you can plug the seed from the first into the second in order to verify that the second one works.  You can also erase the second one after you test it, in the even that you prefer to store it as blank.

 I actually have a Ledger Nano S and a Trezor that each have the same seed, and sometimes I look at the interface of one versus the other just to test out features and to figure out whether I have a preference... which so far, I see variation, but I don't really have a preference... although some of the interfaces may be easier on one versus the other.

What the fuck are you talking about?  

It should be clear from the total context that we are in a bitcoin bull market, like I said from about $250 to present - and this bull market has been going on for about 2 years.. and such trend seems to continue, and sure it is possible that the trend could change at some point, but you don't fucking know.  It is way too early to determine that we are no longer in a bull market.  

Maybe a few months down the road you could tell me that we are no longer in a bull market because the price went below $1k or something like that. , or maybe if we get a bigger or longer correction, then you could tell me such, but currently, it is way too fucking early to make such an assertion of either a trend change or anything like that, so we are still in a bull market, until such logic and facts are present to determine otherwise, no?  

Furthermore, we have a price battle going on for about 20 weeks (and maybe even a bit more tense in the past few weeks), which means that there is pressure from both sides to push BTC prices in the direction that they want... sure it could go down, or sure it could go up and some of those downs or ups could be temporary resolutions, but we don't know, yet which way this price battle will resolve nor do we know whether the bull market is going to be converted into a bear market (at some point it will happen, but when is the question?  we may well have one more leg up before we go to a bear market and we may even have a couple more legs up before this baby bitcoin becomes overheated).

Currently, we have a correction from our ATH of $4980 that is going into its third week of up and down playing, but three weeks of correction and playing and even a longer period of consolidation or even deeper correction is not even fucking close from converting a bull market into a bear market.. and even that kind of additional correction is not needed in order for the price to return up.  In other words, we already had sufficient correction and further correction is not necessary, but that does not mean that we might not have a double bottom at $3k or a further test of such bottom, including going lower... it is possible, but no necessary nor certain.

This is not exuberance, it is fact... maybe you need to zoom out a bit when you are trying to assess our current situation, no?

There are no certainties when it comes to BTC price direction, especially when we are in the midst of a battle and in the midst of a bull market, and likely you have no fucking clue besides some conclusory assertion based on your supposed baseless expertise.

O.k... I concede that my remarks may have caused that kind of implication, but I still assert that I was engaged in a kind of exaggeration (which is more or less a joke)... so anyone who happens to be bitcoin rich should consider my remarks as form of flattery rather than any kind of insult....

By the way, anyone who gets in the territory of possessing 2k coins or more, with these prices, is truly in a position of privilege, luck, and/or power.  As we know money buys power, and when you have power, you sometimes might get criticized for  having such power, but that does not mean that you did not earn it or that you were not lucky... but sometimes you become a target of jokes (sure you are not filthy rich, but you are in a good position). 

Another point that I made is that in the future a person of much fewer coins (maybe as few as maintaining 10 coins) might start to fit into a similar privileged category, even though s/he may not have started from such privilege.

Many of us involved in bitcoin are lucky to know about bitcoin and to be involved in bitcoin... cross your finger boys and girl.   

I am sure that they are "honorable" folks.  

You know anyone who choses to hack and to assert that they have supposedly received sensitive information of 10s of thousands of users of such service, and to sell such supposed valuable information for .14 BTC must be honorable and full of ethics, integrity and good intentions, no?      

My post was merely exaggerating to make a point that I don't possess anywhere near 2k coins.  

I am not trying to ascribe what I believe other WO thread participants should or should not choose to do, even if they happen to have some quantity of coins approaching 2k.

Edit:  after reading Elwar's post (above), I am likely in agreement with him that this particular thread does continue to serve as a fairly decent bellweather, so any of us participating (or at least reading) this thread does seem to have such an advantage.

I probably would not be hanging out with you guys, here in these threads, if I were to have anything approaching 2k in coins.... but maybe it is possible that I would still be hanging out here?  Never say never.

Now you got me fantasizing, RJC,... see what you did?

