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2481  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: TradeHill - suspension of US wire deposits / withdrawals on: January 05, 2012, 10:55:52 PM
Banks existed long before fiat currency and fractional reserve.  They will survive their downfall too.

They won't be happy with it, but when the scenario starts looking like "change or die", I fully expect many of them to change.  And I don't think they can prevent the rise of bitcoin, only delay it.
2482  Economy / Speculation / Re: Ask depth dwindling on: January 05, 2012, 09:54:37 PM
We've been with 5 cents of $6.20 for most of the day, and it looks like it is finally starting to wander up.  Could be the start of the breakout, or it could just be a small move up by 10 or 15 cents.
2483  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: FPGA mining for fun and profit on: January 05, 2012, 05:26:50 PM
Currently, the Xilinx Spartan 6 LX-150 is the most common FPGA used for bitcoin mining.  GITHUB has an open source FPGA Miner for this chip, and ztex.de does as well.

Unfortunately, you won't be making a PCB for the LX-150 on a mill.  It's a 484 pin BGA.  It pretty much demands a MINIMUM 4 layer PCB because of the split power needs (3.3V and 1.2V) and ground.

Enigma
Thanks for the heads up, I was just curious as to the process and what not my background is Comp Sci, not so much Comp/Electrical Eng so I don't know much about FPGA's.

I hope that at some point in 2012, I can come back and reread this post and understand what all of these words/letters/numbers mean, haha.

Would a glossary help?

Xilinx is a chip maker.  Spartan 6 is a line of FPGA chips.  LX-150 is a model in that line.

FPGA means Field Programmable Gate Array.  It is a chip with a large number of generic logic gates and programmable interconnections.  This means that it can be configured and reconfigured to do different tasks as needed.  Think of it as a CPU that can be optimized for a particular job.  That's a bit of a simplification, but I think it gives you the idea. 

Github is a public source code repository.  Someone has posted source code that can be loaded into a LX-150 FPGA chip to configure it as a miner.  ztex.de also hosts similar software.

PCB is a printed circuit board, the flat board that electronic components are usually attached to.  Most of them are green.  The board itself is usually a composite insulator material with sheets of copper bonded on the flat sides and then partially removed to leave different connections and circuits.  Commercial boards are etched with acid, but a variety of methods are used for prototyping and home production.  Milling when a rotary tool is used to mechanically cut out portions of the copper layer, usually using a computer controlled machine (a CNC mill, but that's just another acronym to define).  Connections between the sides are done by drilling the board and connecting the copper traces on both sides.  In commercial boards, interconnects are electroplated chemically using processes that aren't generally possible at home, so homemade boards usually use pieces of wire soldered on both sides.

Boards with more than two layers can be made by stacking single sided boards onto a dual layer board so that you end up with alternating layers of copper and insulator.  In commercial boards, the interconnect holes are plated as each layer is added, so it is possible to connect any layer to any other layer.  This is nearly impossible on homemade boards, which is unfortunate because you really need those internal connections (called "blind vias") when working with BGA chips.

BGA means Ball Grid Array.  It means that the chip's pins are all on the bottom, and not along the sides.  The chip is manufactured with a square grid of solder balls on the bottom of the chip, and it is placed onto a PCB with a matching square grid of copper pads and the assembly is heated in an oven until the solder melts and connects the board to the chip.  Because the grid has hundreds of balls (484 in this case) with very tight spacing, there is no room for all of the traces to leave the area on the surface, so they must be connected to internal layers in the board stack and routed out.  Even doing it with 4 layers is rough, 6 is way better.
2484  Economy / Speculation / Re: $5.5 today!? on: January 04, 2012, 07:45:57 PM


in a nutshell, every country will take turns devaluing their currency to try and keep exports alive.  aka printing.


Cypherdoc is absolutely right about that... here's hedge fund badass Kyle Bass on this topic:

http://dont-tread-on.me/?p=11919

yes, i admire Kyle Bass.

whats interesting about the devaluation strategy is that while the central banks try to keep everyone elses currency stable, the ONE currency that can keep going down w/o imploding the economy is the USD.

and its b/c we indeed are the strongest economy in the world; forget China.

so, I THINK, the USD will continue its long term downtrend thus boosting everyone else in the meantime.  we've seen this for 100 years.

