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That statement is a pile of shit.
There is no way one employee decides to release this on their own.
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I would prob argue that graphics cards can be resold just fine unless they are damaged, while a special built FPGA for LTC mining would be a different story altogether. Not that I or anyone really care, if you buy a LTC custom FPGA I would assume you do it with a ROI within reason and resale value not included. Otherwise you have to be nuts!
Well first off, it is not a LTC custom FPGA. It is a LTC, FTC, BBQ, TBX capable FPGA and a possible incentive to think about getting merged mining implemented in the Scrypt-coin world too if you want to extend the usefulness of the device. Maybe by the time LTC, FTC, BBQ and TBX are all far too difficult for the device to effectively mine they could all be merged together and some newer ones thrown into the merge too, extending the useful lifetime of the device. -MarkM- Hashing scrypt efficiently is a useful capability. There are other things an fpga can be used for as well. |
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ok i removed 8gb of my 10gb rig running 5x7950
start cgminer:
[2013-04-30 21:23:01] Thread 1 being disabled
[2013-04-30 21:23:01] Error -5: Enqueueing kernel onto command queue. (clEnque
eNDRangeKernel)
[2013-04-30 21:23:01] GPU 4 failure, disabling!
[2013-04-30 21:23:01] Thread 4 being disabled
[2013-04-30 21:23:02] API running in IP access mode on port 4028 (22592)
[2013-04-30 21:23:03] Pool 0 stratum+tcp://stratum.give-me-ltc.com:3333 alive
[2013-04-30 21:23:03] Switching to pool 0 stratum+tcp://stratum.give-me-ltc.co
:3333
solution?
Put the ram back.  |
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No offense, but you're in the minority, not the majority. Also, GPUs hold more value than FPGAs for one simple reason, demand. The demand for GPUs is much higher than it is for FPGAs because the market is many times larger.
It's true. My accounting factors in resale value for the rigs I build, subtracting depreciation, it's a sizable chunk of change. On the other hand Bitcoin FPGAs had a high resale value up to the point ASICs came out. Now they are drastically depreciating. And everyone's variables are different. Like people in this thread have mentioned. Some live in areas where electricity costs are prohibitive to mining others have offloaded the electrical costs to their landlords, employers, the parents they still live with. We can't determine if the FPGA are viable just because its not viable to ourselves. There will be a market for it. People with high electricity costs will buy it outright. Others like myself pay anywhere between .07 to .14 USD per kW. I have to determine if buying FPGAs (paying the premium over GPUs for them) is better than the rates I'm paying plus the additional investment in adding more service, or finding a location to run them from. I don't think FPGA will break LTC coins. I'm expecting that they will be priced factoring the electrical savings one would get and a premium to to their initial scarcity. I understand your point of view. I was thinking about the average American when I was making my points, not just myself. Here in the US, electricity rates are quite reasonable for most people. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say about the value of GPUs vs FPGAs. The reason I think GPUs definitely hold more value than FPGAs is because of demand, not because of the items themselves. Gamers create a much larger market for GPUs than the FPGA market that is created by miners (by miners I mean people who are into mining enough to buy a dedicated mining device like an FPGA, not people who casually mine with their GPU when they're not gaming). Basically, there are many times more gamers than miners, thus allowing GPUs to hold their value longer. Fpgas have value apart from being "mining devices". If they are being sold for more than that value, they are being sold for more than they are worth. I may not represent you in the US, but I doubt I'm in the minority world wide. Most people in the world don't have central air and 200 amp home service. This may be true for 'general' FPGA's but the specialized FPGS's we are talking about that focus on LTC mining will have close to zero resale value over what they are worth for mining. And I would assume far lower resale value then graphics cards. If you know what a Field Programmable Gate Array is, that statement doesn't make the slightest bit of sense whatsoever. And GPUs that have been run overclocked and maxed for years? I doubt they have a lot of resale value, if any. |
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My 4x 7950 rig is currently humming along at over 2400k, so it certainly doesn't seem to be limited by 4 gigs of ram. When you're building one rig, I guess it doesn't matter that much. I have a couple, so I don't like wasting money on things that aren't necessary for mining. 4x 7950s = $1200 CPU / mobo = $150 USB Drive = $25 4 gigs ram = $25 1200W Power Supply = $150 Linux Ubuntu 12.04 = free Crate case / risers = $50 Total = $1600 for 2400k You can also sell the Never Settled bundles and bring down the cost even more. This guide by tacotime is a good place to start: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=163306.0That's a great guide, and he says to use 8GB of ram... |
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I know that he is using it for litecoin, and the need for more than 4GB of RAM for 4 cards is still false.
