So the issue is not time sequence, but the fact that it is hard to know if the weaker chain put the data in there as part of a consensus or as part of an attack?

If that is the issue, I am confused why we care so much about it? The metadata in the altcoin chain refers to the BTC data, so why does it matter who put it there? It either matches the BTC data or it doesnt. If it matches, it creates a verifiable time sequence. If it doesnt match, then it would be ignored. Could you make a simple example that shows how an attacker can bypass the BTC "clock" and double spend?

I dont think using bitcoin as the reference clock violates the CAP theorem as it defines the bitcoin data as definitive source of data, so Consistency is achieved, along with availability. [I dont want to get into whether bitcoin itself has done this or that with byzantine whatchamacallits]

Maybe to solve the Partition part, the metadata for the altcoin metadata needs to get back into the BTC chain. We are talking about a slow process, but even if it takes a day for all the back and forth, it seems that it isnt impossible. I just dont understand what exactly is needed.

Maybe it is like spontaneous creation of life from inert chemicals which is (nearly) impossible [please it is just an example, dont want to get into any creation/evolution debate either!], but once it is there, it is hard to stop it from replication. And kind of hard to deny that it exists. Since we now have bitcoin, maybe building on it allows to achieve the desired result (better altcoin security) without any violation of proven theorems by changing the problem.

James

P.S. CAP seems to vary from principle, conjecture, to theorem based on exact and precise definitions, I dont know if bitcoin is the exactly same behavior as in the proven CAP theorem, or if a bitcoin + extra is unable to change it to be beyond the confines of what is proven. I dont like to fight against math proofs, but if there is any level of abstraction in the proof then it is usually possible to "work around" it by transforming the problem to a different problem that isnt proven impossible. Since I am not trying to disprove the CAP theorem, but rather create a cross chain security mechanism that isnt covered by the CAP theorem proper

There is no way to prove that the consensus of the weaker block chain placed those meta-data records in the stronger block chain. There is some meta-data, but it is meaningless, because consensus is the entire challenge of decentralized protocols that require consensus.

Off topic note that per the CAP theorem, Bitcoin forsakes Partition tolerance in order to achieve Consistency and Availability of consensus. You can think of the other block chain as being another partition. We've been discussing these abstract theoretical issues over in the Altcoin Discussion forum in threads such as The Ethereum Paradox, DECENTRALIZED crypto currency (including Bitcoin) is a delusion (any solutions?), and Satoshi didn't solve the Byzantine generals problem. Also include some discussions between monsterer, smooth, and myself in my vaporcoin's thread. So I have the advantage of a few months of discussions about these abstract topics.

Ethereum could hire me to solve their problem perhaps. I wouldn't charge $18 million.  

He's a doddery old man

Scripting opens a Pandora's box that destroys the normal security model for block chains. This is more damning than the problem of needing to centralize verification of scripts, because afaics it is entirely insoluble (unless you centralize authorization of which scripts are allowed to run).

The point about checkpoints is that when your protocol depends upon them for security purposes, you might as well just throw the whole thing in the bin and use a 100% centralised service, which will be exactly as secure and a lot faster, cheaper and easier to use.

so with a 51% + selfish mining attack you would be able to unwind all hist tx in PoS? (with minor costs)

That seems reasonable since checkpoints are required in PoS due to people selling their stake and then doing a long-range attack with stake they no longer own based on reorganization of historical transactions that create stake. Anyone who is buying NXT should hopefully understand the tradeoffs of a PoS system (centralized governance, advantage of less electrical consumption, my arguments against PoS in my prior post, etc).

NXT PoS limits any reorgs to 720 blocks, so for NXT if the timeout is set above 720 blocks, then it will be beyond the reach of any attack.

Mormons may also have some immunity the detrimental effect IQ on of fertility. In the general population increasing income (highly correlated with IQ) is associated with both declining fertility and declining religious commitment. In Mormons the reverse is true. Mormon fertility is positively correlated with income and Mormons with higher levels of formal education tend to be more religiously committed.

On multiple religious measures Mormons stand out for having exceptionally high levels of religious commitment. More than nine-in-ten Mormons report a belief in God and that the Bible is the word of God. Mormons are also very observant in their religious practices with more than eight-in-ten praying daily. Mormons strongly support a strict interpretation of their faith and the preservation of traditional beliefs and practices.

Are these demographic differences actually due to the Mormon religion? How can we be confident these are not just population level differences that happen to correlate with religion? To better answer that lets examine the Jews.

I didn't intend to post in this thread again, but seems I remember Monero would soon add multi-sig, and I wanted to make you aware of a potential 51% attack hole enabled by multi-sig:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1364951.msg14002317#msg14002317

Thank you. I'm really homing in on gall bladder disease. The pain is focused right there about 5 cm from the middle at the lowest right rib, which is precisely where the gall bladder is located. And the ultrasound did find sludge there. And this correlates with the peptic ulcer hospitalization in 2012 wherein the doctor said my swelled abdomen was due to the gall bladder tearing from acid leaking onto it.

