So with the PoG change, will the new values for max_tithe be 10-1 (descending) and the min_coin_age stay 0-60 and min_coin_amount stay 1-12500?
If I'm reading the code right, min_coin_amount goes up to 25k. Does that mean combined "stake" of 62.5M BBP that was 30 days old becomes 125M BBP? It sounds like Rob is sacrificing donations received so users are guaranteed a BBP ROI until more participants arrive. https://github.com/biblepay/biblepay/commit/52b3fe81ca2ada664d815f21d090aa7ac12b5448td.min_coin_age = R2X(Quantize(.25, 60, nQLevel));
td.min_coin_amount = R2X(Quantize(1, 25000, nQLevel)) * COIN;
td.max_tithe_amount = R2X(Quantize(10, .25, nQLevel)) * COIN; // Descending tithe amoun Bingo! You got it. We are sacrificing donations per day but guaranteeing that everyone can participate (IE 10-20,000 concurrent pool participants). Then we can also see clearly what our trend is toward the public. And in reality I think all this is going to do (as far as not having enough donations per day, not filling up the pool) is difficulty will drop for us (because everyone network wide will spend the coin age), then 4 hours later everyone will tithe again at a low diff, so we will still have a chance at filling up the pool from repeating low difficulty tithes. The main improvement is capacity. When more people come we can handle it for a couple years in the future (which would be a very good problem to have). |
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So with the PoG change, will the new values for max_tithe be 10-1 (descending) and the min_coin_age stay 0-60 and min_coin_amount stay 1-12500?
If so, then to achieve median difficulty would take 5000 tithes a day, but those users would have to have a combined "stake" of 62.5M BBP that was 30 days old, meaning to sustain that level (just median) would take more coins than currently exist (1.875B). And at that level, tithers would see a return of approximately 16 BBP for each 5 BBP tithe. Since the level of difficulty would have to be lower, you're looking at a much much higher reward in practice which becomes very troubling as, again, it would be no net cost - no risk and have no psychological floor (whereas someone generating coins that cost them 1 cent per 100 to make, has a reason to not sell for less that 1/100th of a cent).
If the min_coin_age and min_coin_amount decrease, then it diminishes the impact of decreasing the max_tithe.
I make no bones about being a PoDC supporter, but PoG is not a system that brings much benefit when I look at it objectively. No risk mining means no real price floor. When coin age exceeds a few weeks, it reduces the ease of entry for new users, but without it, the whales would rule the system. It has the potential to be very inconsistent with both rewards and how often a user can tithe, both of which make getting new users difficult. It doesn't sufficiently constrain supply...unlike Proof of Burn which eliminates coins from the economy, or Proof of Stake which typically locks coins in for longer terms for rewards. PoG adds network traffic that we can sustain for now, but when you compare to our theoretical maximum transaction limit (which I've ballparked before and don't have the numbers in front of me), 5000 additional transactions a day could start to have an impact. In short, even though I feel PoG would benefit me personally, I don't see it being beneficial for the coin at large.
I ask with all due respect, that when the PoDC vote occurs, one option is to eliminate PoG. I also request that the community at large be heard and to that end would ask for a commitment from Rob to not vote more than a handful of the Sanctuaries under his control.
1) No; the new values are 10 max_tithe descending yes, but coin_age starts at .25 a day minimum - 60 ascending, and the min_coin_amount stays the same. 2) On the median difficulty and 'much higher reward' in practice; no, everyone works with a relative share weight which is related to their applicable coin count from #1, and the tithe cap remains the same and the max reward per day (90k) remains the same, so no this is not true, actually I dont even follow the logic here. Once coin age is spent, the newbie who waited 7 days to stake that coin has to wait until the coin age matures again to get back in the pool, so there is no additional reward in phase 2 compared to phase 1. What we do see is more participants in the pool and lower average difficulty for everyone. 3) If the 'no risk-no price floor' were true then a coin like PIVX would be worthless. Obviously people value each share of their crypto with more facets than electricity as an inputs. I listed some of them 50 pages back: future price target, innovation, expectation of dash to have more success, expectation that our devs are good, central bank expectations, many things go into pricing each share other than electricity. So you might be right about going from 7 satoshi floor to 6, but even that is laughable because Im not holding BBP to appreciate from 7 satoshi to 8 because of electric. Its laughable. Were holding biblepay because we know biblepay is deflationary, will provide real world value in the future and we believe in the devs and the technology that is entering the project. We know that some day Rob and MIP are going to succeed in the killer feature and biblepay will be in the top 100 list. At the same time the Christians will catch on and out of 1 billion, we see a certain sliver that likes crypto. Thats the expectation. Not a measly 10% increase in electric cost over 10 years  . 4) If you are concerned about the PODC vote level I recommend you buy enough bbp to have more sanctuary count than me. Obviously every one who buys a sanctuary has the right to vote with it the way they please. It would be foolish not to use that right. On a side note, I still believe in POG and think PODC is too complicated for the average Christian. In addition I think adding in PODC is not completely aligned with our vision (of having a high percentage of believers who contribute in development to this coin). |
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I noticed when I have internet connection issue, PODCupdate will not recognize my RAC, and create a PODCupdate with stake of 10 BBP. Even when I had a good PODCupdate ~30 blocks prior, this causes me to miss a payment sometimes. So, this PODCupdate seems to be created when the wallet is offline and then sent when it comes back online.
