Explain how it is in any way shape or form different other than in scope of the company size.
It's not.
Terrahash is a business.  They are selling a product to a customer, and they are pinning that on bitsyncom delivering to them.
In my example
Gamestop is a business.  They are selling a product to a customer, and they are pinning that on Sony delivering to them.

The ONLY difference is the size of the businesses involed, which does not make it apples and oranges.  It is the same situation being played out across both.

And try some reading comprehension.  The example I put up clearly TH would be equated to gamestop, not to sony or sony's supply chain.  Bitsyncom would be the one being equated to sony.  but again, the only difference is scope.

I tend to equate it more with the typical issue of such and such doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother anybody else.
I've never said anybody else should get refunds or be pissed at TH or be mad or anything.  I've not once said that anyone should share my opinion; only recognize that those of us who choose to use the relevant laws and regulations for their intended purpose aren't doing anything wrong.
It's a little off-putting to have the other side keep insisting that those of us who recognize and acknowledge that the situation isn't TH' fault but that doesn't change the fact that we aren't willing to sit back and lose our money are doing something wrong, or are assholes, or whatever.

It's also a bit mind boggling the apparent attitude people have that 'we took the risk' and don't seem to think that any risk should be borne by TH- yes we took a risk.  We took a risk that merchandise would be delivered late or not at all, but that risk was tempered (for those of us in the US) by consumer protection laws that say we are entitled to 100% of our money back if we don't get our merchandise.  TH is looking to profit as a business; that means taking the risk that your supplier doesn't deliver, your project fails, whatever and you have to return everyone's money.

Why do they seem to think that TH should get a pass and be able to make a profit while bearing no risk, putting 100% of the risk on the customers?  I honestly can't wrap my head around it.
The only thing I can come up with is it's like the whole Apple/Android thing - some people are rabid about defending their chosen camp

I'm legitimately curious - would you have the same opinion if, for example, you pre-ordered (and paid in full up front) say a PS4 from gamestop and they said no refunds, and then Sony didn't deliver PS4s to their customers, didn't tell anyone what what going on for weeks on end and then came up with some shaky excuses and went silent again and nobody had any idea when or even if the PS4s would ever show up?
Would you just sit back and say yo gamestop it's cool; I know it's not your fault and you've got my money, and I have no merchandise, but I'll just wait until who knows when?
What if the unthinkable occurred and the PS4s never showed up?  What would you do then?

 

You'll note I didn't 'blame' you for anything (other than arrogance which I stand by), nor did I say you would fail.  I said it was arrogance, and refuted your assertion that you've done everything the best you could.  nothing more, nothing less.
Nobody, myself included, can say with certainty that you will or won't fail.  That's for time to tell.  What I can say is that by not testing you're taking risks that increase the chances of you failing.  
Not only is there nothing wrong with expressing that, it could also have been useful in that the possibility existed that it would make you stop and think "huh, ya know, maybe it would be a good idea to test just to be sure".

The bolded part of your post is what I was referring to, and I stand by my statement.  Using a negative connotation; an implication that I am just some amateur who thinks he know something (and that's precisely what 'armchair engineer' implies) and then following that up with derisive sarcasm.

Are you attempting to say that it's good or reasonable to make an assumption that something is fixed without testing it?
Calling me an 'armchair engineer', when you have absolutely no idea of anything about me, my background, my experience or anything else... love it.
Tell ya what, how bout you don't go getting personal?  I didn't make it personal, all I did was state facts and one opinion which I clearly labeled as such.
Any experienced person in IT or EE fields can tell you that it is not generally not a good idea to assume without testing, and most certainly is not in keeping with best practices.
Same applies with many other fields, although mentioning those would just get called out as comparing apples to oranges even though it's the same concept - Don't assume, test.

This, right here, is the height of arrogance.
If I had a dime for exery time I've asked if a new version of something has been properly tested and someone said no but don't worry about it, I know what caused that problem and I've fixed it, only to find out shortly thereafter that oops that didn't fix the problem after all or created an entirely new problem that they didn't realize and put a project on hold yet *again*, I'd be a rich man.
You're right in that nobody has a right to tell you how to run your business.  The only right anyone has is to look at how you run your business and decide whether they want to do business with you in light of what they see, whether that be good bad or indifferent
This is a subjective matter of opinion, but I would have to say that if you're making assumptions that something is fixed without testing it to be certain, no you have not done everything the best you could do.

