Off-Topic

[riazg]

well I am just about to hit another 700 Feathercoins, so you know what that means   a BTC in the ol wallet coming right up! lol

Nice.

My miners are already back to Litecoin.

My Litecoin miner blew up last night. I am officially out of the business till I find a power supply.

[MinermanNC]

well I am just about to hit another 700 Feathercoins, so you know what that means   a BTC in the ol wallet coming right up! lol

Nice.

My miners are already back to Litecoin.

My Litecoin miner blew up last night. I am officially out of the business till I find a power supply.

Oh no! Newegg 3 days lol...
 
Here ya go, I got this unit about 3 weeks ago to push 2 x 6870,s, doesnt even get warm ... lol,,,good price. so far so good..also bought the 550 model..discontinued..k,

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817342040

[notlist3d]

well I am just about to hit another 700 Feathercoins, so you know what that means   a BTC in the ol wallet coming right up! lol

Nice.

My miners are already back to Litecoin.

My Litecoin miner blew up last night. I am officially out of the business till I find a power supply.

You have something in common with TH's part supply.... no power supplies. 

[justmyname]

well I am just about to hit another 700 Feathercoins, so you know what that means   a BTC in the ol wallet coming right up! lol

Nice.

My miners are already back to Litecoin.

My Litecoin miner blew up last night. I am officially out of the business till I find a power supply.

You have something in common with TH's part supply.... no power supplies.  

Instead of using a computer type power supply. Why not use something like this with plenty of amps? You need about 15 amps for 10 64's with fans.

http://www.magnalight.com/showproduct.aspx?productid=1494&gclid=CPiZi96e_rgCFS9eQgodU0UARQ

[jdape]

I have some extra 18GH/s boards from my paid order #451.  They have expedited shipping and I will drop-ship them to via a pre-labelled and paid Fedex Overnight AM delivery box on the same day I receive the board (if ever!).

I paid via PayPal funds (not a credit card) and have no recourse to supply a refund unless TH provides one.

$1100 each.  Only accepting BTC.  Can provide full proof of all payments, orders, etc.  Also have extra K16's.

PM or email apexio@gmail.com.

[Silvas]

You can try to get a refund, but again I don't condone hurting a small business because of the risk that the customer took. I consider this fraud and won't be part of it.
(The above can be changed if the company advertised falsehoods such as BFL, but so far Terrahash has done nothing wrong (No matter what the "Kooks" will have you think))

Selling the Hardware once Terrahash ships is probably your best bet. People will pay a fairly good amount for HashPower in Hand.

If you are feeling a little brave and risky, you can mine with your hardware for 2-3 Weeks after receiving it and then Sell it for a decent price. As long as No HUGE players like KnC Ship during this timeframe you might come out ahead of just selling it when receiving.

Either way, there are still plenty of options. Hell if KnC misses their deadline this Unit could pay for itself easily. (I don't think KnC will miss that deadline)

That being said a 75% linear monthly difficulty increase isn't going to stay that way past maybe 3-4 months. Then it will level off unless you see some other big players selling $2/GH units. (Could happen!)

You have somewhat of a point, except that you fail to acknowledge that Terrahash bears the risk here.
Business is about risk and reward.  The way that a normal business arrangement where this has happened works is this
You open up preorders for something you can't provide until you get parts from somewhere else.
Your supplier fails to provide those parts in a timely fashion, or at all
Your customers get upset or feel that they may never receive their merchandise and request refunds.
They have no business arrangement with your supplier - their business arrangement is with you.  Their recourse for getting their money back is to get it back from you, and legally you are required to provide it.
Your recourse, since you have been harmed in this process, is against your supplier.  In this case, since you've paid with a semi-untraceable currency that isn't official, your option is most likely limited to civil suit

Let's call this the way it is.  Nobody wanting a refund (and using whatever option available to get it) is committing fraud.  They are not harming Terrahash.  They are protecting their assets.
Terrahash is being harmed, to be sure.   It is Bitsyncom that has already harmed Terrahash, and I believe is continuing to harm Terrahash, not the customers.

