How is this related? BFL literally stole this guys money. This has nothing to do with a delayed shipment. And again if you want a refund contact BA directly through their site and they will likely be able to refund you (especially if you complain hard enough) |
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Bought an x-1. Happily waiting for the hardware I agreed to buy. But just as disappointed with the delays as anyone.
That explains your patience. Please excuse me for not having sympathy for those smart enough to fork over several thousand usd worth of irreversible money without even reading the deal they are agreeing to. |
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This is also true but I am just trying to relay the info from BA for those who missed it due to the spam/rage/trolls.
I don't know the exact details on how tapeout was paid for but based on the last comment I would guess they did use at least some of the preorder funds to pay for it. Some clarification on this would be nice as I too remember something about r&d being covered by their own funds.
I still wouldn't be surprised if BA finds that they do have enough cash on hand and decide to give out refunds. Would definitely make a few people happy.
jimmothy, what kind of affiliation do you have with BA? Bought an x-1. Happily waiting for the hardware I agreed to buy. But just as disappointed with the delays as anyone. |
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Looks like the last address is what the guy was talking about. Strange I've never noticed that address and yet it has been pretty constantly adding to the div address. Anyone know the source of these coins? Maybe franchising? I couldn't imagine that is all from cube sales. |
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I'd like to remind everyone that refunds are not completely out of the question.
BA said they would tally up the refund requests and see if they have enough money to give the refunds from the margins. (10million usd already spent on tapeout)
I am pretty sure if you send them a few emails and bitch enough you can get a refund. Worst case you end up having to sell your order to one of the many willing to buy it.
If I remember rightly BA was going to go ahead with tapeout with or without customer cash. So using that as justification is disingenuous. Reality is if people ask for a refund it should be PROVIDED full stop. They are no different than BFL or Avalon if they start playing the we will see when we see game on refunds. That is not how to instill trust and likely will entrench the mindset that it is time to sue them to get refunds if push comes to shove. Given what I know of the people involved I hope they take the 100% refund route if people ask without prefacing it with but tapeout cost millions etc. no company can afford to piss off the community at this juncture especially BA pushing the delay as long as they did. This is also true but I am just trying to relay the info from BA for those who missed it due to the spam/rage/trolls. I don't know the exact details on how tapeout was paid for but based on the last comment I would guess they did use at least some of the preorder funds to pay for it. Some clarification on this would be nice as I too remember something about r&d being covered by their own funds. I still wouldn't be surprised if BA finds that they do have enough cash on hand and decide to give out refunds. Would definitely make a few people happy. |
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I'd like to remind everyone that refunds are not completely out of the question.
BA said they would tally up the refund requests and see if they have enough money to give the refunds from the margins. (10million usd already spent on tapeout)
I am pretty sure if you send them a few emails and bitch enough you can get a refund. Worst case you end up having to sell your order to one of the many willing to buy it.
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Is this another thread to create FUD since nobody took your scam accusations thread seriously?
As I said in the other thread.....you would make a FANTASTIC BFL customer,PLEASE go order a Monarch or two  Please continue Phinn  I would make a fantastic preorder customer because I read/understand the rules before agreeing to them. Seriously what kind of idiot gives their irreversible cash to a company for a product that has not been finished and expects a refund when their "investment" doesn't go according to their calculations. I was a former BFL customer and while dissatisfied with the delays I still made a profit in USD without any butthurt. Better use of your time... attack BFL and help bring them down.
Black Arrow is responsive.
Black Arrow has regrettably delayed shipping.
Black Arrow is not perfect.
I don't see any relevance to getting miners faster with this line of inquiry. They messed up they are trying to fix it chalk this up to another company with a set back nothing more. Our own group would have LOVED to have some Minion chips to play with and are somewhat sad we won't see the chips the end of this month. I don't see where this thread is going? Please STATE CLEARLY what you are driving at here. What is it exactly you are trying to get the community to understand? If there was a FOCUS then I might actually pay attention to what you are doing. As far as I can tell you have posted names of people great most of the people in this community already know who the BA players are.
You are exactly right. The direction this thread is going is to create as much conspiracy theories/FUD as possible. He is not interested in looking at the facts and drawing a conclusion from them. He has already drawn his own conclusion and is attempting to create the evidence to support it. Not sure the motives behind it but I have a feeling he may be paid by BFL to troll. |
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You mean this contract? Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.
Yup, that's the first half. Here's the other half: http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-ruleIn seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:
...
a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund;
And yet some people still think that writing a ToS can override a FEDERAL regulatory body... (this is aimed at MS not BA as I don't think BA is a USA corp). Hint to manufactures the FTC's rules are a little more binding than your ToS. Fun Facts: Number of butthurt people who wanted refunds from BFL for 1+ year delays: 10,000 Number of people who took legal action against BFL for the delays and won: 0 Number of those butthurt people who actually lost money (in terms of USD): 0 I'm sorry that proves the bullshit ToS and wrongfully denied refunds how exactly? It proves that whether or not you think your protected from preorder delays by the the law, in reality you are not. |
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Is this another thread to create FUD since nobody took your scam accusations thread seriously?
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You mean this contract? Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.
Yup, that's the first half. Here's the other half: http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-ruleIn seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:
...
a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund;
And yet some people still think that writing a ToS can override a FEDERAL regulatory body... (this is aimed at MS not BA as I don't think BA is a USA corp). Hint to manufactures the FTC's rules are a little more binding than your ToS. Fun Facts: Number of butthurt people who wanted refunds from BFL for 1+ year delays: 10,000 Number of people who took legal action against BFL for the delays and won: 0 Number of those butthurt people who actually lost money (in terms of USD): 0 Number of times preorders are mentioned in the FTC link provided: 0 |
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The problem is not accounting for delays in calculation. If you think you can preorder an asic then cancel your order when its no longer profitable(you think) then you should NOT be preordering an asic in the first place.