I'll believe it if/when people start receiving chips.
If it's actually true, then it figures the news would come after I committed to getting out lol
But as I said before, I've made my choice and I'll stick with it and live with it

Well, I'm out.  I've had no response to my cancellation request since 8/13/13, not even one telling me to FOAD, so I made the decision to commit and filed a dispute with my CC bank due to merchant's lack of ability to deliver merchandise or provide even an estimate of when they will be able to.

I'm sure some will think I'm a rotten person for it, and that's their opinion.  The truth of the matter is, while I recognize that TH isn't the root cause of the problem here, I don't believe I'll ever see my merchandise so I will fight for my money back and let TH go after Bitsyncom for their losses.  For better or worse this is the way the civil legal system for disputes is designed to work in the US.

Sure, I could wait for TH to go after Bitsyncom first, but I see 2 problems with that.  First, I run the risk of the statute of limitations passing; Second, even if TH sued Bitsyncom and won (since I don't believe for one second that they'll refund money willingly) they will have spent a lot of money on legal costs and they still would have to try to actually collect on that judgment.  That whole process could take years and we still would likely only get partial refunds, which would (legally speaking) still leave TH on the hook for the balance - but by then the statute of limitations for a small claims suit would be past and there would be no legal recourse to force them to pay it.

So to all who are sticking it out - I hope it works out for you some way somehow.  Good luck to you, you have hardier stomachs than I do; and if you're further down than very low 600s in the orders in the queue, you should be raising up one, unless for some strange reason my bank decides to deny my dispute.

Two Weeks after the end of civilization you mean...
By some accounts there's still Avalon B1 or at least B2 orders that haven't been delivered.  Even if my instincts screaming that these chips will never show up are wrong, which I doubt, it will be a very long time.

wow... classy.

Allegedly, the chips are supposed to start moving again by the end of this week last I heard according to Yifu.
There's still been no data offered on who those chips are going to, whether any of TH' chips are even on the way or not.
That's IF you believe Yifu, and I don't trust anything he says.  I don't trust him even as far as I could pick up and throw a big tractor trailer.

At this point, IMO everyone would be wise to do an assessment for themselves of whether they think the chips will ever arrive, and whether TH is in a position to deliver if/when they do and then act accordingly.
I won't recommend cancelling and trying to get a refund, nor will I recommend sticking it out.  I've made my decision for myself, and everyone else has to do the same (or has already).

The mistakes I'm referring to I've already detailed in another post after the one you originally quoted.  Essentially they took that huge order before they opened pre-orders up to us and used the money from the order to buy the chips which they had no reasonable guarantee of being delivered on time (Bitsyncom has a well established history of not delivering on time) and didn't get a legally binding contract.
They didn't have any capital to start their business, they used customer order money to do it - ALWAYS a bad idea.  It's too risky.  By their own admission in this thread, they then compounded that error by opening more pre-orders to get money to fund the refund to the initial huge order from cloudhashing.  Again, insanely bad idea.  Using customer money from later orders to pay out an earlier customer is actually quite illegal, if for no other reason than it places you firmly in ponzi scheme territory (even though it's not investing). 

All of that is secondary to my main point - which wasn't to complain so much as to point out that people going after refunds due to the situation changing very unfavorably and the risk level increasing are not in any way committing fraud or doing anything morally or ethically wrong.
There's no point in me complaining at this time - I've requested my refund from TH for my small order and explained why.  If they choose to not issue it, or ignore me, then I'll let my bank deal with the situation.  It's that simple. 
I'll fully admit I could be jumping the gun, and maybe this will all work out.  Maybe everyone will get their boards (albeit after the network difficulty has gone so high that nobody ever makes their money back without a huge jump in BTC price), or maybe the chips ship today.  At this point I don't have any faith that Bitsyncom will deliver, nor do I think they'll make it right.  I think a lot of people are going to get burned here.
If TH cancels my order and the chips ship the next day, oh well.  That's on me, I won't even be upset over it.

