BlockBurner LLC - Crucible FPGA Scrypt Miner - Announcement Aug-19

[TheSwede75]

No offense, but you're in the minority, not the majority.  Also, GPUs hold more value than FPGAs for one simple reason, demand.  The demand for GPUs is much higher than it is for FPGAs because the market is many times larger.

It's true.  My accounting factors in resale value for the rigs I build, subtracting depreciation, it's a sizable chunk of change.  On the other hand Bitcoin FPGAs had a high resale value up to the point ASICs came out.  Now they are drastically depreciating.

And everyone's variables are different.  Like people in this thread have mentioned.  Some live in areas where electricity costs are prohibitive to mining others have offloaded the electrical costs to their landlords, employers, the parents they still live with.  We can't determine if the FPGA are viable just because its not viable to ourselves.  There will be a market for it.  People with high electricity costs will buy it outright.  Others like myself pay anywhere between .07 to .14 USD per kW.  I have to determine if buying FPGAs (paying the premium over GPUs for them) is better than the rates I'm  paying plus the additional investment in adding more service, or finding a location to run them from.


I don't think FPGA will break LTC coins.  I'm expecting that they will be priced factoring the electrical savings one would get and a premium to to their initial scarcity.

I understand your point of view.  I was thinking about the average American when I was making my points, not just myself.  Here in the US, electricity rates are quite reasonable for most people. 

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say about the value of GPUs vs FPGAs.  The reason I think GPUs definitely hold more value than FPGAs is because of demand, not because of the items themselves.  Gamers create a much larger market for GPUs than the FPGA market that is created by miners (by miners I mean people who are into mining enough to buy a dedicated mining device like an FPGA, not people who casually mine with their GPU when they're not gaming).  Basically, there are many times more gamers than miners, thus allowing GPUs to hold their value longer.

Fpgas have value apart from being "mining devices". If they are being sold for more than that value, they are being sold for more than they are worth.

I may not represent you in the US, but I doubt I'm in the minority world wide. Most people in the world don't have central air and 200 amp home service.

This may be true for 'general' FPGA's but the specialized FPGS's we are talking about that focus on LTC mining will have close to zero resale value over what they are worth for mining. And I would assume far lower resale value then graphics cards.

[joshki]

No offense, but you're in the minority, not the majority.  Also, GPUs hold more value than FPGAs for one simple reason, demand.  The demand for GPUs is much higher than it is for FPGAs because the market is many times larger.

It's true.  My accounting factors in resale value for the rigs I build, subtracting depreciation, it's a sizable chunk of change.  On the other hand Bitcoin FPGAs had a high resale value up to the point ASICs came out.  Now they are drastically depreciating.

And everyone's variables are different.  Like people in this thread have mentioned.  Some live in areas where electricity costs are prohibitive to mining others have offloaded the electrical costs to their landlords, employers, the parents they still live with.  We can't determine if the FPGA are viable just because its not viable to ourselves.  There will be a market for it.  People with high electricity costs will buy it outright.  Others like myself pay anywhere between .07 to .14 USD per kW.  I have to determine if buying FPGAs (paying the premium over GPUs for them) is better than the rates I'm  paying plus the additional investment in adding more service, or finding a location to run them from.


I don't think FPGA will break LTC coins.  I'm expecting that they will be priced factoring the electrical savings one would get and a premium to to their initial scarcity.

I understand your point of view.  I was thinking about the average American when I was making my points, not just myself.  Here in the US, electricity rates are quite reasonable for most people. 

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say about the value of GPUs vs FPGAs.  The reason I think GPUs definitely hold more value than FPGAs is because of demand, not because of the items themselves.  Gamers create a much larger market for GPUs than the FPGA market that is created by miners (by miners I mean people who are into mining enough to buy a dedicated mining device like an FPGA, not people who casually mine with their GPU when they're not gaming).  Basically, there are many times more gamers than miners, thus allowing GPUs to hold their value longer.

