Black Arrow 28nm 100Ghash Bitcoin ASIC from $0.49/GH/s

[Syke]

You mean this contract?

Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.

Yup, that's the first half. Here's the other half:

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:
...
    a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund;

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[Flying Hellfish]

You mean this contract?

Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.

Yup, that's the first half. Here's the other half:

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:
...
    a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund;

And yet some people still think that writing a ToS can override a FEDERAL regulatory body... (this is aimed at MS not BA as I don't think BA is a USA corp).

Hint to manufactures the FTC's rules are a little more binding than your ToS.

Edit:  Basically what their ToS says it they can't give a definitive delivery date.  Are you curious what the FTC requires a company to do if they are asking for a indefinite delivery date?

•a statement that, if the customer agrees to the indefinite delay, the customer may cancel the order any time until you ship.
http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

Any American company refusing refunds requests at this point is going against the FTC.

[jimmothy]

You mean this contract?

Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.

Yup, that's the first half. Here's the other half:

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:
...
    a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund;

And yet some people still think that writing a ToS can override a FEDERAL regulatory body... (this is aimed at MS not BA as I don't think BA is a USA corp).

Hint to manufactures the FTC's rules are a little more binding than your ToS.

Fun Facts:

Number of butthurt people who wanted refunds from BFL for 1+ year delays: 10,000

Number of people who took legal action against BFL for the delays and won: 0

Number of those butthurt people who actually lost money (in terms of USD): 0

Number of times preorders are mentioned in the FTC link provided: 0

[Flying Hellfish]

You mean this contract?

Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.

Yup, that's the first half. Here's the other half:

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:
...
    a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund;

And yet some people still think that writing a ToS can override a FEDERAL regulatory body... (this is aimed at MS not BA as I don't think BA is a USA corp).

Hint to manufactures the FTC's rules are a little more binding than your ToS.

Fun Facts:

Number of butthurt people who wanted refunds from BFL for 1+ year delays: 10,000

Number of people who took legal action against BFL for the delays and won: 0

Number of those butthurt people who actually lost money (in terms of USD): 0

I'm sorry that proves the bullshit ToS and wrongfully denied refunds how exactly?

[jimmothy]

You mean this contract?

Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.

Yup, that's the first half. Here's the other half:

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

In seeking your customer’s consent to delay, the first delay notice you provide to the customer (the "delay option" notice) must include:
...
    a statement that, if the customer chooses not to wait, the customer can cancel the order and obtain a full and prompt refund;

And yet some people still think that writing a ToS can override a FEDERAL regulatory body... (this is aimed at MS not BA as I don't think BA is a USA corp).

Hint to manufactures the FTC's rules are a little more binding than your ToS.

Fun Facts:

Number of butthurt people who wanted refunds from BFL for 1+ year delays: 10,000

Number of people who took legal action against BFL for the delays and won: 0

Number of those butthurt people who actually lost money (in terms of USD): 0

I'm sorry that proves the bullshit ToS and wrongfully denied refunds how exactly?

It proves that whether or not you think your protected from preorder delays by the the law, in reality you are not.

[Syke]

Number of people who took legal action against BFL for the delays and won: 0

Wrong again.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1u4v0o/i_sued_bfl_in_kansas_jurisdiction_and_won/

I sued BFL and won.

My case is a matter of public record, case 13LA09619

[Kaega]

Number of people who took legal action against BFL for the delays and won: 0

Wrong again.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1u4v0o/i_sued_bfl_in_kansas_jurisdiction_and_won/

I sued BFL and won.

My case is a matter of public record, case 13LA09619

Judgement by default.  This can (and probably will) be appealed as there's a specific window where this can happen.

Edit:

Well, it appears he got a garnish paid, though it didn't say how much.

http://www.jococourts.org/  (search case: 13LA09619)

[raskul]

The problem is not accounting for delays in calculation. If you think you can preorder an asic then cancel your order when its no longer profitable(you think) then you should NOT be preordering an asic in the first place.

WRONG. A pre-order purchase is a contract. BA made a commitment to deliver on a specified date. If they cannot meet that date, their customers deserve the right to cancel that contract due to BA's failure to deliver. Especially in the US, it is the law.

You mean this contract?

Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.

however...
if you are in the UK and you 'just don't want the product' anymore. you are legally entitled to cancel up to delivery and 14 days after receipt of said product.

[wunch]

The problem is not accounting for delays in calculation. If you think you can preorder an asic then cancel your order when its no longer profitable(you think) then you should NOT be preordering an asic in the first place.

WRONG. A pre-order purchase is a contract. BA made a commitment to deliver on a specified date. If they cannot meet that date, their customers deserve the right to cancel that contract due to BA's failure to deliver. Especially in the US, it is the law.

You mean this contract?

Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.

however...
if you are in the UK and you 'just don't want the product' anymore. you are legally entitled to cancel up to delivery and 14 days after receipt of said product.

National consumer laws don't apply to orders outside of the host nation. BFL got sued as they are US based, black arrow are not US orUK based so it would be the consumer law where they are

[klintay]

The problem is not accounting for delays in calculation. If you think you can preorder an asic then cancel your order when its no longer profitable(you think) then you should NOT be preordering an asic in the first place.

WRONG. A pre-order purchase is a contract. BA made a commitment to deliver on a specified date. If they cannot meet that date, their customers deserve the right to cancel that contract due to BA's failure to deliver. Especially in the US, it is the law.

You mean this contract?

Delivery Terms9.1 The Products are delivered to the delivery address specified by the Purchaser, unless otherwise agreed. The delivery date is provided for information purposes only and shall not be binding on Us. The Purchaser is not entitled to refuse acceptance of the Products, withdraw, cancel or revoke the order or make claims for compensation due to any delayed delivery. 9.2 Where delivery is delayed due to any of the circumstances constituting force majeure in accordance with "Force Majeure" below or due to any act or omission by the Purchaser, the delivery period shall be extended by such a period as is reasonable in light of the circumstances. The delivery period shall also be extended where the cause of the delay arises after the expiry of the originally agreed delivery period.9.3 If the delivery is prevented due to the Purchaser’s negligent acts or omissions, the risk for the Products shall pass to the Purchaser on the date when the Products were ready for delivery.

BS! then ANYONE can put ANYTHING in their 10 size small print T&C and it is enforcable by law? Don't be a mug. I might as well say that if you click enter on my site that you agree to let me bugger your mum and you owe me $103489034709832798327492 dollars too and then sue you in court when you don't scroll all the way down before clicking enter. OR better yet put one of those limits on it where you can't click enter UNTIL you have scrolled down. Stop being a bell end please...

National consumer laws don't apply to orders outside of the host nation. BFL got sued as they are US based, black arrow are not US orUK based so it would be the consumer law where they are

yeah hk law, it says so in the T&C...and i am pretty sure they are inviolation of that too as it is modeled on the brit system. My friend is a lawyer and he says that the Hong Kong Sale of Goods Ordinance (Cap 26) is basically a replica of United Kingdom Sale of Goods Act 1979 

[jimmothy]

I'd like to remind everyone that refunds are not completely out of the question.

BA said they would tally up the refund requests and see if they have enough money to give the refunds from the margins. (10million usd already spent on tapeout)

I am pretty sure if you send them a few emails and bitch enough you can get a refund. Worst case you end up having to sell your order to one of the many willing to buy it.

[Bicknellski]

I'd like to remind everyone that refunds are not completely out of the question.

BA said they would tally up the refund requests and see if they have enough money to give the refunds from the margins. (10million usd already spent on tapeout)

I am pretty sure if you send them a few emails and bitch enough you can get a refund. Worst case you end up having to sell your order to one of the many willing to buy it.

If I remember rightly BA was going to go ahead with tapeout with or without customer cash. So using that as justification is disingenuous. Reality is if people ask for a refund it should be PROVIDED full stop. They are no different than BFL or Avalon if they start playing the we will see when we see game on refunds. That is not how to instill trust and likely will entrench the mindset that it is time to sue them to get refunds if push comes to shove. Given what I know of the people involved I hope they take the 100% refund route if people ask without prefacing it with but tapeout cost millions etc. no company can afford to piss off the community at this juncture especially BA pushing the delay as long as they did.

[wmmail07]

blackarrow

We're currently making a list with the refund requests to see if we can refund from our margin.

