Utility can not be determined until post release. Which is why I am against an IPO. For this IPO to work, I would need this proof:
1. There will be is utility.
2. The coin will be uncommon enough and have the proper mining difficulty to warrant the asking price of 0.0001 BTC.
3. The Turing complete contracts are secure from viruses, malware, adware, wallet steelers, keyloggers, and any other malicious code.
4. A list of all founders that will be receiving a large portion of the currency.
5. The system is safe from both botnets and ASICs. This is crucial because investors will be completely screwed over should one of these be applied.
I much prefer the IPO model to PoW mining, but the ROI, affected by #2, has to be sufficient to justify the risks 1, 3, 4, and 5 mentioned above. I would call this a seed round or pre-sale, not IPO. Seed capital has a much higher risk and potential ROI than IPO capital. |
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It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price). NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361286.0 . That poll is pretty ridiculous. Have you downloaded some of these alt-coin wallets and noticed that they all look the same? They are all copies of BTC. The alt-coins exist to give GPU miners something to kick around. I made an investment in NXT because it was new code and was written to be highly extensible. Certainly, the NXT pre-launch was completely screwed up, and the Jan. 3 launch was overshadowed by DDoS attacks and a hack on DGEX. Turning 21 BTCs into 38000 BTCs in 6 weeks is bound to upset a few people. It's not mineable so it alienates many in this community anyway. But, the uniqueness and the feature set of NXT justify the market cap. Here's a pro tip. Use your GPU hardware to mine a profitable Scrypt coin while you can, sell the coin, and buy the PoS coins, e.g. PPC, NXT, YAC, DEM, and future PoS coins. Private ASIC developers, driven by greed, will come to control all PoW coins, even Ether, and will ultimately destroy their utility. I favor PoS next gen coins as well, like DAC concept. I'd rather Ethereum was pure PoS, but really like the rest of the project. I liked the NXT a lot and it was on my hotlist since it had code in beta, even though the docs were sketchy and with the cloak and dagger drama going on. My big beef is how the pre-sale was handled (having the door slammed my face-hard to be objective), and their continued refusal to acknowledge the real reason for ending the sale without advance notice. Regardless of how good the tech is, the character of the NXT founders is questionable. Yeah, I've not heard a believable straight answer about the pre-sale debacle. I got in much later than pre-sale (mid-December), but my investment is still currently in the black. I think that over time, the rocky start will be a side note in history, and the success of the NXT platform will be driven by its feature set, small environmental footprint, and ease of use (currently a nightmare for a pedestrian to install and use, but that is fixable). I'm going to mine Ethereum. I might even go VPS and mine the shit out of Ethereum in the beginning. But, after the recent bout of scam coins (e.g. VisaCoin and Neon), I'm out on giving money to strangers. The BTC-based IPO hopefuls need to know that the capital well here has been poisoned. They need to get more creative about how they want to launch. It's too bad scam projects poison the well for the good ones. I look carefully at the proposal, the commentary on it, the people involved, and alpha or beta releases. Ethereum has a very good pedigree from the people involved and a solid proposal. From what I've heard, the investment round will be very well done, but still don't know the details. I've been fortunate to miss out on the true scam coins, and don't even really consider NXT to be in the same class as most of the scammy alt coins - more like what you say above. |
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How much are you investing? It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?
Haven't decided. Still need to see details. As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it.Haha, I like that. Do you have investment in Nxt? I will give you some if you want to create an account and PM me. That way you can at least see why the coin doesn't belong on the scam list. Thanks for offer, will let you know when I have the client installed. |
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It involves more than scarcity. There is also utility - what the coin can do, and velocity - how much it is used. These factors combine to to determine value in terms of purchasing power. It is tricky, though, to balance a premine presale against PoW mining. I'd rather see the PoW mining dropped and just use PoS.