Bitcoin anyone?

Isn't international finance fun?  I've long been of the opinion that the rest of the world should be lined up around the block to suck our dicks as a thank you for picking the painful side of Triffen's Dilemma and keeping the world afloat.  Everyone loves to party, but they hate to clean up.
2485  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: [proposal] [Stratum] Overlay network protocol over Bitcoin on: January 04, 2012, 07:42:27 PM
But I agree that some mechanism for negotiating required fees with miners would be interesting, too.
It may be interesting from the anthropological point-of-view: who's gonna fall for it. Technically the negotiation for inclusion in a block doesn't make sense: the blocks are won randomly. I guess from the game-theoretical point-of-view one could come up with an optimal strategy: clairvoyance.

I think the quote would be along the lines of: "We have averaged X blocks per day over the last week.  We expect our next block to happen within Y hours.  If you get your transaction to us in the next M minutes and it includes a fee of at least Z, we will include it in our next block (which should happen within 2*Y hours).  To ensure that your transaction reaches us, please submit it directly to our node at address A.B.C.D, port E."

The quote doesn't promise that the miner is going to get the next block, they are only promising that if they do get the next block, your transaction will be in it, provided that the fee meets their criteria.

In a busy world, I would expect that the biggest miners (the ones that average like one block per hour or more) will start ignoring low fee transactions, while the smaller miners would accept a lot more.  A spender could check with a bunch of miners and make the time/fee trade off that they want.

Deepbit wants 0.01 BTC to include it in the next 30 minutes, but Joe's Mining Pool and Bait Shop will do it for 0.001 BTC in the next day.  What is more important to you, time or money?
2486  Economy / Economics / Re: The early-adoptor unfairness on: January 04, 2012, 07:13:49 PM
The point of view of the "anti- early adopter" crowd, which I consider myself part of, is severely misrepresented.

What I don't say: "Hey, bitcoins are such a fabulous invention and they are concentrated in the hands of a few people - so when bitcoins make it big time it will be so unfair to the rest of us who did not get it at those low prices... We need communism, redistribution !"

What I do say: "Bitcoins are a flawed monetary medium because the early adopter crowd has already priced-in the chance that they will sometime be a widely used for exchange; so in order for Bitcoin to achieve it's potential as an exchange medium, an implausibly massive transfer of wealth must occur from the millions of people that would use it to the hundreds of people that currently hold it."

The unfairness is not yet realized, it's a potential unfairness that will materialize if and when bitcoins become widely used. At that point the early adopters would be able to exchange their bits for huge real-world assets without tanking the market, and that would be quite unfair - they have contributed nothing of substance to our society, with the exception of a few individuals like Satoshi or Gavin.

In fact this potential for unfairness is precisely one of the reasons bitcoin fails. It's a self-defeating prophecy: bitcoins are valuable only in as much as they can be widely used as an exchange medium, yet all those who acquire or have them treat them as a long term investment, preventing their very spread which would enable bitcoins to fulfill their promise. Therefore the promise is a lie.

In actuality, bitcoins are simply a zero-sum speculative commodity and there's nothing unfair in taking money away from fat geeks. So there's no "early adopter unfairness" to speak of - with the exception of the inherent unfairness of arriving late at a Ponzi party.

Quote
If I create two finely-crafted wooden chairs, then I am the only person possessing these chairs. How unfair!  NOT.

If you claim those are the only chairs the world needs, and that sometime in the future millions of people will give an arm and a leg for a few seconds on your chair, then there's nothing unfair about it, you are simply delusional. Yet that is the exact mantra of the Bitcoin people, with the nuance of "indefinitely divisible chairs".

Meh.  Your reasons are just as wrong as the reasons propping up your strawman.  You are ignoring the parts of the world that don't agree with your premise.

You say that the we "have contributed nothing of substance", but only because you don't understand the substance of what we are contributing.

