NXT is an experimental attempt to create a stable economic system. This is a completely different proposition than creating a fair social system. Good luck trying to merge the two.
From my perspective the "fairness" or not is not even a consideration. I am trying to "protect the network" and "the blockchain" only. I am right there with you. That is the bedrock foundation of making NXT a stable financial system. |
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what if we were to come to the forging issue from a different angle:
The problem as defined here is HOW to keep a small NXT holder (whose motivation is financial and not ideological) interested in maintaining the network?
Another problem (for some at least) was the holding size of larger stakeholders which means that the rich will get richer and the small guy will not make enough.
How do we tackle this? we need to find a solution that will consider both issues: give a chance to the low balance guy to make enough from forging and be motivated while also allowing a chance for a higher balance holder or pool to enjoy suitable returns. we also need enough machines... hence the pool idea.
We also need to remember that high balance individuals have a vesting interest that the network will prosper which means that their equity is worth more. so the motivation there is not only forging rights.
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The conceptual solution is to create a completely random, lottery like, naturally decentralized algorithm that will assign fees randomly per transaction to any 1NXT in the system without consideration to any holder's NXT balance
Naturally- if you have more NXT you will gravitate toward having better chances to win the transaction fee
However, if you are a low balance guy you KNOW that you can win more fees than your relative holding size.
This will both provide motivation to the low balance holders that at any given moment can win a larger fee than the relative size of their account, and they will stay on and open for that extra chance--- while also take care (statistically) of the higher balance people but from a decentralized perspective- i.e. the system wouldnt care who has more NXT because it will randomly divide fees between all NXT in the system, 1 fraction at a time and not in any particular order-- which will allow for someone to win more than his "natural" share at any given time
Maybe the system can also be programmed to automatically reduce/increase fees above/below a given number of transactions per hour or 24 hours to naturally attract more forging if number of network points decline. However, When there are enough transactions in the system and the network is both lucrative and stable everyone will be happy.
Dont know if this is at all possible and maybe this is nonsense........... but conceptually it seems to be solving issues for all stakeholders by catering to both needs
Never forget that NXT (unlike BTC) is a ZERO SUM system. There are no new coins every X minutes being created by mining. This means that if you gimmick the system to put more NXT in one guy's pocket, it means there is less NXT going in somebody else's pocket. This naturally leads to BTCNext's First Law: "For every increased incentive created in one part of the NXT system, there is an equal and opposite disincentive created elsewhere in the NXT system".If you haven't identified the disincentive created by your ideas to improve somebody's lot, you haven't done your homework. The current system assures that EVERYBODY GETS THE SAME RETURN ON THEIR INVESTMENT. For a first cut at distributing forging rewards, this is a pretty good idea. Every NXT holder has the opportunity, (if EVERYBODY were to forge simultaneously) to get the same ROI, the SAME interest rate on their "savings account". Saying the "rich will get richer and the small guy will not make enough" is a TRUE STATEMENT, and also a snapshot of the Achilles heel of a Proof of Stake system (and many if not most national fiat currencies). It is also true to say, "Both the rich guy and the small guy are getting the same savings account interest rate on their stockpiled, saved NXT". So the current system has an element of equality in it as well as an element of perceived injustice. NXT is an experimental attempt to create a stable economic system. This is a completely different proposition than creating a fair social system. Good luck trying to merge the two. |
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Am I forging right? I bought a BTC worth of NXT a few days ago, so I have around 11.5k. All I have to do is leave on my NXT client (NRS 0.7.6) and forging will happen by itself? The past few pages have been talking about how to change up forging to be more profitable... but my question is, how do I check on the progress of my forging?
Thanks! And happy NXTing!
If you leave your client on for 24 hours (1440 minutes) then you are forging. Your client is broadcasting its availability to forge the next block, and there is a lottery system going on once a minute behind the scenes that your 11.5K NXT is participating in to win you the right to forge the next block. Wait long enough, you will win that lottery at some particular minute, and you will forge a block. As for monitoring your "progress" - I am not sure if you can really do that. The two arrows represents "transactions in and out of your account". The globe / peers is just an item of general interest - your client is not communicating with all the computers on the NXT network, only this subset. The puzzle piece is data about the most recently forged blocks. |
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BUMP. This is critical to not only get put in the NXT wiki, but for people to actually GO to it and WORK on it. |
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So what is the most sensible solution?