Fpgas have value apart from being "mining devices". If they are being sold for more than that value, they are being sold for more than they are worth.

I may not represent you in the US, but I doubt I'm in the minority world wide. Most people in the world don't have central air and 200 amp home service.

This may be true for 'general' FPGA's but the specialized FPGS's we are talking about that focus on LTC mining will have close to zero resale value over what they are worth for mining. And I would assume far lower resale value then graphics cards.

If you know what a Field Programmable Gate Array is, that statement doesn't make the slightest bit of sense whatsoever.

And GPUs that have been run overclocked and maxed for years?  I doubt they have a lot of resale value, if any.

[zhunifa]

I am very interested , but do not want to BFL this long of wait . This is a failed company .

[TheSwede75]

No offense, but you're in the minority, not the majority.  Also, GPUs hold more value than FPGAs for one simple reason, demand.  The demand for GPUs is much higher than it is for FPGAs because the market is many times larger.

It's true.  My accounting factors in resale value for the rigs I build, subtracting depreciation, it's a sizable chunk of change.  On the other hand Bitcoin FPGAs had a high resale value up to the point ASICs came out.  Now they are drastically depreciating.

And everyone's variables are different.  Like people in this thread have mentioned.  Some live in areas where electricity costs are prohibitive to mining others have offloaded the electrical costs to their landlords, employers, the parents they still live with.  We can't determine if the FPGA are viable just because its not viable to ourselves.  There will be a market for it.  People with high electricity costs will buy it outright.  Others like myself pay anywhere between .07 to .14 USD per kW.  I have to determine if buying FPGAs (paying the premium over GPUs for them) is better than the rates I'm  paying plus the additional investment in adding more service, or finding a location to run them from.


I don't think FPGA will break LTC coins.  I'm expecting that they will be priced factoring the electrical savings one would get and a premium to to their initial scarcity.

I understand your point of view.  I was thinking about the average American when I was making my points, not just myself.  Here in the US, electricity rates are quite reasonable for most people. 

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say about the value of GPUs vs FPGAs.  The reason I think GPUs definitely hold more value than FPGAs is because of demand, not because of the items themselves.  Gamers create a much larger market for GPUs than the FPGA market that is created by miners (by miners I mean people who are into mining enough to buy a dedicated mining device like an FPGA, not people who casually mine with their GPU when they're not gaming).  Basically, there are many times more gamers than miners, thus allowing GPUs to hold their value longer.

Fpgas have value apart from being "mining devices". If they are being sold for more than that value, they are being sold for more than they are worth.

I may not represent you in the US, but I doubt I'm in the minority world wide. Most people in the world don't have central air and 200 amp home service.

This may be true for 'general' FPGA's but the specialized FPGS's we are talking about that focus on LTC mining will have close to zero resale value over what they are worth for mining. And I would assume far lower resale value then graphics cards.

If you know what a Field Programmable Gate Array is, that statement doesn't make the slightest bit of sense whatsoever.

And GPUs that have been run overclocked and maxed for years?  I doubt they have a lot of resale value, if any.

I would prob argue that graphics cards can be resold just fine unless they are damaged, while a special built FPGA for LTC mining would be a different story altogether. Not that I or anyone really care, if you buy a LTC custom FPGA I would assume you do it with a ROI within reason and resale value not included. Otherwise you have to be nuts!

[TheSwede75]

I am very interested , but do not want to BFL this long of wait . This is a failed company .

You should prob just leave and take some English lessons.

[markm]

I would prob argue that graphics cards can be resold just fine unless they are damaged, while a special built FPGA for LTC mining would be a different story altogether. Not that I or anyone really care, if you buy a LTC custom FPGA I would assume you do it with a ROI within reason and resale value not included. Otherwise you have to be nuts!

Well first off, it is not a LTC custom FPGA.

It is a LTC, FTC, BBQ, TBX capable FPGA and a possible incentive to think about getting merged mining implemented in the Scrypt-coin world too if you want to extend the usefulness of the device.