Terrahash has already implied that they will not be able to refund everyone's money if the Avalon chips never show up.  That, regardless of what anyone here wants to try to convince people, is NOT legal.
No business has the legal right to take people's money, never provide the merchandise, and then say but it's not my fault it's this guy over here so I don't have to give back everyone's money.  I don't have, or see, any problem with someone deciding (in light of what's going on with Bitsyncom and TH admitting if it goes all the way bad they will not be able to refund everyone's money) that this is an unacceptable level of risk to them and they want out.


Now, you can argue but it's not them never providing the merchandise, they're just later than they thought!  ok, great, but how long does one wait before you say ok the merchandise is never coming?  6 months?  1 year?  5 years?  or do you suggest that people just say oh well, I guess if I die and I still haven't gotten my stuff, then I know and it won't matter?
That decision - where to draw the line - is subjective, and unique to each individual.  Personally, I already believe that the avalon chips aren't ever going to materialize in enough volume to fill the orders.  I firmly believe at this point that Bitsyncom, yifu, et al have scammed all of the businesses and the whole community, and are just making excuses to try to settle people down and buy some time - maybe to move the funds to someplace they can't be recovered and get away.

Does it suck for Terrahash?  Yes.  But the law (at least in the US) says that they are on the hook for refunds, regardless of their terms and conditions.  Terms and conditions do not trump federal law and regulations.
Their recourse is to go after Bitsyncom for their losses and the damage to their business.

[kendog77]

You can try to get a refund, but again I don't condone hurting a small business because of the risk that the customer took. I consider this fraud and won't be part of it.
(The above can be changed if the company advertised falsehoods such as BFL, but so far Terrahash has done nothing wrong (No matter what the "Kooks" will have you think))

Selling the Hardware once Terrahash ships is probably your best bet. People will pay a fairly good amount for HashPower in Hand.

If you are feeling a little brave and risky, you can mine with your hardware for 2-3 Weeks after receiving it and then Sell it for a decent price. As long as No HUGE players like KnC Ship during this timeframe you might come out ahead of just selling it when receiving.

Either way, there are still plenty of options. Hell if KnC misses their deadline this Unit could pay for itself easily. (I don't think KnC will miss that deadline)

That being said a 75% linear monthly difficulty increase isn't going to stay that way past maybe 3-4 months. Then it will level off unless you see some other big players selling $2/GH units. (Could happen!)

You have somewhat of a point, except that you fail to acknowledge that Terrahash bears the risk here.
Business is about risk and reward.  The way that a normal business arrangement where this has happened works is this
You open up preorders for something you can't provide until you get parts from somewhere else.
Your supplier fails to provide those parts in a timely fashion, or at all
Your customers get upset or feel that they may never receive their merchandise and request refunds.
They have no business arrangement with your supplier - their business arrangement is with you.  Their recourse for getting their money back is to get it back from you, and legally you are required to provide it.
Your recourse, since you have been harmed in this process, is against your supplier.  In this case, since you've paid with a semi-untraceable currency that isn't official, your option is most likely limited to civil suit

Let's call this the way it is.  Nobody wanting a refund (and using whatever option available to get it) is committing fraud.  They are not harming Terrahash.  They are protecting their assets.
Terrahash is being harmed, to be sure.   It is Bitsyncom that has already harmed Terrahash, and I believe is continuing to harm Terrahash, not the customers.

Terrahash has already implied that they will not be able to refund everyone's money if the Avalon chips never show up.  That, regardless of what anyone here wants to try to convince people, is NOT legal.
No business has the legal right to take people's money, never provide the merchandise, and then say but it's not my fault it's this guy over here so I don't have to give back everyone's money.  I don't have, or see, any problem with someone deciding (in light of what's going on with Bitsyncom and TH admitting if it goes all the way bad they will not be able to refund everyone's money) that this is an unacceptable level of risk to them and they want out.


Now, you can argue but it's not them never providing the merchandise, they're just later than they thought!  ok, great, but how long does one wait before you say ok the merchandise is never coming?  6 months?  1 year?  5 years?  or do you suggest that people just say oh well, I guess if I die and I still haven't gotten my stuff, then I know and it won't matter?
That decision - where to draw the line - is subjective, and unique to each individual.  Personally, I already believe that the avalon chips aren't ever going to materialize in enough volume to fill the orders.  I firmly believe at this point that Bitsyncom, yifu, et al have scammed all of the businesses and the whole community, and are just making excuses to try to settle people down and buy some time - maybe to move the funds to someplace they can't be recovered and get away.