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It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price). NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361286.0 . That poll is pretty ridiculous. Have you downloaded some of these alt-coin wallets and noticed that they all look the same? They are all copies of BTC. The alt-coins exist to give GPU miners something to kick around. I made an investment in NXT because it was new code and was written to be highly extensible. Certainly, the NXT pre-launch was completely screwed up, and the Jan. 3 launch was overshadowed by DDoS attacks and a hack on DGEX. Turning 21 BTCs into 38000 BTCs in 6 weeks is bound to upset a few people. It's not mineable so it alienates many in this community anyway. But, the uniqueness and the feature set of NXT justify the market cap. Here's a pro tip. Use your GPU hardware to mine a profitable Scrypt coin while you can, sell the coin, and buy the PoS coins, e.g. PPC, NXT, YAC, DEM, and future PoS coins. Private ASIC developers, driven by greed, will come to control all PoW coins, even Ether, and will ultimately destroy their utility. I favor PoS next gen coins as well, like DAC concept. I'd rather Ethereum was pure PoS, but really like the rest of the project. I liked the NXT a lot and it was on my hotlist since it had code in beta, even though the docs were sketchy and with the cloak and dagger drama going on. My big beef is how the pre-sale was handled (having the door slammed my face-hard to be objective), and their continued refusal to acknowledge the real reason for ending the sale without advance notice. Regardless of how good the tech is, the character of the NXT founders is questionable. |
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How much are you investing? It seems to me that the more people invest, the worse off for everyone in terms of ROI, am I correct?
Haven't decided. Still need to see details. As far as investment levels and dilution, there is a sweet spot up to which additional investment reduces risk and accelerates product to market and allowing more features to be created in parallel, yielding the same ROI in a given time frame. Beyond this point, the start-up is overcapitalized and diluted, reducing ROI, since there is more investment than the organization can handle. It would be like trying to make a baby in 1 month by putting 9 women on it. |
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(also NXT ipo was too short and invisible and maybe was even closed early, that's why price shot up afterwards. Had they waited long enough with high exposure to and broad discussion by the public, price would've been "exactly right" after ipo)
Do you mean it could/should have also been 0.0001 NXT/BTC? The NXT launch wasn't invisible, not sure why people think that. Also, the goal of Nxt launch wasn't too have some Bitcoin Conference mass marketing IPO extravaganza. It was to get a working POS system launched and let the community take over. Yet many people have misconceptions about it being a scam coin. To me, a scam coin is one that draws hundreds/thousands of btc investment in a pre-sale and then caters to ASIC miners. It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price). NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361286.0 . "They" you are referring to were people who took a risk to donate to an unknown developer's project, regular forum members like you and me, the founder didn't sell a thing, in fact, he has only given away millions of Nxt to developers. The markup you are talking about is still more than 100x cheaper than Ethereum IPO price. I bought 1M nxt for 1BTC. Your reference to the scamcoin poll makes you look ignorant, you and I both know those are envy polls. Where is Ethereum on that list? BCNext ended the Nxt IPO early because he didn't want to collect hundreds of BTC. You're partially correct - BCNext (and/or come-from-beyond) didn't want to collect more BTC, maybe even hundreds of BTC, which would reduce their percentages of the distribution. If they had just announced the early close because they collected enough BTC, they probably would not have collected much over 5 or 10 more BTC since it was a high risk investment and not have caused animosity among those interested but not yet invested. People tend to focus on price per share in a pre-sale, but what they should really look at is the price for a given percentage of the total pre-sale. If the shares are PoW mined, then the net rate of issuance of new shares is also a factor. |
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(also NXT ipo was too short and invisible and maybe was even closed early, that's why price shot up afterwards. Had they waited long enough with high exposure to and broad discussion by the public, price would've been "exactly right" after ipo)
Do you mean it could/should have also been 0.0001 NXT/BTC? The NXT launch wasn't invisible, not sure why people think that. Also, the goal of Nxt launch wasn't too have some Bitcoin Conference mass marketing IPO extravaganza. It was to get a working POS system launched and let the community take over. Yet many people have misconceptions about it being a scam coin. To me, a scam coin is one that draws hundreds/thousands of btc investment in a pre-sale and then caters to ASIC miners. It wasn't invisible, but it was cut short with no advance notice to prevent further dilution of existing investment. A week later, they started selling NXT at a 4762% markup (yes, that's over 47X original purchase price). NXT is number 2 on the scamcoin poll, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=361286.0 . |
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is this a coin wich we can mine (just like any other altcoin)
Also when can we start mining it?
or is this a coin wich we buy ( premined) ?
and when can we start buying?
