I hear what you are saying.....however..

 Technology is a double edged sword... as is "progress"  while progress should not be, "progress" is..  and has been for a considerable amount of time/human history, and often involves two steps forward one step back.  

 We already fall victim to "technological progress" outstripping the speed at which we can legislate or adapt or learn as a society or to adapt to the changes it brings with it  (this includes things like the slow uptake of educating the younger masses to code,  or dealing with the consequences of losing traditional "book" learning, the dwindling areas of natural beauty, legislating against powerful technologies)  There are challenges no doubt.

It would be very wise (for mankind) to start to cherry pick from technology/progress...   there is no denying that, that is a skill, a behaviour,  that needs to be developed by humanity...and more so as technology become more and more powerful.

  
However I would counter some of your points...   and I also would say that things need to get worse before they get better...

 In terms of script kiddies, I would still put it to you that the internet, and modern times is bringing more information to peoples fingertips than ever before in human history and in more parts of the world, imagine if  as in your example Martin Luthur could have spread his message via the internet for example as well as the way he already did... or any of the greats, and it is not as if those very books written over the ages were not controlled in their distribution...the printing press was the internet of its time... and was controlled and censored too, and still is in fact.    

The same is true for script kiddies, the more readily available this information becomes (and has become) in a free decentralised manner the more people "worldwide" are, and are going to continue to be able to benefit from it, not just children in sunny suburbs of north London in private or comprehensive/public school education, with their nice (costly) freshly printed text books... the information (text books) that as a child, I and every child (or rather their parents)  had to buy, or our schools had to buy, and then buy again the books for the next year, and the year after that, and the year after that, while again the younger children (their parents) that are following years or two behind, also had to purchase newer updated versions of published books, the same information printed centuries ago, for example Newton’s laws, has been bought and paid for millions of times over by parents (or the schools) around the globe for how long? The giant publishing corporations reaping the benefit of this process, year after year... whilst also no doubt also prescribing to and following strict editorial content controls, i.e censorship, doesn't sound egalitarian to me either...this information now should be a matter of public domain and be freely available via the internet for all.

   There are not enough people YET that can code, but there will be there has always been times in history when the government, especially of the UK has looked, into their glass ball, and decided that there is going to be a shortfall of certain skill set, not so long ago reading was one of them.. (And disturbingly may be again that would be that "progress")  However the freedom of information IS there... and living in the UK I can tell you, that there are more script kiddies, more script adults here than ever before, certainly more than when the internet was born... and not just in the UK, worldwide and the process has to start somewhere

(Technology, is one thing, and then there is society which is another, the tools are there, and becoming available, the will from society to use them, and in the correct fashion is another thing all on its own)
 
Talking of talking of Martin Luthur, and the topic of books, or print... or mass printing shall we say..  And with it the ability to disseminate information to the masses in written form. The printing press was at its time powerful technology, Gutenberg is credited with inventing the first movable type mass printing machine, though there was printing before him of course, but that was sometime around 1436/40..  much of the world, and by this I mean the masses , and even here in the UK , took up to 450 years or more to catch up and get to the point where it could be said that mass illiteracy had been eradicated..  450 years! that is 450 years of books printed, where most of the people, unless rich, and educated could not actually read them, much less write them.  Illiteracy is still a global problem with around 17%-20% of the world still being illiterate, this is set to decline to around 1% by 2060..  and this is going to be in part because of technology, and the internet, even in this day and age there are still around 1.5 billion people on the planet that cannot read and write... we need to get to them first before we start the mission to add scripting to the list of languages that people can read and write...

My point being, like I said the change may take longer than people have expected, but due to the exponential rate at which technology is growing, many of the problems that we have are rapidly going to find solutions within the coming decades.. I still believe that the internet is going to continue to be a powerful and beneficial tool for the world as a whole, and I am not just talking about westerners.. fact is even public school students, in the west have every opportunity available to themselves to educate themselves and use the system in place and the internet to educate themselves if they so choose and the internet plays a
massive part in offering this opportunity to those willing to learn And in schools in this country, coupled with the internet,  every child, with the will  to learn can learn... and I believe technology is going to continue to reduce the cost of providing fair and equal resources to all children, everywhere, getting rid of those text books is a good place to start, a computer for every child is another...  these things cannot all happen at once... but as they do, more and more children and adults in more and more places , some of whom are more disadvantaged than north london public shools (if you can imagine) will have the opportunity to learn.