How about you think really hard about what the early adopters are actually doing, and how it is valuable to the bitcoin community and also to the entire rest of the world.  After that, we can talk about how substantial our contributions are or are not.
2487  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: [proposal] [Stratum] Overlay network protocol over Bitcoin on: January 04, 2012, 06:52:34 PM
I don't think an algorithm is going to cut it for fees, at least not in the long run.  In the long run, miners will need to provide quotes.
2488  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: How to treat Bitcoin mining income for tax purposes? on: January 04, 2012, 12:19:30 PM
I keep waiting for someone to post an actual official decision letter from the IRS.

I wouldn't hold my breath too long waiting for this. A specific decision on bitcoin would give greater legitimacy to bitcoin and the US govt does not want to do that. They would prefer to diminish its credibility.

Meh.  I don't think the government really knows about or cares about bitcoin, at least not in any official way.  And the IRS doesn't care if you slice up babies for lunch meat as long as you pay taxes on the income, so quite likely the IRS is actually the part of the government most likely to embrace bitcoins, or at least taxes paid in dollars for bitcoin-based income.
2489  Economy / Economics / Re: Specifically, how would Somali ex-pats send money to relatives using bitcoins? on: January 04, 2012, 12:15:20 PM
If US FRN's are traded in Somalia as well as local currency, the simplist near-term solution is a wad of cash in a UPS International document envelope.  However, this still isn't a particularly cost effective solution for individuals.  The early advantage of using Bitcoin as the medium is that the exchangers on the Somali side will be incentivised to arrange for the shipment of the physical cash.  Considering that Somalia doesn't have any foreign trade to speak of, eventually any imbalance of cash transfers is going to have to result in the physical movement of either cash or goods.

Unless the dollar is inflating at a pretty heavy rate against goods inside of Somalia, there is already an outflow.

Likely, and that is a problem.  An outflow of foriegn cash implies a trade inbalance, and one not favorable to the use of bitcoin as a value transfer mechanism unless it can help tp remedy that outflow.

Actually, it is a good thing.  It means that there is at least one entity willing to trade value inside of Somalia for dollars outside of Somalia.  And since bitcoins can be thought of as "dollars outside of Somalia" thanks to the exchanges that literally convert them into dollars, bitcoins can flow through as soon as one of the outflowing entities starts accepting them.
2490  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: How to treat Bitcoin mining income for tax purposes? on: January 03, 2012, 04:58:28 PM
I keep waiting for someone to post an actual official decision letter from the IRS.
That would certainly be nice; I'm not sure the IRS has published anything specifically on bitcoin yet. Perhaps @lonelyminer can dig up something specific.

I assume that we'll all know about it when it happens.  I don't expect the IRS to do anything until either they audit someone that happens to be a trader or a miner, or a trader or a miner specifically asks them for a written ruling.  Either way, it will very likely be a member of the community, and they'd let us know.
2491  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: How to treat Bitcoin mining income for tax purposes? on: January 03, 2012, 06:49:34 AM
I keep waiting for someone to post an actual official decision letter from the IRS.
2492  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: chain vs tree on: January 03, 2012, 06:48:29 AM
Sounds like a lot of work for not much gain.  Also, it reduces security unless nodes make more connections.  That means it costs us something that is already scarce (sockets) for something that isn't even remotely scarce yet (disk space to store the 875 MB block chain).

When bitcoin gets really big, I can see entities using something like this for their own internal clusters, maybe.
2493  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Solo Mining on: January 03, 2012, 06:38:14 AM
Check your CPU usage.  You can tell.

Or are you running GPU miners connecting to a node, and want to see if the node is actually doing anything with the returned work?  If so, check your debug.log.  I'm not positive, but I think that you should get some indication there.
2494  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Offline mining? on: January 03, 2012, 06:36:01 AM
*takes his rabbies shot and offers Plastic.Elastic a hug*

Helping him to steal isnt exactly how you should show your intelligence. If he must ask these questions he sure doesnt know jack and will be caught easily.

