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2021  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [422 GH/s] EMC: 0 Fee/DGM/Merged Mining/PayPal Payout/SMS/Yubikey/More on: March 09, 2012, 10:34:17 AM
This is a new reward system for mining pools, a hybrid between PPLNS and the geometric method which combines advantages of both. It starts with PPLNS-like low share-based variance without operator risk, and then allows the operator to absorb some variance to decrease pool-based variance (which the geometric method can do, but not PPLNS). It is of course hopping-proof - the expected payout per share is always the same no matter when it was submitted. The variance and the maturity time (the time it takes to receive the reward) are independent of the pool's history and almost completely independent of future difficulty changes.

The bold part really sums it well for me. People need to look at DGM like it's PPS, even if at first it doesn't seem so - because it's a "PPS" that gets delayed over several blocks. But it's there - the expected payout per share is always the same no matter when it was submitted.
There's also some variance (caused by luck in future finding of blocks), not just delay. Of course, over the long run it should not be significant.

Quote from: Vbs
Omelette du Fromage!
That's all you can say! That's all you can say, that's all you can say...
2022  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Idea-improving btc fungibility on: March 09, 2012, 08:15:16 AM
Take a look at this post about oblivious mixing transactions.
2023  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [422 GH/s] EMC: 0 Fee/DGM/Merged Mining/PayPal Payout/SMS/Yubikey/More on: March 09, 2012, 08:11:12 AM
Like I said its confusing. Even the eclipse FAQ section refers to making money off pool hoppers. DGM does not give you a less proportional pay out because you missed the last part of the round.

Meni "DGM doesn't care at all when you started or stopped mining. It doesn't try to detect hoppers and punish them. It rewards each share separately, in a way that is independent of the past and thus does not offer any incentive to hop."
I agree that this FAQ answer is poorly worded. I guess it was intended as "relative to proportional". Proportional loses to hopping, DGM is indifferent, so cross-relatively, DGM gains from hopping - [(Hoppers in DGM - normal miners in DGM) - (Hoppers in Prop - Normal in Prop)] = [0 - negative] = positive.
2024  Economy / Marketplace / Re: [GLBSE] How does this work? on: March 08, 2012, 07:49:12 PM
I'd rather not have the recuring costs and dependence on bitcoincharts (it's fine for normal bitcoin exchanges, GLBSE however is a little more complicated than a bitcoin exchange).
Can you explain some of the deficiencies?

I would like to see a company's dividend % in the quote.  I'd imagine this would be one of the positives if the GLBSE took over charting/quotes.
This gives me an idea, it would be nice to see a chart of (exchange rate + total of dividend per share paid so far). This way we can see how well someone who bought a share at a given point in time fared.

Also the charts don't display the total number of shares issued, which is a handy piece of information. Maybe even a chart of total issued.
2025  Economy / Marketplace / Re: [GLBSE] How does this work? on: March 08, 2012, 07:36:32 PM
And as has been mentioned, we'll be moving away from it to our own charting solution.
Is that wise? Bitcoincharts works and is familiar to the Bitcoin community. Why spend time on creating a charting platform?
That's the problem, it doesn't work great. You might not have noticed but on charts.glbse.com volume is measured in BTC as opposed to # of shares traded.
As far as I can see it's measured both ways. In the markets section, the 1d and 30d volumes are displayed in large font for number of shares, and in small font for number of BTCs. In summary there is "volume" which is number of shares, and "volume in currency" which is number of BTC. In the charts there's a checkbox to choose "volume in currency", which when unchecked gives shares.

The only problem I see is with the label, in "summary" the volume says "6 BTC" instead of "6 shares", but the number 6 is the number of shares.