Both, pre-sale before mining, don't know schedule. |
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if there is no mining it is a scheme, pure and simple. No amount of words or platitude can remove the reality that ALL positions in the matrix were filled at the beginning, selling the seats is meaningless, pre notification is meaningless. If you don't mine new coins at launch, it is a scam.
Hi Johnny, looks like your text got mixed up with my quote, here it is split out. |
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It's kind of funny that some of the coins that got rated the highest as most likely to grow in 2014 similarly got rated highest as most likely to be shit or a scam.
I voted for NXT coins though, because the fine print on its exchange reads something like "All bitcoins placed into the exchange belong to the exchange.", and the owner of the exchange, and the main NXT website, also owns another domain with the word "Ponzi" in it for some reason.
It's an interesting concept but it needs to be steered clear of at all costs with the people running it.
NXT got my vote as well. They closed their investment 6 weeks early without advance notice to avoid dilution of existing investment, so the early investors could own a much larger stake, and then start selling a week later at a 4762% markup. I see they are #2 and should be #1 on the list. Aye, we know that u r upset, u already posted this in another thread. Yes, there would always be angry people, but NXT would be able to make the claim that everyone who knew about it and made the stated deadline was able to invest. Do you deny that the pre-sale was closed early without advance notice to prevent dilution of existing investment? I checked all BCNexts's posts and there had never been any time limit or number of stakeholders According to Come-from-Beyond there was a "change in plans" from the planned January 3rd launch date. The deadline for investment was ambiguous, which was what I was asking clarification of, though others posting in the thread also took the 3rd as the deadline for investment. From https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=303898.480 : Can we still join in between now and January 3? I haven't really seen any clear definition of a deadline.
I'm waiting for the answer. BCNext reads this thread. Some changes in the plan: 1. Fundraising is over. That last 1 BTC, sent after the 2nd marking transaction, will be accepted but no more deposits should be made. 2. Nxt will be launched earlier than on the 3rd of January, right after the final test. 3. New Nxt users r supposed to be attracted by selling NXT and distributing via Nxt Faucet. 4. Messaging feature will be released later to avoid situation when somebody attempts to bloat the blockchain making it too huge for newcomers. BTW we need one more bootstrapping server, coz 2 servers is not enough.So, if I understand this correctly: 1) the main dev (BCNext) no longer posts directly to this thread but you purport to communicate with him and speak for him about the project, something we can't confirm, 2) the deadline for contributing BTC to acquire Nxt, which was originally described as being open until the genesis block was approved by the community sometimes at least a month from now, is now suddenly declared over with no advance warning; and 3) the BTC that were already sent to acquire Nxt, which the main dev (BCNext) promised earlier in this thread not to touch until the genesis block was generated, have now been moved. Again, do you deny that the pre-sale was closed early without advance notice to prevent dilution of existing investment, or if you prefer, do you deny that the pre-sale was closed early without advance notice to prevent dilution of existing investment? |
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It's kind of funny that some of the coins that got rated the highest as most likely to grow in 2014 similarly got rated highest as most likely to be shit or a scam.
I voted for NXT coins though, because the fine print on its exchange reads something like "All bitcoins placed into the exchange belong to the exchange.", and the owner of the exchange, and the main NXT website, also owns another domain with the word "Ponzi" in it for some reason.
It's an interesting concept but it needs to be steered clear of at all costs with the people running it.
NXT got my vote as well. They closed their investment 6 weeks early without advance notice to avoid dilution of existing investment, so the early investors could own a much larger stake, and then start selling a week later at a 4762% markup. I see they are #2 and should be #1 on the list. Aye, we know that u r upset, u already posted this in another thread. Yes, there would always be angry people, but NXT would be able to make the claim that everyone who knew about it and made the stated deadline was able to invest. Do you deny that the pre-sale was closed early without advance notice to prevent dilution of existing investment? |
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It's kind of funny that some of the coins that got rated the highest as most likely to grow in 2014 similarly got rated highest as most likely to be shit or a scam.
I voted for NXT coins though, because the fine print on its exchange reads something like "All bitcoins placed into the exchange belong to the exchange.", and the owner of the exchange, and the main NXT website, also owns another domain with the word "Ponzi" in it for some reason.
It's an interesting concept but it needs to be steered clear of at all costs with the people running it.
