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201  Economy / Service Discussion / COINMARKETCAP.COM IS FLAWED, and shouldn't be used as solid investment advice. on: March 22, 2014, 09:19:35 AM
I saw this thread on peercointalk.org and I'm wondering if it is true:

www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2432.0

coinmarketcap.com is flawed, and shouldn't be used as solid investment advice.


For instance, Auroracoin having 50% pre-mined sitting in wallets contributing to the overall coinmarketcap score is extremely misleading and gets people to throw mining hashrate and money at it by the overvalued numbers reported.

mhps made this analogy which could hold true:

I could make a coin, premine 1 trillion, and leave some coins to be mined. I will mine 1 coin and trade it on an exchange I setup, where I will sell the coin for $1. If no one buys it, I buy the coin myself. Then I will claim that the coin has a marketcap of $1tr.

It would work too, with one exception.  Coinmarketcap.com might decide to not carry that particular coin once it was discovered that its purpose was to falsely outprice Bitcoin and show the flaws in the coinmarketcap.com formula.

coinmarketcap.com's business model is to attract eyeballs to its site so they click on the Google Ads at the top/bottom of the screen.  So far it is meeting their demands, because every where you go, every one quotes them as an authoritative source for information.

They state right in their announce posting that it is calculated as simply as this:

Code:
Marketcap = Price x Total Supply

As per Wikipedia Market capitalization (or market cap) is the total value of the issued shares of a publicly traded company; it is equal to the share price times the number of shares outstanding.

The key here is "shares outstanding, which is defined as all the shares of a corporation or financial asset that have been authorized, issued and purchased by investors and are held by them.

When it comes to AURORACOIN, 50% of the total coins pre-mined  prior to March 25, 2014 have not been issued, nor purchased by investors.  So the market cap that Coinmarketcap.com claims as being valid for Auroracoin is wrong.

I suggest that coinmarketcap modify it's algorithm instead to be:

Code:
Marketcap = Price x Total Publicly Distributed Number of Coins obtained by:
                    a) non pre-mined
                    b) not hoarded by founders who were ready with miners on standby for the announce post
                    c) actually purchased by real investors.

Now all of a sudden, guess what happens?

AURORACOIN falls down the list
RIPPLE falls down the list

You could keep going, even the great DOGEcoin would fall down the list, if you consider how much of those coins fell into the lap of the first developers and those knowledgeable about the coin before it was released.

Now consider Peercoin's release:

Quote from: Sunny King link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101820.msg1847081#msg1847081
That's 9 days of notice to the public before release, with precise release schedule, and announced right here on the most populated cryptocurrency forum, rather than some obscure place. Check out all the other altcoins, I bet you would find that we had one of the most fair launch of all altcoins, if not the most fair launch. PPCoin has 0 premine (even genesis block has 0 mint), 0 taxation. Difficulty started at 256, unlike many other altcoins which were started with very low difficulty. Difficulty adjustment is continuous, which means there were a lot less number of low difficulty blocks.

This is hugely important.  Peercoin should be miles ahead of these other coins if reported fairly.  This is why coinmarketcap.com is only doing an injustice to the cryptocurrency community by reporting half-true numbers.

Now I don't think they do it in vain.  They report the easiest numbers to report. Investigating each individual coin to determine the real number of shares [coins] outstanding that were properly distributed and/or purchased, takes a lot of work.

So any media or true investor looking at the real market cap needs to find this information elsewhere.

www.realcoinmarketcap.com seems like an available domain. Any one up for the challenge?

From what I have read it would still seem that having a realistic average would be harder to come by - as of yet.

We're still in the pre-historic stone ages before the wheel was invented as far as deciding the true value of a cryptocoin.

What ever pretty chart and numbers coinmarketcap.com shows seems to be the winner of the day for trading volume on an exchange.

YES, coinmarketcap has _that_much_ influence on daily trading unfortunately.

If I was evil, AND I owned coinmarketcap.com, I'd buy a coin, show a great increase on my pretty charts, wait until the market followed me, and then I'd dump it.

Disclaimer: (I'm not evil, and I don't own coinmarketcap.com, and I have no proof they are doing that yet either.)

People talk about a 51% attack on coins. What about coinmarketcap.com having a 95% marketshare of the "coin valuation / statistic reporting" market?


Hello? McFly?  (back to the future movie reference)

While every one is running around creating exchanges, and new coins, we need some competition for coinmarketcap too!

