I would bet the Jalapeno SHOULD be more efficient as you don't also turn a fan. Any power not directly running the hashing chip is wasted in the calculation. Then again actively cooled components can use some less power if they are running close to a thermal limit.
That having been said No I do not feel there was an obvoius deception from BFL. I had hoped for an early ship date. I didn't order promptly though and depending on how big the first run is I may do better or the same because of this. I didn't intend to use my cash for the upgrade. I paid with bitcoins I made with my a little over 6 weeks to ship single I received in may. The only "deception" I see is people not actually reading the whole agreement. I find it hard to blame a business over people apparently rampant illiteracy.
Lets look at it a different way. Lets say I am interested in watching Psych. It comes on after Monday Night Football. Now the NFL says the game should end before Psych starts. Somewhere along the lines more time is spent on instant replays and time outs plus the game is a real nail biter and goes into overtime. By the time the game is over the show I intended to watch that the NFL promised me would be on as scheduled is half over. Was I decieved? Personally NO. Many years ago before I realized that Political speaches, Football, Basketball, Hockey and other spots do not end on time reliably and no padding was ever put in of sufficient time to cover multiple overtimes and time outs or a prattling on elected official. Did I hope to get to watch the whole episode sure, but I didn't expect to get to.
I look at BFL actually in a better light then my example. They stated it wasn't late until January 2013. That seems like a hint. It could be as late as the first of next year. Do I think they tried to actually get everything together. Yes. Have I heard so far reasonable explinations for why a more complicated chip might be delayed. Yes. Do I personally think that their fabrication house will eventually get a chip that runs as well as BFL expects. Yes. The reason I look at BFL in a better light isn't that their hopeful finishing time was wrong, but because they actually gave a hopeful end date and a worst case scenerio type end. Sports and elected officals never give me the maximum time it could get to.
Could BFL run over January. Anything is possible. I think it is unlikely that they would. Then again in 3 weeks I may change my mind based on new(ish) information and a lack of time for another attempt.
As far as the working chip you really do seem to have the cart behind the horse as is proper. Expecting a fabrication house to put out a working chip in 3 months doesn't sound that unrealistic. July, to August, to September to October. At least I think the preorders started in June but even then I am leaving a month out just in case I am wrong. So by October whatever day they actually would have ordered in July they have had 3 whole months to spin up a chip, ship it, test it, and order a run of those. Maybe the timeline is a little tight but I can't imagine a 3 month backlog on a chip design. This is assuming they hadn't started the order before pre-orders started. I can't say they did try to get a chip fabbed up in time for a test shortly after preorders, so that wafers could be printed sooner.
Right now no ones numbers are really hard numbers, I would say though that if the process nodes of known chips are correct no one seems to think the power is out of the realm of possibility. bASIC seems to be shooting for a hardcopy setup and a larger size. If bASIC has a working prototype why don't they have a hard number from their prototype? My guess would be that bASIC doesn't want to quote their current numbers. It could be that they didn't bother measuring or that they don't care to release the information. At either rate I would take BFL's guess over nothing from bASIC. I think you're very forgiving of BFL's consistent do-over shipping dates, but that's your prerogative. I find it more than a little disturbing that they announced a product for pre-order so early in the year, began taking money for said product, and yet here 6 months later still do not have the primary component to build that product. Even when they do have working chips which I believe the latest estimate was mid Dec, there's still board layout, firmware, optimizing, testing, etc. Consider Tom's situation, if his releases are to be believed he has the chips, and he was still forced to announce a month and a half delay, but BFL is going to get the chips in mid Dec and ship by Jan 1? That doesn't even pass cursory sniff tests. Don't really understand all the bASIC doesn't release power info talk anymore. I did think Tom was being a bit too quiet on the subject, but he's since said 80-120 I believe. A good size range to be sure, but if you don't have a final board, and you're talking about increasing chips and hashes then a wide range is prudent. Assuming the power consumption is 120w for 72Gh, I got zero problems with that, just get the dang thing in a box and ship it to me. A single day hashing at current difficulty w/ 72Gh would likely pay me the difference between the single SC's power consumption costs and the bASIC01's for the entire year. Not to mention the huge disparity in $/Gh between these two competing gizmos. |