I'd rather not have the recuring costs and dependence on bitcoincharts (it's fine for normal bitcoin exchanges, GLBSE however is a little more complicated than a bitcoin exchange).
Can you explain some of the deficiencies?
2026  Economy / Marketplace / Re: [GLBSE] How does this work? on: March 08, 2012, 06:52:07 PM
And as has been mentioned, we'll be moving away from it to our own charting solution.
Is that wise? Bitcoincharts works and is familiar to the Bitcoin community. Why spend time on creating a charting platform?
2027  Bitcoin / Pools / Re: [422 GH/s] EMC: 0 Fee/DGM/Merged Mining/PayPal Payout/SMS/Yubikey/More on: March 08, 2012, 05:59:48 PM
It's just the pool size. Bad thing about DGM is the confusion of how it works. I missed the last 20% of that really long block, and received 40% of my normal payout. I still have no idea why it does that.

Consider DGM like a capacitor, you build up charge in the beginning, and as long as you keep mining, you don't lose charge.  Once you stop mining, you lose charge slowly and you get paid out even if you aren't "charging" the capacitor by mining, until it's completely empty.
Isnt that what normal old prop / score does?
In some sense, pretty much any reward system is similar to a capacitor if you stretch the analogy enough. But quantitatively, DGM behaves much more like a physical capacitor than other methods, which is why the analogy is more appropriate for it.

Notably, in hoppable methods the effect of shares on the capacitor depends on the pool's history, so some times are better than others.

It's just the pool size. Bad thing about DGM is the confusion of how it works. I missed the last 20% of that really long block, and received 40% of my normal payout. I still have no idea why it does that.
DGM doesn't care about the pool's history. When you mine continuously the capacitor is at its full charge level (with some caveats irrelevant to the current topic). When you stop mining the capacitor starts discharging in a way that doesn't depend on the fact that 6.7M shares were already submitted in the round. What matters is not that you missed 20% of the block, but that you didn't mine for 1.7M shares, which with the current parameters is enough for your score to decay to the 40% level. Other hopping-proof methods are similar.

The mistake people make is thinking that the proportional method is some sort of gold standard other methods should measure up to. It's not, it's just a broken method. Looking at the % of shares submitted in the current round is meaningless.
2028  Economy / Long-term offers / Re: Savings Account, 3% weekly on: March 07, 2012, 05:16:06 AM
I don't believe in this. it's a scam. You can borrow at a much lower interest rate from Zhoutong.
If you take a look at the lending subforum you'll see people lending and borrowing at all sorts of interest rates.

And, as notme says, borrowing in Bitcoinica is only against collateral, and only for trading.
2029  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: March 06, 2012, 09:36:48 AM
I am so annoyed the Bitclockers fiasco made me miss this! It's the first investment on GLBSE that I'd consider purchasing.

Please post as soon as you're taking new investors. I have some lazy coins I need to do some work for me.
Strictly speaking you don't have to wait that long; you can put up a bid at a price which is attractive for you and hope some early adopter will want to cash out at a profit.

I will of course post when new bonds are issued.

Any plans to issue more any time soon, or are you waiting for the market to set the price first?
I can't guarantee anything one way or the other, but I expect about 1 month from now to be the general timeframe for making another issue.
2030  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: March 05, 2012, 11:08:17 AM
Well that price drop seemed to move them.
The interesting counterpoint is whether there will also be some difficulty decrease when the block reward changes in December. Personally, I doubt it. When something is known about so far in advance, people factor it into their plans.
There will be some difficulty decrease at that point, because marginal miners will pull the plug when it swaps from profit to loss. But in addition there will be a slowing down of the increase before that, as people who would otherwise purchase hardware will avoid it due to the imminent decrease in profitability.

The price of BTC will also be affected; the simplest projection is that if you compare a short time before the halving with a short time after it, the difficulty will drop by 2^(1/3), the price will increase by 2^(1/3) and the fiat profit per hash will decrease by 2^(1/3).
2031  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: March 05, 2012, 05:30:44 AM
The initial offering of 200 bonds is sold out.

I've also put up a bid myself to act as a baseline for liquidity.

... it's a fast-paced world, and I don't really expect more uptake later on if there was little during the excitement of the original announcement...
I think you're being impatient. Probably only 5% of the readers of this forum have even seen this thread so far. And anyway, people need to hear about a new concept at least three times before it sinks in.

GLBSE is being rapidly improved as a platform (although it has a long way to go still), but the commitment seems to be there.