We are discussing right now what we should discuss. Don't rush things. This is an extremely wise statement. Brainstorming is an art. |
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yes.. we're searching to a donations/bounties to run a node .. or to forge ( help the Nxt server ) .
 I think this is a bad idea. Either the network/nxt itself can care of or this will fail. I think isn't a bad idea .. more donations / bounties = more node . Why this idea is a bad idea What happens when you run out of funds for donations / bounties? The T word - taxes. You raise them. For NXT, these are "user fees". |
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NXT FUNDING COMMITTEE VOTE IS COMING MARCH 1Remaining eligible nominees with as-yet undeclared intentions (PM me if you want off this list): 2Kool4Skewl, Arckam_(frmelin), bitcoinpaul, buybitcoinscanada, Cointropolis_JustabitTime, Come-from-Beyond
Damelon, davethetrousers, drevil, ferment, Fry, hughmanwho, Jean-Luc, jl777, Klee, landomata, laowai80, msin, mww
nexern, opticalcarrier, PeercoinEnthusiast, Pouncer, Ricot, SecondLeo, smaragda, VanBreuk, ZeroTheGreat
Something Zahlen said: A candidate does not need to be good at writing English. Some candidates may not have English as their mother tongue. If you're voting, don't confuse lots of writing for ability to judge the worth of a project. Remember that ultimately the committee's job is to decide which projects get funded. If you are on this list and want to be on a NXT funding committee, go here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=479167.msg5280476#msg5280476Background: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg5280786#msg5280786ONE CANDIDATE NEEDED IN TECHDEV FOR FULL SLATE(This is why a crazed rickyjames decreed a week of forced campaigning before the vote during his blatant dictatorial takeover of this thread). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_slateGood luck to these nominees who have declared themselves candidates:
NXTmarketingfund: allwelder, Damelon, Mario123, Asian Prepper, joefox, brooklynbct, CoinTropolis_NiftyNikel, Uniqueorn, salsacz
NXTtechdevfund: EmoneyRu, Anon136, l8orre, abuelau, antanst
NXTinfrastructurefund: rickyjames, chanc3r, EvilDave, pandaisftw, ChuckOne, ^[GS]^
Yeah, you may have seen this before. I'll be putting it up every ten pages or so. It's one of those "legitimate, transparent process" things.
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NXT FUNDING COMMITTEE VOTE IS COMING MARCH 1Remaining eligible nominees with as-yet undeclared intentions (PM me if you want off this list): 2Kool4Skewl, Arckam_(frmelin), bitcoinpaul, buybitcoinscanada, Cointropolis_JustabitTime, Come-from-Beyond
Damelon, davethetrousers, drevil, ferment, Fry, hughmanwho, Jean-Luc, jl777, Klee, landomata, laowai80, msin, mww
nexern, opticalcarrier, PeercoinEnthusiast, pinarello, Pouncer, Ricot, salsacz, SecondLeo, smaragda, VanBreuk, ZeroTheGreat
Something Zahlen said: A candidate does not need to be good at writing English. Some candidates may not have English as their mother tongue. If you're voting, don't confuse lots of writing for ability to judge the worth of a project. Remember that ultimately the committee's job is to decide which projects get funded. If you are on this list and want to be on a NXT funding committee, go here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=479167.msg5280476#msg5280476Background: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg5280786#msg5280786Good luck to these nominees who have declared themselves candidates:
NXTmarketingfund: allwelder, Damelon, Mario123, Asian Prepper, joefox, brooklynbct, CoinTropolis_NiftyNikel, Uniqueorn
NXTtechdevfund: EmoneyRu, Anon136, l8orre, abuelau
NXTinfrastructurefund: rickyjames, chanc3r, EvilDave, pandaisftw, ChuckOne, ^[GS]^
Yeah, you may have seen this before. I'll be putting it up every ten pages or so. It's one of those "legitimate, transparent process" things.
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Please run for infrastructure committee! These are some cool ideas. We might get emergent behavior from a self-organizing network.