Does it suck for Terrahash?  Yes.  But the law (at least in the US) says that they are on the hook for refunds, regardless of their terms and conditions.  Terms and conditions do not trump federal law and regulations.
Their recourse is to go after Bitsyncom for their losses and the damage to their business.

I completely agree with everything you wrote above. For Terrahash to imply that buyers should be happy to get partial refunds if Avalon doesn't deliver is absurd. Avalon is nothing but a Terrahash part supplier, and we bought from Terrahash.

I just hope it doesn't come to that and Avalon manages to ship Terrahash bulk chip orders within the next week or two...

[atomicchaos]

Does it suck for Terrahash?  Yes.  But the law (at least in the US) says that they are on the hook for refunds, regardless of their terms and conditions.  Terms and conditions do not trump federal law and regulations.
Their recourse is to go after Bitsyncom for their losses and the damage to their business.

+1 - Well stated message and agree with the entire post.

[ak49er]

While all or most of what Silvas says is true, there's also the little matter of reality.  And getting a grasp on reality is very much the responsibility of everyone.

• People bought from Terrahash in good faith expecting a certain delivery date, but knowing the product didn't exist.
• Delivery didn't happen, and who knows right now when delivery will or will not take place?
• People want refunds, but Terrahash can't/won't give refunds.  Most of their money is tied up in orders or components.
• So your choices are right now to ride it out or take legal action.
• Riding it out means waiting until Avalon delivers, or Terrahash calls it quits.
• If Terrahash calls it quits they still have to get a refund from Avalon before you'll see anything.
• If you take legal action it will probably take longer than waiting for Avalon, and cost you more.
• Terrahash's obligation to you is to meet the product specification, (delivery being a separate issue).  I seriously doubt that any of you have a contract with them protecting you against loss of income for delayed product.
• These are the risks that you undertake in buying anything from an unproven source, regardless of their responsibilities or obligations.
• Crying about it doesn't get you anywhere.  Shit or get off the pot.

And if any of you are interested I've got a bridge to sell ....

[Silvas]

And just to be clear, I'm not bashing TH on this.  I'm not saying they're bad, or scamming people, or anything of the sort.  This whole situation falls almost 100% on Bitsyncom.
I say almost 100% because TH made a few very grave mistakes and put themselves in this position.

First mistake - starting a business with customer money.  They took a huge order from the one company (I forget the name right now) and used the money to order chips.
Second mistake - not getting a legally binding contract specifying that the customer could not cancel the order once the chips had been ordered, or at least specifying that the customer's recourse would be that they would be given ownership interest in any judgment obtained against Bitsyncom in the event of non-delivery of the chips.

Third mistake - when they got a cancellation demand, opening pre-orders to more people to get funds to cover their refund and their first 2 mistakes, kicking the can forward and putting themselves in an untenable position.  Honestly I don't even see how they could have thought that was a good idea.  Surely you'd see that this is just below the lip of a very very slippery slope.  You've already had one person cancel and put you in a bind, how do you think it's not going to happen again?  How do you think it's legal, or even right, to take other people's money and use it to pay your previous customers knowing damned well that if it goes bad you'll be unable to refund the new customers?  Do you know what that's called?  A ponzi scheme.  Even though it's not investing, it's the same principle.  Using new customers to pay out earlier ones.

I don't believe there was any ill intent on TH part; I don't believe they intended to do bad here.  They were inexperienced, and they allowed their desire to make a profit cloud their judgment and they did things that were bad.
If I started a business without the capital to do so, and used people's preorder money to develop or build my product, and a supplier went bad on me I would 100% expect my customers to demand refunds and fight for them, including suing me for them.  Would it suck?  Would it ruin and bankrupt me?  yes.  I would have to go after my supplier to try to salvage my finances.  That's the way business works, and it's why you NEVER start a business with customer money.  You come up with the capital, you find a way to get what you need on credit, you find a way to get an income to the business without the merchandise (through services or other products that you can deliver) first.  If you can't do that, you admit to yourself that you do not have the resources to undertake the venture.