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Short on details and long on personal attacks. I got it Josh, thanks for all the clarification.  I think you know the definition, but let me give you an example (one of your more recent lies): They're also going to work through turkey day to ensure the deadline is MET. ...well unless turkey day falls on thanksgiving this year...it *IS* a holiday afterall. You also attributed that to me. So you are the very definition of a liar. I notice you just glossed over the fact that you were proven to be a liar, but hey... that's what liars do! I attributed that to you, because you said this: If there is work to be done on T-Day, we will be doing it. No turkey shall stand in the way of ASIC progress, this I promise you. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/258-bfl-%7C-asic-first-shipment-countdown-clock.htmlYou ARE also BFL_Josh are you not? Did you guys ship at the end of November as one of your many slipped shipping dates indicated? No? Remember at that time many thought you guys were closer to shipping products than you are now. There was no need to work on Turkey day because BFL didn't even have working ASIC chips on Thanksgiving, despite it being a month after your original shipping date, but that's 20/20 hindsight. Wow,you figured that out,no chips,no work on turkey day..............absolutely genius  Bravo,good sir  Thanks!  Seems you have no issue with this obvious deception from BFL? How were they ever going to ship in October or November when we now know they *STILL* don't even have a working ASIC chip? Without a hard power number what cooling will bASIC require hard to say. Nobody has hard power numbers. Both bASIC and Avalon have cited a range, because obviously they don't know what final power consumption will be. BFL on the other hand has said 1w/Gh. Doesn't matter if it's a Jally or a minirig, 1w/Gh. This is plainly not a hard number, as we know they neither have chips or boards to confirm this perfect power consumption symmetry across an entire product line. We do know that in the past, power consumption estimates, like shipping timelines from BFL, have been wildly optimistic and far from reality. |
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Short on details and long on personal attacks. I got it Josh, thanks for all the clarification. I think you know the definition, but let me give you an example (one of your more recent lies): They're also going to work through turkey day to ensure the deadline is MET. ...well unless turkey day falls on thanksgiving this year...it *IS* a holiday afterall. You also attributed that to me. So you are the very definition of a liar. I notice you just glossed over the fact that you were proven to be a liar, but hey... that's what liars do! I attributed that to you, because you said this: If there is work to be done on T-Day, we will be doing it. No turkey shall stand in the way of ASIC progress, this I promise you. https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/258-bfl-%7C-asic-first-shipment-countdown-clock.htmlYou ARE also BFL_Josh are you not? Did you guys ship at the end of November as one of your many slipped shipping dates indicated? No? Remember at that time many thought you guys were closer to shipping products than you are now. There was no need to work on Turkey day because BFL didn't even have working ASIC chips on Thanksgiving, despite it being a month after your original shipping date, but that's 20/20 hindsight. |
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Come on Josh, you cannot POSSIBLY be just an employee of BFL's. Nobody and I mean NOBODY would allow a condescending blowhard reeking of unjustified arrogance like you to represent their company for long. Who owns BFL? What's your stake? Surely that's not private info... I know, it's harsh when a company doesn't bend over backwards to please whiny little bitches like you, huh? It really sucks to run into a company that treats people who are irrational and entitled like they should be treated... well guess what? You get exactly what you deserve. You are a repeat liar and muckraker, as such you are treated with the same courtesy you show to others: None at all. It's really too bad more companies don't see the value in jettisoning useless "customers" like you that cost more to keep than they produce in income. I'd like to say that I feel bad for not bending over and kissing your ass and trying to make you feel all warm and fuzzy, but the truth is, I don't. Not only are you a poor "customer" that we want nothing to do with, you are a pathetic human being that should not be allowed interaction with civilized, rational adults. Unfortunately, the internet is the perfect breeding ground for anonymous assholes like you who are incapable of interacting with society outside of a monitor and keyboard, lest they be locked up. So go on, cry me another river of tears on how BFL treats you so poorly. Then tell me again how many products you have on order with BFL so I can better understand what grounds you have for your constant whining and complaining you do. Just keep talking buddy. You're really showing me what's what! a company doesn't bend over backwards to please whiny little bitches like you Can you elaborate on what this entails? Would say, NOT taking zero interest loans for vaporware months in advance of a fictional shipping date be considered "bending over backwards to please whiny little bitches?" I just seek clarification. Also, could you define the word "liar"? |
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Thanks for posting Lurk. This company has a lot of other people's money, skepticism is a good thing.
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That's bASIC pricing though and they're extremely unlikely to be able to produce that much hardware. Everyone else is much more expensive. Still I think the assumptions of difficulty increase are entirely too high. Miners will not simply act like lemmings and mortgage everything to pay for more and more hardware that just loses money for them(well some might), but most will notice they're not moving forward.
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You're right, your credibility isn't at stake, because you have none. You are an idiot and a liar, have been proven to be one numerous times over and yet you continue to post lies and BS. Yeah, you are a real stand up citizen!