(by the way, by folded bits of paper in folded bits of cow ,  I was not talking about books,  I LOVE a good book , made of paper, I was talking about wallets and bank notes)

"From where I am (surrounded by bush land, listening to the birds, watching wallabies bound by, hearing a possum nestling in the roof, being disturbed by geckos scrabbling through the leaves)  then London, New York, Tokyo seems like a nightmare"  FTFY

Again I hear you, and I do not think one needs to be sacrificed for the other.. it sounds like you cherry pick the worse of what technology can bring ........ while there is no denying there are potential nightmares that could come from tech this is no reason to banish the idea all together...   for example would a highly efficient mass transport system, that uses less resources and transports more people (in a global population that could double in the next 50-60 years) maybe underground, be a more efficient use of natural resources and our environment,  and possibly be a greener solution, be better for the world than billions of petrol guzzling cars?  Or would a network of small powerful, solar powered nano fuel celled drones (with the capability to deliver the few goods that would not be available in information files directly, or from a decentralised local source) that delivers far fewer items, but locally, faster, quicker, safer, quieter, using less resources, be better than a dirty great big lorry/plane/cargo ships/car/motorbikes trundling all over the place?  Also it sounds great where you live... but what about the other 7.2 billion people on the planet ?

 Overall there are many many many real world examples of technology, that is , and is going to bring real and beneficial change to segements of society that are sreaming out for it... progress is a double edged sword no doubt, and I am not suggesting it is not... but it is unstoppable... and whilst I am not saying I am looking forward to talking vending machines (actually I was asking, in half jest, are YOU ready?)  but AI is something I believe will be significant for society.

 I think cherry picking the best from technology, whilst reducing world wide problems, and poverty and hunger and disease and education and solving the resources problem, and pollution problems, and striving for a safer , more open, informed society are things that are all slowly becoming a reality, and are looking more and ore possible everyday...  my intial point was that the original inventors of the internet, you mention are not so pleased today... well it took 450 years for people on masse to reach a stage of literacy after gutenberg, and it is going to take an exponentially less amount of time, in my view for the benefit of the internet and the modern technology to actually stamp its stamp on the human race,  far less than 450 years... but far more than the pre dot com era bullish investors thought, and as it turns out slower than Tim Berners Lee et al had hoped too.. but still a lot faster than 450 years (and counting)


 No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater... I guess it what I am saying, we need more people engaged in pushing forward the benefits of technology and pushing the aspects that we wish to encourage.... and protecting the aspects of our society and globe that we wish to protect. Like a hammer, technology is a tool and it can be used for good, or be used to cause great pain and injury...I see the benefits of the internet far out weigh the pornification, cult of celebrity etc)
 One thing I will say though, is that actually yes, one of the challenges of the increasing technological progress that is coming, will certainly be the effects on physical and mental health, and also the environment,  I do not doubt that,  but then that problem is already a part of our present and our history and will continue to be a part of our future even more so with digital sensory overload, and life extension etc etc.. in fact, already technology does things that 100-200 years ago were considered “god like” in their power, and I believe that this trend is going to continue is mind boggling ways… over the next  100 years, and the closer the technology gets to “god like”  the more strain it will put on humans, the further away we get from what it was to be considered human.  Though strangely enough it had been suggested we already would have reached this stage and as it turns out, humans seemingly lap it up as it comes, more data,  more speed, more information.. it is almost as if we have as part of our own evolution started to merge with machine..  I am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing, or if it is something that we even could have any control over (imagine it as a function of evolution and then imagine trying to stand in its path)  
But yes the further down this route we go the further we go from being “human”  

Do you think if tech enables a man to live to be 1000 years old (the first human to do so may already be alive) will that man be "human"?  I would probably say that "no" they would not be, not in any classical sense of the defintion.

Should we stop this and detour or double back from this path we are on? Now that is a question of massive scope… massive..