I have a litecoin mining rig running right now with 4GB of ram and 4 7950s using cgminer.
I'm a little new at this, but everything I can find on this forum says you need more ram to support higher thread concurrency to maximize the cards' potential. No reason it wouldn't run with less ram, but your thread concurrency would be limited. When ram is probably the cheapest component, why scrimp to save a couple of dollars and limit yourself? |
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"You're going to need more than 4GB ram for four cards. At least double it."
The statement above is false. 4GB of ram is plenty for four cards if you're using cgminer. I believe reaper requires more ram, which is why people keep saying this, but I'm not sure why anyone would use reaper over cgminer at this time.
He's planning to use it for litecoin, not bitcoin. The rule of thumb for 7970s, as far as I can find, is 1.5GB per card. |
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1100w power supply should be okay from what I can find.
I guess you're planning on using risers and some custom case? 7970's are going to get you between 600 and 650kh/s, not 750. You might get 700 if you can really push them, but it's not likely. The highest I've ever been able to get is about 690, and they really weren't stable there. Gigabyte 7970C's.
You're going to need more than 4GB ram for four cards. At least double it.
There are better motherboards if you're going to run four cards off of one.
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No offense, but you're in the minority, not the majority. Also, GPUs hold more value than FPGAs for one simple reason, demand. The demand for GPUs is much higher than it is for FPGAs because the market is many times larger.
It's true. My accounting factors in resale value for the rigs I build, subtracting depreciation, it's a sizable chunk of change. On the other hand Bitcoin FPGAs had a high resale value up to the point ASICs came out. Now they are drastically depreciating. And everyone's variables are different. Like people in this thread have mentioned. Some live in areas where electricity costs are prohibitive to mining others have offloaded the electrical costs to their landlords, employers, the parents they still live with. We can't determine if the FPGA are viable just because its not viable to ourselves. There will be a market for it. People with high electricity costs will buy it outright. Others like myself pay anywhere between .07 to .14 USD per kW. I have to determine if buying FPGAs (paying the premium over GPUs for them) is better than the rates I'm paying plus the additional investment in adding more service, or finding a location to run them from. I don't think FPGA will break LTC coins. I'm expecting that they will be priced factoring the electrical savings one would get and a premium to to their initial scarcity. I understand your point of view. I was thinking about the average American when I was making my points, not just myself. Here in the US, electricity rates are quite reasonable for most people. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say about the value of GPUs vs FPGAs. The reason I think GPUs definitely hold more value than FPGAs is because of demand, not because of the items themselves. Gamers create a much larger market for GPUs than the FPGA market that is created by miners (by miners I mean people who are into mining enough to buy a dedicated mining device like an FPGA, not people who casually mine with their GPU when they're not gaming). Basically, there are many times more gamers than miners, thus allowing GPUs to hold their value longer. Fpgas have value apart from being "mining devices". If they are being sold for more than that value, they are being sold for more than they are worth. I may not represent you in the US, but I doubt I'm in the minority world wide. Most people in the world don't have central air and 200 amp home service. |
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obviously I would be highly interested but I'm also high interested in what the performance increase is really going to be. I think the excitement over these devices is based on the fact people know the next step in Bitcoin mining was FPGA's and they are expecting a similar improvement in hashing when thinking of a scrypt mining FPGA. I just do not see the gains being worth it, but perhaps I will be wrong. Considering something like a 7970 gets 650-700 kh/s at 200 watts a card (excluding cpu/mb wattage for arguements sake) and one can safely assume the 8970's will be in the 750-800 kh/s maybe even 850 kh/s at around the same watts or possibly less - I just do not see there being good enough gains to justify it.