Is there a way we could prevent this by only allowing a PODCupdate to be generated if the stake is greater than x, user input variable?
I think the best way in your case is to set 'utxooverride=nnnn'. This just sends the same amount every time it tries to send (therefore you should not have a low amount logged). |
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- POG was never gamed
- You don't understand POG
- Splitting wallets is counterproductive
If you say splitting wallets is counterproductive, then can you please explain why? Balance requirement remains the same? Sure! I am always happy to elaborate. So with POG, the act of giving is governed by the ability to spend a Single coin with Age + Minimum Amount + Maximum value. This means that it is equally beneficial (but more efficient) to store all your coins in one controller wallet. For one, we will see distinct nicknames (thats good for accurate reports), for two we may have a Christian Economy feature in the future that ties to the address, and three- splitting the wallet offers no real advantage due to individual pool entries as the split coins age at the same rate (IE two wallets tithing more frequently are not capable of tithing more frequently than one wallet). The single wallet will tithe just as frequently as possible for the difficulty level. So in environment A, a user with a 100K balance split into 10 banknotes is exactly equal to a user with two wallets and 50K balance on each split into 10 banknotes (across 2 nodes). All 20 of these banknotes age at the same rate and offer the same pool share percentage. So there is no advantage to splitting the wallets - but its more efficient to have one (you have one miner running, you have one nickname), etc. If you want more POW mining you can still just set up the other nodes for POW only (without POG). |
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Under the newest version of PoG there would be no need to split wallets. Having a huge bankroll split into multiple denominations would be the same (more or less) as having multiple wallets with the same denominations and quantity. The only gain would be if you needed to do more than roughly 720 transactions a day in which case multiple wallets would simplify that (as you can set tithe=2 which would try and tithe every 2 minutes or 720 transactions a day).
We do need a detailed explanation of what was coded to change in PoG to better understand it, but from the way it appears, with the reduction in max tithe it will be hard to exceed the daily maximum at this point.
And I still believe that PoG doesn't really simplify things because at this point a six year old might be able to change the config to tithe=1 but won't have an understanding of how it's working.
Correction to your post: Under any version of POG it would be counterproductive to split wallets. We didn't change POG's rules to mitigate split wallets (we talked about this way back in the first page of testnet). POG not only simplifies things, but its like day and night compared to PODC. I'm sorry but I just can't tolerate the misleading nature of this post. You and 99% of the people here know how complicated PODC can be. (PODC has a dictionary of terminology, while POG is as simple as the POW mining algorithm itself with 3 tithe parameters in it). |
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again update all MNs,wallets? omg
How accurate is your explorer node that we pre-paid for 3 months for, is it synced properly? |
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Creating more wallets will be counterproductive, as you need coin-age to tithe.
This would be a one-time destruction of your coin-age... A savvy person could just move the coins that were just tithed to another wallet. Since the coin age is 0 anyway, there's no coin age loss. This makes me feel the tech savvy users will again game PoG and newcomers will be negatively affected. - POG was never gamed - You don't understand POG - Splitting wallets is counterproductive Please proof-read what you write before posting here. You know the rules are not to spread FUD or make assumptions. If you need more help understanding POG first please e-mail me with the questions or MIP. |
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again update all MNs,wallets? omg
Yes, entire network. |
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will rejected tx destroy coin age?