 For now I say that give the tech, including "the internet" and the emerging disruptive technologies and the next generation tools that are now being built (and the humans behind them) a chance...not an open pass, but certainly a chance, and some time......  they may surprise you...and I still have faith.

ps.. I could do with escaping this concrete jungle for a while... funny enough Kakadu is calling)

  Made me laugh...  

"borat of philosophy"

Brilliant.. but nevertheless sometimes he does say something that gets the mental gears churning... little bit of madness never hurt... ....

I like Chomsky.. but do you think he may be getting a little out of touch these days himself?

He was quoting Oscar Wilde



"There is also this to be said. It is immoral to use private property in order to alleviate the horrible evils that result from the institution of private property. It is both immoral and unfair.

Under Socialism all this will, of course, be altered. There will be no people living in fetid dens and fetid rags, and bringing up unhealthy, hunger-pinched children in the midst of impossible and absolutely repulsive surroundings. The security of society will not depend, as it does now, on the state of the weather. If a frost comes we shall not have a hundred thousand men out of work, tramping about the streets in a state of disgusting misery, or whining to their neighbours for alms, or crowding round the doors of loathsome shelters to try and secure a hunch of bread and a night’s unclean lodging. Each member of the society will share in the general prosperity and happiness of the society, and if a frost comes no one will practically be anything the worse.

Upon the other hand, Socialism itself will be of value simply because it will lead to Individualism.

Socialism, Communism, or whatever one chooses to call it, by converting private property into public wealth, and substituting co-operation for competition, will restore society to its proper condition of a thoroughly healthy organism, and insure the material well-being of each member of the community. It will, in fact, give Life its proper basis and its proper environment. But for the full development of Life to its highest mode of perfection, something more is needed. What is needed is Individualism. If the Socialism is Authoritarian; if there are Governments armed with economic power as they are now with political power; if, in a word, we are to have Industrial Tyrannies, then the last state of man will be worse than the first. At present, in consequence of the existence of private property, a great many people are enabled to develop a certain very limited amount of Individualism. They are either under no necessity to work for their living, or are enabled to choose the sphere of activity that is really congenial to them, and gives them pleasure. These are the poets, the philosophers, the men of science, the men of culture – in a word, the real men, the men who have realised themselves, and in whom all Humanity gains a partial realisation. Upon the other hand, there are a great many people who, having no private property of their own, and being always on the brink of sheer starvation, are compelled to do the work of beasts of burden, to do work that is quite uncongenial to them, and to which they are forced by the peremptory, unreasonable, degrading Tyranny of want. These are the poor, and amongst them there is no grace of manner, or charm of speech, or civilisation, or culture, or refinement in pleasures, or joy of life. From their collective force Humanity gains much in material prosperity. But it is only the material result that it gains, and the man who is poor is in himself absolutely of no importance. He is merely the infinitesimal atom of a force that, so far from regarding him, crushes him: indeed, prefers him crushed, as in that case he is far more obedient.

Of course, it might be said that the Individualism generated under conditions of private property is not always, or even as a rule, of a fine or wonderful type, and that the poor, if they have not culture and charm, have still many virtues. Both these statements would be quite true. The possession of private property is very often extremely demoralising, and that is, of course, one of the reasons why Socialism wants to get rid of the institution. In fact, property is really a nuisance. Some years ago people went about the country saying that property has duties. They said it so often and so tediously that, at last, the Church has begun to say it. One hears it now from every pulpit. It is perfectly true. Property not merely has duties, but has so many duties that its possession to any large extent is a bore. It involves endless claims upon one, endless attention to business, endless bother. If property had simply pleasures, we could stand it; but its duties make it unbearable. In the interest of the rich we must get rid of it. The virtues of the poor may be readily admitted, and are much to be regretted. We are often told that the poor are grateful for charity. Some of them are, no doubt, but the best amongst the poor are never grateful. They are ungrateful, discontented, disobedient, and rebellious. They are quite right to be so. Charity they feel to be a ridiculously inadequate mode of partial restitution, or a sentimental dole, usually accompanied by some impertinent attempt on the part of the sentimentalist to tyrannise over their private lives. Why should they be grateful for the crumbs that fall from the rich man’s table? They should be seated at the board, and are beginning to know it. As for being discontented, a man who would not be discontented with such surroundings and such a low mode of life would be a perfect brute. Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made, through disobedience and through rebellion. Sometimes the poor are praised for being thrifty. But to recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less. For a town or country labourer to practise thrift would be absolutely immoral. Man should not be ready to show that he can live like a badly-fed animal. He should decline to live like that, and should either steal or go on the rates, which is considered by many to be a form of stealing. As for begging, it is safer to beg than to take, but it is finer to take than to beg. No: a poor man who is ungrateful, unthrifty, discontented, and rebellious, is probably a real personality, and has much in him. He is at any rate a healthy protest. As for the virtuous poor, one can pity them, of course, but one cannot possibly admire them. They have made private terms with the enemy, and sold their birthright for very bad pottage. They must also be extraordinarily stupid. I can quite understand a man accepting laws that protect private property, and admit of its accumulation, as long as he himself is able under those conditions to realise some form of beautiful and intellectual life. But it is almost incredible to me how a man whose life is marred and made hideous by such laws can possibly acquiesce in their continuance."

