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3061  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [If tx limit is removed] Disturbingly low future difficulty equilibrium on: July 24, 2011, 08:49:12 PM
When a single entity has 51% everyone is informed by their client and Bitcoin spending stops, the moment the attacker breaches 51% everyone using Bitcoin is told not to spend or accept until such a time as the attack ceases.

Blocks are anonymous.  How do you propose to figure out the distribution of hashing power?
3062  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [If tx limit is removed] Disturbingly low future difficulty equilibrium on: July 24, 2011, 02:43:55 AM
the problem with this argument is that the system is set up to offer strong security now, and progressively weaker security later on. Apparently, most people only care about the current operation of the system. The fact that it is probably not sustainable doesn't bother anyone. I think it is just a seeing is believing issue. Depressingly similar to US gov't finances.

Just because you keep saying something doesn't make it a fact.
3063  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [If tx limit is removed] Disturbingly low future difficulty equilibrium on: July 23, 2011, 02:41:05 AM
I'll note that you did not pose any kind of argument to back up your claim that anything I said was stupid.

Actually, yes, I did.  I'll repeat it here for you now.  Listing a few of your invalid assumptions is the polite way to say that your arguments are stupid.

Your assumptions are invalid.  I'm not talking about your stated assumptions, but your unstated ones.

First invalid unstated assumption:  The ratio of block reward to total BTC supply is meaningful.  You actually do state this assumption, but you do it in a way that makes it look like an established fact, and not the baseless assumption that it is.  Rather than give it a cute and emotionally charged name like security, I prefer to name this ratio cerulean.  Do you have any reasons to believe that anyone should care about this ratio?

Second invalid unstated assumption:  The current value of cerulean, or security as you may still prefer to call it, is the correct value, even though this value is an accident of time.  If you had written this post a day earlier, or even 10 minutes, or for that matter 10 minutes later, the value of the ratio would be different.  Not by much, if the interval is small, but by a lot if we get into months.  What was special about yesterday that make that day's value correct?  How did bitcoin even get this far, since a month ago, the ratio was different by 3%, and a whopping 38% a year ago?

Third invalid unstated assumption:  Bitcoin needs to be the best store of value, or the best medium of transaction.  This is a false dichotomy.  There are other things it can do, and even if it were only used for those two things, it wouldn't need to be the best at either of them to be successful.

Generally, wouldn't youink that the probability of a lock being broken is an increasing as a function of the ratio between the value of assets behind the lock and the cost of breaking the lock. This is what I am calling security. Please propose and defend a better metric.

As far as people mining at ass to defend the network. This is ridiculous. A charity vault is not where I would put my money.

A lock, sure.  But bitcoin is not a lock.  The metaphor is not the reality, it is an imaginary construct.   In reality, security is not provided by the block reward.  Security is provided by the network forcing an attacker to accumulate over 15 trillion hashes per second of computing power, and this is for a trivial attack of no consequence.  A meaningful attack would require several times that, and we can trivially extend the margin from a multiplier to an exponent if we ever want to.  The block reward provides an incentive, only.

As far as bitcoin not needing to be better than VISA. You are right it doesn't need to process VISA's volume of transactions. However the situation gets WORSE not better if you reduce txn volume. I agree that my assumptions were excessively optimistic.

This analysis is still based on a ton of assumptions.  Some of these assumptions have been shown to be false, and the rest are at best unproven

As far as propf of stake being inequitable, i dont care. It can duplicate bitcoin's functions at lower txn costs. Does anything else matter?

I never said that it was inequitable, I said that it was stupid.  Stake is meaningless.  Proving it is doubly meaningless.  Basing a system on a meaningless expression of meaninglessness is stupid.
3064  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin on CNBC on: July 22, 2011, 10:44:30 PM
http://www.cnbc.com/id/43823614/
3065  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin on CNBC on: July 22, 2011, 10:26:35 PM
A Howard Johnson hotel accepts bitcoins?  That was the biggest surprise in the article for me.  Anyone find a reference for it?
3066  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: long term investment value? on: July 22, 2011, 07:14:47 PM
Oh, I didn't mean to imply that.  I meant it in a more selfish way lol.  If more people mine then "the price" of coins doesn't go down, just the price as far as I'm concerned and I'm concerned about their dollar value compared to time, effort, electricity, and hardware.