NXT got my vote as well. They closed their investment 6 weeks early without advance notice to avoid dilution of existing investment, so the early investors could own a much larger stake, and then start selling a week later at a 4762% markup. I see they are #2 and should be #1 on the list. |
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I'll be heavily investing in ETH, hadn't really thought of mining 'til now. Any thoughts on an optimal rig for ETH? Your investment analysis is very informative, by the way.
VPSes with a lot of memory, or GPUs with a LOT of memory (hundreds of GB). Come to think of it, amazon EC2 instances may be almost ideal (good amount of CPU power, plenty of RAM, etc) So it sounds like a memory coin. Wonder if memory bandwidth is a factor or just memory quantity. Protoshares is throttled by bandwidth beyond 4 or 8 gb. |
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...Zerocoin in 2014 may just be a few of the well anticipicated
projects of the coming year.. looked for more info on zerocoin, didn't know it was going to its own blockchain - definitely better. I was looking around for mining info, see if it is worth doing, i.e. cpu mining. |
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I just had another thought (or way to look at my eth investment decision personally): If my assumption (argued 3 posts above) that IPO price will be "exactly right" holds, it doesn't matter from my individual perspective wether I invest in the IPO phase or buy ETH on the market right after it ends. The only difference this makes is where my invested BTC go. In the former case they go to the ethereum development fund, in the latter they go to a genesis investor. So if some people here are envious toward the founders getting control over too much money, they can just buy ETH on the market after the ipo instead of investing during the ipo phase. I'm guessing I'll do a little bit of everything regarding investing into ethereum: - invest in ipo phase
- buy on market after ipo phase
- mine
side-note: This is not your average alt-coin and everything I looked at and thought about regarding ethereum so far is well thought-through. This thing is filled with innovation and I think it can provide an exceedingly fertile ground for further innovation and positive change in our world. I'll be heavily investing in ETH, hadn't really thought of mining 'til now. Any thoughts on an optimal rig for ETH? Your investment analysis is very informative, by the way. |
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So, as a novice hobbyist, I am still very interested in this coin (?), so i'll throw this out there. In business you're often asked to prepare and give someone the "elevator pitch", which might be about 30 seconds worth of bullet points. So someone give this to me, what is the "elevator pitch" for this coin?
Is it a bitcoin killer? What does it do that other coins don't (is it the notion that you can leverage mining power into real-world applications/computations?)
It's hard to give an elevator pitch on a technology that is a step abstracted from Bitcoin when people don't properly understand Bitcoin in the first place... but I'll try for those interested in investing but not in reading the research material (which seems to be the de-facto status of forum trolls). Imagine the underlying technological accomplishments of Bitcoin (distributed consensus) were abstracted away such that ANY mathematical expression could be expressed & evaluated by the network. In addition to a more complete scripting language, these scripts/programs/bots/entities would live in a "contract" and have access to memory locations and ability to interact with other transactions themselves. What you end up with is a way to design nearly any legal/financial agreement which can interact with other contracts and accomplish hugely complex and automated tasks secured by the network at large. What you can accomplish with the contracts/memory construct is essentially only limited by your imagination and funds available (since contracts require fee inputs). What are some examples of what these contracts could do? - Sub-currencies
- Financial derivatives
- Identity and Reputation Systems
- Decentralized Autonomous Organizations
- Savings wallets
- Crop insurance
- decentrally managed data feed
- Smart multisignature escrow
- Peer-to-peer gambling
- on-chain stock market
- on-chain decentralized marketplace
- Decentralized Dropbox
I highly recommend everyone read the white paper several times if they're interested in this project, whether as investors or technologists (or both!) Thanks! This is an excellent, concise, and accurate summary of the project. |
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It's been my experience that when people try to ignore or dodge around an issue, and accuse the person questioning them of trolling, that it's because it's the truth.
Sorry to other people reading this discussion as it's tangential to Etherium, but the opportunity arose to confront the person responsible.
It does highlight the importance of sticking with a plan in a funding round once it is announced. NXT has made an enemy where it didn't need to have one, and I will continue to discourage people from investing in it as I feel the situation shows a lack of integrity of the people managing the project. All they had to do was say, "we are closing investment, so if you want to invest you need to do so within 4 hours" (or some reasonable time frame). All they have to do at this point is admit to the real reason they closed investment early.