"The Soul of Man under Socialism" - Oscar Wilde-  on a libertarian socialism bent.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The take away for me though:

"The proper aim is to try and reconstruct society on such a basis that poverty will be impossible."  Oscar Wilde.

Not been made a reality yet, something that has evaded the world... will technology solve the problem? not on its own... as the man made mechanism behind the problem needs to alter too..

I would even go for "extreme poverty will be impossible" to start off with...

I do not think the answers to our solutions are behind us... but in the future world.. I think some of the concepts we bring from centuries past may have to continue to change, even down to core concepts like money, property, work.

Peering into the future....and taking into account exponentially increasing technology and not to mention increasing population and the increasing automation we are going to see in the coming decades, if we reach some sort of state of technological abundance,  then poverty, extreme poverty at the very least will be a thing of the past, we would hope.... however with the massive automation of tasks coupled with massive life extension, hugely increasing population, minimal space are going to bring new problems. This is assuming that we can achieve a form of technological abundance and solve our resources problem. A world of abundance is also probably a world of technological unemployment, an abundance of human labor will exist because there will be more people than jobs, so what would be the solution, control the supply of labor by limiting the amount of hours people can work? shorter work days/weeks or early retirement? also if there is an abundance of goods in part because of the ever increasing digitisation of everything? ..........and if there are more people than work, then what are the solutions?
 artificial scarcity? banning technologies? or will work and income and therefore property have to all change? for example will the answer be to provide unconditional income - just paying people for nothing? or some sort of conditional means tested money transfers system? or perhaphs just a direct supply of basic needs met including food, housing, health care, or is it that the government provide jobs i.e  construction of national infrastructure, community service, reading a book, playng a violin... cracking virtual rocks..


For now though a form of pseudo capitalism and psuedo socialism will continue to live side by side slowly morphing and losing their meaning

What are your ideas/thoughts/recommended reading/solutions/specific criticisms may I ask?

fo sho' good catch..

has a lovely tone... bedtime stories

This piece puts it at around $50,000 worth of fees for the sunday


http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/malfunctioning-bitcoin-trader-bot-causes-extremely-high-volume-bitcoin-exchange-btc-e/2014/08/31

FinTech Manifesto: Government Should Make UK Bitcoin-Friendly

http://www.coindesk.com/fintech-manifesto-government-make-uk-bitcoin-friendly/

Google Analyst: Bitcoin Could Be ‘The Internet of Money’


http://www.coindesk.com/google-analyst-bitcoin-regulation/

I recommend watching this=  http://youtu.be/hpAMbpQ8J7g   Slavoj Zizek investigates the surprising ethical implications of charitable giving.  

It touches on many discussions  that have been discussed here in this thread by many (soicety, freedom, (crony) capitalism, property, property is theft, big government,taxation/charity/socialism/welfare state etc) and it reaches a nice crescendo...  

Slavoj slaying it... even if you do not agree with everything he says he is a pleasure to listen to...brain nourishment.


 

THE POWER OF NETWORKS - (REALLY NICE VIDEO- and relevant)

http://youtu.be/nJmGrNdJ5Gw

Hobgoblins everywhere...