There are probably several folks in this thread with more than 10 coins.. but I know that some folks here have even struggled to accumulate and to hang onto 10 coins.... so yeah, what would be a realistic threshold in something like 5 years?  Could we realistically consider that 10 coins would be enough to put HODLers into millionaire status in terms of their coins in 5 years? 

Currently I am thinking that kind of a price is possible (that is about a 28x increase from this price point), but surely we have BTC price forces pushing in both directions.

Can we shoot for $100k value coins for 2022/2023, please? 


And, then if we reach $100k value in coins by 2022/2023, then how many folks here are going to sell too many of their coins along the way UP? 

So, o.k.... Maybe guys (and gal) here need to have close to 20 coins now, in order to maintain 10 coins by the time BTC prices reach $100k in 2022/2023?   

Are we good with that?  Does such a price rise seem somewhat plausible and realistic under current conditions and current foundational principles?  Maybe 20% or so odds of such a price point in such a timeline?

I reread your posts, and I will concede that I could have been getting overexcited in my inducement allegations..   It is true that you did question the depth of the red/green - so you were not pushing in one direction or another..  ...

One more point regarding depth of any further price movement, I will agree with your implication that there remains a possibility that we could witness depth.  Accordingly, my assessment is that trade volume has been relatively high in the past few weeks, and if one side or the other runs out of coins or fiat, then that could cause some violent price movement.. surely, there is no "given" when it comes to the extensiveness of price movements; however, when we are experiencing considerable trade volume for a couple of weeks, there are increased chances that it would not simmer down without a bit of drama... .. and gosh, either direction does still seem plausible.. even as soon as over this weekend -

Do you mean the wall of 2,029BTC for sale at $3650?    That's a little over $7million.    Do you think that it will get eaten or pulled?  Or do you think that it is going to cause the price to go down?

Sometimes those kinds of walls are reverse indicators, but I agree that 2k coins at these prices does add up to a lot of value.

Well, I personally believe that it is unethical to talk your book in these kinds of threads, so I guess I do not know how it works in terms of exaggerating for the sake of inducing others.  On the other hand, sometimes, when I am personally fearful that the price is going to go the opposite way of my preference (that is usually down), sometimes, I just won't say anything about my internal beliefs...  .. and maybe that is a bit of a biased in my sometimes content.

Furthermore, I attempt to create a buy/sell strategy in which I hedge for either price direction, and accordingly, I try to keep my feelings out of my trades.  Therefore, even though I tend to have some preferences that my orders get filled (especially when they are getting close to getting filled, and my buy/sell increments tend to be relatively small - currently a bit less than 3%, so I feel like I am not really greedy or desperate in filling my orders), I set my orders up in such a way that I attempt to minimize my feelings - even though I feel like I have gotten a lot fucking richer - largely from our unexpected more than 3x BTC price rise for calendar 2017 - life is good...

You sound like a bit of an exaggerator.   For what purpose?  Effect?

Yeah.. there is no in between when it comes to candle closing colors, it is either going to go green or red.

Regarding depth, who fucking knows?  currently, it is not even clear which direction it is going to go, so how would we presume any kind of further step about depth? 

In the beginning of the week, I was more inclined to predict that this week's candle would be green and even that we were heading back up - after recent price performance, I am a bit more torn about which direction is more likely - it could go either way, and there may even be a slight edge to down, but that slight edge does not mean that the down would be BIG, or even long lasting.

I cannot promise because you guys are a tough audience.  You fucks!!!!   

I will be interesting to se whether this week's candle is red or green.  Right now, we are bouncing a bit below the turning point for the candle, and it appears that it needs to be above $3660 in order to be green.  Two more days and 2.5 more hours, before it closes.

You could be correct that in the long trajectory, any decentralized system of crypto currency will become coopted - however, in the meantime, that is not the situation, and who gives a ratt's ass what happens 500 years from now.  We chose our investment and support based on the present situation, rather than some speculative situation that has not yet come to pass.