And your own reputation at GLBSE will increase over time as more dividends get paid out. Sure, you have plenty of reputation elsewhere, but not everyone at GLBSE follows those other places.

So I hope you will stick with this platform long-term, and offer many interesting and innovative assets.
I think it's healthy that the bonds are now in the hands of investors and that increases in exposure, trust and demand will drive up the price. What will really affect my bottom line is what the valuation will be when I issue larger amounts.
2032  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Tradehill's website completely gone? on: March 04, 2012, 11:07:07 AM
Did you ever hear about giving someone the benefit of the doubt? It means you don't immediately call someone a thief when there's a technical problem with their site.

Searching also isn't that hard, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=67022.0.
2033  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: March 03, 2012, 09:34:45 PM
Well, it appears that the streamlined, deterministic nature of this bond isn't attracting that much interest.
Oh, don't assume that. This is by far the most interesting asset seen so far at GLBSE.
Others have also expressed this sentiment, and it's great to hear - but it's moot if not accompanied by people actually buying.

It could be argued that I'm being impatient, but it's a fast-paced world, and I don't really expect more uptake later on if there was little during the excitement of the original announcement.

But GLBSE as a platform doesn't exactly make life easy for new investors.
To be honest I was hoping to attract "old" investors who are currently invested in other mining assets. Also, GLBSE has its faults but I don't think the barrier of entry is too large. For me as an issuer it was a bit intimidating until I realized the "contract builder" is completely irrelevant. Once one creates an account it gets the job done.

Anyway, the trading platform used is one of the components that go into the measurement of level of interest. If there is interest but not on this platform, it subtracts from the valuation.

(Why is PureMining not listed under the "Listed Companies" link on the GLBSE home page, for example?)
No idea, I think this is some sort of legacy thing. When GLBSE 2.0 is live I'll make more effort to get some relevant exposure.
2034  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: March 03, 2012, 08:42:43 PM
Well, it appears that the streamlined, deterministic nature of this bond isn't attracting that much interest. So I'd like to press further the advantage of the offering in terms of pure performance numbers. Re-evaluating my strategy of utilizing BFL products, it seems safe to offer bonds at a new, low price of 0.28 BTC. Since I'm still only issuing a small number of shares, I'm willing to take the risk that I'm wrong.

Once again I do not want early adopters (and current bidders) to be worse off than buyers at the new price. Given that there already are bids at 0.35 BTC, my exact order of operations was:

1. Pay a bonus 0.05 BTC per bond.
2. Issue at 0.35 BTC.
3. Pay a bonus 0.07 BTC per bond.
4. Issue at 0.28 BTC.
Thank you very much for the way you dealt with this, I was the person with the bids on 0.35 and I am very happy with the way you dealt with it. As I did not loose anything and got my shares at the price I wanted to Smiley So far you have been running this very professionally
//DeaDTerra
Thank you for your support. I'm still learning.
2035  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: March 03, 2012, 07:33:03 PM
Well, it appears that the streamlined, deterministic nature of this bond isn't attracting that much interest. So I'd like to press further the advantage of the offering in terms of pure performance numbers. Re-evaluating my strategy of utilizing BFL products, it seems safe to offer bonds at a new, low price of 0.28 BTC. Since I'm still only issuing a small number of shares, I'm willing to take the risk that I'm wrong.

Once again I do not want early adopters (and current bidders) to be worse off than buyers at the new price. Given that there already are bids at 0.35 BTC, my exact order of operations was:

1. Pay a bonus 0.05 BTC per bond.
2. Issue at 0.35 BTC.
3. Pay a bonus 0.07 BTC per bond.
4. Issue at 0.28 BTC.

ROI projections for the new price:

Issue price - 0.28 BTC
Difficulty - 1496979 (recently increased by 9%)
Block reward - 50 BTC
Daily return - 672 uBTC (0.24% ROI) = 86400 * 50 * 10^6 / (2^32 * 1496979)
Weekly ROI - 1.68% (linear, non-compounded) = 7 * 0.24%
Monthly ROI - 7.32% (linear, non-compounded) = 30.5 * 0.24%
Annual ROI - 138% (compunded weekly) = 1.0168 ^ (365/7) - 1

This means that, if the current network parameters remain unchanged, the investment will more than double in a year. Of course, the parameters will not remain unchanged, so this will not be fully realized.