Yeah, we'll see how many BTC that "transparency" buys you come January. Good luck with that. Ouch.  You nearly had me in tears with that scathing spot of sauciness. Come on Josh, you cannot POSSIBLY be just an employee of BFL's. Nobody and I mean NOBODY would allow a condescending blowhard reeking of unjustified arrogance like you to represent their company for long. Who owns BFL? What's your stake? Surely that's not private info... If you guys were on the nasdaq I'd be buying puts. |
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Another fine post Josh, thanks for contributing. The only thread of bankruptcy here is your credibility, which went bankrupt a long time ago. How's that transparency working out for you over in BTCFPGA land? Yeah well, it's not my credibility at issue here in this thread is it sir? Perhaps you missed the topic title. Since you asked, I'm disappointed with the delay of course, but I've chosen to stand pat with Tom because I believed his explanation. The fact that he didn't try to make it sound like a quick pass with the feather duster would tidy up the problems and instead announced a significant delay actually made it more credible. Obviously he knows paying customers will be disappointed and maybe even pissed and cancel, but he didn't try to pass it off as a two week delay with "fuzzy"(BS) dates. Get it? Is ANY of this sinking in? |
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Why must you be a customer to have concerns? Could someone that was just considering their options post?
These were not intended to be rhetorical, I don't go to BFL forum territory save to investigate a posted link.
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I wonder what BFL's balance sheet looks like. They could be at real risk of bankruptcy, particularly if they have actually dipped into pre-order funds for all this supposed chip tinkering. I wonder how long they can stay affloat while talking about bullet runs, respins, and multiple product delays.
Ironically it's ASICs and their pre-order launch in particular that's crimped the FPGA market, so I'm sure sales of existing products must be way down even with the upgrade policy in place.
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Yeah, I believe it's(and someone correct me if I gaff) BFL = 65nm, bASIC = 90nm, Avalon = 110nm, ASICMiner = 130nm.
I hate the delay(duh), but I can't bail even though my orders are late in batch 1. I still have confidence that Tom can deliver the goods. I also believe he struck the most ideal balance between efficiency, maturity of process, and economics by going with 90nm. While BFL looks great on paper, going with 65nm for a first product was a tremendous risk and if their reports are to believed it's biting them right in the ass.
Release a first product based on a proven design using a process that's relatively efficient and mature. THEN you can work on that fancy full custom 65nm hot rod in the back room and release that on the competition when sales wane. Intel type tick tock approach.
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Not with ASIC though. He who ships first will reel in a mother lode of orders. Dinking around with revisions while your competition ships could be brutal on the bottom line.
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All will not go well, it never does with BFL pre-orders. Apparently the re-spin rumors were accurate. I knew he was crabby about something. This just sounds like more fuzzy deadlines and hopeful shipping dates. I have been waiting to have more solid information but it's still not available to me at this moment and I'm going to bed soon, so I wanted to put out an update before I hit the sack.
While I can't give a hard date and say "absolutely" this is the date, it looks like the week of the 11th, but that's the "fuzzy" date I have at the moment and I'm waiting on confirmation on a not-fuzzy date from the foundry right now. There was a flaw in the chip that needed to be addressed and it pushed the date out, plain and simple. We are as frustrated with this process as everyone else is and we apologize for the delays. Contrary to some of the trolls over on Bitcoin Talk, we fully intended to start shipping at the end of October, but with a project as complex as this, even our built in padding has proved to be a bit inadequate to deal with all the moving parts, and we will have slipped by ~6 weeks after all is said and done.
The good news is that our shipment of chips will be substantial and we are re-addressing the quantities and compacting the shipment dates. We will have just shy of 100,000 chips available and in our hands before the end of the year, coming in two waves. The first wave will hopefully be the week of the 11th (probably more towards the end I'm guessing) and the second wave will be just before the end of the year. This is enough chips to cover all pre-orders and a lot more besides. This extra time also allows us to make some refinements we wanted to make to a few components, but more importantly, we may have just enough time to get a custom metal or silicon QFN package ready for the rev1 shipments (should know this week), and if that's the case, it will make rev1 boards ridiculously efficient at heat elimination. Originally this was going to be for Rev2 if we didn't go with a flip-chip design (but this would require a lot more work than our custom packaging) - but the extra time we are forced to endure is going to be put to good use.