Thanks for the link will check it out.

Regarding your comparison to the internet, I do remember the promise that the net was going to change the world, and yes I remember people thinking it would happen straight away, which for some users it did, it did for me for example, within hours of using it I knew it would play a major part in my world, but the world as a whole thought it would do much more, and much quicker... I believe some guys got quite upset as a scan back at the charts shows..
 However, 25+ years later and the internet IS/HAS changed the world, and is really starting to notch that change up a gear... and now there are more and more script kiddies and no doubt there will be more and more in the next decades. Technology and the rate at which it reaches the masses, is becoming faster and faster, what took the internet 25+ years, could take the wave of tools built on top of the internet (Cryptocurrency for example) 10 years to achieve... (much like mobile phones when they first came out took x amount of time to reach ubiquity, however smart phones and ipads only took x/4 amount of time, even shorter maybe) Fact is cryptocurrency could not really have existed until the internet had matured more... and yes while there are powers that seek to control the net, there are other very smart people that are working ways to keep it free. The internet of money, or money for the internet, digital money, is something that the internet has been SCREAMING out for, in fact it is without doubt the next logical step, it has been on the minds of many for the past 25 years.... and with the advent of the internet of things I believe even more so... couple that with decentralised autonomous corporations/service providing drones and robots, and other decentralised technologies (power, water etc)  the advent of a decentralised digital currency makes more than sense... it is a reality... and the rapid rate of development that is going to occur in the developing world over the coming decades, coupled with the advancements in technology are also going to play into this.  Will there still be players seeking to monetise and control and profit from the structure... you bet... big data and automation are going to be even bigger business than today... AI and enhanced human intelligence and the never ending exponential evolution of technology and therefore humans evolution, is awe inspiring, and the implications of all of these changes, are immense, for society and individuals....  but the crux of this is that changes are going to become more pronounced, and come to us more rapidly... yes the promise of the internet has taken over quarter of a century to get to where it is today... but I truly believe that the changes over the next 25-50 years are going to equal hundreds of years , if not more of "progress".. I say "progress" because actually in a way we already are starting to fall victims to the rapid onslaught of technological advancements, technology has already started to outpace legislation, outpace the speed at which we can measure and access the impact of the technology on society and individuals, the environment etc... and so there is a bit of a double edge sword there. People are going to look back in 50 years (probably sooner) and wonder what we were doing walking around with folded bits of pulped dead tree, in folded bits of cowhide and think "how quaint/barbaric"  

Changes probably will take/is taking longer than some people think...and progress sometimes can be subtle, but they are happening, and the ideals that were enshrined in both the early internet, and now in early Bitcoiners minds, have not died...  if you think about it the "original ideals of the internet" you speak of are now being pushed forward again inpart by the Cryptocurrency/BTC movement and all that comes with it (in terms of democratisation, privacy,decentralisation etc)

First people have got to figure the how.. then they can move onto the why, where and for what, the tech can be used to hack/change/make/disrupt.

Are we there yet?


http://youtu.be/woBWZpMiR70

Looking forward to your vending machine and or operating system chatting to you?

Also ... this is a nice video... 
THE POWER OF NETWORKS - http://youtu.be/nJmGrNdJ5Gw

I think we will see something like


 Arbitrage    10.00%
 Fundamental 10.00%
 Momentum  10.00%
 Option spreads 10.00% (eventually)
 Pattern recognition 10.00%
 Spreading - hedging 10.00%
 Technical    15.00%
 Trend-following    25.00%

------------------------------------------------------------

 Bitcoin + ecosystem 70.00% (ish, maybe less, maybe more)
 Energy 10% -20%
 Precious metals    5%-10.00%
 Industrial metals 5% - 10.00%

 Maybe even a few pennies thrown at grains/livestock    

 That would be my guess

do not get me wrong... I am not saying that these guys or GABI are "saviours"...  far from it.. (I did not realise Bitcoin was in need of saving) I am not even saying GABI is that important per se... but it is what it is.. I was more confirming that they more than likely DO have their ducks in a row (vis a vis the $200 million bucks they think they will be playing with in the next 6 months...) which has implications... also even if it is regulated in Jersey it is still regulated so their is some oversight... this is a world first... so it is something.. on its own not so much.. but added with others to follow, it all adds to the buying pressure, and will bring some liquidity along with it...  I as a matter of interest will be keeping a keen eye on who these players are that enter the market and continue to add tidbits of information for my own due dilligence and to satisfy my obsession...