Maybe by the time LTC, FTC, BBQ and TBX are all far too difficult for the device to effectively mine they could all be merged together and some newer ones thrown into the merge too, extending the useful lifetime of the device.

-MarkM-

[mjc]

1. Do you think the market and community is ready for FPGA Litecoin?

2. Is there definite interest in FPGA Litecoin machines? Would you buy one if the price was reasonable? What is reasonable?

3. Would you pre-order one to support first round funding for prototyping and first wave production? (I'm no one but a lowly computer specialist and budding entrepreneur burned by Big Banking already, so this would have to be crowd funded to get started without a loan shark involved. You would be relying on me to deliver the goods and not squander the investment with idiotic decisions, even still you would stand to lose your pre-order through economic issues and unseen factors, so there is a risk to early adopters as with all things, though Im thinking of other incentives for early participants once it gets off the ground, what kind of incentives come to mind to make the investment more attractive to you?)

1) If it can work yes.
2) Always if there is money to be made.
3) Yes I"m in for some.

[Operatr]

I am very interested , but do not want to BFL this long of wait . This is a failed company .

Our timeline in fact is shaping up quickly, though I cannot give specifics on the near future, I can say there will not be a year long wait without updates (because that is ridiculous). If everyone is still waiting a year from today for this device , I would be inclined to agree with you on our many failings.

I would prob argue that graphics cards can be resold just fine unless they are damaged, while a special built FPGA for LTC mining would be a different story altogether. Not that I or anyone really care, if you buy a LTC custom FPGA I would assume you do it with a ROI within reason and resale value not included. Otherwise you have to be nuts!

Well first off, it is not a LTC custom FPGA.

It is a LTC, FTC, BBQ, TBX capable FPGA and a possible incentive to think about getting merged mining implemented in the Scrypt-coin world too if you want to extend the usefulness of the device.

Maybe by the time LTC, FTC, BBQ and TBX are all far too difficult for the device to effectively mine they could all be merged together and some newer ones thrown into the merge too, extending the useful lifetime of the device.

-MarkM-

Yes indeed, overall, just like Bitcoin ASICs are in fact SHA356 hashers that can work with a variety of altcoins, our Scrypt optimized board would work on any Litecoin derived coin. Scrypt is used beyond Litecoin as well, making this machine useful for a variety of cryptographic processing.

[Sidorovich]

I'm interested in one of these, as long as it's easy to use. I would be able to pre-order one too.

[joshki]

I would prob argue that graphics cards can be resold just fine unless they are damaged, while a special built FPGA for LTC mining would be a different story altogether. Not that I or anyone really care, if you buy a LTC custom FPGA I would assume you do it with a ROI within reason and resale value not included. Otherwise you have to be nuts!

Well first off, it is not a LTC custom FPGA.

It is a LTC, FTC, BBQ, TBX capable FPGA and a possible incentive to think about getting merged mining implemented in the Scrypt-coin world too if you want to extend the usefulness of the device.

Maybe by the time LTC, FTC, BBQ and TBX are all far too difficult for the device to effectively mine they could all be merged together and some newer ones thrown into the merge too, extending the useful lifetime of the device.

-MarkM-

Hashing scrypt efficiently is a useful capability.

There are other things an fpga can be used for as well.

[Operatr]

Well, I am getting bombarded with messages! There is a little backlog for me to chew through but if you sent me something I will get back to you in the next day or two.

Overall incredible response guys, from well-wishers to the hardest core miners, we really do appreciate it. The team is off and running charting out hardware and developing our business structure. For only being about 1.5 weeks old, we have already grown tremendously.



For devs applying, frankly we have about 5x more than needed for the moment! As much as I wish I could include everyone that had interest in helping out, I simply can't. I had no expectation that we would have so many interested to be a part of this, which is both amazing to see but sad that I must turn the majority of you down for this one.