Although I have not devoted a whole lot of thought to 'how is this person accessing 2TH worth of computing power', it seems atleast somewhat 'legit'. I would sure hope he is not stealing anything. Some basic things that lead me to believe it are that he will need physical access for any of my suggestions. His concern of limiting the Internet exposure of the machines is more in line with needing to be able to ensure the security of them more so than to 'hide'. I mean, any network admin on the planet would notice the usage...

If he must ask, he may not be ready for such a project but 'being caught' implies doing something wrong to begin with. Otherwise such an ambitous project is good in excercise to learn from if nothing else.

Whether you are just being antagonistic with implying I am being helpful to show my intelligence, I do not know. But my IQ is really quite low as far as I can tell.

And if it is real, then in the grand scheme of things another ~2TH only goes to further strengthen the network as a whole. That being my main motivator beyond just being helpful, if only mildly helpful.

cheers

Your assumption about ensuring the security of the machines is correct.  You could say I'm trying to hide the machines from others who might wish to steal.

And yes, I hope to learn a lot from this whether I succeed or fail.

Interesting.  Going to watch this thread.

By my estimation, 2 THash/sec is about 5000 moderately high end GPUs, or several times that number of GPUs if they are the sort that normally end up in supercomputers, and needs a large fraction of a megawatt of power (at least).  It is also larger than most pools.
2495  Economy / Trading Discussion / Re: Bought fake Insluin, hope someone has some info on the guy. on: January 03, 2012, 06:12:18 AM
Yeah, agreed on the police thing.  They might even treat it as attempted murder (but then probably deal it down).

I'm not familiar with insulin packaging.  Did it look legit?  Are there normally any tamper seals or anti-counterfeiting measures?
2496  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin Bubble 2012 on: January 03, 2012, 06:05:40 AM
My chart shows that a relationship exists.  I claim that price is one variable that feeds forward into difficulty, not that it's a simple linear relationship.  I do not claim it's an eternal principle.  Quit trying to spin it like I am.

Except that you are wrong; your chart shows the exact opposite.  Do you see the huge area between the red and blue lines to the right?  It tells you that the correlation is very low.  Actually, worse than that, it tells you that the amount of correlation actually gets worse as one of the variables changes.  Price seems to lead difficulty when difficulty is low but appears almost totally unrelated when difficulty is high.  Do you see it?  You've found an indicator that predicts nothing more than its own invalidity.

And you're entirely missing the point.  Here's what started this whole thing:

Try computing the value using difficulty as one of the variables.  Prices at the moon are only justified if difficulty follows.  When it doesn't, there are spikes in the price:difficulty ratio, and it stays grounded at realistic prices.

bitcoinBull thinks I should be using difficulty to compute price.

And I'm asking why he thinks it should be.

Well, obviously, he's wrong too.   Wink

He's wrong because he forgot the first law of technical analysis:  Your perfect indicator becomes useless as soon as you explain it to someone else.  He was using difficulty as a heuristic to figure out if market moves were "legit" or not.  Actually, that indicator was crap from the start, but the joke was still funny.  If you look at your chart, you can see that this heuristic would have signaled "buy" all the way down from $30+ to $6.

Oh, here's a fun one.  Try to look at your chart and predict what the price will be when (or before) the difficulty passes the previous peak.  Will it be like $8 or $10, just enough to make rigs operationally viable with even relatively expensive power costs (ignoring capital costs)?  Or will it be closer to $30, the price that (maybe sorta) sparked the massive capital investment that allowed the difficulty to attain the previous peak the first time?  Or will it be more like $50 or $100 or beyond, high enough to make the last bubble seem tiny and pathetic and convince everyone's grandmother that she needs to get in on this too?

I would be really nervous about making that prediction, because the two charts show a spike and an almost square digital 0 -> 1 transition.  With the right scaling factors, those two will always look like the early one caused the late one, and the price spike almost certainly really did cause the difficulty jump.  But what happens next?  Was difficulty primed before, like supercritical water, just waiting for a nucleation site to boil over, but now spent?  Or is mining primed now, with the people that missed the first bubble now waiting for the ROI to get short enough to buy their own rigs?  Or is it something else?