+1. While the reasons to NXT genesis investors (who made on paper >1000 BTC out of investments of <1BTC) being so zealous are understandable, IMHO it still hurts the NXT in the long run. While it's an interesting technology, chances it will have a hard time competing against MSC, BTS, Ethereum (and other upcoming other 2nd gen platforms) with a much larger initial adoption base and much fairer distribution model, bringing similar features and capabilities into the play. How is the pre-sale of a POW mined currency price at more than double current Nxt market price a fair distribution model? I wasn't a stakeholder in Nxt, but I bought right after launch when people were selling 1Mil Nxt for 1BTC. I thought to myself, "I could theoretically buy 1% of this currency, that will ever exist, for 10 BTC" to me that was a great risk but also a great deal. I've been trading BTC long enough to remember having about 15k BTC in my wallet in the early days, and to be honest, Nxt is the first alt coin I've ever owned, including LTC, which I always thought was a joke. The founder of Nxt only made 21BTC (1 of which was his) on the launch, sure the stakeholders were limited (73 total), but they were all like you and me, with zero affiliation with BCNext or Nxt. To me, Ethereal is a slave of ASIC Miners, with a ridiculously high IPO price and no interest earned like eMu, so who is being fair?
Funny, I can't seem to get anyone to admit that investment was ended ended early in NXT or cancelled in eMunie to prevent further dilution of existing investors, though it is obvious that this is the case.
nxt launch was a total mess......and so rushed to be the first 100% PoS to market....although it is potentially a damn good crypto. emunie has not yet launched so it is unfair to make any conclusions. the IPO was only cancelled in reaction to the slander/trolling that went on in the past week which was absolutely vicious and so close to the public offering could have affected it in a very negative way. it is not to exclude that they could still do the IPO, maybe even after a period of open beta test. which would be the most fair way "try before buy "sort of model. at the monent though nothing has been decided....they are just concentrating on development and letting the videos do the talking (and i must say it' looks promising) . about eThereum....not even sure why a PoW needs an IPO...in any case i'm over these "miners" coins...independently from the new hard memory mining method.....eventually they'll be asiced too... PoS coins have proved to be safe and stable without the need for miners...which already are starting to look as a menacing external presence in the bitcoin world. we need coins that run simply from end users devices (self sustained)....and not reliant on external mining infrastructure.....PoS is the only way imo. I'm looking at how the IPO is presented and handled. Is the information on price, quantity, distribution, schedule, capitalization limits, and future dilution clearly presented so an investor can make an informed decision? Does the issuer stick to the terms originally presented? If not, does the issuer give plenty of advanced notice of the planned change and allow investors and potential investors to adapt accordingly? Does the issuer try to give one impression by giving a deadline or capitalization limit while actually making funding close arbitrary and at his discretion with a phrase to the effect "issuer may choose to end the pre-sale early"? eMunie may go on and eventually honor the original commitment to allow all investors to buy at the same price and quantities as beta testers. Fuseleer did say, however that that a pre-sale may offer currency in limited quantities sometime in the future. This is a major departure from previous plans and indicates a desire to limit further dilution of existing investment. This does not support the stated reason of cancelling the pre-sale due to forum trolls. I'm not concerned with the actual price, quantity, duration, proportions awarded to different classes of stakeholders, or eventual total amount in circulation, as to what is fair. This is up to the individual project. Different people have different ideas of what is fair, with about 7 billion different versions of "fair" on the planet altogether. All I ask is that everyone have equal access to the information and the issuer follows through with his plan or gives plenty of notice and reasons for any change. From what I know of Ethereum, this is their intent, and to allow for participation for all types of stakeholders. |
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Very nice chart and calculation. It shows why intuitively I'm not too worried about the theoretical quantity of 2 trillion. It will take a long time to reach and 1.2 trillion is well under the quantity of USD in circulation today.
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I look at the goals of the project as well as the potential ROI. Ethereum is great on both counts. The mining actually performs a useful function in executing the smart contracts. The functionality of the Turing Complete scripting language as a platform for development is a milestone. The funding and distribution plan promises to be a good compromise for different types of stakeholders.
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