They could be at 20 USD and then 4x more miners appear and it stays at 20 USD but now I make them at a 4x slower rate so it might as well be worth 5 USD to me.  So more miners sort of affect the price but don't actually affect the price.

Or perhaps I should say, they make mining worth less, not the currency itself.

You didn't read his post.  You are still thinking in terms of what mining does for you.  Read it again.

OP- you put waaaay to much emphasis on miners and their ability to affect price. Mining will become an increasingly small and specialized subset of the bitcoin economy. Bitcoin's value as an investment will depend purely on it's long term usefulness in trade.

Your personal decision to mine or to not mine is of no consequence to anyone but you.
3067  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [If tx limit is removed] Disturbingly low future difficulty equilibrium on: July 22, 2011, 07:04:18 PM
Assumption 1: The 1 MB txn limit is binding for some reason.

Security should be measured by the ratio of the reward per block to the money supply. Currently, "security" is about 50/7,000,000= 7.1 * 10^-6
If there are 21 million instead of 7 million BTC in the money supply, the block reward will need to triple to 150 in order to maintain security, i.e. 150/21,000,000 = 7.1 * 10^-6
1 MB maximum is equivalent to about 4000 transactions per block. In order for 4000 transactions to yield 150 BTC, you would need a per txn fee of 150/4000=0.0375. Currently, 0.0375 BTC is worth about USD$0.50. This seems alright, but it could not last. With growth in the demand for txns, BTC will appreciate, leading to a much larger txn fee. For example, right now I doubt that there are even 500 txn per block.
If the # of txns per block increases by eight fold or more to reach 4000, we should expect at least an eight-fold appreciation of BTC vs. USD.  This would increase the txn fee to USD$4.00.
Such a high txn fee would greatly undermine the usefulness of the technology.

Assumption 2: Assume the txn limit can be increased so as to maximize txn fee revenue. VISA processes about 1 million txn per 10 minutes (i.e. per block).  Suppose Bitcoin makes each block 250 MB and handles the same txn velocity as VISA. Then a 150 BTC per block reward can be maintained with a txn fee of 150 BTC per block / 1 million txn per block = 0.00015 BTC/txn. This doesn't sound sound like much until you think about how much BTC will be worth under this scenario. Particularly important is the ratio of BTC's market cap to its txn volume. The more money is hoarded, the more onerous the txn fees need to be to protect security. I consider two possible BTC valuation scenarios . They are designed to represent upper and lower bounds on BTC market cap.

Your assumptions are invalid.  I'm not talking about your stated assumptions, but your unstated ones.

First invalid unstated assumption:  The ratio of block reward to total BTC supply is meaningful.  You actually do state this assumption, but you do it in a way that makes it look like an established fact, and not the baseless assumption that it is.  Rather than give it a cute and emotionally charged name like security, I prefer to name this ratio cerulean.  Do you have any reasons to believe that anyone should care about this ratio?

Second invalid unstated assumption:  The current value of cerulean, or security as you may still prefer to call it, is the correct value, even though this value is an accident of time.  If you had written this post a day earlier, or even 10 minutes, or for that matter 10 minutes later, the value of the ratio would be different.  Not by much, if the interval is small, but by a lot if we get into months.  What was special about yesterday that make that day's value correct?  How did bitcoin even get this far, since a month ago, the ratio was different by 3%, and a whopping 38% a year ago?

Third invalid unstated assumption:  Bitcoin needs to be the best store of value, or the best medium of transaction.  This is a false dichotomy.  There are other things it can do, and even if it were only used for those two things, it wouldn't need to be the best at either of them to be successful.

I would keep going, but in your second scenario, your thoughts get very non-linear, and I can no longer follow you.  In particular, your sentence "This doesn't sound sound [sic] like much until you think about how much BTC will be worth under this scenario." could be replaced, with no loss of clarity, by "This doesn't sound like much until you think about a unicorn appearing right in front of you.".  I think that we are supposed to assume that the name of the unicorn value of bitcoins is so horrible, in some way, that you can't even speak of it.

Here are some things you should think about.

1)  Bitcoin does not need to replace VISA.  VISA does things that bitcoin cannot do, such as providing a way to roll back a transaction.  In a bitcoin future, VISA will still exist, and still do the same things it does today, just with one more currency.