But, it is obvious that 1) There is serious passion around these boards and 2) You guys really want to be involved in a community project. So, dev applicants, though you may not be able to be on the core BlockBurner FPGA team (for now), I am thinking about doing something else. I will be getting back to all of you in time to get some feedback on this.


Operatr

[blastbob]

I will vacuum the dev office for boards...

[newtothescene]

This looks to be moving along nicely  Since there are so many people volunteering to help out, maybe you should appoint a spokesman (or woman) that their only responsibility is communication to the interested parties.  I believe that you have been doing a great job informing us of progress but I know how easy it is to be consumed with a big project.  At any rate, I am excited for your progress and look forward to further updates as your team moves forward.

Cheers!
New

[TheSwede75]

Well, I am getting bombarded with messages! There is a little backlog for me to chew through but if you sent me something I will get back to you in the next day or two.

Overall incredible response guys, from well-wishers to the hardest core miners, we really do appreciate it. The team is off and running charting out hardware and developing our business structure. For only being about 1.5 weeks old, we have already grown tremendously.



For devs applying, frankly we have about 5x more than needed for the moment! As much as I wish I could include everyone that had interest in helping out, I simply can't. I had no expectation that we would have so many interested to be a part of this, which is both amazing to see but sad that I must turn the majority of you down for this one.

But, it is obvious that 1) There is serious passion around these boards and 2) You guys really want to be involved in a community project. So, dev applicants, though you may not be able to be on the core BlockBurner FPGA team (for now), I am thinking about doing something else. I will be getting back to all of you in time to get some feedback on this.


Operatr

I am way under qualified for engineering work but when it comes to design, marketing and business end I would be happy to lend my time and knowledge. My day-job is as marketing/product manager at a tech start up. 

[TheSwede75]

I would prob argue that graphics cards can be resold just fine unless they are damaged, while a special built FPGA for LTC mining would be a different story altogether. Not that I or anyone really care, if you buy a LTC custom FPGA I would assume you do it with a ROI within reason and resale value not included. Otherwise you have to be nuts!

Well first off, it is not a LTC custom FPGA.

It is a LTC, FTC, BBQ, TBX capable FPGA and a possible incentive to think about getting merged mining implemented in the Scrypt-coin world too if you want to extend the usefulness of the device.

Maybe by the time LTC, FTC, BBQ and TBX are all far too difficult for the device to effectively mine they could all be merged together and some newer ones thrown into the merge too, extending the useful lifetime of the device.

-MarkM-

MarkM,
I am not arguing its a bad idea (hell I am super excited) or a bad investment. I am purely stating that a specialized scrypt solving FPGA would have less resale value for general purposes then a FPGA board with standard specs would, while GPU has 'gaming' to fall back on.

Super cool project and I would definitely be lining up to be part of pre order and development funding.

[Robre]

All I ask is make a new thread when it's time to order. Give us a heads up like " we will be taking orders in 2 weeks" it gives some people that don't have liquidity time to get some funds together and not miss the boat so to speak.

Regards,

[digitalindustry]

There do exist FPGA's suitable for the job. Scrypt's main issue that it is incredibly memory intensive, where SHA256 is highly processor based and uses little memory. FPGA rigs would vastly outperform GPUs and cost much less to operate long term. GPUs work because they are designed for the memory intensity of graphics processing and delivery, which a regular processors fast cache memory is also applicable, FPGAs can follow the same path but just be much faster to hash and power efficient. Up front cost for these benefits however, is higher.

I personally spent some time looking into the Salsa function and - $/# ratio as related to high speed transfer needed on RAM specifications:



And in the end i think the only way you will end up selling devices is on the Power Cost Ratio over Time equation - and Market Hype.

Don't take that as negative from me , (and for anyone reading this) ; this will probably just mean that a marketable device will be sourced from a mockup design, then built on order, for profit.

this is a net benefit, as it means your cost/margin as producer becomes prohibitive (if the market becomes adverse) therefore the proclivity to "design and mine" as with ASICS is lessened greatly , becasue your Net Risk is about as great as the general user.

