That is really wishful thinking... ... likely, this kind of thing, if it were to occur at all at some point, would come from a smaller location first.. maybe argentina... or greece or zimbabwe or Haiti...   and probably it would NOT be all in .. but instead a experimental type exploratory situation

This attempt at a sum up is a somewhat better than your previous sum ups.. I suppose - to the extent that we have delved into details....   If you may recall, I have been kicking and screaming about having to go into the weeds regarding these various topics... so likely we have NOT truly discussed how I feel about government except for me to suggest the view that government is a product of community to decide how to design it and how much to have of it, if at all. ... but NOW, and in your most recent posts,  you are adding in this Fox news talking point (whether you watch Fox or NOT) about the evils of monopoly, which has its own set of baggage that we have NOT really discussed the various implications of monopoly.  With your various passions on this anti-government topic, you truly seem to be inclined to attribute viewpoints to people which will facilitate your attack and denigration.  I would suggest that you go attempt to be positive in the world and to build something rather than being obsessed with building fantasies to battle.

So go forth... ... I know you wont listen to any of my suggestion in this direction b/c you dont like being told what to do.   

I am NOT advocating anything besides beginning from reality and working from there.  I have NO problem with pushing for voluntary compliance to the extent that it can be achieved.  NONETHELESS, I cannot envision how we can move from the world we are in to some pie in the sky world without transitioning.  In other words, the price would be too high to get rid of government (all or even a large part) ... and to say, now all these services will be left to the private sector voluntarily.... your vision is too incomplete for such, and frequently, when we get rid of government in various areas, it just gets screwed up and instead of being screwed by government we are being screwed by capitalists who are gouging us to death through the amount the charge for what should be a public good. 
 
So let's move on and talk about bitcoin  or even litecoin  or even doge coin.. he he he

That is NOT a joke..  its an assertion that relying on bad information sources is going to be problematic for socializing people to accept varying viewpoints.

Yes, there is a context in which I made the  re-education statement. 

First of all, you seem to have some difficulties understanding basic principles and that is we grow up as a product of culture and communities, and some communities are stronger than others.  If for some reason, instead of watching bugs bunny, you grew up watching fox news, then you may need to be educated into social norms... b/c they taught you badly. 

Second, I am paying attention to what I am typing, and their has been a certain level of frustration  in that you have this tendency to continue to want to engage in a conversation in which we have repeated ourselves numerous times.  Can we just agree to disagree and move on, rather than your wanting to continue... ... So I my be expressing some frustration in continuing what seems to be a repetitive conversation






I doubt that all of societies issues can be resolved through these principles, yet the extent to which any or all of the three principles would apply would depend on the scenario.. whether it is policing, safety, park use, disabilities, health care, flying car traffic, water service or any other potential public good in question.

You cant stop the temptation of copntinuing to open up new quagmires. 

Since when am I embracing the various specific policies of the US government...?  Surely there are policies to defend and Surely there are grievances and governmental missteps.  And sometimes, the government is NOT acting within the will of the people.. in various regards.. and sometimes there is a balancing of powers between local and national governments, including the 10th amendment, as you suggested. 

I question why you want to continue to go into discussing all of these areas... and describe multiple abuses of the government.. Yes, I agre, there are lots of government abuses.... o.k..  ... so what does that mean, exactly?

Let's talk about bitcoin.

Yes... MAYBE we are beginning to get this point that you keep repeating over and over and over... yes... we know that this is what you say that you  believe.. so what is the point of continuing to repeat it over and over and over?

Do you believe that if you continue to repeat this narrow point as if it were some widely held maxim that shall not be violated, then people will really start to believe such a point?  Probably you don't even believe it, when push comes to shove.....

Personally, as I have likely stated several times, I do NOT disagree with the principle of voluntariness and striving towards such, but we do NOT just arrive at such a voluntariness out of the blue without transitioning from power dynamics that exist in the world...   B/c I recognize that power dynamics exist does NOT mean that I want to perpetuate them in their current form(s).




The world is NOT so simple as to apply the same principle throughout... in one blanket swoop.  I admit that Bitcoin can assist in solving lots of world problems - even likely in the directions that you are suggesting.. but NOT every single societal problem is gonna magically be resolved in one fell swoop.... at least NOT in the short term./.. NONETHELESS we may have some agreement that striving towards consensus and distributive networks is a good thing, and I will leave open the long-term possibilities that may be achievable through  reforms that may become  possible through bitcoin.

Finally the reference to hitler we have been awaiting... in this series of side trackings...    

Thanks for asking.  You are!      
 

I am talking about normal democracy an ordinary plain vanila decision making.. No need for extreme examples.. to try to make some Unpoint




I don't see a problem having various public facilities..... such as rest stops and parks.. even if they are NOT used very much or just a nature or open space reserve... regarding cleanliness, I am sure that will vary.