Peercoin's price is what it is, quite simply, because of coinmarketcap.com, I fully believe it.  Coinmarketcap doesn't take into account how rare a coin is..... It is strictly eyeballing how many coins have been created and the last trading price of a coin.

This is going to change, probably this year sometime. When it does, expect Peercoin to jump huge points in the market, once the coinmarketcap gig is up.

The proper thing to do here is to really see how the altcoin market has developed, who deserves to be on top, and for what reason.  They really need to re-consider their top position of reporting statistics and make the necessary corrections before some one else does it for them.

........so frustrating.......

I do believe they started out on the right foot, for the right reasons. But after Auroracoin and Ripple surging so high, with pre-mines. Some thing is obviously wrong.

Please re-post and share, pleeeease...
202  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / COINMARKETCAP.COM IS FLAWED, and shouldn't be used as solid investment advice. on: March 22, 2014, 09:05:53 AM
I saw this thread on peercointalk.org and I'm wondering if it is true:

www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2432.0

coinmarketcap.com is flawed, and shouldn't be used as solid investment advice.


For instance, Auroracoin having 50% pre-mined sitting in wallets contributing to the overall coinmarketcap score is extremely misleading and gets people to throw mining hashrate and money at it by the overvalued numbers reported.

mhps made this analogy which could hold true:

I could make a coin, premine 1 trillion, and leave some coins to be mined. I will mine 1 coin and trade it on an exchange I setup, where I will sell the coin for $1. If no one buys it, I buy the coin myself. Then I will claim that the coin has a marketcap of $1tr.

It would work too, with one exception.  Coinmarketcap.com might decide to not carry that particular coin once it was discovered that its purpose was to falsely outprice Bitcoin and show the flaws in the coinmarketcap.com formula.

coinmarketcap.com's business model is to attract eyeballs to its site so they click on the Google Ads at the top/bottom of the screen.  So far it is meeting their demands, because every where you go, every one quotes them as an authoritative source for information.

They state right in their announce posting that it is calculated as simply as this:

Code:
Marketcap = Price x Total Supply

As per Wikipedia Market capitalization (or market cap) is the total value of the issued shares of a publicly traded company; it is equal to the share price times the number of shares outstanding.

The key here is "shares outstanding, which is defined as all the shares of a corporation or financial asset that have been authorized, issued and purchased by investors and are held by them.

When it comes to AURORACOIN, 50% of the total coins pre-mined  prior to March 25, 2014 have not been issued, nor purchased by investors.  So the market cap that Coinmarketcap.com claims as being valid for Auroracoin is wrong.

I suggest that coinmarketcap modify it's algorithm instead to be:

Code:
Marketcap = Price x Total Publicly Distributed Number of Coins obtained by:
                    a) non pre-mined
                    b) not hoarded by founders who were ready with miners on standby for the announce post
                    c) actually purchased by real investors.

Now all of a sudden, guess what happens?

AURORACOIN falls down the list
RIPPLE falls down the list

You could keep going, even the great DOGEcoin would fall down the list, if you consider how much of those coins fell into the lap of the first developers and those knowledgeable about the coin before it was released.

Now consider Peercoin's release:

Quote from: Sunny King link=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101820.msg1847081#msg1847081
That's 9 days of notice to the public before release, with precise release schedule, and announced right here on the most populated cryptocurrency forum, rather than some obscure place. Check out all the other altcoins, I bet you would find that we had one of the most fair launch of all altcoins, if not the most fair launch. PPCoin has 0 premine (even genesis block has 0 mint), 0 taxation. Difficulty started at 256, unlike many other altcoins which were started with very low difficulty. Difficulty adjustment is continuous, which means there were a lot less number of low difficulty blocks.

This is hugely important.  Peercoin should be miles ahead of these other coins if reported fairly.  This is why coinmarketcap.com is only doing an injustice to the cryptocurrency community by reporting half-true numbers.

Now I don't think they do it in vain.  They report the easiest numbers to report. Investigating each individual coin to determine the real number of shares [coins] outstanding that were properly distributed and/or purchased, takes a lot of work.

So any media or true investor looking at the real market cap needs to find this information elsewhere.

www.realcoinmarketcap.com seems like an available domain. Any one up for the challenge?

From what I have read it would still seem that having a realistic average would be harder to come by - as of yet.

We're still in the pre-historic stone ages before the wheel was invented as far as deciding the true value of a cryptocoin.