Trust me though - I PRAY that I am wrong. But I'm also thinking these things aren't going to be cheap. So while you may save on electricity because say it only eats 75-100 watts (its just going to consume more power then a bitcoin fpga because of the memory, lets face it) If your getting saying 800-900 kh/s for I''m guessing around $1000-1500 somewhere in there? To get to my current hashrate I'd be looking at around a 7 unit array at 7000-10,000 investment.
That' s a whole lot of electricity before I finally break even. At roughly a 1300 watt savings a month, your looking at what... $1500 a year in savings for electricty. The initial investment in my rigs was a little over 3k so your looking at a minimum of 2 years before you start to see any kind of return. And that is figuring things at my high 13.8 cents a kw/h cost! There are a lot of people that pay a lot less which means your looking at an even longer time frame before you are able to see any kind of return.
And at the end of it what do you have? Something you MAY be able to sell for use as a miner or sold to someone to re-purpose or play with for an extreme discount. Where as the GPU's you would at least be able to offload to possibly miners - but there will ALWAYS be a gaming market.
Maybe I'm not looking at this 100% correctly and I'm completely open to hearing other peoples opinions on the matter. I just can not see the benefit for scrypt mining. Maybe in an asic device? Because then you might be able to crank out redonkulous hashing power at very little wattage. Then, we are talking about something that makes a bit of sense. Sure, the asic device can't be used for anything else but mining. But at least the hashing power to wattage used will be advantageous enough to warrant the risk.
This pretty much sums up my exact thinking. These FPGAs need to be at an absolute minimum 1.5Kh/$ to even be worth it. In addition to the points made in the quoted post, you also have to factor in that computer hardware can be resold more easily and GPUs obviously hold more value than a custom-made FPGA. Yes, heat is an issue when running a sizeable GPU farm, but it's not that big an issue and is a little overblown in my opinion. Heat and power usage are HUGE issues, depending on where you live. I live in Japan -- I can basically support one single computer running up to three 7970's in my apartment. That's it, for both power consumption and heat dissipation reasons (in the summer -- it's so cold in the winter time I'll just open the windows in the computer room and let the outside air do the cooling). An FPGA, even if it were more expensive, could alleviate my issues significantly. If the power and heat came down, I could run a far more expansive system. GPU's certainly hold resale value to computer gamers, but FPGAs have resale value as well, arguably more as they can be reprogrammed to do other things. I suspect most of the bitcoin fpga networks are going to get sold off and repurposed to do other things eventually as the ASIC devices take over the market and make them unprofitable to run. |
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Sorry to be obtuse... but with Buy/Sell orders on Gox, what value does a trading bot do for you???
The question isn't really about a trading bot. The author is trying to figure out how to get closed source software trusted enough to be used. A bot that does nothing but trade on mtgox could be trivially reverse engineered to find out whatever super secret algorithm is used. |
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Is it important that your bot remain closed source? I don't have anything against closed source, but if you're willing to give access to your source code to those on the beta list, who could potentially release it themselves, why not just release the code to the public?
Hi nitrous Yes it is necessary that the bot remain closed source. The business model will be embedded in the source code and I can't allow people to just comment out those lines. People on betalist will have to sign an NDA and will face consequences if distributing the source without authorisation. Thank you again for your suggestions! That's extraordinarily poor design Hi joshki, I'd love to hear from you better designed solutions. Why? I have no desire to enable you, or teach you basic software design. |
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Is it important that your bot remain closed source? I don't have anything against closed source, but if you're willing to give access to your source code to those on the beta list, who could potentially release it themselves, why not just release the code to the public?
