So, it may not be until the 9th of October before I receive them.  It's all good though.  I'll remain patient.

I just shared this on the S7 thread.  I hope you don't mind.  I think it's a great idea.  If you had rather I did not share it, I will take it down upon request.

I believe they are shipping them on a first come first serve basis determined by "when" someone placed their order.  I can see where confusion can come into play if multiple items are ordered and they ship only part of the order then mark it "shipped."  I had purchased multiple S5's several months back and had to send two of them back about 3 days apart from one another.  When they shipped units back to me there was some confusion about how many S5's I sent to them and it took another week to get the second S5 shipped back to me.  It all got worked out in the end and I was happy.  I got a BITMAIN T-Shirt to boot for the confusion.

All in all, BITMAIN is a damn good company.  If issues arise during the warranty period, they do their best to make things right in a timely manner.  I'm thankful they put up with some who speak ugly things about them.  They still sell quality hardware to us despite some of the ugly words.  It's much appreciated.  They don't have to put up with us at all nor sell to us but they do and we don't have to buy in bulk.  We can buy only one unit if we like.  

They are willing to invest in staff who will respond to support issues that may arise from buyers within and after the warranty period.  I think Spondoolies and others saw this as a headache and that is part of the reason they have chosen to sell only in bulk to avoid having to hire more staff to handle the load from so many buyers for support purposes.

To be honest, I don't mind if my rig is 5% less than stated hash rate.  Plus or minus 5% is to be expected in my opinion.  I only wish we could adjust the frequency accordingly to get the rig up to the 4.86 TH/s [If the hash rate is below that] without voiding the warranty.  If it was more than 5% less than stated hash rate, I would be concerned.

As for the SP50, yes, it is a monster with an insane efficiency.  However, I can't imagine trying to get rid of the SP50 once I'm done with it.  It would be hard to find buyers willing to pay for it used at more than $15,000 +.  Not many buyers available in that price range.  The SP50 would have to be broken down and sold piece by piece (blade by blade and PSU's separately).  Maybe someone will have conversion kits available by then with a closure, controller(s), etc... to install one or more blades inside with a controller and fans.  I honestly don't see myself spending $40,000 + on a single rig (SP50) anytime soon with the block halving approaching in July next year.  I'm content staying right here with BITMAIN and smaller rigs that are a bit easier to let go of on eBay when I'm done with them.

If someone buys an SP50 in a group buy or whatever, they will be stuck with it for the long hall in my opinion.  I don't think I'm willing to take that gamble at this point in time.  I might if I had $250,000 to drop down on several of them and move to Washington State to make ROI come about much faster.  However, I don't have $250,000 to drop on that kind of investment right now.  The best I can do right now was purchasing nine (9) S7's and 14 more in December.  The rest of my money I receive in December will be used to open a couple of E-Cig stores.  Hopefully, 4 or 5 months after that I can open two more E-Cig stores.  I hope to have ten (10) stores minimum within a 2 year period.  It would be nice to have 12 to 14 stores open.  Then, if mining is still viable by January, 2018, I may get involved with mining quite heavily.

My apologies for the "short story."  I mainly wanted to say "Thanks" to BITMAIN for their patience and putting up with some of us.  Their contribution to the bitcoin mining community is much appreciated!!!  I still see their S7 as a "beast" and I believe it will be around for quite some time to come.  It can be under clocked for better efficiency in the future.  How much better?  I'm looking forward to finding out.  I know J4bberwock is working on a setup with two DPS-2000 BB server PSU's and breakout board that will also allow one to regulate the amount of voltage supplied to the rigs for better efficiency.  

Tech specifications:

4 layers of copper, 2oz on each layer
4000w output with 2x DPS-2000 BB.
30x PCI-E connectors
On/off switch
Optional adjustable output voltage from 12v to 13.7v on the older DPS-2000 BB PSUs

"Final design should be able to do from 11.2v to 13.0v to cover all the voltages supported by the BM1385 chips (0.60v to 0.71v) if you open the PSU and trim one potentiometer that is easy to access.
Without opening the PSU, the lowest voltage will be 0.6v below the original voltage of your PSU, and max voltage will be 1.2v over the original voltage."

Optional voltmeter if you want to adjust the output.

Sideplates with M3 threads (nutserts or similar) to attach both PSUs together and make the 120mm fans installation easier: 2 screws to remove from the PSUs, attach the plate, screw the fans, "et voila".

Expected price: $55.
Maximum size of first batch will be 150 boards.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1178099.0  Might have to get a few... we'll see.

Cheers,

David

I think everyone should take this as a learning experience...

Do NOT put rigs with PSU's in the same order.  Make separate orders for rigs and PSU's to avoid confusion in the future.  I can see how this could happen.

Good to hear you got it all worked out, Searing.  I plan on doing a bit better with the new rigs I have on the way.  I came out ahead on all of my previous rigs.  Not much... but ahead.  I'm itching to get my S7's in my mining closet.  Have 9 on the way and 14 more in December depending on difficulty.

Batch one was already sold out a few days before the announcement by Spondooliestech.  The SP50 has nothing to do with the "sold out" announcement of batch one.  Bitmain, is a straight up company and much appreciated.  At least by me.

Don't forget your power costs:

BITMAIN, has always given me good service with defective rigs I've received in the past.  Keep us updated please.

It's nothing to get "past" them.  It's only two sheets of paper I give my accountant for my business every year.  No details needed unless audited.  Even if I am audited, there is nothing to hide because EVERYTHING is documented and accounted for.  I give myself payroll and I also take some "draws" as well but never more than 50 percent.  My wife is an accountant.  I think you need to do your homework.  

What the hell do I have to get "past" the IRS?  The hardware (rigs) are depreciating assets.  They depreciate a certain amount each year.  If they are sold [As mine were] you simply subtract the depreciated value from what you sold them for.  Depending on the difference, you might end up on the "up" side.  If you end up making money from the sell AFTER depreciation, then money is made and corporate taxes are to be paid.  You don't even have to do it as a corporation as I have.  You can simply use your SSN.  I have an EIN for my S - Corporation.

We have some gas dryers here in the US.  Especially, where electric rates are high.  However, most dryers in the US are electric.

Sure...  I like the sound of that when doing my taxes writing off my hardware expenses.

Sounds good...  I would be happy with that.

As for the blinking red light the other person has on their S7 and the fans that have a substantial difference in RPM's, I'm beginning to wonder if it has issues.