WRONG. A pre-order purchase is a contract. BA made a commitment to deliver on a specified date. If they cannot meet that date, their customers deserve the right to cancel that contract due to BA's failure to deliver. Especially in the US, it is the law. You mean this contract? Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.
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In all seriousness you can't hold BA accountable for not guaranteeing a profit (according to your calculations which are 99% wrong).
You can however hold them accountable to deliver hardware that meets advertised specs. Delays are unfortunate but not uncommon (Historically just about every asic manufacturer has experienced delays).
they can be held accountable for not delivering on time. people made their buying decisions based on the timetable set out. it was as much a factor, if not more, as the price of the unit. Who buys this thing in November/December for batch 1 if they're going to get it in May, or later, but could instead order from Cointerra, who is already shipping, and get their unit in Feb/March? Pretty much no-one is my guess. the fact that others have been late is irrelevant. manufacturers need to keep up their end of the bargain, and that includes on time delivery for a time critical application, or be held accountable for losses suffered as a result of their own failure. There is a huge difference between guaranteeing a shipment date and an estimate. Obviously for any company to maximize orders they would give the most optimistic estimation. The problem is not accounting for delays in calculation. If you think you can preorder an asic then cancel your order when its no longer profitable(you think) then you should NOT be preordering an asic in the first place. |
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Why is everyone pretending they know the difficulty in 2 months? I have checked my crystal ball and it turns out difficulty only increases ~20% per change as opposed to the pessimistic 30% rate which most calculators have adopted. This means everyone will still reach positive roi even with the delays.
In all seriousness you can't hold BA accountable for not guaranteeing a profit (according to your calculations which are 99% wrong).
You can however hold them accountable to deliver hardware that meets advertised specs. Delays are unfortunate but not uncommon (Historically just about every asic manufacturer has experienced delays).
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I love it how only the fudsters who don't have an order with BA demanding refunds/screaming/crying.
This is like the whole bfl fiasco but with only a 2 month delay and no actual customers complaining.
And for those keeping record, the amount of people who successfully took legal action against bfl for delays on their preorder: zero.
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Person preorders hardware using irreversible payment methods from company clearly stating no refunds and shipment dates are approximate Person wants refund of irreversible payment method because tapeout was delayed a month and a half #logic sadly i will be seeking a refund to because i now dont believe my x1s will roi due this mayor delay and mtgox going down
Evidence this guy will say anything to create a bit of fud. Pretty sure he is paid by BFL to troll.. |
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So posts keep getting deleted, that's great. You promised miners shipping in two weeks, then a week ago you tell all your customers that you decided your machines would be using too much power so you just went ahead with plans to make a more advanced machine months from now. How long have you known that this was the case? Obviously you didn't have anything close to ready a month ago, or two months ago. Now you are being shady with refunds, both here and on your own forums. When are you going to offer full refunds to customers you defrauded?
I found this odd too, I recall seeing 120 pages of this thread. Somehow it is now 114 pages, those 6 pages could have contained important information necessary for customer refunding (assuming they are even considering such a request). I submitted my ticket to Black Arrow's main site 2 days ago and haven't heard back on my request for a refund. No. literally all 5 or so pages were from one user spamming nonsense/fud/conspiracy theories. |
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OleOle you can stop wasting your time. You're not even a good fudster.
Also good job BA for deleting literally pages of spam
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As to how quickly wafers can be produced, diced, and packaged, it is clear that the fab industry is set to handle these types of volumes. Let's break down the numbers assuming 10K wafers over a 12 month period into end mining hardware that will be produced (not by AM, but by 3rd party chip buyers). Assume a hypothetical gen3 miner based on the chip count of AM's Cube (96 chips). 96 gen3 chips will give us a 1.23 TH/s miner that consumes about 500 watts (note those specs are better than any shipping or announced miner despite gen3 using a much larger node size!). Some calcs:
Chips per Wafer: 3,125
Gen3 Miners (96 chips) per Wafer: 32.54
Assuming 10k wafer over 1 year, we get 27.4 wafers / day:
85,616 Chips per Day
891 Gen3 Miners per Day
I forgot about Avalon. Let's look at them. From the Avalon news post dated 14 October 2013: "Internally, Avalon has been busy running tests on our A3255 prototype (with 96 chips running at 1.6Ghs) for several days and will continue testing the hardware as well as overclocking and system performance. We will release additional information as it becomes available on the unofficial Avalon wiki page." From the Avalon news post dated 15 January 2014: "Until today, we have shipped 6PHash Avalon chips all over the world. Almost 85% was from the Avalon2 A3255 chip. We will keep trying to make the best, creative, open bitcoin auditing solution for you." From the datasheet: "1G Hash Rate guaranteed when core voltage is 0.9V overclocking available." This gives us the following data for the production of Avalon Gen 2: Time frame = 14 October 2013 to 15 January 2014 Hash Rate: 5.1 Ph/s 5.1 million chips over 107 days 47,663 chips per day Basically confirming that its not impossible/unrealistic to produce 85k chips per day. |
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This thread... you guys are so masochistically obsessive.
Do really need to fill the internet with hot air, recycled over and over?
Say something new, do something new, or stop talking please.
What exactly was the point of this thread? |
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