Scrypt FPGA is a market risk but net power consumption benefit - and a net Benefit to users.  but they will cost a lot # wise , and i'll be interested to see what the market [Expects] as against the [#$ Reality.] upfront cost.
 

[digitalindustry]

The problem is that the on-device block RAM is insanely slow compared to GPU ram (about 10 times slower for most FPGAs).  The per slice block RAM for most FPGAs is also less than 128 KB (more like 8 KB in typical cases).

Well, I'm not as familiar with GPU, but I doubt it is 10 times faster.  And I believe you have been misinformed regarding the capacity as well.

The Spartan-6 LX 150 used on many of the boards already built has 4.9 million bits of memory.  The memory in -3 speed grade part can run at up to 320MHz
Newer but similar priced Artix-7 have 13.4 million bits, with up to 509MHz in -3 grade parts.

As it relates to scrypt and it's 128KB scratchpad, the core loop accesses memory sequentially in 1024-bit widths.  Within an FPGA, you can have access to all 1024 bits in a single clock.  While you may not be able to achieve that performance point due to other issues,  1024 bits @ 320/500MHz is nothing to sneeze at.

Total block ram on the whole chip for a spartan6 lx 150 (most expensive chip) is 4824 Kb.  http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/fpga/spartan-6/lx.htm

Memory bandwidth for the block RAM is about 30-60 gb/s (your numbers above) while GPU internal bus is usually around 250 gb/s on higher end cards.

7990 - http://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-hd-7990-malta-performance-benchmarks-leaked-crushes-geforce-gtx-690/

576.0 GB/s bandwidth.

its a high end card , but that's a high end FPGA - and can the FPGA compete with ATI productive to Scale power?

not saying it can't be done just saying [Watts and Space] - is the net benefit i see.

[Operatr]

The problem is that the on-device block RAM is insanely slow compared to GPU ram (about 10 times slower for most FPGAs).  The per slice block RAM for most FPGAs is also less than 128 KB (more like 8 KB in typical cases).

Well, I'm not as familiar with GPU, but I doubt it is 10 times faster.  And I believe you have been misinformed regarding the capacity as well.

The Spartan-6 LX 150 used on many of the boards already built has 4.9 million bits of memory.  The memory in -3 speed grade part can run at up to 320MHz
Newer but similar priced Artix-7 have 13.4 million bits, with up to 509MHz in -3 grade parts.

As it relates to scrypt and it's 128KB scratchpad, the core loop accesses memory sequentially in 1024-bit widths.  Within an FPGA, you can have access to all 1024 bits in a single clock.  While you may not be able to achieve that performance point due to other issues,  1024 bits @ 320/500MHz is nothing to sneeze at.

Total block ram on the whole chip for a spartan6 lx 150 (most expensive chip) is 4824 Kb.  http://www.xilinx.com/products/silicon-devices/fpga/spartan-6/lx.htm

Memory bandwidth for the block RAM is about 30-60 gb/s (your numbers above) while GPU internal bus is usually around 250 gb/s on higher end cards.

7990 - http://wccftech.com/amd-radeon-hd-7990-malta-performance-benchmarks-leaked-crushes-geforce-gtx-690/

576.0 GB/s bandwidth.

its a high end card , but that's a high end FPGA - and can the FPGA compete with ATI productive to Scale power?

not saying it can't be done just saying [Watts and Space] - is the net benefit i see.

I hope we can say more about expected performance soon, though two of the primary benefits are certainly much lower operating costs and are way easier to scale up.

[anderl]

again the benefit is for those who pay around $.26 a kW and ti is cost prohibitive to run GPU farms.  It is for those who have low capacity, apartments, renting, or do not have access to high capacity power.  I'm grateful in that I'm not limited by those constraints but I welcome it for those who would like to participate but cannot.