2)  Even at $4.00, a bitcoin transaction is still far cheaper than several entire classes of financial transfers, like bank wire transfers.  These types of transfers currently do happen today in the real world, even though they cost at least an order of magnitude more than $4.00.

3)  Transaction fees do not cause security any more than ATM fees do.  People with an interest in the security of the system will continue to work on the chain, to at least some extent, even if the reward is zero.

4)  Proof-of-stake is still stupid.  I'm sorry that there is no nice way to say that.  I think that you start to go off the rails when you think of proof-of-work, which is also pretty stupid when looked at in positive terms.  If you think that proof-of-work as something that the network should reward you for, then nothing else in the system makes any sense.  What you need to do is think in terms of proving that someone else has to do an infeasible amount of work to roll back the clock.  We don't care about anything else, really.
3068  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A case AGAINST merging Namecoin and Bitcoin mining on: July 20, 2011, 06:04:00 AM
lol @ people not understanding how things work making arguments that don't make any sense.
Protip:
1) read the alternative chains wiki page
2) understand what a merkle branch is
3) understand (2) allows securing an arbitrarily large namecoin/blahcoin block by adding ~30 bytes to a bitcoin block. 
4) understand a single bitcoin tx is more than 80bytes
5) stop whining

The wiki page isn't very good.  Actually, were I in a less charitable mood, I'd say it sucks donkey balls. Took me several reads to "get" it, and that was only because I've read the forums extensively and was able to put the pieces together.

Summary:

Basically, they hide the namecoin block hash in the coinbase transaction of the bitcoin block, and if a hash is found for the bitcoin header that meets the namecoin difficulty standard, the namecoin chain can use the entire bitcoin header to extend the namecoin chain, even if the bitcoin difficulty target was not met.  It does not extend the header size, but it does extend the coinbase script field, which isn't a very big deal because it wasn't a fixed size to begin with.
3069  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Death to the mercenary miners! on: July 19, 2011, 07:12:46 PM
You've made the mistake of assuming the only "supply" of coins is miners.  That's not true.  The BULK of the supply is actually people who already own coins putting them up for sale.

I haven't made that assumption at all. I claim that without additional coins being mined and brought to market, supply would equal demand and price would be stable OR supply would be less than demand and prices would rise until supply did equal demand.

This is just a restatement of the notion of supply and demand.  We pretty much accept it as an axiom that prices will go higher, lower or sideways if supply is increased, decreased, or maintained, when demand is held constant.

Your real argument seems to be that some portion of the people selling bitcoins are doing so in error.  They would be better off, in your opinion, if they would only stop doing things than they think are right, in their opinion.

Be careful when thinking that you can make decisions better for everyone else than they can for themselves.  There are horrible things lurking down that road.

Quote
The 7200 coins per day are not a "significant" supply to the market. 

yes. yes they are. imagine an enclosed 5 gallon tank that is completely filled with water. Now add another pint of water. What do you think that does to the pressure? That's why small cap assets fluctuate so wildly.

Liquids don't really compress.  The pressure would be infinite unless the tank burst, and you don't need a pint for that, even just a drop will do.  Pedantic, I know, but this post got me in the mood.
3070  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Is Bitcoin going to change its inflation algorithm? on: July 19, 2011, 06:45:39 PM
You guys are really ridiculous. Does it matter if my proposal is also deflationary and offers better protection against inflationary risk than bitcoin?
Do  you need to make an argument to show that it is inflationary or is it sufficient to just state this?

Okay answer to the above is clear. Should I take that to mean that you can't find a flaw in the proposal? I would really prefer constructive criticism to ad hominem attacks. Would love to make my idea better but need help from people willing and able to exercise their brains.

I can see one flaw.  It is pointless.

I know you aren't looking for more ad hominem arguments, so I won't say that the whole proof-of-stake concept is stupid, but I will say that you are suggesting massive changes, making the system vastly more complicated than it is already, and threatening pretty much all of the key features that everyone (nearly everyone) likes about the current system.