What ever pretty chart and numbers coinmarketcap.com shows seems to be the winner of the day for trading volume on an exchange.

YES, coinmarketcap has _that_much_ influence on daily trading unfortunately.

If I was evil, AND I owned coinmarketcap.com, I'd buy a coin, show a great increase on my pretty charts, wait until the market followed me, and then I'd dump it.

Disclaimer: (I'm not evil, and I don't own coinmarketcap.com, and I have no proof they are doing that yet either.)

People talk about a 51% attack on coins. What about coinmarketcap.com having a 95% marketshare of the "coin valuation / statistic reporting" market?

Hello? McFly?  (back to the future movie reference)

While every one is running around creating exchanges, and new coins, we need some competition for coinmarketcap too!

Peercoin's price is what it is, quite simply, because of coinmarketcap.com, I fully believe it.  Coinmarketcap doesn't take into account how rare a coin is..... It is strictly eyeballing how many coins have been created and the last trading price of a coin.

This is going to change, probably this year sometime. When it does, expect Peercoin to jump huge points in the market, once the coinmarketcap gig is up.

The proper thing to do here is to really see how the altcoin market has developed, who deserves to be on top, and for what reason.  They really need to re-consider their top position of reporting statistics and make the necessary corrections before some one else does it for them.

........so frustrating.......

I do believe they started out on the right foot, for the right reasons. But after Auroracoin and Ripple surging so high, with pre-mines. Some thing is obviously wrong.

Please re-post and share, pleeeease...
203  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SCRYPT] KlondikeCoin ★ Bter.com ★ Prepaid VISA Cards ★ 0% Premine [KDC] on: March 22, 2014, 06:59:02 AM
Maybe US guys are sleeping now?

You have to wait until Monday for the real volume to happen.

A lot of trade volume happens during the week. When regular stock brokers are bored at work on Wallstreet, they play the cryptocurrency daily trading game with a few thousand dollars. It's like a flash facebook game for them. Trading cryptocoins is like a video game for them.

On Saturday and Sunday, their wives tell them to stay off the computer.

You will see KDC trade volume on Cryptsy change in the next 7-10 days for sure.

204  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SCRYPT] KlondikeCoin ★ Bter.com ★ Prepaid VISA Cards ★ 0% Premine [KDC] on: March 22, 2014, 06:18:33 AM

The KDC devs should contact sealswithclubs.eu

Bitcoin is too expensive to play poker with, so they should have a junior version of the site in KDC as a practice site. If people get use to their interface, maybe they will buy in with Bitcoin in the future.

Use KDC as a stepping stone for a junior poker site that sealswithclubs.eu can use their existing technology to make it happen.

205  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SCRYPT] KlondikeCoin ★ Bter.com ★ Prepaid VISA Cards ★ 0% Premine [KDC] on: March 22, 2014, 05:48:19 AM

The single app that will make this coin skyrocket is an online Texas Hold'em poker.


Here is an example:

http://www.briggsoft.com/pmavens.htm

Somebody needs to contact that type of developer and run a server that uses KDC coins as the chips.  Find someone who did all the hardwork already of making a multi-user poker game, and then ask them to do KDC integration.
206  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SCRYPT] KlondikeCoin ★ Bter.com ★ Prepaid VISA Cards ★ 0% Premine [KDC] on: March 22, 2014, 05:37:37 AM

The single app that will make this coin skyrocket is an online Texas Hold'em poker.

The devs should find some way to get that working. Once you do, expect KDC's value to triple its value in the first week.

Maybe we need a community bounty.

Is there any texas holdem flash games (even on facebook) that could use KDC as the chips instead of their own fake chips?

No need to re-invent the wheel. If Texas Hold'em poker is already ready, a little KDC integration shouldn't be too hard?

I'm not a developer. Just sharing ideas.

I WANT TO PLAY POKER FOR KDC
207  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SHA]SHACoin - First pure Pos SHA256 based coin - On Exchange Now on: March 21, 2014, 08:06:28 PM

SHACoin is not dead. People always think that if there is nothing posted on bitcointalk the coin must be dead.

A new community forum has been created, go look:

http://www.shacointalk.org

On March 14th the Shacoin Dev posted there asking for help:
http://www.shacointalk.org/index.php?topic=3.msg5#msg5

Instead I see a bunch of people complaining in bitcointalk. How is that helping?