Ok fair enough.  Personal morals/ethics are just that - personal and individual.  To each their own.

Just a few small points - lets say the chips don't arrive.  This isn't a small claims court thing.  If they have to go after Bitsyncom, we're talking most likely years before that's resolved through the courts.  In the meantime, we probably wouldn't see anything (since the money they do have left they would need to use to fund the litigation).  Even after getting a judgment you still have to actually collect on it which isn't as easy as a lot of people think.  We aren't talking months here.

Also, they did not come into this space out of altruism and just wanting to help miners - come on.  They didn't do this out of the goodness of their hearts; they saw a space where tons of profit is being made, they wanted in, they started a business to capitalize on a very profitable business space right now.  They're here for profit.
I'm not saying I want to kill this business, but I'm not going to take blame for killing it.  As I've pointed out in another post, they made some pretty big mistakes in how they started this whole thing, things no business should ever do, and helped themselves into this position.  Not to mention the fact that a small order like mine is hardly going to kill them.

I won't wait around quite frankly.  I've already submitted a request to TH for a refund, reminding them of FTC regulations and stating in no uncertain terms that their no refund policy is in direct violation of said regulations.
If they refuse my refund, or ignore me, I'll just file a chargeback with my CC.  If they have the balls to call me up or email me and threaten me, they'll be given one chance, and one chance only, to cease and desist without me pressing charges for harassment.  I won't f*** with them.  They may be a victim too, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be the patsy losing my money, taking not only my risk, but their risk as well, for their reward.  They built profit into their price for sales, they sold up front and got their cost+profit up front; they took their reward, now it's time to shoulder the risk part.
They want to have the reward of profit, they need to understand that the risk is theirs as well.  We have the risk of non-delivery, and the hassle of having to fight to get our money back; they have the risk of non-delivery and having to give our money back and having to fight bitsyncom for their money back.

That's no different than if I sold my miners as 'pre-orders' with the only guarantee being after I get them but I 'expect' to have them in a month and ship 2 weeks after that, and 'no refunds under any circumstances'.  If I don't deliver the merchandise, I'm liable for the refund 100% in full.  If the buyer, after 2 months, decides they're tired of waiting and files a dispute - guess what?  eBay/paypal/their bank will side with them, and 100% rightfully so.  I took a risk in the hopes of making a profit.  When it goes bad (even if it's not my fault), it's on me NOT my customer.

And just to be clear, I'm not bashing TH on this.  I'm not saying they're bad, or scamming people, or anything of the sort.  This whole situation falls almost 100% on Bitsyncom.
I say almost 100% because TH made a few very grave mistakes and put themselves in this position.

First mistake - starting a business with customer money.  They took a huge order from the one company (I forget the name right now) and used the money to order chips.
Second mistake - not getting a legally binding contract specifying that the customer could not cancel the order once the chips had been ordered, or at least specifying that the customer's recourse would be that they would be given ownership interest in any judgment obtained against Bitsyncom in the event of non-delivery of the chips.

Third mistake - when they got a cancellation demand, opening pre-orders to more people to get funds to cover their refund and their first 2 mistakes, kicking the can forward and putting themselves in an untenable position.  Honestly I don't even see how they could have thought that was a good idea.  Surely you'd see that this is just below the lip of a very very slippery slope.  You've already had one person cancel and put you in a bind, how do you think it's not going to happen again?  How do you think it's legal, or even right, to take other people's money and use it to pay your previous customers knowing damned well that if it goes bad you'll be unable to refund the new customers?  Do you know what that's called?  A ponzi scheme.  Even though it's not investing, it's the same principle.  Using new customers to pay out earlier ones.