In the mean time, we have bitcoin, which is a new paradigm that has the potential to surplant all previous systems - and right now, bitcoin is a small fucking entity that has a lot of upside potential in this regard, in the short term(1-5 years) medium term 10-20 years and longer term (50+ years).  If factors change, then we can adjust, but none of us know exactly how all of this is going to evolve and the level to which governments and/or financial institutions and/or other factors are going to infiltrate bitcoin and cause various abilities to change it and control it... at the moment it is proving to be amongst the most decentralized and powerful institutions (if we call it that) ever built... and we should treat it according to what it actually is and has the potential to be and don't be misguided into some scenario that is currently not what we got.  Am I not correct?

Looks like you are talking a bunch of bullshit.  If your goal is to be right, then you just make up a bunch of shit, and then try to suggest that you are speaking some kind of truth.

Get a fucking grip..  We are in a bitcoin bull market.  You understand that?  we have been in such bull market since about late 2015 - of course we did NOT realize that we were in a bull market until about May 0f 2016 - however, frequently it takes several months to work out the market direction and to determine whether there is a change in market direction.. and even if you happen to be correct that the market direction is turning downwards, we are not likely to know that for several months, and we certainly are not going to know that merely because we had a 40% price correction from $4980 to $2972 - even when that market correction was immediately preceded by a price increase of nearly 90% from $2600 to $4980. 

So get real if you are trying to assert that prices are going down, when the overall direction has been up, and we are not even below the price in which we started in the most recent bump (which is $2600)... So if we go below $2600, then possibly we could consider thinking about down - however, I would suggest that the price had better go a hell-of-a lot lower than $2600 if you are going have some actual market movement to back up your currntly fictitious  downward assertions.

In other words, this is called a consolidation or a correction zone and not some kind of sign that bitcoin is on some kind of  downwardly trajectory for any meaningful period.

If you only bought BTC at $4500, and you did not buy any other BTC at any other price point, then surely it would be a good idea to buy a bit more right now, and to bring down your average cost per BTC.  If you are engaging in incrementalism buying and you have a view of bitcoin for the future, then you are going to work out some incrementalism buying strategy, and it is not going to matter whole hell-of-a lot whether your average cost per BTC is currently $4500 or $3700 or some price point in between because you should just be slowly building up your holdings and trying to be a reasonable and prudent as you can be in order to continue to HODL and to accumulate.. and maybe even sell a little bit, If you have some coins that have an average cost that is lower than your selling point.


So yeah, attempting to paint some pure case about someone who stagnantly bought at $4500 seems to be a strawman assertion about a kind of buyer that is not engaged in a prudent and incrementalist buying/accumulation strategy.

Bear markets take several months to confirm - they are not confirmed by a downturn of a few weeks...   

Get a grip.   

Tell me what you are going to do, BMB, in order that I can do the opposite.   

Buy?  Sell?


And, don't be working me with any reverse psychology.  Come straight with me.    

You are mixing together a variety of ideas - and sure it becomes easy to get all fucking mixed up about a variety of the concepts and the supposed deficiencies in bitcoin that are propagated by a large number of bitcoin challengers from a variety of perspectives.

If we attempt to look at bitcoin's situation in context - and even let's say from about 2013 and then more recent contentions that began to amplify in about mid-to-late 2015.

In 2013, we had two explosive growth periods that resulted in nearly an 80x increase in price from $15 to $1163, then year long correction through 2014 that brought BTC prices into the mid $250s for most of 2015.   Sure, some of the correction was probably necessary and natural; however, there was a lot of misinformation spread about bitcoin too.. and even starting in late 2015, with the various scale or die proposals that went from XT, to Classic, to emergent consensus, to B-cash (and also segwit2x).  