Once again, we apologize for the delays. We hate them as much as everyone else (probably more), but as the competitors are experiencing as well, sometimes you are at the mercy of other people's schedules and problems. As we said months ago, we are trying to eliminate as many of those points of failure as possible by bringing everything we can in house. Of course, we can't bring a fab in house, so we are at their mercy at the moment. Once we get the chips in our hands, we will have a sufficient enough quantity to see us through until the next order and it should allow us to get up and running in house or at least make good headway into that arena. |
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Yeah...misdirection fail. This thread is about BFL fail, try to focus Josh. You're free to start a thread about anything you like, even your naked cosmos densities. IOW, go play troll.
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Somebody's cranky. I can answer/address nearly every one of those questions/comments and I don't have any affiliation with BTCFPGA aside from being a customer, a customer btw that was undecided in Sept. Guess what tipped the scales? Yeah it's a freaking joke alright. Your company's shipping date was October. Can YOU read a calender? Your early pre-order customers should've been hashing by now, based on your reassurances that this wouldn't be handled in the inept and unprofessional way in which BFL's FPGA product launch was...yet here you are pointing fingers and blathering in a disturbingly unprofessional way as usual. Oh that's right, you speak for BFL, you just don't represent them ATM. How's that fifth sixth week of November shipping schedule coming Josh? |
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Yeah, I'm very flustered and distraught, so much so I ordered more from them right after they indicated there was a problem. Not even a clue what you're prattling on about now, did you even read the post, or do you have some canned nonsensical gibberish on hotkeys? Do you take prescription medications?
YW. I knew you couldn't be relied upon to post it, despite saying you knew what I was talking about. How you got "lied" out of that I do not know, but whatever.
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Hello Customers and Friends, As it is already obvious to everyone, shipping will not begin today as originally planned. Tomorrow I have a meeting with the engineering and layout team and I will give a definitive date of when shipping will begin. I am ready to cancel as many orders and offer refunds to whoever needs them - just send an email with the request to dave@bitcoinasic.net and he will forward them on to me. All refunds requested today will be processed today. Although I caution you, we WILL be shipping these units, its just a matter of time and likely will be very soon. Our competition has already given several delays so I just please ask that you give me one day to meet with my team and figure out a realistic new shipping date and if you are not happy with that or if you are ready for a refund now please request it and it will be processed immediately. thank you Tom This whole message surprised me a bit, because I thought we'd settled on 1st week of Dec as the accepted shipping date anyway. Regardless the man said he'd give a definitive shipping date tomorrow, he reiterated his no questions asked refund policy, and dished out a 33% hashing power increase. He's bought till at least tomorrow from me, especially since I didn't even realize he still saw this week as his shipping date. |
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I noticed that they haven't updated their site as well, but I'll go ahead and keep them listed as 72/36.
That's about an extra 20-30% more GHs/1kUSD compared to BFL and Avalon. I have a few main concerns tho:
A) They're having to redesign the board, which could put drastic delays in shipping.
B) Will the number of orders shipping in the first batch remain the same if they now have to spread those chips over fewer units?
C) How do they expect to add more chips onto a redesigned board, and expect the power usage to remain the same? Yeah the extra speed is really nice and means you pay nearly $7/Gh less with bASIC than a Single SC, the decision just got a whole lot easier and there's a flood of new orders according to buzzdave. A) We shall see, Tom or Dave said the board may have to be increased in size slightly to accommodate. Tom still believes he can ship in the near future. No sense worrying too much, they promised to update the shipping question tomorrow. B) That's a tough one. They did that reclaimed order# thing because they seemed to think they had more than enough, then almost immediately they announced the increase in chip consumption/bASIC. There was also a comment from Dave that I found unusual about forgetting about batches and shipping out mass quantities of product. Perhaps we'll get more on this tomorrow. C) The whole thing seemed to come from the "enginerds" I believe they were called. The brief explanation from Dave seemed to read like they were able to increase efficiency by using 8 chips. Presumably this means they were able to lower power consumption of the chips themselves to the point that 8 now do more work and consume less power than 6. This is largely speculation on my part, but the powers of 2 explanation does makes sense. |
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He used to annoy me, back when I thought he was a for realz company rep, but now he cracks me up.  The fail volume is off the charts with nearly everything he posts. I should be thanking him, if it weren't for his antics I'd probably be near the back of BFL's waiting list instead of Tom's. Whew, bullet dodged. TY JOSH! BFL_Josh quote: If there is work to be done on T-Day, we will be doing it. No turkey shall stand in the way of ASIC progress, this I promise you. Guess it didn't happen.  https://forums.butterflylabs.com/pre-sales-questions/258-bfl-%7C-asic-first-shipment-countdown-clock.htmlI think the countdown clock broke right after that. |
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