Also note that as soon as I started taking 12 herbal tea 2 days ago, I've been experiencing swollen lymph nodes in my throat.

All I wanted to do was sleep the past 36 hours or so. Did run 2kms this morning, lift a bit of barbell, and ran 4 x 100m sprints, but I feel only moderately good. My legs feel sort of weak. Hoping to do some coding now before it gets too hot to work even with the ceiling fan (yeah maybe a cooler climate would help).

I can work but only in 2 - 3 hour intervals, and I can't hold it in my head between sessions thus I am not able to sustain any momentum. The problem is the energy I need for constant brain activity is being siphoned off apparently. I am can sustain brain concentration for short intervals, then I run out of gas.

Next step will be to try to test for candida to rule that out, and I guess to get a CT scan of the organs in the abdomen to get a higher resolution image. But I am expecting they will find nothing, so I am not that motivated to spend $500 and lose the time, but I imagine I will get around to it maybe next week I will have a day where I am inspired to do it.

I reasonably confident there is nothing I can do about this illness that I am not already doing, other than go looking inside with an endoscope. I suppose it is possible that a change of venue and food habits might change something but I am doubting that. I am tempted to get out of Davao even and take a trip to Subic. Perhaps in May, because my gf goes to her hometown then for the election. I don't want to bring her to Subic, because it is bar hopping place if you know what I mean and don't want her to be influenced by that. I would want to bring her abroad though. I don't know any other place in the Philippines to go where they have food prepared for foreigners.

Btw, even I have been coming to and living in the Philippines perhaps half of my years on earth, I am still shocked how rampant the corruption is here. It is built into the culture that the people use each other. I guess it comes from the Spanish occupation and perhaps even before that the tribes probably captured each other for slavery. For example, the brother of my ex holds a tourist visa to go Brunei (will look around for a job), but he doesn't want to fly directly from Manila to Brunei, because the immigration officials are likely to deny his exit if he doesn't bribe them. Whereas, if he flies from Manila to Hong Kong they may not suspect he is seeking employment abroad and thus may not extort him.

Btw, this will probably get deleted by the mod, but FWIW:

"Started about 4 days ago drinking this multiple herb tea that tastes similar to Robitussin cough syrup. It is apparently produced by boiling the leaves of the various herbal plants and trees. Yesterday I have my first totally normal health day of 2016, wherein I was able to program, exercise, and sleep normally. And I feel the same today.

It is such a different feeling to be able to think clearly and concentrate. I can't really describe the feeling of the illness, but it is very debilitating. I feel good again today! Going to code something today for sure that I can actually see working with user interface before I sleep!"


Edit: And note the herbal tea initially made me feel worse. It gave me swollen lymph nodes in my throat and caused the peripheral neuropathy to worsen. I think that is a very important data point to consider.

Being anonymous is cool but it should be based on the Ethereum platform instead of bitcoin. Bitcoins code is amazing but the facts are the facts, Ethereums code is better.

Then we could start getting anonymous Ethereum clones.

OK, so we are in agreement on most everything.

I want to better understand the above as it seems the main issue to prevent much stronger security. I apologize if I am asking kindergarten level questions on this, but I dont understand the external reference point impossibility. Please bear with me.

I like concrete examples:

At noon, BTC block noon_txid appears. This is available to the entire bitcoin p2p network. At first it is a bit vulnerable to a reorg due to any pair of linked blocks would override it. After the next block, it would take 3 blocks to overtake, etc. So after 2 hours, we are past the timestamp variance and also have 10+ blocks protected by zillions of hashes.

ALL the altcoin chains can refer to this noon_txid. Let us call it noon_txid_inalt. I am pretty sure this is possible to do. And I am pretty sure that the presence of noon_txid_inalt proves that it came AFTER noon_txid. Please let us ignore odds of sha256 collisions.

In my previous post, I said bi-directional. So the BTC blockchain now gets the noon_txid_inalt and puts that into its blockchain (a bit past 2PM). call this the noon_altconfirm txid.

I claim that we now know that noon_txid happened before noon_txid_inalt which happened before noon_altconfirm txid. It looks like I can segregate blockchain events on different blockchains into definite categories of time ordering of "before" and "after"

What part of the above is insufficient to satisfy the requirements for the external reference?

I assume you mean writing some meta-data into the stronger block chain, that the weaker block chain could refer to as evidence. The hindrance is that decentralized block chains have no external reference point. There is no way to enforce that a particular block in one chain came before a block (nor within some # of blocks after a block) on another chain. Block chains are self-referential, and that is precisely why we need CLTV to implement decentralized exchange.