208  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SCRYPT] Klondike Coin ★ 16 coins block / 19mil total ★ 0% Premine [KDC] on: March 10, 2014, 09:49:31 PM
One month ago that would be a disaster... And in one month 7k sat would be a disaster once again Wink

I don't understand how 7K sat is a disaster? It's way better than SOC at 0.00000021

Can you explain in a bit more detail.
209  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [NRS] NoirShares Listed on PoloniEX, coming soon to NoirEX on: March 10, 2014, 09:39:09 PM
I had NoirSharesd running for over 24 hours.  I bought coins and transferred them successfully to the wallet.

I shut down the daemon.

I added gen=1 to the NoirShares.conf file to see if I could mine with the Daemon

This is the error:

NoirSharesd: kernel.cpp:368: unsigned int GetStakeModifierChecksum(const CBlockIndex*): Assertion `pindex->pprev || pindex->GetBlockHash() == (!fTestNet ? hashGenesisBlock : hashGenesisBlockTestNet)' failed.

Now I've set gen=0, and tried to start the daemon, and it's the same error.

I've rebuilt the daemon, and it's the same error.

I'm ready to delete the downloaded blockchain and see if that helps. This appears to be a problem with the NoirSharesd code though.

I'm trying this on Ubuntu, 32-bit

Code:
*** glibc detected *** NoirSharesd: double free or corruption (!prev): 0x099eb758 ***
======= Backtrace: =========
/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libc.so.6(+0x75ee2)[0xb7051ee2]
/usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6(_ZdlPv+0x1f)[0xb727a51f]
NoirSharesd[0x80e3093]
NoirSharesd[0x80e316a]
/usr/lib/libboost_thread.so.1.48.0(+0xb1cc)[0xb76931cc]
/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0(+0x6d4c)[0xb72bcd4c]
/lib/i386-linux-gnu/libc.so.6(clone+0x5e)[0xb70cbbae]
======= Memory map: ========

UPDATE:

This part is the most problematic it seems: double free or corruption (!prev)

What I did, was run it again, exported my private keys before the crash. I removed all references to gen=1 and gen=0 from my NoirShares.conf.  Created a completely new data directory, which generated a new wallet.  I imported the private keys again, and resynced the block chain.

My coins are back, and everything is good.

Word of warning, never put gen=1 or gen=0 in your conf file otherwise apparently you corrupt some of the data files or your wallet.

This is my findings anyway.

By the way, this miner:
https://github.com/reorder/momentum-getwork

..doesn't work for me. I can run it, but then it segmentation faults on me at this exact part of ptc.py:

hasher = PTSHasher(0, 0)

Segmentation fault (core dumped)


Can we not get a cgminer fork that has momentum algo in it?  Even if it comes off cgminer 2.x which had CPU capability in it?
210  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SCRYPT] Klondike Coin ★ 16 coins block / 19mil total ★ 0% Premine [KDC] on: March 10, 2014, 09:31:29 PM
Wow, KDC hit a high today of 0.00007470 BTC/KDC on Poloniex.com

I think that's the highest I've seen.  Some good trading action.

By the way, anyone know what happened to klondice.net and if it is coming back?
211  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SCRYPT] Klondike Coin ★ MANDATORY UPDATE 3/3/14 SEE THREAD ★ on: March 03, 2014, 08:44:15 PM
No offense toldy but you sound extremely naive. Everyone is in this to make money. Miners process transactions and are rewarded with coins. What they do with that is their business and if they want to sell them cheap that is their choice. For you to call people out and label them as bad for selling what they mined makes you look dumb imo.

You can make a little money today, or a lot more money in a few months when the coin matures and the market has a new demand for a coin.

If your idea is to only make a little money today, there are more than 100 altcoins you can mine-and-dump and make a little money with..

I've done this successfully (mine-and-hold) before with Bitcoin, and Litecoin already.
212  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SCRYPT] Klondike Coin ★ MANDATORY UPDATE 3/3/14 SEE THREAD ★ on: March 03, 2014, 08:35:09 PM
Explain to me how a miner who provides hash rate to a coin in exchange for BTC, butterflies, apple sauce or anything doesn't contribute?  You do understand it is the hive of the hash that creates the security and 'trust' of the coin don't you?  With only a small pool of enthusiastic followers all you have is a low hash coin vulnerable to attack.

A miner providing hash rate to a coin contributes in that single regard, yes.