EDIT: The above is also why a lot of business ventures go looking for venture capital from investors.  That way they're not using customer money to fund the business, they're not doing something illegal.  The investors aren't customers and know there is a real risk of losing all of their money and having nothing to show for it.  They're compensated by ownership interest in the venture.

[kkooks]

And just to be clear, I'm not bashing TH on this.  I'm not saying they're bad, or scamming people, or anything of the sort.  This whole situation falls almost 100% on Bitsyncom.
I say almost 100% because TH made a few very grave mistakes and put themselves in this position.

First mistake - starting a business with customer money.  They took a huge order from the one company (I forget the name right now) and used the money to order chips.
Second mistake - not getting a legally binding contract specifying that the customer could not cancel the order once the chips had been ordered, or at least specifying that the customer's recourse would be that they would be given ownership interest in any judgment obtained against Bitsyncom in the event of non-delivery of the chips.

Third mistake - when they got a cancellation demand, opening pre-orders to more people to get funds to cover their refund and their first 2 mistakes, kicking the can forward and putting themselves in an untenable position.  Honestly I don't even see how they could have thought that was a good idea.  Surely you'd see that this is just below the lip of a very very slippery slope.  You've already had one person cancel and put you in a bind, how do you think it's not going to happen again?  How do you think it's legal, or even right, to take other people's money and use it to pay your previous customers knowing damned well that if it goes bad you'll be unable to refund the new customers?  Do you know what that's called?  A ponzi scheme.  Even though it's not investing, it's the same principle.  Using new customers to pay out earlier ones.

I don't believe there was any ill intent on TH part; I don't believe they intended to do bad here.  They were inexperienced, and they allowed their desire to make a profit cloud their judgment and they did things that were bad.
If I started a business without the capital to do so, and used people's preorder money to develop or build my product, and a supplier went bad on me I would 100% expect my customers to demand refunds and fight for them, including suing me for them.  Would it suck?  Would it ruin and bankrupt me?  yes.  I would have to go after my supplier to try to salvage my finances.  That's the way business works, and it's why you NEVER start a business with customer money.  You come up with the capital, you find a way to get what you need on credit, you find a way to get an income to the business without the merchandise (through services or other products that you can deliver) first.  If you can't do that, you admit to yourself that you do not have the resources to undertake the venture.

All business hopefuls read this. Ethics prevails.

[AtomSea]

I purchased a K16 and a K64.

Besides a powersupply, what else do I need to get to get her to thrash?

I have a Dell mini laptop that I am going to use as a miner (gonna play with a raspi too, but gonna start mining with the miniDell first)

What cords do I need?

And when the time comes (pretty sure it will), what music should I play when I am setting it all up?

[Bitcoinorama]

I purchased a K16 and a K64.

Besides a powersupply, what else do I need to get to get her to thrash?

I have a Dell mini laptop that I am going to use as a miner (gonna play with a raspi too, but gonna start mining with the miniDell first)

What cords do I need?

And when the time comes (pretty sure it will), what music should I play when I am setting it all up?

Here's the music sorted; http://youtu.be/6cGTsX3O-2E

[MinermanNC]

I purchased a K16 and a K64.

Besides a powersupply, what else do I need to get to get her to thrash?

I have a Dell mini laptop that I am going to use as a miner (gonna play with a raspi too, but gonna start mining with the miniDell first)

What cords do I need?

And when the time comes (pretty sure it will), what music should I play when I am setting it all up?

Here's the music sorted; http://youtu.be/6cGTsX3O-2E

thats about how long it should take to get everything set up and be hashing Atom,,, right    maybe ill try it....

[MinermanNC]

While all or most of what Silvas says is true, there's also the little matter of reality.  And getting a grasp on reality is very much the responsibility of everyone.