No, it will be like it was not sent. |
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In Phase 1, if POG Diff < 5000, and the supermajority has upgraded, we only accept 5 tithes per block, and the tithe parameters have not changed.
In Phase 2, after block 102025, the maximum tithe amount is 10 bbp, and we limit the tithe count to 75 per block (if diff is < 5000 for that block).
In Phase 2, after block 102025, if POG diff > 5000, we limit the tithe count to 150 per block.
If we want to tithe more then we can create more wallets? Do you expect 50k BBP to be donated per day (on average) with these new parameters? If someone doesn't participate in PoG (like exchanges or hardcore PoDCer), do they really need to upgrade to 1187? Seems like all the changes are PoG related. Creating more wallets will be counterproductive, as you need coin-age to tithe. The entire network must upgrade (its a mandatory upgrade). On a side note, POG has a hard consensus (unlike PODC contracts), meaning a change to pog is a consensus change. I believe in phase1 the donations will be a lot closer per day (to the target) but I think in phase2, they will almost be exact per day. |
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Pog primarily works the best on the machine you keep your bbp balance (as pog uses coin age to tithe).
If you want to mine on 3 machines, I recommend to set machine A up for POG, then machines B & C for solo or pool mining.
With 1187, is there a limit on how many times we can tithe and a max tithe amount? In Phase 1, if POG Diff < 5000, and the supermajority has upgraded, we only accept 5 tithes per block, and the tithe parameters have not changed. In Phase 2, after block 102025, the maximum tithe amount is 10 bbp, and we limit the tithe count to 75 per block (if diff is < 5000 for that block). In Phase 2, after block 102025, if POG diff > 5000, we limit the tithe count to 150 per block. Rejected POG tithes show up in the client as "The transaction was rejected by the network! Check your wallet to ensure the coins have not been double spent." The BBP will not be subtracted from the users balance and the icon will show as conflicted. |
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Dear,
after install wallet 1.1.8.5 my balance go down from 203.000 ti 4.000 ( more or less ).I really don't understand whatz appened.
Now I install a new wallet on main pc with the wallet.dat backup stop at 31/1/2019 date where the balance is right.
I'm really don't know what appened, I still waiting the connection to peer network because no connection with source...
Thanks for any help or suggestion.
Cheers
Ale
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7nmvm8/how_to_update_clean_wallets/It is slightly possible (without knowing you specifics) that you mined on a fork. But if you had a greater than 4000 balance for some time, that is unlikely. Follow the steps on the "cleaning" guide and you should get things back on track. I have seen a specific case where the steps had to be followed twice to achieve the results. But...Already done that... right now there aren't any source block available... So no connection at all Please ensure your clock is correct within 2 seconds, your timezone is correct, delete banlist.dat, restart, and if you dont find a node within 5 mins: addnode 45.32.201.137 onetry Rigth now everything since to be ok, wallet is update. A question... I mine with 3 computers I add the configuration for POG in all of 3 or just in one ? Thanks a lot. Pog primarily works the best on the machine you keep your bbp balance (as pog uses coin age to tithe). If you want to mine on 3 machines, I recommend to set machine A up for POG, then machines B & C for solo or pool mining. |
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Is PODC already retired? Now how to start mining using POG? Any instructions? Thanks.
No, we still have the 1mil~ per day PODC live. We are going to vote on it around block 107,000. Pog is currently paying just 3.5% of the budget. Getting started guide: https://wiki.biblepay.org/Proof-of-Giving-for-Beginners |
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To be honest I still don't understand how exactly the tithing works. I have tithe=1 in my config and my wallet occasionally sends out some BBP. By now I also appear in the leaderboard and I even received tithes already. However my "titheinfo" still shows 0 for all numbers: "24_hour_tithes": 79488.39999999999,
"pog_difficulty": 102758.9892453088,
"min_coin_age": 60,
"min_coin_amt": 25000,
"max_tithe_amount": 1,
"Tithable_Coin_Quantity": 0,
"Tithable_Largest_Coin": 0,
"Tithable_Coin_Avg_Age": 0,
"Tithable_Total_Coin_Balance": 0,
"Tithability_Amount": 0,
"Tithability_Summary": "NO",
"Tithe_Cap": 50694,
"Daily_Miner_Emissions": 94628,
"Pool_Emissions": 75702.40000000001,
"Lowest_ROI%": 16.5,
"Highest_ROI%": -2.5 Also, why is "highest ROI" a negative number? (win x64 wallet 1187) So we are waiting for some more people to upgrade to 1187 (see exec versionreport). Once we have about 51% on 1187, you should no longer see this situation, as 1187 has a leisure feature that will actively reject the tithes that are too high (the sender of the tithe will not lose the money, they will get the transaction cancelled) and this should technically keep our POG pool within its bounds until the mandatory phase starts. Once that starts we should see a lower average difficulty but every participant network wide should be in (thats what I would personally really like to see as I realized, in order to track mass participants we need all of them in the pool). |
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Dear,
after install wallet 1.1.8.5 my balance go down from 203.000 ti 4.000 ( more or less ).I really don't understand whatz appened.