Freeloading only becomes a problem when you make contribution voluntary.. however, there can be potential ways to deal with the freeloading problem without having to resort to begging guys like you to contribute.








I am glad that you recognize society is complex.  I have already addressed your other points over and over..



 



I'm NOT joking, and I do NOT claim to be any expert... but I believe it works something like this.. you are in automatically, unless and until you opt out.  You are born into whatever society and community that you partake and you, hopefully, take on some of the societal values along the way.. unless you come out perverted from watching too much Fox news... and getting perverted ideas into your head about how you are being coerced.. and you need your freedom bullshit.  There is freedom within the social contract, from my understanding.  The obligations and responsibilities vary, and someone else negotiates for you until you grow up enough to understand... which I by now, you should already understand.  The consequences could be pretty grave including exile or death if you break certain social rules.  I should NOT have to explain these kinds of social contract principles to you.  If you want to change the social contract, then I suppose you can campaign.. which you seem to be attempting through this thread, but I am NOT the one to persuade... b/c I do NOT completely understand your situation but certainly it seems to me that you have adaptation issues.... b/c you seem unwilling or unable to accept and understand certain basic social contract principles...

Maybe you need to go to re-education so you can get in touch with the norms of your community?  Or practice some zen, so you are NOT getting so worked up about it.  there is only so much that you can change in any given society in any one setting, so acceptance should also be built into your psych... at least to some degree.






I don't disagree with this idea that there has been a redistribution of wealth from the poor to the rich... so I agree that taking money from the poor is a problem.  If the rich paid more of their fair share of taxes, then likely the poor would NOT need to be taxed  so much.. if at all....   there is some marit to the argument, though that everyone should contribute; however a problem that we have is that the burden has been distributed too regressively, and we need higher levels of taxation to the rich.. like the upper 1% of so should NOT be getting tax subsidies ..... well.... I have already covered this several times.,  it seems.

 A little excitement on the tail of an LTC boom. 

ATM:  I wouldn't know whether to predict up or down... but I am buying at $590 and selling at $999 (well maybe I wont sell b/c .... I'm too afraid to sell).

I have NOT gotten that far in my bitcoin storage experiment, yet.   

So, currently, I have coins distributed in Localbitcoins, BTC e, Coinbase and Blockchain.  I am working on traveling, so I remain a little bit worried about the practicality and utility of off-line storage.  But, I realize that, at some point, I will likely need to practice with off line storage.   

Surely, I am looking forward to someday solutions for these kinds of matters, including somehow making it easier to safekeep all my BTC in case anything were to happen to me, then I would be able to pass BTC to my intended heirs rather than donating them to the bitcoin network.

O.k.    I decided to take some advice from 686f646c (as cautioned above), and I moved 9 BTC from BTC e to a Blockchain.info wallet.    It took me nearly a week to accomplish this BTC movement b/c there were technical SNAFUs with my e-mail confirmations to BTC e.  I thought that I had confirmed with BTC e via e-mail, and then after three days, my BTC were still in the transfer section of the BTC e fund.  Thereafter, I submitted a ticket and got some weird-ass quasi non-responsive e-mails from BTC e support, which made me suspect that the BTC e support English skills are NOT too good.   

I then presented my issue in the BTC e troll box, and a couple responders reminded me to make sure that I adequately went through the e-mail confirmation process, which assisted me to identify the problem was that I had NOT properly confirmed. 

Anyhow, now I am fixed, and I have removed 9 BTC from BTC e, and put those 9 BTC into a blockchain wallet.... which also caused me concern, yesterday, when blockchain.info was down for quite a long time (more than 10 hours?)

Yeah... if you are managing someone else's stash, then there is more pressures to be careful regarding risks and to go with what, on average, is going to yield the better results.

Whether I am conflating or NOT, I am trying to use the current world as a starting point, rather than projecting some pie in the sky vision that is built upon a house of cards of conjectures about some speculative vision about "how things could be, if....".     One thing you seem to be arguing the same points over and over, including voluntary nature of participation in society - but using different creative terms to say the same thing about your not wanting to be a subject of rules unless you completely agree with them on some ultimately unattainable level of specific consent.




Yes, you are making such brilliant points that average individuals do NOT understand the profound nature of your abstractions.  Also, maybe you are failing to understand that it may NOT even matter whether or NOT you are correct b/c part of the resolution to be a part of a community is to compromise and to go along with the wishes of the community rather than imposing some superior vision upon the community.. even if you were to be correct. Personally, I am NOT as attached to outcomes, so long as the public is getting what it wants, and ultimately will likely result in the entering into various compromises that will NOT be satisfactory to every single individual.  Sometimes, that means that we cannot have our cake and eat it too.