And for essentially no real gain that I can see.  The only gain I can see is to you personally.  Not that I think you stand to profit from the new system necessarily, but personally in the sense that you seem to have a subjective preference for this convoluted and ridiculous system over the simple one that we already have.  And I mean ridiculous as a mere statement of fact that it has been ridiculed, not as a value judgment.
3071  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: bitcoind (0.3.24) can't be stopped on: July 19, 2011, 05:34:46 PM
Hmm.  And I was thinking that this was going to be an off-topic bitcoin cheerleading thread.
3072  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: LinuxCoin A lightweight Debian based OS with everything ready to go. on: July 13, 2011, 11:16:21 AM
echo $DISPLAY: the system print an empty line
DISPLAY=:0 aticonfig --odgt--adapter=all: -bash: DISPLAY:0: command not found

anyhelp, pleases



You can't echo $DISPLAY from a SSH session, you have to do it from inside the GUI.
3073  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: LinuxCoin A lightweight Debian based OS with everything ready to go. on: July 12, 2011, 05:23:05 PM
Hi,

After I ssh or vnc to my linuxcoin rig, I run aticonfig --odgt --adapter=all or any aticonfig command, the system say:

No protocol specified
ERROR - X needs to be running to perform ATI Overdrive(TM) commands

Can anyone help me?

You can try setting your DISPLAY environment variable.  You can check it by starting a terminal in the GUI and running
Code:
echo $DISPLAY
My scripts write it into a file for use in non-GUI stuff.
3074  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Steps to translate blockheader to current block hash. on: July 11, 2011, 08:46:52 PM
Yeah, don't use base_convert().  Big red warning on the man page.

Try hex2bin() instead.
3075  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Single address accounts on: July 11, 2011, 08:42:46 PM
the client can often force a DH key-agreement to happen. it requires the server to sign with the private key.

Reference?
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5246.txt

p. 91-92
F.1.1.3.  Diffie-Hellman Key Exchange with Authentication

Quote
When Diffie-Hellman key exchange is used, the server can either
supply a certificate containing fixed Diffie-Hellman parameters or
use the server key exchange message to send a set of temporary
Diffie-Hellman parameters signed with a DSA or RSA certificate.

also every certificate is signed by an CA.

I stand corrected.  SSL implementations that ignore all the SHOULDs and warnings in that section do actually have the option to use their private keys directly.
3076  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Single address accounts on: July 11, 2011, 08:07:41 PM
the client can often force a DH key-agreement to happen. it requires the server to sign with the private key.

Reference?
3077  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Single address accounts on: July 11, 2011, 07:31:29 PM
How about this then: In SSL, the server's private key is not used for encryption, nor for hashing, nor for any other operation, cryptographic or otherwise, of anything that is released to any other party.
LOL! TROLL!

then what is it used for, please enlighten us with your superior knowledge.

Already answered in the post just above yours.
3078  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: What EXACTLY means "longest" chain ? on: July 11, 2011, 07:28:30 PM
I don't like the idea that 95% of the network can be on a particular chain and one node produces a new block and has a 50% chance of forcing the network to switch.

That can also happen with the fork case.  The 5% fork might win, and the 95% will have to reorganise.

But only if the minority block is transmitted within seconds of the majority block.  In your system, the reversal can happen several minutes later, and it can cause a reorg of not just 95% of the network, but 100% (minus the attacker's mining node).
3079  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Single address accounts on: July 11, 2011, 07:25:06 PM
on a busy SSL server, things gets signed and encrypted, 1000 times per second. with the same 1024/2048 bit key. they are not broken (yet).

Dude.  SSL never encrypts anything with the server's private key.  Never.
partly true.

but it is used(to sign) in the key-exchange protocol, to prevent a 3. party for modifying the protocol messages.

No, it isn't.  In SSL, the client encrypts the premaster secret (a number used to derive the symmetric session key) using the server's public key.  The server decrypts it using the private key.  At no time does the server ever emit anything directly derived from its private key.

SSL uses symmetric encryption for the payload.  PKC is only used to securely exchange that session key, and the entire exchange protocol was designed to protect the server's private key from re-use.
3080  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Single address accounts on: July 11, 2011, 07:15:17 PM
on a busy SSL server, things gets signed and encrypted, 1000 times per second. with the same 1024/2048 bit key. they are not broken (yet).

Dude.  SSL never encrypts anything with the server's private key.  Never.

Dude. Bitcoin never encrypts anything with the user's private key. Never.

Like the signature?  Are you going to quibble that the ECDSA step isn't technically an encryption because it can't be reversed?

How about this then: In SSL, the server's private key is not used for encryption, nor for hashing, nor for any other operation, cryptographic or otherwise, of anything that is released to any other party.
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