Again....
When will payments for refunds?
1 week, 1 month or more?

Thanks for the answer!

[jimmothy]

I'd like to remind everyone that refunds are not completely out of the question.

BA said they would tally up the refund requests and see if they have enough money to give the refunds from the margins. (10million usd already spent on tapeout)

I am pretty sure if you send them a few emails and bitch enough you can get a refund. Worst case you end up having to sell your order to one of the many willing to buy it.

If I remember rightly BA was going to go ahead with tapeout with or without customer cash. So using that as justification is disingenuous. Reality is if people ask for a refund it should be PROVIDED full stop. They are no different than BFL or Avalon if they start playing the we will see when we see game on refunds. That is not how to instill trust and likely will entrench the mindset that it is time to sue them to get refunds if push comes to shove. Given what I know of the people involved I hope they take the 100% refund route if people ask without prefacing it with but tapeout cost millions etc. no company can afford to piss off the community at this juncture especially BA pushing the delay as long as they did.

This is also true but I am just trying to relay the info from BA for those who missed it due to the spam/rage/trolls.

I don't know the exact details on how tapeout was paid for but based on the last comment I would guess they did use at least some of the preorder funds to pay for it. Some clarification on this would be nice as I too remember something about r&d being covered by their own funds.

I still wouldn't be surprised if BA finds that they do have enough cash on hand and decide to give out refunds. Would definitely make a few people happy.

[quantguy]

This is also true but I am just trying to relay the info from BA for those who missed it due to the spam/rage/trolls.

I don't know the exact details on how tapeout was paid for but based on the last comment I would guess they did use at least some of the preorder funds to pay for it. Some clarification on this would be nice as I too remember something about r&d being covered by their own funds.

I still wouldn't be surprised if BA finds that they do have enough cash on hand and decide to give out refunds. Would definitely make a few people happy.

jimmothy, what kind of affiliation do you have with BA?

[jimmothy]

This is also true but I am just trying to relay the info from BA for those who missed it due to the spam/rage/trolls.

I don't know the exact details on how tapeout was paid for but based on the last comment I would guess they did use at least some of the preorder funds to pay for it. Some clarification on this would be nice as I too remember something about r&d being covered by their own funds.

I still wouldn't be surprised if BA finds that they do have enough cash on hand and decide to give out refunds. Would definitely make a few people happy.

jimmothy, what kind of affiliation do you have with BA?

Bought an x-1. Happily waiting for the hardware I agreed to buy. But just as disappointed with the delays as anyone.

[jimmothy]

Bought an x-1. Happily waiting for the hardware I agreed to buy. But just as disappointed with the delays as anyone.

That explains your patience.

Please excuse me for not having sympathy for those smart enough to fork over several thousand usd worth of irreversible money without even reading the deal they are agreeing to.

[Unacceptable]

Bought an x-1. Happily waiting for the hardware I agreed to buy. But just as disappointed with the delays as anyone.

That explains your patience.

Please excuse me for not having sympathy for those smart enough to fork over several thousand usd worth of irreversible money without even reading the deal they are agreeing to.

[raskul]

This is also true but I am just trying to relay the info from BA for those who missed it due to the spam/rage/trolls.

I don't know the exact details on how tapeout was paid for but based on the last comment I would guess they did use at least some of the preorder funds to pay for it. Some clarification on this would be nice as I too remember something about r&d being covered by their own funds.

I still wouldn't be surprised if BA finds that they do have enough cash on hand and decide to give out refunds. Would definitely make a few people happy.

jimmothy, what kind of affiliation do you have with BA?

Bought an x-1. Happily waiting for the hardware I agreed to buy. But just as disappointed with the delays as anyone.

[OmegaCentauri]

Fun Facts:

Number of butthurt people who wanted refunds from BFL for 1+ year delays: 10,000

Number of people who took legal action against BFL for the delays and won: 0

Number of those butthurt people who actually lost money (in terms of USD): 0

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/02/new-lawsuit-against-bitcoin-miner-manufacturer-alleges-fraud-negligence/

One of the world’s most mysterious Bitcoin-related companies is now facing its first civil lawsuit in a United States federal court, with many more likely on the way.