Thanks James. This is the stuff I know from my time in telco and real time finance and am interested in (apart from Nxtopia  )... I thought this stuff was techdev because its software, but if its infrastructure I'll drop ricky a note about switching although I think that group already has some strong and well respected candidates. I second that, otherwise I might have to put myself up as candidate for infrastructure committee. (I'm not joking, can't let RJ be supreme lord of infrastructure all by his ownsome) Curses! I would have gotten away with it all, if not for you little kids! |
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NXT FUNDING COMMITTEE VOTE IS COMING MARCH 1Remaining eligible nominees with as-yet undeclared intentions (PM me if you want off this list): ^[GS]^, 2Kool4Skewl, Arckam_(frmelin), bitcoinpaul, buybitcoinscanada
ChuckOne, Cointropolis_JustabitTime, Come-from-Beyond
Damelon, davethetrousers, drevil, EvilDave, ferment, Fry, hughmanwho, Jean-Luc,
jl777, Klee, landomata, laowai80, msin, mww
nexern, opticalcarrier, Pandaisftw, PeercoinEnthusiast, pinarello, Pouncer, Ricot, salsacz
SecondLeo, smaragda, Uniqueorn, VanBreuk, ZeroTheGreat
Something Zahlen said: A candidate does not need to be good at writing English. Some candidates may not have English as their mother tongue. If you're voting, don't confuse lots of writing for ability to judge the worth of a project. Remember that ultimately the committee's job is to decide which projects get funded. If you are on this list and want to be on a NXT funding committee, go here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=479167.msg5280476#msg5280476Background: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=345619.msg5280786#msg5280786Good luck to these nominees who have declared themselves candidates:
NXTmarketingfund: allwelder, Damelon, Mario123, Asian Prepper, joefox, brooklynbct, CoinTropolis_NiftyNikel
NXTtechdevfund: EmoneyRu, Anon136, l8orre, abuelau
NXTinfrastructurefund: rickyjames, chanc3r
Yeah, you may have seen this before. I'll be putting it up every ten pages or so. It's one of those "legitimate, transparent process" things.
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I pay 20 dollar per month for 2MB VPS. Because i belive in nxt ecosystem
The quetión is whether we can increase the number of transactions per block to 100
The question is whether a 1900 nxt node will want to wait a year to forge
The question is whether the value will rise soon nxt 1 dollar
The question is profitable to keep the funds in an account standing. which is the opportunity cost
Keep thinking. You've got $1900 in cash. How much can somebody make per month with $1900 spent on joining a DOGE pool instead of acquiring a stake in NXT? NXT is in competition with the real world running on a profit motive. Believers in the NXT ecosystem are going to be running at a loss, month after month... is much better nxt ecosystem. the cost of maintaining the network is a lot more economical. inflation is a lot smaller. I agree. I agree. I agree. Believers in the NXT ecosystem are going to be running at a loss, month after month... What do you suggest then? Recognition by all that node support of NXT is not going to work as a reward based system. Trying to come up with the cheapest possible support node architecture that will get the job done, whatever "the job" is. Only when you know what node support really costs, can you start designing a system to pay for it. Everybody is worried about paying enough towards the forgers to keep them motivated. We need to worry first about paying enough towards the network to keep it alive. |
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rickyjames: print the form, fill the form, scan the form, send it to Stephen  Nifty was also in a phone contact with Paul, so lets wait for his news too Done. I am in email contact with Nifty too. |
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I pay 20 dollar per month for 2MB VPS. Because i belive in nxt ecosystem
The quetión is whether we can increase the number of transactions per block to 100
The question is whether a 1900 nxt node will want to wait a year to forge
The question is whether the value will rise soon nxt 1 dollar
The question is profitable to keep the funds in an account standing. which is the opportunity cost
Keep thinking. You've got $1900 in cash. How much can somebody make per month with $1900 spent on joining a DOGE pool instead of acquiring a stake in NXT? NXT is in competition with the real world running on a profit motive. Believers in the NXT ecosystem are going to be running at a loss, month after month... is much better nxt ecosystem. the cost of maintaining the network is a lot more economical. inflation is a lot smaller. I agree. I agree. I agree. Believers in the NXT ecosystem are going to be running at a loss, month after month... |
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to put it in numbers
Account 1900 Nxt
1440 blocs per day
1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)
If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar
Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 100 Nxt = 100 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)