I know all about JP Morgan, and indeed the company I worked with merged with them while I was there.. so basically I actually worked there for a period.. and I worked with a lot of decent and very straight people (more so than in the city) from Jersey too and smart people..

I just happened to be in a position to provide details.... so I thought I would let blast...

Also I actually found that much of my interactions with Jersey led me to work with and deal with a good deal of very very straight individuals...  now not to say that there is not some rotten players.. I am sure there are as there are everywhere..  but on the whole, compliance wise and technology wise, I for one am glad that places like Jersey and the Isle of Man are getting involved..

I hear what you are saying, I just think that Bitcoin is going to do what Bitcoin does ... and will continue to do .... and I think funds , this one and future ones are going to play a role, even if we like it or not..  and they will be important for as long as they are.. and not any longer... so based on that I choose to acquire information..... apart from the "not bozos" and "serious players"  "connected"  I did not offer an opinion on if I think this is overall a good thing...  truth is
I am also concerned about this crowd you speak of.. but as it goes not the GABI crowd so much.. they are peanuts ... I would be FAR more worried about Daniels ex employee JP Morgan, than Daniel and GABI.... ultimately even those guys...I do not think they will be the end of BTC... could they cause a crazy ride on the way up?and down and up and down .... yeah... do I think so... but how long they can keep their grip for... will depend on how big BTC grows... fact is many markets are manipulated, and it sucks and that coupled with the never ending fresh crispy notes, makes price discovery near meaningless.. which has all sorts of implications not just for BTC.. and yeah the world would be a better place with those guys power eroded, and I think we will get there...

for now though.. the enemy of my enemy is my friend


(the growing reality of decentralisation (not just in finance, but in other areas too which technology is impacting and disrupting) is still what excites me the most... by far... and that journey has only just begun, of that I am very sure... and of course the manipulated markets, the games, and the money printing are all part of what BTC holds the promise to address)

(Aside from the more obvious areas related to politics and society, finance/economics and liberty, which are often a red rag to a bull on this thread....  I see the "internet of things" as an interesting topic in terms of BTCs future and its potential (and also the implications of the internet of things to decentralisation in general)...another area I have been researching,  I may rattle on about that for a while at a later date)


ALSO... I do not find it insignifcant... that just from one connection I had, I see that former employees 5 or so of the legacy financial system... are making their way and spreading into various parts of the Bitcoin ecosystem...  could it be that some of them ... some of them... have seen delight? I have no problem with professionals entering the network as long as they bring something of value.... many of them are in a position to know the games played better than many others... interesting that BTC has drawn such a diverse mix of talent from so many fields.. (engineers, coders, designers, economists, cryptology experts, humanitarians, scientists etc,  and even ex-"bankers" ... it is a massive brain fund, and for once the JP Morgans and GoldmanSacks, Enrons of the world may not be "the smartest guy in the room")  

Indeed, you can see the past three funds that have been launched by Global advisors,  2 in black, one is down.. and ?  and if you have a read...... also if you look at the timing of the other two they closed back in 2007 and the situation with the market at the time commodities were getting hammered , and they had a load of investors pull out...

Anyway the guys are not bozos... and I am not sure Daniel is so chummy anymore with some of the JP crowd... and Blythe is now his ex wife.

Also yeah I know all about Blythe, she pretty much was commodities trading at JP for a while... slippery... anyone who has ever traded silver knows all about her and her gangs supposed games..

I am only playing here...... but where did you get it? have you got a number? cos that must be some primo stuff you are smoking  

I am a bull... but holy moly batman that is bullish.... the 5-10 bit within the next year I can imagine... the $100,000 plus within a year and a half... well I have trouble allowing myself.. bejesus could you imagine it... ha ha oh my...


(now I am gonna go and read the link   )

... if that is what you take from it.. then so be it Jorge... so be it...

just for you creekbore