Hi nitrous Yes it is necessary that the bot remain closed source. The business model will be embedded in the source code and I can't allow people to just comment out those lines. People on betalist will have to sign an NDA and will face consequences if distributing the source without authorisation. Thank you again for your suggestions! That's extraordinarily poor design |
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feel free to shoot me an email if you want me to do it eventually, I'm extremely busy and don't check this forum as often as I wish I could, I'm in graduate school and preparing for a deployment at the moment.
At the moment I just threw up the php cgminer monitor script I found on github on a webserver on my network at home and use that to monitor the one machine I have running at the moment -- runs okay, but gives no options to control anything. It seems like you've got some good options for controlling a mining operation in this, that would be extremely helpful.
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Of course, not everyone reads the source code of everything they run -- even if it is open source. But the source code being available allows the community as a whole to examine it (and someone will, most likely), and eventually malicious code will likely be exposed, the author's reputation destroyed, etc. This is much more difficult when the source code is not available and the author is unknown.
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The problem is this. Nobody knows who you are.
Interesting. Does it imply that you'd trust using my application if you knew who I am? In this case, what do you need to know? What if I attach to the bin files a folder with my ID, CV, Address, Certificate of residence? Is that enough? Maybe we should hang out quite a bit before you can use my application. A beer? I make you an example : I'm on couchsurfing. Couchsurfing is an online board, just like this one. Despite this, more than 2 million people are sleeping in eachother's houses for free. I constantly host people, mostly strangers. I trust them after I read their references. This forum kind of misses the feedback system of CS, and I'm searching for an alternative to it. I can't have a beer with everyone of you... so, here I am, asking you what i'd take to 'trust' me. Yeah, the problem with the couchsurfing thing is that even if someone has some good references, I can't know that they're not just looking for the right opportunity to do something they shouldn't. Same thing with knowing who you are -- it takes more than just reading your CV or something like that -- you have to have enough actual knowledge about someone and trust that they don't have ulterior motives. The possibility for abuse with something like this is so high that it's unlikely you're going to convince people to trust code they can't see. |
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If the application is closed source, it will not be trusted. That's the bottom line.
Hi joshki. I agree with you as long as you define what it means to be 'trusted'. There are several (thousands) levels of ' trust' . I already admitted that this is not trivial and the trust in the application is bounded by this closed-source constraint. I want to see how far I can push trust within the boundaries of the problem space. The problem is this. Nobody knows who you are. Nobody knows who the developers of *most* open source software are -- but we can open the source code and review it, and eventually enough people have done that to give that software some level of trust from the community. With commercial software, if Microsoft does something bad with their software, everybody knows who they are, and they have some level of trust based on who they are, and the consequences if they do something they shouldn't. You're a guy posting on an internet board. If you want trust from this kind of community, you have little option other than to open your source. |
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You cannot do what you wish to do.
If the application is closed source, it will not be trusted. That's the bottom line.
Publish your source or live with it.
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At 8:30PM PST tonight I received an email notification that money had been transfered out of my Mtgox account totalling $2777 USD. Somebody who accessed my account bought BTC at 128.9 and then transfered the entire contents of my account out except for $7.00 .I was logged into my own computer at the time in Bellevue,WA. The trade notification from MTGOX lists the IP as 63.141.253.124 which shows in the state of Kansas. I have opened three help tickets with MTGOX, two were closed with no notes or notification and no response in the last hour twenty.
My question for the forum;
Is there any recourse on my side?
Has this happened to anybody else?
Will I get my money back?
If i get my money back I will immeadiately purchase a Yubikey for some two-factor authentication
THanks,
The IP is a colo in Kansas City. Odds aren't good, they're probably using a server there that they hacked, you'll have to track down the administrator of that server, convince him to let you look at logs there, and those may simply point to another hacked server. Money's probably just gone. |
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