Keep thinking. You had to run this node for a year, so the 100 dollars has to cover a monthly operations cost of 100/12 = $8.33 per month So.... IF the block you capture once a year has 100 NXT in fees in it and IF each NXT is worth $1 and IF your monthly hardware amortization, bandwidth costs, and electricity costs are less than $8.33 per month Then you made a monthly profit = $8.33 - monthly server costs Anybody out there running a VPN for less than $8.33 per month? I pay 20 dollar per month for 2MB VPS. Because i belive in nxt ecosystem The quetión is whether we can increase the number of transactions per block to 100 The question is whether a 1900 nxt node will want to wait a year to forge The question is whether the value will rise soon nxt 1 dollar The question is profitable to keep the funds in an account standing. which is the opportunity cost Keep thinking. You've got $1900 in cash. How much can somebody make per month with $1900 spent on joining a DOGE pool instead of acquiring a stake in NXT? NXT is in competition with the real world running on a profit motive. Believers in the NXT ecosystem are going to be running at a loss, month after month... |
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Damelon: hours and hours of communication Ricky was informed on 18th of Feb how it works. Currently Nifty is dealing with Paul (organisator), we signed a form in Berlin, but he hasn't sent a payment info yet Salsa, the form you signed says payment is due on signing and the signed form is to be sent to Steven Wilkinson at Steven@TexasBitcoinConference.com so that he can register the Sponsor and send the Sponsor an invoice. Did you ever send a copy of the signed form to Steven? I sent it to you and told you to fill your name (and telephone?) there so you could send it to Steven (" There still needs to be filled info about Nxt speaker there."). Did you fill it and sent it to Steven? You did not know my email address when you signed in Berlin, but you obviously knew my email address when you emailed it to me (after my repeated request), so I thought you were going to fill my email address in and send it on. Once I heard you had talked with Paul Snow in Berlin about me speaking, I sent both him and the "TBC speaker" email address several emails with my full name, email address, biography and photo for use in his promotional materials, and I clearly identified myself as the NXT representative that had been coordinated in Berlin. Your email to me read: "Hi, here is a contract between Nxt and texas conf. There still needs to be filled info about Nxt speaker there. salsa" So, no, I did not send the form in to Steven. I did not know I was supposed to. If we need a fall guy to take the blame over this mixup then I will take the blame. My bad. This is now water under the bridge. Let's move on. It is probably too late to do anything about getting NXT officially involved in TBC now. You haven't sent them $1000 and they haven't listed me as a speaker. They have received no logo from us so we are not in their promotional literature. We can still go in, shake hands, pass out business cards, hand out 200 flyers, and listen to Vitalik Buterin speak to everybody at TBC about Etherium. Bottom line is that you have not spent any money yet on this conference and you have 20K NXT budgeted for it. Passes at the door are $350 each and we need two, for me and Asian Prepper. That's $700 or a $300 savings over what you were going to pay. I suggest that you abandon attempts to get TBC to take the $1000 you haven't actually sent yet and instead send $700 of NXT to me at 16092180239932658439 so I can just get two door passes. I await your directions. |
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Damelon: hours and hours of communication Ricky was informed on 18th of Feb how it works. Currently Nifty is dealing with Paul (organisator), we signed a form in Berlin, but he hasn't sent a payment info yet Salsa, the form you signed says payment is due on signing and the signed form is to be sent to Steven Wilkinson at Steven@TexasBitcoinConference.com so that he can register the Sponsor and send the Sponsor an invoice. Did you ever send a copy of the signed form to Steven? |
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to put it in numbers
Account 1900 Nxt
1440 blocs per day
1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt
fee per bloc (For example) 100
Profit per year 5.3%
5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)
If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar
Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 1 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost)
When is the change of fee planned to 0.1 NXT? I think if NXT is been calculated more in decimals behind the comma(point), 1 NXT will get more valuable. Pure psychological. sorry  to put it in numbers Account 1900 Nxt 1440 blocs per day 1 blocs per year with 1900 Nxt fee per bloc (For example) 100 Profit per year 5.3% 5.3% must greater than cost of maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost) If 1 Nxt = 1 dollar Account with 1900 Nxt will generate 100 Nxt = 100 dollar for maintaining the node and remain immobilized the funds (oportunity cost) Keep thinking. You had to run this node for a year, so the 100 dollars has to cover a monthly operations cost of 100/12 = $8.33 per month So.... IF the block you capture once a year has 100 NXT in fees in it and IF each NXT is worth $1 and IF your monthly hardware amortization, bandwidth costs, and electricity costs are less than $8.33 per month Then you made a monthly profit = $8.33 - monthly server costs Anybody out there running a VPN for less than $8.33 per month? |
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My gut feeling is that forging NXT will never be profitable for anybody.