I don't believe there was any ill intent on TH part; I don't believe they intended to do bad here.  They were inexperienced, and they allowed their desire to make a profit cloud their judgment and they did things that were bad.
If I started a business without the capital to do so, and used people's preorder money to develop or build my product, and a supplier went bad on me I would 100% expect my customers to demand refunds and fight for them, including suing me for them.  Would it suck?  Would it ruin and bankrupt me?  yes.  I would have to go after my supplier to try to salvage my finances.  That's the way business works, and it's why you NEVER start a business with customer money.  You come up with the capital, you find a way to get what you need on credit, you find a way to get an income to the business without the merchandise (through services or other products that you can deliver) first.  If you can't do that, you admit to yourself that you do not have the resources to undertake the venture.

EDIT: The above is also why a lot of business ventures go looking for venture capital from investors.  That way they're not using customer money to fund the business, they're not doing something illegal.  The investors aren't customers and know there is a real risk of losing all of their money and having nothing to show for it.  They're compensated by ownership interest in the venture.

You have somewhat of a point, except that you fail to acknowledge that Terrahash bears the risk here.
Business is about risk and reward.  The way that a normal business arrangement where this has happened works is this
You open up preorders for something you can't provide until you get parts from somewhere else.
Your supplier fails to provide those parts in a timely fashion, or at all
Your customers get upset or feel that they may never receive their merchandise and request refunds.
They have no business arrangement with your supplier - their business arrangement is with you.  Their recourse for getting their money back is to get it back from you, and legally you are required to provide it.
Your recourse, since you have been harmed in this process, is against your supplier.  In this case, since you've paid with a semi-untraceable currency that isn't official, your option is most likely limited to civil suit

Let's call this the way it is.  Nobody wanting a refund (and using whatever option available to get it) is committing fraud.  They are not harming Terrahash.  They are protecting their assets.
Terrahash is being harmed, to be sure.   It is Bitsyncom that has already harmed Terrahash, and I believe is continuing to harm Terrahash, not the customers.

Terrahash has already implied that they will not be able to refund everyone's money if the Avalon chips never show up.  That, regardless of what anyone here wants to try to convince people, is NOT legal.
No business has the legal right to take people's money, never provide the merchandise, and then say but it's not my fault it's this guy over here so I don't have to give back everyone's money.  I don't have, or see, any problem with someone deciding (in light of what's going on with Bitsyncom and TH admitting if it goes all the way bad they will not be able to refund everyone's money) that this is an unacceptable level of risk to them and they want out.


Now, you can argue but it's not them never providing the merchandise, they're just later than they thought!  ok, great, but how long does one wait before you say ok the merchandise is never coming?  6 months?  1 year?  5 years?  or do you suggest that people just say oh well, I guess if I die and I still haven't gotten my stuff, then I know and it won't matter?
That decision - where to draw the line - is subjective, and unique to each individual.  Personally, I already believe that the avalon chips aren't ever going to materialize in enough volume to fill the orders.  I firmly believe at this point that Bitsyncom, yifu, et al have scammed all of the businesses and the whole community, and are just making excuses to try to settle people down and buy some time - maybe to move the funds to someplace they can't be recovered and get away.

Does it suck for Terrahash?  Yes.  But the law (at least in the US) says that they are on the hook for refunds, regardless of their terms and conditions.  Terms and conditions do not trump federal law and regulations.
Their recourse is to go after Bitsyncom for their losses and the damage to their business.

*IF* this turns out to be a scam, and not just yet another amateur who has no clue of what they're doing, how to run a business, how to treat customers, etc.

realistically, whether the FBI would actually hunt him or not depends on the amount of the reported transaction, what evidence there is, and how many people were to file complaints.
Regardless, if the transaction crosses state lines and is done over a telecommunications device (internet connection qualifies as telecommunications device) or involves bank wire transfers, it is a federal crime that federal authorities would be the ones to persue; it would also be wire fraud which is a felony offense.

This is what I've been trying to say too... It's not about lack of updates or detail by detail accounts, it's about breaking commitments made to the customers.

Yes 'cooling' may need to be provided - in addition to the heatsink.  The idea is the boards come with the heatsink but you may need/want to provide additional cooling (i.e. a fan or 5) depending on different factors - overclocking, high density placement, putting in a small enclosure, running someplace with a high ambient temp, etc