• People bought from Terrahash in good faith expecting a certain delivery date, but knowing the product didn't exist.
• Delivery didn't happen, and who knows right now when delivery will or will not take place?
• People want refunds, but Terrahash can't/won't give refunds.  Most of their money is tied up in orders or components.
• So your choices are right now to ride it out or take legal action.
• Riding it out means waiting until Avalon delivers, or Terrahash calls it quits.
• If Terrahash calls it quits they still have to get a refund from Avalon before you'll see anything.
• If you take legal action it will probably take longer than waiting for Avalon, and cost you more.
• Terrahash's obligation to you is to meet the product specification, (delivery being a separate issue).  I seriously doubt that any of you have a contract with them protecting you against loss of income for delayed product.
• These are the risks that you undertake in buying anything from an unproven source, regardless of their responsibilities or obligations.
• Crying about it doesn't get you anywhere.  Shit or get off the pot.

And if any of you are interested I've got a bridge to sell ....

lol,,ya the "bridge to nowhere"

[notlist3d]

While all or most of what Silvas says is true, there's also the little matter of reality.  And getting a grasp on reality is very much the responsibility of everyone.

• People bought from Terrahash in good faith expecting a certain delivery date, but knowing the product didn't exist.
• Delivery didn't happen, and who knows right now when delivery will or will not take place?
• People want refunds, but Terrahash can't/won't give refunds.  Most of their money is tied up in orders or components.
• So your choices are right now to ride it out or take legal action.
• Riding it out means waiting until Avalon delivers, or Terrahash calls it quits.
• If Terrahash calls it quits they still have to get a refund from Avalon before you'll see anything.
• If you take legal action it will probably take longer than waiting for Avalon, and cost you more.
• Terrahash's obligation to you is to meet the product specification, (delivery being a separate issue).  I seriously doubt that any of you have a contract with them protecting you against loss of income for delayed product.
• These are the risks that you undertake in buying anything from an unproven source, regardless of their responsibilities or obligations.
• Crying about it doesn't get you anywhere.  Shit or get off the pot.

And if any of you are interested I've got a bridge to sell ....

lol,,ya the "bridge to nowhere"

What will be intresting is if they ever do partial refunds, the reason they cited for not having all the parts on hand for production.  If this was like they sold everything would be waiting at assembly line waiting on chips.

When you think about it bkk is the one who did the main work, developing the board.  TH really had no R/D costs, they ordered one case put together a partial board throwing hw errors.   TH maybe rented a office?  Their chip order even half they now say they never ordered.... but at one point said it was ordered.  So who knows what is ordered.  So it will be intresting to see what they subtract if they do partial refund

I am willing to bet if you do get lucky and get partial refund, the majority of money kept goes to salary.  And salary for what bkk did the work developing.  They chances are will take a big chunk for sitting there in front of computer screen, and rejecting refunds? 

And to be fair i may be jaded on my opinion because of how they threatened me when i got my paypal refund long ago. 

[Silvas]

What will be intresting is if they ever do partial refunds, the reason they cited for not having all the parts on hand for production.  If this was like they sold everything would be waiting at assembly line waiting on chips.

When you think about it bkk is the one who did the main work, developing the board.  TH really had no R/D costs, they ordered one case put together a partial board throwing hw errors.   TH maybe rented a office?  Their chip order even half they now say they never ordered.... but at one point said it was ordered.  So who knows what is ordered.  So it will be intresting to see what they subtract if they do partial refund

I am willing to bet if you do get lucky and get partial refund, the majority of money kept goes to salary.  And salary for what bkk did the work developing.  They chances are will take a big chunk for sitting there in front of computer screen, and rejecting refunds? 

And to be fair i may be jaded on my opinion because of how they threatened me when i got my paypal refund long ago. 

I won't wait around quite frankly.  I've already submitted a request to TH for a refund, reminding them of FTC regulations and stating in no uncertain terms that their no refund policy is in direct violation of said regulations.
If they refuse my refund, or ignore me, I'll just file a chargeback with my CC.  If they have the balls to call me up or email me and threaten me, they'll be given one chance, and one chance only, to cease and desist without me pressing charges for harassment.  I won't f*** with them.  They may be a victim too, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be the patsy losing my money, taking not only my risk, but their risk as well, for their reward.  They built profit into their price for sales, they sold up front and got their cost+profit up front; they took their reward, now it's time to shoulder the risk part.
They want to have the reward of profit, they need to understand that the risk is theirs as well.  We have the risk of non-delivery, and the hassle of having to fight to get our money back; they have the risk of non-delivery and having to give our money back and having to fight bitsyncom for their money back.