A lot of these scaling talking points were campaigns by persons with purported differing visions of bitcoin; however, they were also propagated and supported by forces that were hostile to bitcoin (whether banksters or government or other traditional institutions that felt threatened by the decentralized nature of bitcoin).  So there has been a constant guise that suggests various ways that bitcoin is technically deficient (or that it should have goals to immediately be able to compete with visa) , while the real goal has been to attempt to undermine bitcoin's governance and to make bitcoin easier to change.  So if there is some way to accomplish undermining the governance of bitcoin and to make bitcoin easier to change, then bitcoin becomes no longer decentralized, no longer a threat, no longer valuable.  So whether you are a banker, a government official or some short-sighted alt coin pumper, your goal may have been to consider it in your interest to undermine bitcoin and to join alliances with these various big blocker camps and to spread propaganda, including your point about whether proof of stake is better than proof of work.  Further nonsense asserting deficiencies in POW, which really is part of the innovativeness that bitcoin brings to the table and differentiates it from previous systems.

So, in essence what I am saying is that a lot of the information that we have been encountering have been guises to undermine bitcoin, and if you can see through the nonsense, then you won't get your bitcoin's shaken from you you will continue to BUYDL and HODL... and just try to accumulate to the best of your ability without overinvesting (because everyone has to surely attempt to cover his/her monthly expenses and not get shook out of bitcoin because of volatility and bad planning of those expenses in advance and with strategies whether you have high income or low income).




I would not get too worried about the variety of upstarts, even if they are supposedly technically superior.  The problem with a lot of them is they are not truly decentralized, including Ethereum.  Bitcoin is really the only game in town with a bunch of competitors trying to attempt to act like they are Bitcoin 2.0 or that bitcoin is dead or that bitcoin is technologically deficient.. blah blah blah.

On the other hand, if you have some faith in the long term prospects of some other coin(s) to take over bitcoin market share or to possibly surplant it, then of course, you can put some of your money in that direction.  Each of us are going to come to different judgements regarding the viability of these various other projects and whether there is much of any truth in the various bitcoin is dead or broken claims.



Sure there is some truth to the claims about first mover advantage, but the fundamentals are much greater than a simplified description of first mover advantage.  A lot of bitcoin denigrator folks strive to put down bitcoin by suggesting that bitcoin is technologically deficient and that all it's got going for it is it's first mover advantage - which frequently involves over exaggerated claims - and a bunch of fucking so what.  Bitcoin is a project that competes on the merits and does not have marketing - and so there are a bunch of folks in bitcoin working on a bunch of scattered projects that are going to take a long time to innovate, improve and adopt.  And, bitcoin's security and computing power brings value. Even if 80% of the miners were to leave bitcoin, bitcoin is still secure - but don't get me wrong, I doubt that there is going to be any vast exodus from bitcoin.. because the value remains with various networking effects that continue with bitcoin.. and if we see it leave or believe it is leaving then, there would be an advantage to leave, as well, but those various projects that you name are not threat to bitcoin as you seem to imply, including Ethereum.


I think that Ripple was around before bitcoin, but it was transformed in light of bitcoin, so yeah.. ripple attempts to be another distractive competitor that is also largely centralized and manipulated in its own rights.


I don't think that we can really say that there is any best - because sure there are better case scenarios that could play out, but in the end, the market is going to evolve and folks are going to chose where to invest and systems will adapt to such movements.  Don't get me wrong, because there is almost no fucking way that bitcoin is going to become wide spread adopted without a large number of continued battles that may well become more and more intense during any time periods that banks, governments, traditional institutions believe that they have ways to attempt to undermine and/or weaken it.  In the meantime, expect continued manipulation, volatility and misinformation, and try not to gets scared or shaken away from the level of bitcoin that you believe to be prudent for your own financial, timeline and viewpoint circumstances.

Either way, I hope you are putting your money where your mouth is - because you seem to be hedging too much in the down direction (or hoping - and spouting out certainty FUD in order to attempt to get your down wish to come true), and it could be a painful lesson.

My point is that nothing is certain in bitcoin whether that is down or up, and I am hedged in both direction, even though I currently conclude that our odds for 15% up are a bit greater than our odds for 15% down (maybe 55% for up and 45% for down?).. I am not going to bet too heavily either way (even though of course, I have money invested in bitcoin, so of course, i am better off if the price goes up.. which seems that there continues to be ongoing upwards price pressures)

Look at you, white knighting as well with your royal "we" references regarding the sentiments of the supposed helpless majority..         Welcome back, you fuck!!!