Yes, if you are trying to privatize all or a majority of public goods, then it becomes very likely that you are going to fail to allow for the public good  to serve the public.  As I mentioned before, probably you have been watching too much fox news... which is neither news nor informative... especially getting so passionate about wanting to get your way and wanting to place public goods into market competition. You are correct that some times there are going to be ways to make matters more efficient, but competitive free market forces are NOT necessarily the solution to distributing various public goods and services.




I argue that you are trying to oversimplify the various levels of government and the various public goods and services that governments need to provide.  Your supposed hypothetical system is NOT going to end up covering various needs and goods b/c it will result in a bunch of freeloaders, like you seem to be, who do NOT want to pay, unless they agree with what they are paying.





Of course, I am presenting my information in good faith, and you seem inclined to want to waste time b/c you want to delve back into the substance of arguing.  Seems that you recharged yourself over the past few days b/c you are so intent on being correct and winning.  Yet, when we are talking about community values, none of us will get to completely call the shots b/c we have to be able to work together to figure out what is best for the community and hopefully, figure out which representatives are going to best serve in the public interest (rather than their personal / private interests). 








You seem to come up with these perversions through a sense of maniacal focus about yourself.  IN the end the social contract is one of consent, even though you keep saying that you feel forced.  The community is NOT imposed on you, but a state of mind about whether you belong to the community comes from you, not from other imposing their will upon you.  I realize that may be too abstract for you to comprehend b/c you keep coming back to the same monotonous assertion that you are being forced.  Poor thing.       Maybe the solution is that you have to figure how to live with yourself, and several of you libertarian wanna-be s have been citing Alan Watts... which is fine and dandy.. b/c there is a certain amount of self empowerment that is projected through his teachings.



Sure there are mixed views about the various goals of government, and freedom is one of those goals... that is weighed by the community.




Yes, you seem to be repeating an idea that you already stated... that somehow various public goods need to compete, and it seems you are going to come to bad and wrong conclusions if you attempt to put public goods and services into the free market.


In sum, I thought that we had agreed to disagree on some of these questions, and it seems that you want to get into some intricate battle over foundational matters in which we have differing assumptions.... and didn't we already cover these various matters ad nauseum?

Yes, I can relate to some degree. 

I have a fairly accurate Excel spreadsheet that allows me to keep track of various particulars regarding my BTC investment actions.

And, I have employed a couple of methods to attempt to bring down my average BTC buy-in price, which I am sure are similar to what you have attempted.. maybe with differing budget, timing (or luck).

One tactic has been to attempt to buy more BTC at a lower price (if we can figure that out), and then the other tactic is to trade... sell and then buy again lower (if we can figure that out).  I got burned a few times trying the trade method..  so I feel a bit more comfortable with the keep buying method.

In the end, we each buy within our budget, risk tolerance and prediction parameters and attempt to budget accordingly without panicking.

Whether rosie color glasses or NOT, I was thinking 1-2 years in BTC, too... unless there is some dramatic news that changes the fundamentals...Accordingly, in the end, within the coming months, BTC does seem to be have pretty good fundamentals and upside potential to get us into the black and to cause us to stay in the black... with a little cushion....

I don't mean to get too personal with you, Richy_T, but I was wondering whether you and Chartbuddy have a special relationship? 

For example, will chartbuddy take your side in a political discussion?  or does chartbuddy do the opposite?  B/c if chartbuddy does the opposite, then you may want to try some reverse psychology with him/her? 

HOW far into the red are you?   Truly, given all the low buy opportunities over the last three months, you must be below $800 average buy-in BTC price, no?

I think the key component of your statement is "that's unlikely though."     All these cryptos seem to be too connected and foggy  in the recent months.... accordingly, they do NOT really seem to be self-contained units... especially if one of the bigger ones gets public attention of some sort... and a somewhat ironic thing about this particular situation seems to be that LTC has a potential here, maybe only in the very short term of a few weeks, to drive upward various crypto prices.... I do NOT really buy zero sum game arguments, even though there may be some of that occurring, too (between some coins).

A funny thing that is likely to develop will be that LTC will drive sufficient excitement in which BTC and various other cryptos will follow the excitement....   I am somewhat doubtful that we would get a significant rally in LTC without getting some collateral "damage" meaning upward impact upon BTC.

I will admit that I do NOT always see too clearly; however, it is my sense that the question in front of us within this thread of the conversation does NOT concern when LTC is put into any exchange (in china or wherever that may be) - even though that factor seems to be driving the current price uptick.   

From my reading, which could possibly be wrong, the question in front of us, in this line of the thread, was concerning when LTC would go over $50, if at all.   Hope that helps to put us generally on the same braille.