I will mention again that I am making a personal commitment to do whatever it takes to abide by the contract, regardless of the success of any mining operations I may have.
2036  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Retargeting algorithm -- arithmetic or harmonic mean? on: March 03, 2012, 05:34:24 PM
In principle, negative timespans which result from inaccurate timestamps can be solved by sorting the 2016 timestamps, taking differences between the sorted values, and setting a minimum value for the spans.

My comment (which is about timestamps coming from an exact, theoretical Poisson process) wasn't completely accurate. The fact that 1/E[1/X]=0 is only relevant if the number of timestamps is arbitrary. For the fixed number 2016, E[H] has a finite value, which is approximately 0.109*(10 minutes). For the geometric mean, E[G] = exp(E[log(X)]) = exp(-gamma)*E[X], independent on the number of intervals.
2037  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Multisig methods don't need multisig bitcoin to prevent thefts on: March 02, 2012, 01:19:39 PM
With multisig, will it not be possible to have two independent servers, where each of them can sign a transaction, but checks that it makes sense first? This is a solution which is both fully automated and more secure than keeping keys on a single server, even if encrypted.

Also there could be a multi-tiered approach. The hot server will have a small amount of coins for immediate use, requiring just local keys. In addition a larger amount of coins will be in a 2-of-2 address with keys in the hot server and a lukewarm server (which is more secure than just a key in the lukewarm server). If the hot server is close to running out, he polls the lukewarm server to send it some coins, which it will agree to only if the transaction makes sense, is in a limited amount, and it notifies the operator. This obviates the need for manual intervention in each and every transfer, while still offering damage control.
2038  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How serious is this? on: March 02, 2012, 12:21:29 PM
The negative amount is the transaction fees earned by the miner for generating the block.

A Bitcoin transaction is made of input amounts and output amounts. To pay a transaction fee to get your transaction included in a block in a timely fashion, your Bitcoin client crafts a transaction with a larger input than output. the extra money that doesn't come out of transactions is the fee. The miner gets to keep the transaction fees of all transactions they include in a block.

The previous posters are misinterpreting the information shown about the transaction where the miner gets paid 50BTC reward + fees earned. The input is 50BTC, but the output is 50BTC plus the fees earned, so the block explorers show a negative amount when calculating the "fee" for that transaction.
No, this isn't what this is, there really are serious display errors in blockchain.info. Neither blockexplorer nor blockchain.info have a habit of displaying tx fees paid to the miner as "negative tx fees". http://blockchain.info/block/0000000000000765555944646925edf0449cb6d33c7d8ecf335b01aec1d94ace is a summary of block 168425 which claims that the total transaction fees paid is negative, which is impossible. And if you look at the transactions in the block, many are displayed as having no input.

I wonder what kind of bug caused this, things are pretty messed up.
2039  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: How serious is this? on: March 02, 2012, 12:11:33 PM
No, that's normal, tx fees are included in the coinbase transaction.

This is probably a bug in blockchain.info.
2040  Economy / Securities / Re: [GLBSE] PureMining: Infinite-term, deterministic mining bond on: March 02, 2012, 10:46:47 AM
Coupon payment summary for February 2012:

Code:
Block number	Timestamp        	Timestamp (Unix)	Elapsed time	Difficulty	Block reward	Coupon    	Status
169007    Feb 29 2012 05:40:07  1330494007          179455    1376302.26789 50        0.0015179305 Paid
168671    Feb 27 2012 03:49:12  1330314552          180878    1376302.26789 50        0.0015299670 Paid
168335    Feb 25 2012 01:34:34  1330133674          187781    1376302.26789 50        0.0015883564 Paid

In addition, 0.0015423250 BTC coupon for block 169343 was paid today.
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