Now I install a new wallet on main pc with the wallet.dat backup stop at 31/1/2019 date where the balance is right.
I'm really don't know what appened, I still waiting the connection to peer network because no connection with source...
Thanks for any help or suggestion.
Cheers
Ale
https://www.reddit.com/r/BiblePay/comments/7nmvm8/how_to_update_clean_wallets/It is slightly possible (without knowing you specifics) that you mined on a fork. But if you had a greater than 4000 balance for some time, that is unlikely. Follow the steps on the "cleaning" guide and you should get things back on track. I have seen a specific case where the steps had to be followed twice to achieve the results. Thanks a lot. But...Already done that... right now there aren't any source block available... So no connection at all Please ensure your clock is correct within 2 seconds, your timezone is correct, delete banlist.dat, restart, and if you dont find a node within 5 mins: addnode 45.32.201.137 onetry |
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- Tithing wont be spammy, it will be about 3* more frequent as it is now, but this "assumption" of spammy is not correct to begin with, as difficulty will settle in a dynamic fashion
I think 3x more qualifies as spammy. If we have more participants, shouldn't the PoG difficulty adjust the max tithe down? I don't understand why you're having to put out a mandatory now to address an issue, that's not fully observed. Maybe it was a mistake to put [Pog Tithe?] checkbox. Perhaps removing that and exec tithe from debug console can prevent the repeated tithing. And really the only two things we can adjust is: tithe=1 (or whatever other value we want) and nickname That would remove the spamming, although I realize it wouldn't necessarily prevent someone from using 1185 or 1186 w/o a mandatory. Its not spammy, because a few extra tithes per participant per period does not qualify as spammy, nor does it exceed what PODCupdates do (in terms of spam), nor does this assumption take into account how the efficiency of POG causes the participant to slow their tithing while difficulty settles in on a certain range as coin-age is spent. (Bitcoin deals with 32,000 transactions in single blocks while we deal with 10-20, its not really realistic to call POG spammy, especially with PODC being retired). The Pog Tithe checkbox just gives a person an additional way to tithe, but this probably only accounts for 10% of the tithes (I assume 90% would be done by the miner). We need a mandatory, regardless of this issue, as V2 is a needed improvement to have a professional product. I want to see more than 1000 users in the leaderboard after V2. |
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The last thing we need is the good lawyer service.
Masternode vote ?? There were no. Maybe it's wild west. But this is a very interesting topic. The whole subject is an interesting document. Because masternods vote when they are comfortable.
Rob, you're not dealing with children. You made yourself a testnet with bbp.
Do you want any bets? No, I do not bet with people who are jumping in panic.
It makes me laugh, but probably other people less.
Do it even pog57 version, it's just hypocrisy ...
Next mandatory enough.
Yes, we had a Sanctuary vote for every important decision. We are 100% democratic. I figured that was all you had with your idea about POBH! Zilch? Your afraid to take the bet also... Remember, I still look to God as my father, and our secret weapon is praying that POG is successful when the time is right to extend his Kingdom. We need be Kingdom minded and glorify God, not men. |
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Bbp wallet - c-cex offline, southx offline.
Slovakia 1 sato? We are going to 0 sato.
Very politely.
No problem, politeness is good. Please take this into consideration for your spread of FUD also: Part of our drop in price is due to unlocking of the locked up 50 mil in 20bbp-per-rac. So enjoy the coins while they are cheap because when they are gone the price then goes up to what they are worth (in contrast to what you are saying). |
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