Try not to take this so seriously man.  I wasn't trying to be insulting, I just don't think that you know the things that you think you know, or at the very least, you don't know the things you do know for the reasons you think you know them.  I grew up on fractals.  Check out the chaos that emerges from the incredibly simple Lotka-Voltera equations, and shudder at what equations you'd need to really model the financial, technical and psychological properties of bitcoin.
2497  Economy / Economics / Re: Specifically, how would Somali ex-pats send money to relatives using bitcoins? on: January 02, 2012, 11:38:58 PM
If US FRN's are traded in Somalia as well as local currency, the simplist near-term solution is a wad of cash in a UPS International document envelope.  However, this still isn't a particularly cost effective solution for individuals.  The early advantage of using Bitcoin as the medium is that the exchangers on the Somali side will be incentivised to arrange for the shipment of the physical cash.  Considering that Somalia doesn't have any foreign trade to speak of, eventually any imbalance of cash transfers is going to have to result in the physical movement of either cash or goods.

Unless the dollar is inflating at a pretty heavy rate against goods inside of Somalia, there is already an outflow.
2498  Economy / Speculation / Re: $5.5 today!? on: January 02, 2012, 01:54:10 PM
If only some international standards organization existed that could help us come up with an unambiguous date format...
2499  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin Bubble 2012 on: January 02, 2012, 01:44:48 PM
Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

I do understand the fallacy.  Correlation != causation.  I've said it in great frustration many times.  But now I feel like I've fallen into a bizarre alternate reality where that message got repeated too often, and everyone has now concluded: "... and therefore, causality does not exist."

Quote
Quote
Different individuals value the same things in a different way, and valuations change with the same individuals with changing conditions. . . .The impracticability of measurement is not due to the lack of technical methods for the establishment of measure. It is due to the absence of constant relations.

We are talking about economics with human action and not physics. But I will concede that despite the complexities and unknowables we can know something and from that something derive tendencies.

I agree with everything you just said there.  I absolutely agree that the relationships are not constant.  But working within your concession, and with a year of good data that coarsely supports the theory, I think it's fair to postulate ergo propter hoc, and that I'm not running afoul of a fallacy in doing so.

Your graph clearly does not show the relationship that you are claiming.  Difficulty does not equal price times a factor, even with a delay.  It doesn't even equal price times a polynomial.

You need a more complex model.  There are more than two quantities, and the connections between them aren't linear.  For one thing, the amount of mining that happens is correlated to the value that miners see in bitcoin, which is only weakly related to the price.

The simple model has no predictive power.  The price has just gone from $2 to $5 for the second time ever.  Look closely at your chart and ask it what the difficulty is going to be, and when.  Is it going to triple in a few weeks?  Or is it going to increase by a hundred thousand or so?  Seven months ago, tripling and increasing by about 100,000 were the same thing.  This time, they are not.  And look at November and December, the price and difficulty seem to be decreasing and then increasing, but this time together.  What happened to the lag?

An increase in price can cause an increase in difficulty, but it is far from clear that it will always.  Like ol' Ludwig said, your graph shows a unique historical fact, not an eternal principle.
2500  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin Bubble 2012 on: January 02, 2012, 04:58:06 AM
Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

You both seem to be off in the weeds arguing a logical fallacy concerning correlation and causation.

Ludwig von Mises:

Quote
There are, in the field of economics, no constant relations, and consequently no measurement is possible. If a statistician determines that a rise of 10 percent in the supply of potatoes in Atlantis at a definite time was followed by a fall of 8 percent in the price, he does not establish anything about what happened or may happen with a change in the supply of potatoes in another country or in another time. He has not "measured" the "elasticity of demand" of potatoes. He has established a unique individual historical fact. No intelligent man can doubt that the behavior of men with regard to potatoes and every other commodity is variable. Different individuals value the same things in a different way, and valuations change with the same individuals with changing conditions. . . .The impracticability of measurement is not due to the lack of technical methods for the establishment of measure. It is due to the absence of constant relations.

This should be tattooed on the hand of any person that is about to speak authoritatively about economics.  Teachers, TV news fodder, drunks in bars, internet idiots, etc.
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