That's no different than if I sold my miners as 'pre-orders' with the only guarantee being after I get them but I 'expect' to have them in a month and ship 2 weeks after that, and 'no refunds under any circumstances'.  If I don't deliver the merchandise, I'm liable for the refund 100% in full.  If the buyer, after 2 months, decides they're tired of waiting and files a dispute - guess what?  eBay/paypal/their bank will side with them, and 100% rightfully so.  I took a risk in the hopes of making a profit.  When it goes bad (even if it's not my fault), it's on me NOT my customer.

[notlist3d]

What will be intresting is if they ever do partial refunds, the reason they cited for not having all the parts on hand for production.  If this was like they sold everything would be waiting at assembly line waiting on chips.

When you think about it bkk is the one who did the main work, developing the board.  TH really had no R/D costs, they ordered one case put together a partial board throwing hw errors.   TH maybe rented a office?  Their chip order even half they now say they never ordered.... but at one point said it was ordered.  So who knows what is ordered.  So it will be intresting to see what they subtract if they do partial refund

I am willing to bet if you do get lucky and get partial refund, the majority of money kept goes to salary.  And salary for what bkk did the work developing.  They chances are will take a big chunk for sitting there in front of computer screen, and rejecting refunds?  

And to be fair i may be jaded on my opinion because of how they threatened me when i got my paypal refund long ago.  

I won't wait around quite frankly.  I've already submitted a request to TH for a refund, reminding them of FTC regulations and stating in no uncertain terms that their no refund policy is in direct violation of said regulations.
If they refuse my refund, or ignore me, I'll just file a chargeback with my CC.  If they have the balls to call me up or email me and threaten me, they'll be given one chance, and one chance only, to cease and desist without me pressing charges for harassment.  I won't f*** with them.  They may be a victim too, but I'll be damned if I'm going to be the patsy losing my money, taking not only my risk, but their risk as well, for their reward.  They built profit into their price for sales, they sold up front and got their cost+profit up front; they took their reward, now it's time to shoulder the risk part.
They want to have the reward of profit, they need to understand that the risk is theirs as well.  We have the risk of non-delivery, and the hassle of having to fight to get our money back; they have the risk of non-delivery and having to give our money back and having to fight bitsyncom for their money back.

That's no different than if I sold my miners as 'pre-orders' with the only guarantee being after I get them but I 'expect' to have them in a month and ship 2 weeks after that, and 'no refunds under any circumstances'.  If I don't deliver the merchandise, I'm liable for the refund 100% in full.  If the buyer, after 2 months, decides they're tired of waiting and files a dispute - guess what?  eBay/paypal/their bank will side with them, and 100% rightfully so.  I took a risk in the hopes of making a profit.  When it goes bad (even if it's not my fault), it's on me NOT my customer.

On refund they will not care.  I asked them very nicely to work within paypal when doing my refund.  A dispute they could have cared less about.  Once i went to a claim they finally emailed me threatening me.  Basically saying take the claim down or risk losing all my money if paypal didn't side with me. (granted I am no lawyer nor play one on tv so how they meant for it to come out... i cannot say their intent only guess).  In the end they never once responded in paypal made me wait a long time, and paypal sided with me.  I did all of this when they were having troubles producing proof as they promised and they had paypal trouble.

If you have any recourse left for refund CC or other i would pull trigger sooner rather then later.  I feel sorry for those who trusted TH with bitcoins for order.  If they are there everyday and they are not working on board what are they doing? (again big props to bkk he is the true genius and i honestly hope another company comes around and is able to produce that is trustworthy).  Think what are they doing not ordering parts, not making product, not giving refunds, sitting there getting salary and office.  And who knows what their salary and expenses will be claimed as is if they do some kind of partial refund.

Even if they receive chips tomorrow they still wont be ready for production.  End of threatened customer rant, my advice get your refund cut your losses as soon as you are able to assuming you still have a way.

[krayzie32]

You have something in common with TH's part supply.... no power supplies. 

Not like you can't get PSUs next day or 2 day from Amazon or anything.   

[threedrules]

read marto74 received sample chips too, hope this isnt just a sweetner by avalon