I supply coins to people willing to buy them.  The argument that I somehow cheapen the value of the coin is baseless since the scarcity in this market is that of buyers and as such they set the price regardless of the supply of coins for sale.

This is where your linking is illogical.

The act of dumping coins on the market for the current price "to people willing to buy them", so you can exchange them for BTC just saturates the market before demand can increase.

Miners who believe in a coin should mine and hold those coins whenever possible.  Parting with some here and there is fine, but as long as that isn't what you primarily do..

By your recent posts, you fully admit that you mine and then sell them for BTC on a regular basis. This hurts the value of klondikecoin when you do that..

I'm not prepared to get into a long circular debate with you about these basic principles.

With that said, I'm prepared to stand behind my comments and not engage with you any further. I have to get back to my klondikecoin miners..

213  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SCRYPT] Klondike Coin ★ MANDATORY UPDATE 3/3/14 SEE THREAD ★ on: March 03, 2014, 08:11:55 PM
Hate to break it to you, in case you haven't noticed price drives the popularity of an altcoin.

Price matters less in the early stages of a coin when a coin is proving to the marketplace the reason for its existence.

If KDC developers bring out new products and services that are exclusive to klondikecoin, the price will follow the market demand accordingly.

All of this fretting about current market price, and block reward BEFORE these products and services are launched is unimportant.

We've stolen the focus of them developing these products and services so the KDC developers can be berated by a tiny few people (kheg and jackdminer included) for the recent fork.

This fork may be one of the greatest things ever for KDC.  We'll see who is right in the long term. Until you can prove to me you're 100% right (which you can't), then you could be 100% wrong.

It will take a couple months for the impact of this fork to play out.  Right now I do know that the holdings of the KDC developers is greatly improved by this fork, and I support that position for them.

For the mine-and-dump complainers, I hope they do dump all their coins and stop mining, so the rest of us who are interested in klondikecoin long term and can buy their positions for cheap and take over the mining from them.

Go devs go...


P.S. For reference in a couple months in the future, today, KDC traded at a low of 0.00003570 BTC on Poloniex.com. Let's look at this again mid-summer 2014 and see if it is trading lower than this price.
214  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN][SCRYPT] Klondike Coin ★ MANDATORY UPDATE 3/3/14 SEE THREAD ★ on: March 03, 2014, 07:45:32 PM
We have two people here who I'd like to mention:

jackdminer

He's a clear mining opportunist who clearly states ".. just mining away and exchanging my coins for BTC."

That's what he does.  He mines and sells for BTC.  That type of miner never contributes to the value of a coin.  The fact that the reward is less now, is impressive.  He's finding a hundred ways to tell you that this fork was a bad idea.

The fact that someone like this isn't happy, is a good thing.  KDC needs miners who believe in the coin and are willing to mine and HOLD until KDC dev team launches more of their upcoming products and services. Mining KDC and dumping it for BTC only hurts KDC more than this fork.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

kheg

This person is even stranger.  Jan 10th, he says:

"does this seem like one of the better COIN launches in recent memory? Quiet, friendly, not a lot of hype, nobody really trying to get rich fast"

..and now he says:

"There's a TON of cheap KDC available, and that sets the benchmark for the price..."

"...the cycle will beget itself which in turn will drive the price down once again"

So I guess price matters to kheg now.

PEOPLE LISTEN

The market hasn't had a chance to show how it feels about the fork.  If you believe in Klondikecoin's long-term like I do, than you'll be in a buy and hold position right now.

If you're someone who mines KDC just to dump it for Bitcoin, then there are plenty of other altcoins you can mine to help leech their value and help bring their value down.

If you're someone who believes in Klondikecoin's future, you'll keep mining the coin (like I am), irregardless of the pay off today.  I believe that KDC will be worth a lot more than it is today a year from now.

If the devs keep on their path with their development, believe it or not, 16 KDC will be plenty of a reward for a block, because the demand for KDC will rise.  It all evens out in the end.

The problem isn't today's price.

The problem isn't lowering the block reward to 16 KDC

The problem isn't losing some miners or pool operators who only were mining to dump their coins for BTC

We simply need to continue letting the KDC devs do their thing and attract other interested people to this community.

I fully support the fork.  I fully support the KDC devs, and my attitude is, if you think you could do better, than go create your own coin.

I hate complainers they just drain people's energy and hurt the very thing they think they are helping.

Enough already.
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