I think it is going to be profitable for a few pools mostly and I predict that in the future most forging power will be locked up in ATs that act as "interest bearing accounts" ( http://ciyam.org/nxt/nxt_dormant.html). It is up to the community to make sure that we don't just end up with a small number of pools and a few hundred hobbyists. If we worry we will end up with few pools, we can cap the pool size to force more pools being created. In which case, forging NXT will never be profitable for anybody. |
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My intention is to put one of these trifold brochures on every chair in the three speaker areas at the Texas Bitcoin Conference early in the morning on March 6 if you do this, organizator will collect them all in 5 minutes. It is not allowed to use conf areas for non paid ads Then I will just have to figure out another way to distribute them once they are printed. Perhaps I can arrange for (cute female?) handout personnel at the doors when they open. Certainly we need printed handout materials for the four conferences we are going to have reps at over the next six weeks. My request for funding stands. I think in April (New York, Toronto) Nxt will look so different, that we will need new materials and text at that time. nxt.org, new branding resources from Damelon's friends.. So how much would cost a cute female? Who will hire her for all events and will she have tickets also to get in? I am more concerned about whether or not your NXT marketing fund will pay as a conference expense for any handout brochures at Texas Bitcoin Conference. Cost is 2000 for $526 (10K NXT) or 5000 for $723 (14K NXT). Basically $197 more gets 3000 extra brochures for San Francisco. My NXT account for receiving these funds and allowing me to pay the printer this week would be 16092180239932658439. Your decision? We are already paying $1250 for Texas, why do you need 2000 brochures? Enterpreneur space for brochures costs $2500. 200 brochures for person-person handout should be more than enough. Business cards are more important I will take that as a no for funding of brochures. I am not quite sure just what NXT is getting for the $1000 you paid Paul Snow of Texas Bitcoin Conference after you talked with him for so long in Berlin. I have not heard from him a single time despite repeated emails to him. I am not a speaker in any capacity at the event, but Vitalik Buterin of Ethereum is. Here is the official schedule: http://texasbitcoinconference.com/scheduleI'll do my best to shake some hands for NXT while Vitalik speaks to thousands about Etherium. Please forward 5K NXT for the $250 covering my door pass to 16092180239932658439. Thanks. there are cca 20.000 nxt for each conf, as I said, it is possible to handout 100-200 brochures, but not 2000 without paying for booth/ladies etc. Why do you need door pass when we are paying for "2 full-conference passes for staff members" in supporter sponsorship to get you a speaker position? Salsa, check their schedule link above. I am not a speaker. I have heard nothing from them. I have no clue that I was eligible for a door pass or how to get one. All I know is that you gave them a thousand bucks. |
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My intention is to put one of these trifold brochures on every chair in the three speaker areas at the Texas Bitcoin Conference early in the morning on March 6 if you do this, organizator will collect them all in 5 minutes. It is not allowed to use conf areas for non paid ads Then I will just have to figure out another way to distribute them once they are printed. Perhaps I can arrange for (cute female?) handout personnel at the doors when they open. Certainly we need printed handout materials for the four conferences we are going to have reps at over the next six weeks. My request for funding stands. I think in April (New York, Toronto) Nxt will look so different, that we will need new materials and text at that time. nxt.org, new branding resources from Damelon's friends.. So how much would cost a cute female? Who will hire her for all events and will she have tickets also to get in? I am more concerned about whether or not your NXT marketing fund will pay as a conference expense for any handout brochures at Texas Bitcoin Conference. Cost is 2000 for $526 (10K NXT) or 5000 for $723 (14K NXT). Basically $197 more gets 3000 extra brochures for San Francisco. My NXT account for receiving these funds and allowing me to pay the printer this week would be 16092180239932658439. Your decision? We are already paying $1250 for Texas, why do you need 2000 brochures? Enterpreneur space for brochures costs $2500. 200 brochures for person-person handout should be more than enough. Business cards are more important I will take that as a no for funding of brochures. I am not quite sure just what NXT is getting for the $1000 you paid Paul Snow of Texas Bitcoin Conference after you talked with him for so long in Berlin. I have not heard from him a single time despite repeated emails to him. I am not a speaker in any capacity at the event, but Vitalik Buterin of Ethereum is. Here is the official schedule: http://texasbitcoinconference.com/scheduleI'll do my best to shake some hands for NXT while Vitalik speaks to thousands about Etherium. Please forward 5K NXT for the $250 covering my door pass to 16092180239932658439. Thanks. |
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